Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:27 AM

---Yes, MtheGM, if it makes you happy to win points in meaningless discussion, then I agree with your every point. You are the epitome of all things holy and the sun shines out of your arse.---

Ever-gracious in defeat, Dave the Gnome, isn't he just!!!!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:52 AM

In South Korea (according to my research), they still have corporal punishment in schools, but I don't know about it as a criminal penalty. Better research that.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:49 AM

I live in Australia. I was born in Australia in the 1990s, as was my younger brother. My parents are both from Malaysia, born and raised there. I have relatives in Singapore. I believe the Singaporean punishment for drug traffickers is too harsh, especially since as you said, sometimes the blood runs down to the floor.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:43 AM

Morwen: Do you live in the part of E Asia I mentioned above (in reply to a point you made about the reported survival of corporal punishment in some places) where punishments of up to 24 strokes with a heavy 4-ft cane are still given, often in addition to a prison sentence, to rapists or other violent criminals? If so, what do you think about that?

FAO Dave: I would add to this question, addressed to Dave, that I am not sure that I would advocate return of the cat; but if anyone recommended the re-use of the (probably a bit less severe) birch for hoodies who mug old ladies I should not lose any sleep over the prospect of some of the yobbos getting it. Where that leaves me in the 'arsehole' stakes is a matter for your consideration, not mine.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:42 AM

Yes, MtheGM, if it makes you happy to win points in meaningless discussion, then I agree with your every point. You are the epitome of all things holy and the sun shines out of your arse.

My care in the community done for the day. I'm out of here.

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:25 AM

This would, if true, of course make the idea that he would never mention any children he had more plausible. As I said above, illegitimacy was a stigma in all communities (I believe) until quite recently.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:12 AM

Morwen: My understanding of the culture concerned is that this was fairly common practice in W Indian communities: from which comes the term "my baby-father" which I have heard that many W Indian women use to refer to their absent or casual partners. But this is from hearsay only, and I would not set myself up as having enough direct knowledge to "think" anything specific "about it".

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:00 AM

MtheGM, what do you think about the fact that apparently some calypsonians fathered illegitimate children? According to my research, he seems to have been the typical man in his situation i.e. apparently some calypsonians lived off the money given to them by women. He wrote quite a few songs about his (numerous) love affairs. I have also read a book mentioning the role that some calypsonians "did not acknowledge their role in the pre-World War Ii exploitation of women'.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 12:52 AM

Thank you, Morwen. I think that answers your son's point and supports my rejoinder to it ~~ agreed, Dave?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 12:49 AM

I believe it to be a problem because some people (those not familiar with the historical context) might believe that I advocate corporal punishment for delinquents. My meaning throughout this thread is that I believe Lord Invader was attempting to draw attention to the problems i.e. racial violence, faced by West Indian immigrants to England such as himself as well as suggest a quick and efficient way of dealing with the threat of teenage street violence: "The judge and the Juries can settle this thing easily".

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 12:44 AM

... tho would reiterate that she has mentioned the Notting Hill Riots, and activities of Teds in general, more than once, which seems to me to answer your son's point as rubricated in your post to which I was replying in my "thruout" post, Dave. Would you seriously disagree with that?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 12:40 AM

Dave 15 May 6.22 pm~ your 'such punishment' ref'd back to Al's simple advocation of'corporal punishment' as qualificatn 4 arsehole. You did not specify flogging with the cat as in Invader's calypso.

"Some people" right back 2U...

Interested in your other ?, re Morwen's precise meaning thruout, which she does not appear to me yet to have answered.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 11:15 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 08:05 PM

Then again, would *anyone* with illegitimate children in that time period really mention it, even if they were male? Not saying that Invader had them, just saying that if he did, it would most likely not be something that he talked about. And again, not writing about your family doesn't mean that you don't have one, it just means you don't like to write about personal things.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:51 PM

Sorry , I should have said "I think there might be problems because"

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:38 PM

I think it might be wrong because of the fact that not everyone os going to get the message; that it is a song specific to a particular time period.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:36 PM

I remember once reading a book on calypso (on Google Books) which mentioned that many old-time calypsonians fathered illegitimate children but did not take much responsibility for them. None of the biographies of Invader mention any descendants, so (It is probably safe to assume) it is highly unlikely he had children. True, if he was one of "those" calypsonians with illegitimate children- and most of the singer-songwriters I've heard include at least one reference to their children in their songs- he mightn't mention it.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:28 PM

Oh, and as to 'that is the point Morwen has been making thuout(sic)'.

I think we must be discussing different threads. I thought Morwen has been asking from the word go if it is acceptable to sing the song. But I will accept I could be wrong. Let's ask.

Morwen - Is the point you have been making all along that Lord Invader was bringing the plight of the down-trodden West Indian to the attention of the British public? If so, why do you think it even may be wrong to sing it

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:22 PM

From MtheGM

Now, Dave & Alan; kindly point out your rationale in accusing me of arseholeness ~ or should that be arseholility?

in response to my

Anyone who advocates such punishment is indeed an areshole.

Why even ask, MtheGM? Opinions need no explanation. I believe that anyone who advocates the flogging of people in the way the song describes is an arsehole. Not a particularly difficult, new or uncommon belief, I understand. I don't see you advoctaing that people should be flogged with a cat of nine tails though - So why do you think I am accusing you of being an arsehole?

Some people...

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:41 PM

yeah, it is. Anyway, as I said above, I'd have been talking about that fact for a long time until I got a lecture along the lines of: "Why are you listening to that song? I didn't write it for kids!" :). ha ha ha!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 08:09 AM

That song, Rum & Coca Cola, is really something to be proud of too. I had it in my childhood on an old Andrews Sisters 78 record from the 40s, as flipside to One Meat Ball.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 07:21 AM

MtheGM, in the case of someone like Lord Invader, who is relatively obscure, i.e not someone the general public will have heard of, the only people who would write a Wkipedia article about someone like that are people who are relative "experts" , such as people who are from the same country as the subject. As I said a few posts above, I am of East Asian (Chinese) heritage and my parents sometimes threatened me with a cane when I misbehaved. You're right though, it doesn't make any difference to my love for them. My comment about hating Lord Invader if he had been my father was a joke. But I am sure he would have been a strict parent. And I'll add something else; if he'd been my father, I might've gone on for days about "Hey guys, my dad wrote "Rum and Coca-Cola" and is a really famous singer back home! (Trinidad)"
:).

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 15 May 11 - 07:14 AM

According to V S Naipaul (I think in The Overcrowded Barracoon) there is a deep tradition in the West Indies (Trinidad in his experience) of fatherhood as often both neglectful and violent. He points out the word used for physical chastisement - bless - had (in the 50s) acquired a respectability from the English root of the word and Biblical attitudes to punishment, but is in fact derived from the French word blesser- to wound.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 07:02 AM

Morwen: Wiki entry on Lord Invader doesn't say much of his personal life, so don't know if he had any children in fact. But if he had, I am sure he would have loved them and they him, even if he had occasionally used a strap on them [which he might just have been saying anyhow for the effect of his song!]. I gather that you have been fortunate enough not to have experienced any such; but if you had I am sure it would not have made any difference to your love for your parents. It didn't in the days when it was a normal expectation. I know my own grandfather kept a 'cat' at home to threaten my Uncle David, who, my mother told me, was a very naughty boy; tho Grandpa was in general too indulgent actually to use it. Uncle Dave grew up to be the richest of the eight brothers and sisters of whom he & my mother were two!

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:39 AM

... and i don't accept that that confers 'arsehole' status on me!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:36 AM

... and another point I made in another thread [or maybe it was earlier in this one?] re the famous naval mutinies in late C18 at Spithead and The Nore. I pasted a bit from Wiki pointing out that they were less real *mutinies* than what we would now regard as *strikes* against certain aspects of the conditions of the service at the time: and I added that it was significant that the use of flogging of crews and caning of midshipmen & ships' boys did not form any sort of issue, being apparently accepted as just a sort of natural nautical phenomenon by the seamen of the time!

So most school pupils until 20-odd years ago. Since when, many will consider school discipline to have deteriorated and teaching to have become an unattractive profession to many, like my friends' daughter. Whether post hoc ergo propter hoc {'cause & effect'}, or whether both phenomena are factors of other underlying societal shifts may be a matter for dispute; but it will be obvious what my opinion is.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:23 AM

Genuinely not that much disgreement between us Al; though our mileages clearly vary to an extent.

On the matter of 'violence' which you raised: I OPd a thread a while back on punishment as a concept. IMO all punishment is to an extent violent, by definition, because, by its nature, it consists of forcible imposition by the 'awarding' authority on the recipient of an experience he would have preferred not to undergo: otherwise it just isn't a punishment. School pupils are not generally stupid: they know the difference between bullying a younger or weaker pupil and receiving an organised and reasonably moderate physical punishment as a consequence; and would never regard the latter as any sort of justification for the former.

In the same way your father, as I perceive it, clearly recognised the difference between reasonable restraint of a violent criminal and the sort of abuse to which occasional black sheep amongst the constabulary are unfortunately prone.

Orwell was a brilliant man in his way, but a bit of an upper-class dropout & do-gooder. I would not personally accept all his views as indisputable.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:58 AM

Well I remember thinking at the time - this is a bit like that Shhoting an Elephant essay by Orwell. As you say - we were both expected to act in this way, and there was actually very little room for manoeuvre. Once you had stood up and said that you would accept the job - that's what you had to do. orwell said it was the situation of the British in India. Apparently powerful - but with few choices about how to proceed.

my Dad was a cop. I asked him about the stuff he had to do. He had been at the liberation of the camps - he said - don't you worry, I know there are limits. they ask to go over them - I'll tell them to stuff their job.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:39 AM

Not entirely in disagreement with you, Al: just feel two sides to every 'arsehole' allegation. I agree re Xtian Bros' gross & notorious overuse; but think in turn of my clergy friend's nice young daughter's feelings of let-down when nothing adequate done to the yobbo who abused her! Remember, you got that slipper to reinforce your own discipline; whereas, as Head of Upper School, my job was to provide support for the likes of that young woman, & it was essential for any young teacher put in her invidious situation to feel that something adequate had been done to express her, and the school community's as a whole [including most parents'], outrage with her abuser. I generally had parental support in such a case.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:12 AM

Well three points, just off the top of my head. I haven't campaigned for my beliefs on this issue or anything like that.

1) It was abused dreadfully by many members of the teaching profession - my cousin's treatment by some rotten little bastard in a dog collar, I've already talked about. it was an abuser's charter - used as a means of facilitating sexual abuse also. have you read roald dahl's Boy - I think that book somewhat understaed the case. I just know too many gentle decent people who were abused.

2) It was a bad example to kids - it said tothem - you can sort out your problems with violence. Not your turn yet - wait your turn and you'll be able to get away with this.

3) It stopped working. I started teaching in Brum in 1971. I was a lousy teacher - no real idea how to connect with the kids I was teaching in a tough boys sec mod. (Three of the old boys had actually been hanged) Anyway i got pressured into getting a slipper and using it, mainly to cover up my own inadequacy, looking back.

The kids were refusing to accept it. they knew their parents would back them to the hilt. Society had just moved on. And not before time.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:11 AM

MtheGM, I'm thinking that I'd have hated to be Lord Invader's (hypothetical) child. (In Trinidadian accent) "You say that to me one more time, you get the belt!" :).

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 04:05 AM

Anyone who advocates corporal punishment is an asshole - regardless of colour, race, or creed - black, brown, pink, aubergine ....arseholes the lot of them. Guest alan w 12 may

agree with one thing, Alan - Anyone who advocates such punishment is indeed an areshole. Dave the Gnome 13 May
=====
May we, first of all, have a consistent spelling of the organ in question please Alan?

A promising teacher was lost to our school system recently. The daughter of a clergyman friend had opted for Diploma in Education at Cambridge at conclusion of her degree. She jacked it in on being called a "fucking stipid old cunt" by a pupil, against whom no action beyond a mild reproof was subsequently taken, during her first teaching practice. I assured my reverend friend, who appreciated the information, that, when I had been Head of Upper School some years before, prior to abolition of corpun by some governmental well-meaners who knew Sweet Fanny Adams about teaching or children, my pupils did not so address their teachers because they knew what the consequences to their bodily comfort would have been liable to be.

Now, Dave & Alan; kindly point out your rationale in accusing me of arseholeness ~ or should that be arseholility?

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 03:18 AM

Morwen: FYI re note above on schools: particularly so in sub-Saharan African countries. I lived for a while in Sierra Leone in the 1990s, where my wife had a year's lectureship at Freetown Univ. We had some neighbours who were diplomats at US Embassy, so their children had to go to local school; where the usual punishment for misdemeanours was for the offending pupil {boy or girl} to be sent to cut a switch for his/her own buttocks from the trees in the yard. They, & their Embassy, did not think it would be expedient to apply for any sort of diplomatic immunity for their children, who were accordingly subject to the same punishment as all the other children. It didn't seem to bother them much; indeed, I got the impression they were rather proud of being able to take it as well as any of the others, and looked forward to its being a good story which would bring them some cred with their peers when they got back to school in the States!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:26 AM

"In this context, UNICEF condemns the decision to allow the public flogging of 17-year-old Bariya Ibrahim Magazu in the northern Nigerian State of Zamfara on Friday, as punishment for becoming pregnant outside of marriage.

Bariya, who cannot read or write, was apparently not aware of her right to appeal her sentence and was not provided with adequate legal counsel. Her case has provoked a torrent of criticism from within Nigeria and around the world - not only because the girl testified that her pregnancy resulted from rape, but because of the fundamental violation of human rights that flogging represents. Bariya was lashed with a cane 100 times on Friday."

UNICEF Press release, Jan 2001

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 May 11 - 02:21 AM

Indeed, Morwen ~~ & certainly, notoriously, judicial CP in mid-Eastern countries, & in N Nigeria where that young girl got 100 strokes of the cane on her bare bottom a few years back for 'immorality', having been gang-raped ~~

~~ & in Singapore & Malaysia with their infamous 4-ft-long, inch-thick canes which have the blood running down to the floor...

...But they have demonstrably low rates of criminality there.

{Not any sort of recommendation or support for these systems. Just saying...}

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 May 11 - 09:53 PM

As an extra note related to this song; apparently school corporal punishment is still in use in some parts of the world.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:07 PM

I don't actually do calypso. But I do sing Lynchburg Town, which has a whipping theme in a couple of verses [it's in my UTube channel BTW]; & have sung The Deserter occasionally. I always give some sort of intro to a song, but don't think I have ever actually addressed that particular aspect.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:54 PM

Same with East Asian immigrants. So would you, if you perform calypso, perform this song with an introduction?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:50 PM

Yes, Morwen: as I said above, 1253 pm, I agree with you.

As to whether I think the song ironic: probably not, I suspect, as Lord Invader a Trinidadian and pretty well all W Indian parents of my acquaintance have been very physically strict with their children ~ all the many W Indian pupils I taught over 30 years as a senior teacher accepted CorPun as quite a normal expectation as a disciplinary measure.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 May 11 - 05:11 PM

MtheGM, after revising the date I posted to the correct one, I am more sure than ever than Lord Invader had the Notting Hill riots at the back or even the forefront of his mind when he wrote this version.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 May 11 - 04:44 PM

You're welcome. MtheGM, what is your opinion of the irony (or lack of it) in this song? Do you believe it is ironic or not?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 12:53 PM

DtG ~ that is surely the point that Morwen has been making thruout.

Morwen ~ thank you for your revision to 1959 as date of the rewrite, in which case the Notting Hill riots of the previous year would indeed have been much relevant.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 11 - 12:39 PM

BTW - My son, who knew nothing of this thread until I mentioned it to him came up with a very good observation - Maybe Lord Invader wanted to draw attention to the violence that the 'Teds' were perpetrating on his people as much as anything else. I don't know but it is would do the trick! Yes?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 May 11 - 09:05 AM

Ha, ha, *flogging*.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 May 11 - 07:01 AM

"On the English folkscene you see regularly really talented people *flogging themselves to death* with quite dreadful old rubbish (and to be fair some dreadful new rubbish!)"

===
Just to suggest, Al, that within the context of this thread this might perhaps have been more happily put!

LoL

〠 ;-} ☺

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:09 AM

And, yes Alan, I do know what you mean:-) Well said that man.

D.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:06 AM

I wouldn't perform the song, Morwen, but purely because I don't do calypsos! If I did I would be happy to do it without introduction. The mere mention of 'Teddy Boys' ensures that everyone would be aware it is not a song of today. Besides - The spoken, or sung, word can be inflected with irony far better than the written word can. I mentioned Britney Spears earlier - Have you ever heard Travis's version of 'Hit me baby'? Try to find it - It will just show how a whole song can be turned on it's head - In a good way;-)

I may do the Bogle song without intro but I would ensure that I asked that everyone wait until the last verse before throwing things at me!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:04 AM

I think theres some wonderful old songs. I'm not sure this is one of them. I just see a lot of effort expended on songs that to me are unlikely to yield anything much - however presented. On the English folkscene you see regularly really talented people flogging themselves to death with quite dreadful old rubbish (and to be fair some dreadful new rubbish!)

Its up to the individual to judge. You just wish they judged a bit better. Oh come on dave, you know the feeling - three minutes into a song (or tune) about another eight minutes to go or so - and you think why I am here, why is he singing that bloody chorus again...surely singing it first time and the look of despair and suffering on the audiences faces told him something.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 13 May 11 - 10:15 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Joe_F. I guess I didn't make myself clear and I think that when I have the time (no homework or other stuff) I'll make my own recording of "Cat O'Nine Tails" with an introduction like: "This is a song about juvenile delinquency. It proposes a punishment which is intensely harsh and is a reflection of its composer's views and common adult perceptions of youth culture in postwar Britain."

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 May 11 - 10:02 PM

Morwen: You did mention the Horst Wessel song, saying you couldn't imagine anyone but a Nazi sympathizer performing it.

No, I wouldn't sing "Cat o' Nine Tails" at all. Quite aside from its nastiness, it doesn't even scan.