John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 05:11 AM

I'd be very interested to hear of a folk song which, sung in this country in my lifetime (say, over the past 50 or 60 years), has actually changed, or acted as a catalyst for change of, anything in the political spectrum.

It can be a song which, when listened to by politicans, had the effect of changing their political viewpoint and their subsequent actions; or it can be a song which, by being taken up by a substantial portion of the electorate (the voters), has influenced the politicians to change policies.

I'll go even further - I'd be interested to hear of any folk singer or even contemporary singer-songwriter whose oeuvre has overtly achieved such an effect. Billy Bragg? Has he really achieved any real political swerve by his songs - or has he preached to the converted?

Examples please - with details of cause and effect.

Peoples' actions at the ballot box - or fear of their actions - are really what galvanise politicians into action. Yet, time and time again, we get more or less of the same set in power, regardless of their colour on the political spectrum. That being the real state of affairs, I don't believe for one minute that politics in folk music - or much of any music - has any more effect on it than a gnat on an elephant's hide. Which is why I prefer my music free of any overt - and probably simplistic - political messages.

I should add that, at a local level in my own community, I get involved in several projects - in which music plays no part. Now - if everyone got involved in their own community and tried to make it a better place - we might see some gradual change in this country. Might.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Aug 11 - 04:44 AM

"If you don't like the ones I suggested, then pick a method of political activity that you think DOES work then - it's all the same to me."

Er....I already did...and I explained why too. Music.   


"You've a real talent for focusing on the particulars in order to conveniently ignore an overall point, Lizzie."

I attended to your point quite distinctly, matt. Not my fault if you don't do the market research or if you don't like what I said above about the power which music has, above all else, to connect. :0)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:38 PM

If you don't like the ones I suggested, then pick a method of political activity that you think DOES work then - it's all the same to me. You've a real talent for focusing on the particulars in order to conveniently ignore an overall point, Lizzie.

The point, in this instance, being this: if the aim is to get an unambiguous and easily-understandable political message to the biggest number of people, then you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to do it with folk music. Folk music is, it pains me to say, in terms of popular cultural reach, a drop in the ocean today.

I don't doubt that Show of Hands song has been enjoyed and celebrated by many and passed around on youTube, but I don't think it's success ought to be measured by "how many people it converts to communitarianism" (or whatever; insert alternative appropriate ideology here). That frankly won't be very many people (and that has nothing to do with Show of Hands or their songwriting). As with everything else, it's success is ultimately measured in whether it's good art or not.

I know plenty of people who don't like "political songs" because they find them either clunky, cheesy or stupid. You can sum this attitude up as "some information works better as a newspaper article than a poem". I generally share this opinion, but on the other hand I do like politiics in music when it takes this kind of bluntness to the same sort pithy extremes as a protest-march placard.

I kind of veer between the two extremes: I want either personal politics in lived daily life (which I get from pretty much every folksong EVER, but rarely from the stock phrases of pop); or I want blunt truths stated brutally.

A good example would be Public Enemy's "911 is a Joke", or James Brown's "Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud". In fact, black 60s soul pretty much wrote the manual on how to write good political pop. If you're going to sloganeer, then sloganeer, like a good placade. Don't pussyfoot around with all these "Naughty Liars and their Lying Lies" type song titles.

Over the last week I've kept thinking of the song "I Wish There Were No Prisons". Now there's a song title with impact.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 06:18 PM

SoH played 'Arrogance Ignorance and Greed' which went down very well...

Good Lordy, WHO would give out leaflets to spread a message? The first thing most folks do with those is...throw them away. As to e-petitions, well they don't reach in the same way, do they...and besides, they simply get signed, then sent on their way.

Now for instance, moving back to Belo Monte again...President Dilma Rousseff completely ignored over 600,000 signatures on various petitions, back in April, so they don't work...although I'd assume there are now MILLIONS who've signed the new petitions doing the rounds...

And'smashing up Westminster!'...well hardly, you can't even get within a mile of The Houses of Parliament these days without being arrested...

No, you need to do your Market Research a little better, Matt.

Now songs, you see, political songs that is, helped to bring about the end of the Vietnam War, for they galvanised millions into taking to the streets to protest...

You just can't beat the power of songs. And that,of course, is why they killed off The Last DJ, turning them all into Company Men...apart from those lovely fellas at Radio Caroline, who play whatever they want, of course. They're lovely over there...AND, they follow the English folk scene too!   :0)

Your go, Matt. ;0)

Show of Hands and Home Service 53 each
Radio Caroline                42
Bellowhead                      7

(I've decided to be a little kinder to the Bellowing Ones, as they are good musicians) :0)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 06:02 PM

Lizzie, surely logically if you think art ought to be utterly subservient to spreading news and progagandising then aren't both Show of Hands and John Tams failing miserably - they're wasting all this time making music that could be better served giving out leaflets, organising e-petitions and smashing up Westminster!

If you think unambiguous proselytising takes precendence over art-content, then we should remember that hundreds of thousands of Adele fans have never heard of Show of Hands (or John Tams, or indeed Bellowhead) and probably never will, and wouldn't like them even if they did.

That's not a criticism of any of those acts' music - it's just pointing out that contemporary folk music is really the worst vehicle for mass communication and propaganda. Really, the football style scores you keep putting up (art isn't like sport, because it doesn't have rules) ought to be zeroes all round.

I must say, too, I don't think the songs you've posted too are particular specific anyway. "I'm Alright Jack" is loose and baggy enough in its "very bad things" imagery for Michael Gove to essentially agree with. Now, if you'd linked to a Show of Hands song called "David Cameron Drinks the Blood of the Poor" then I might agree with you. Or a John Tams song called "I Support The Looters (Cos I Want A World Without Money)" then you might have a point.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:59 PM

You're free to say whatever you want, matey, or mateyessy..Obviously you're one of the usual suspects, because you've not been able to hold back spewing forth with the 'Oh you were banned from here and there' chant...It never ceases to amaze me!

Good, if folks read what I say, those of whom I speak too.

I am, believe it or not entirely aware of that fact, that is why I have filled this thread up with details of how songs can make a huge difference in this world and how, at present, this world NEEDS strong songs, strong singers, strong writers, as never before.

It is perfectly within my right to say that, so please, do not try to shut me up. As you know many have tried that before and it makes them seethe that Mudcat allows me to still have my freedom of speech.

I do not use that freedom to abuse you, so please, refrain from your personally insulting posts.

And now, if you'll excuse me I'm off back to Facebook to introduce folks to more Show of Hands songs, although they're just finishing...I have 'friends' watching Shrewsbury live from the USA at present...Whoooppeee!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:51 PM

Bellowhead are about interpreting traditional folk songs.

The songs you are referring to are not folk songs.

Bellowhead have gained publicity and success through their modern and interesting way of promoting folk song. That is their role in society, if they must have one, I suppose (obviously I can't speak for the band, but my view on the matter).

Why would they change their entire stance? There are already musicians out there dedicating their music and writing lyrics for political purposes, such as the ones you have mentioned. Why should Bellowhead jump on their wagon? That is not what they do; their purpose and their audiences are different.

Personally, I think there are better ways of getting political statements across. I don't care for the music of Home Service and I think Show of Hands are incredibly cheesy. However, these are just my personal opinions and I appreciate their role within the folk scene and the messages they are trying to put across. They just don't reach me, because I don't think their music is very good. I think they could be using their talent to produce more catchy songs, to reawaken the young folk scene and bring folk music to people who have never heard it before. BUT IT IS NOT MY PLACE TO SAY IT. So why you think it's yours to dictate other peoples musical adventures, is completely beyond me. And besides, there are already people doing that.

The thing you need to remember Lizzie, is that people, sometimes the people you refer to, do actually read these boards. You make yourself look silly and disrespectful by thinking you have these extortionate rights to tell people what and what not to do.

There's a reason you've been banned from so many boards in the past and I wouldn't like this to be another one, so maybe it's time you started writing reasonable and rational thoughts, rather than word vomiting your emotional state all over the internet.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:26 PM

"No trains! No shops! No pubs! No jobs! What went wrong? Country Life!"   

Yeah!!!

Home Service 45
Show of Hands 45
Bellowhead    1/2

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:24 PM

:0)

No, you'd be AMAZED how many folks haven't got a CLUE what's happening around the planet, actually....Trust me, I know, I talk to folks and I see the blank expressions when you mention 'fracking'....although it's starting to get slightly more known about over here now, but only marginally...

Belo Monte isn't politics, it's bloody SURVIVAL!

Still, I'll leave you to go to your festivals and tap your feet...

At this very moment, as I write this, I'm also watching/listening to Show of Hands singing 'Country Life' GREAT song about the shambles that is now our country way of life..."The village is dead and they don't care....." (taken from Steve Knightley's 'Country Life'.....they started their set with 'Cutthroats, Crooks and Conmen' too...revived for David Cameron et al....having been written in The Thatcher Years...

You too can watch them live, on the thread I started on here, but I guess they're a bit too political for you....


Oh....and DO please still ring The Embassy of Brazil, because they're getting very pissed off with folks ringing them!   Yay!!!


By the way, that 'Titanic' video is sick.....horrible idea...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:59 PM

Lizzie you just stated:

"Er...I never said I wanted them to stand and talk politics, merely sing some songs that have a little more meaning to them, that's all. Keep your hair on.. ;0) "

And about two posts afterwards said:

"And..just imagine, IF Bellowhead had given out the phone number of the Embassy of Brazil in London, explaining to their audience about Belo Monte and the further SIXTY dams that Brazil is planning in the Rainforest"

...they're supposed to sing this information are they?

Also, instead of expecting and dictating what other people should be doing to get the message out, why don't you start your own band/pick your own songs/write your own lyrics/write novels/ etc. and spread the message?

Why do you think that anyone cares about this stuff?

Don't get me wrong, I do care about the state of our planet and the terrible things that happen, but I go to gigs to relax and chill out and forget, just for an hour, about all the shitty things that are happening- the last thing I'd want is the bloody band preaching to me! I'd go to church id I wanted that.

The truth is, people KNOW about these things already. We are an educated society. We have the internet, we have the TV, the radio- we hear about all of these things every day. People will decided for themselves whether they are going to help make a change or not.

Also, your point-scoring is getting really old and pathetic. We get it, you like Home Service and you dislike Bellowhead- that's fine, but the reminders are getting irritating.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

As for Jon Boden's dad being a stockbroker:

a) he isn't.

b) what on earth does that have to do with the price of fish?

Looks like poor journalism to me. Trying to justify a free ticket perhaps?

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 10:16 AM

The dance band on the Titanic

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 09:01 AM

"We HAVE to BELIEVE what we know. Let me tell you something.It is too late to be pessimistic. Really too late.s We are all part of the Solutions. To finish I would like to welcome the 4700 babies born since the beginning of this talk. Merci beaucoup. I love you." Yann Arthus Bertrand


And now back to the Childe Ballads....

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:55 AM

And..just imagine, IF Bellowhead had given out the phone number of the Embassy of Brazil in London, explaining to their audience about Belo Monte and the further SIXTY dams that Brazil is planning in the Rainforest...and that Monday 22nd August, just gone, was the day of International Protest around the planet, then they could have probably increased the amount of folks who did phone, email and protest in person, by a significant amount...

We are beyond Traditional now.

IF you are an artist/band who has the good fortune to be able to reach many people, then truly, you should start to reach out and make your voices heard, joining everyone together as fast as possible..because we're in it up to our necks.

We CAN still get out, limit the damage, learn to live around it, repair it...but if we don't then the generations to come of Bellowhead's audience, and the young audiences of many other bands/artists are going to battling to stay alive....

Simples...
Depressing, yes, but that's how it is folks...

And in turning away, ignoring, refusing to stand together, you are contributing to The Silence of the Good which has helped to bring us to this state in the first place.

We will ALL be affected!

And I write this just an hour after hearing from a dear friend in New Jersey who told me that there is now no way in or out of the City unless you have a car. ALL buses, trains, coaches, planes have been stopped, so many shops shut, and already emptied of stock.....whilst they sit and wait...wait...wait...........

John Tams message, even if said in mischief, is A Call To Arms as well...

I would urge ALL those who can, to take up that Call as soon as they possibly can.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM

I think, today of all days, when in one week the USA has been hit by Earthquakes and today lies waiting for the Hurricane, that maybe they should get out there and 'preach the Gospel' to as many folks as they can find, because we're in deep shite, folks..and the more folks who get to understand that fact, the better....


Here, Bellowhead should watch this....from the man who made the stunningly wonderful film 'HOME', available complete on Youtube, in every major language in the world, because Yann cares so deeply about this amazing planet, and, having photographed it for years he knows what deep trouble we are already in.....

Yann Arthus Bertrand at TED talking about the impact we're having on our planet


On the other hand, they could serenade us with songs about Sailors & Prozzies as we all go down together, kind of like the Folk Equivalent of The Dance Band on the Titanic, to use Harry Chapin's title...

"We do not want to believe what we know. " Yann Arthus Betrand.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 04:10 AM

I really am glad that there are some songs and some people who do not want to convert me to their way of thinking. It is a joy to just enjoy music for it's own sake and while Bellowhead are not may favourite they are refreshing in their approach. Personaly I prefer Noah and the Whale, who are more pop that folk I suppose, or any of Ashley Hutchings' bands (Maybe it is the bass!) I am not a huge fan of singer/songwriters but John Tams is one of the best. He is certainly a very wise man and can engender controversy as well as anyone. Just look at this thread to see what I mean. But I am not willing to get into a competition to see who 'wins' in a matter of personal taste. I like what I like, other people like what they like. I don't particularly feel the need to score points and I cannot see why anyone who does not state what their political viewpoint is needs to be denegrated.

Just my 2 penn'urth

DtG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 05:01 PM

Er...I never said I wanted them to stand and talk politics, merely sing some songs that have a little more meaning to them, that's all. Keep your hair on.. ;0)

And maybe you're right. Maybe they should leave those kind of songs to Home Service to do, for they obviously arent' scared to voice their opinions in song...

Home Service 35
Bellowhead    1andthreequarters

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,STM.
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

Lizzie is making some outrageous remarks which I can't even bebothered to address. However, I do just want to add a few questions:

Bellowhead have 11 members (12 including the manager), do you honestly think they are going to have a complete and unified opinion on politics?

Why is their place to spread the word about politics and the world affairs? They are simply a band who take traditional material and whilst keeping true to the tradition, in terms of melodies, lyrics and heart, and rearrange it for a more modern more dancy crowd. They are about fun- since when was politics fun? And why does everything have to be serious? People have always been racists, facists, murderers and God knows what else- we just have more mediums in which to exude that kind of behaviour now.

I think some people need to remember that these people are simply musicians doing their job (who probably aren't as rich or up their own arse as you suspect). They have NO DUTY whatsoever to change the way the UK is won or how people view other situations. Not for you and not for anyone.

As individuals, I'm sure every member of Bellowhead does have strong political views and would happily discuss and promote those with others- but to expect them to do so at a gig is absurd- there would be no gig, just bickering amongst the stage no doubt!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:15 PM

"[mudelf snip - 4 paragraphs - so sorry, but please keep the politics out of the music threads!]"

This isn't a music thread.

---

Matt, if you want a better explanation, contact me by e-mail. Thanks.
-Joe Offer, [e-mail]-

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM

Musicians make music.

Politicians make politics.

Musicians are good.

Politicians are bad. (Ye, ALL of them :-) )

Some musicicians try to be politicians.

Some politicians try to be musicians.

None of them are very good each others jobs...

:D tG

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 07:26 AM

"Bellowhead's manager answered this when he pointed out that 11 people aren't necessarily going to share the same political opinions. How can they "spread the message" if they don't agree what the message is or how it should be spread?"- Howard

I do tend to assume that people into the sorts of music I like - folk, free improv, punk, lo-fi indie, avant garde noise, contemporary classical - have similar politics to me. That's becuase they generally DO.

[mudelf snip - 4 paragraphs - so sorry, but please keep the politics out of the music threads!]

It's always gratifying to have a prejudice confirmed, and I'd say that when I find myself admiring someone's music and lyrics, I generally find they are incisive about politics too (even if they might not subscribe to any particular party line).

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: cooperman
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 05:46 AM

Sorry, clicked on this in error. Better think of something meaningful to say now!! Nah! Although I think if I picked up a melodeon it would have to go out the window (as should politics in music).I'm all for songs that get people thinking about others though and the state of the world we live in.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:02 AM

What will John Tams do next? Maybe he'll record an album of jolly dance tunes. If he did I feel sure it would be excellent.

Well although I've not seen him do it for years he is/was an excellent English-style melodeon player, so stranger things have happened ...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 02:26 AM

Good point Ms/Mr BTNG,

I was refering to the phrase "hearding cats" - a task of considerable difficulty - and how that might relate to getting 11 musicians to agree a set list and arrangements for songs & tunes. In that frame of mind I recalled the excellent poem by Les.

As for the original point - "What will Bellowhead do"? I dunno. What did they say they would do when they set out years ago? Play excitng songs and tunes mostly traditional? What will John Tams do next? Maybe he'll record an album of jolly dance tunes. If he did I feel sure it would be excellent.

heers
L in C# off to SFF

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:37 PM

It always amuses me when Les of C accuses others of not sticking to the point, and then does exactly the same thing himself. Yes, Les we all know how funny (those of us with a sense of humour that is) Les Barker is, but the point was about the political views of 11 members of a band, and here's me, foolishly thinking we were getting somewhere, Oh well, I can live in hope.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

Oops....
Cool 'red', as in colour that is....

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM

Ooh, cool read, Max..

But..they were only *little* paragraphs! ;0)   

Spoilsport... lol

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:19 AM

Please sit down and stop shouting your spoiling a very good point

L in C#

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 05:22 AM

Well, 'the message' is that we all start caring for each other FAR more than we are doing, right alongside caring for our planet, which is dying at the rate of a Bellowhead tune!

...[6 paragraphs removed by max (who weeps]]...

Sorry Lizzie, can't discuss this. ~max

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 05:15 AM

11 musicians one message - Hearding Cats? Les Barker - a great poem

L in C# but packing for S

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 03:01 AM

Bellowhead's manager answered this when he pointed out that 11 people aren't necessarily going to share the same political opinions. How can they "spread the message" if the don't agree what the message is or how it should be spread?

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,s-j in London
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:00 PM

yes, I agree, political songs do spread and work...I like it that they do too. I just think that, y'knah people don't have to be expected to create /sing them....they will happen anyway, when the people who get inspired to write /sing / perform / share them do so...anyhow, not going to repeat myself more, feel like am getting circular!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:13 PM

And you're alright Jon - pull up the ladder
    Alright Jon - you're safe on the wall
    Alright Jon - and if you climb just a little bit higher
    But the higher you climb the further you fall

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 02:14 PM

But in the end it's simply down to musicianship and how they sound, and Home Service to me sound like the best, and bellowhead do not - can't stand them.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 02:01 PM

"Do you write songs/sing Lizzie?"

Nope, but I spread great songs around, everywhere. And if you read my first post above you'll see that I have been deeply inspired by brilliant songwriters.

I'm living proof, like it or not, that political songs do work, as do performers who go out of their way to spread the message about so much that is going wrong around us, getting people to think far more deeply than before.

Acorns 'n' Oak Trees 'n' all that 'stuff'....

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,s-j in London
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

ha ha! like it!

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:17 AM

Blimey. I hope John Tams doesn't own a rabbit.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,s-j in London
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:11 AM

Maybe they should. If THEY want to. That's all I am saying!
Do you write songs/sing Lizzie?

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:05 AM

Well, maybe it's because Bellowhead reach so many young people, SJ. They have great opportunities there...

But hell, maybe you're all right...maybe they should just carry on singing about sailors and prozzies for the rest of their days...


Let's forget folks are being banged away for 6 months for stealing a bottle of water, or for stealing nothing at all....

Let's forget The Bankers will never be brought to justice, or have an all-night Court staying open especially for them...

Let's just carry on as before....

Right, People, heads IN sand and up bums, IMMEDIATELY!!!

And...as you do it, please say, loudly now..."I'm alright, Jack..and sod YOU!"


Home Service 20
Bellowhead    2

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: GUEST,s-j in London
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:10 AM

It's interesting to see that sometimes people think that musicians / singer songwriters have a duty to be political...why? And you cant assume that you will agree with all of anyones political beliefs / ideas.

I read that when people mention Dylan as a 'political' (although I have never really thought so especially, more social commentary) songwriter, he is not thinking about that himself nor especially trying to be so.

I'm interested in politics, and sometimes find political songs that I like/connect with, but I don't think it's something that should be expected.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:02 AM

"Sure, a sloganeering or hand-wringing political song might have the power to alert somebody to a situation. Though I think they are pretty exceptional, and need to be a lot more specific than the two you cite."

matt...for your information....EVERY time I put 'Arrogance, Ignorance & Greeed' *anywhere* on the internet, it is taken up by others...It is a hugely powerful song..and has been played more than a few times on Radio 2, I believe.

The country, in case you haven't noticed, is ragingly angry about the bankers...and many folks can see that you cannot have one rule for them, then lock others up for stealing er...*nothing*, as has happened with one person, or give another six months for stealing a bottle of water.

Tracey Chapman's excellent 'Revolution' is also being passed around the planet too...

People are angry. What is happening now is touching the lives of very many folks in the Western World..and it's going to get worse, whilst at the top of the ladder, they are getting more and more sickeningly wealthy..

Truly, whilst there's a place for traditional music, there should also be a huge surge by all songwriters to get the message out there as much as they are able to try and turn things around.


Les, the rest of my point was serious..the first sentence, which you asked me about, was said with a smile on my face..and I still think John Tams has done the right thing in saying what he did, throwing down the gauntlet, so to speak...

IF Bellowhead are Good Men and Women True, then I hope they will pick the gauntlet up and go into battle too....

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM

Sorry Lizzie I thought you wer etrying to amke a serous point

L in C#
Shouting doesn't carry more meaning

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:44 AM

If you allow that a man can write a song called "Working Mother", and that people other than working mothers can relate to it, then you really ought to extend Bellowhead the same credit, and allow that songs about sailors (or any other profession) are about more than the just the prosaic details in their story. After all, we all relate to love songs sung to people with names or genders other than our own.

Sure, a sloganeering or hand-wringing political song might have the power to alert somebody to a situation. Though I think they are pretty exceptional, and need to be a lot more specific than the two you cite. A good example might be the 'Free Nelson Mandela' by the Specials. It wasn't subtle, it wasn't poetry, it wasn't great art, but it did make lots of teenagers ask the question "Who's Nelson Mandela?".

Now obviously I'm not saying that folksongs about working class people going out on the lash (ie Bellowhead's material) are "political" in that sloganeering way: they're self-evidently not.

But I still say they're political. And I prefer them to hand-wringing type songs.   

There's a totally different point to be made here, too, which has nothing to do with the emotional impact of a song, or what it's about. And that's that ultimately the British public don't care two hoots what John Tams or Show of Hands or Bellowhead think about anything. Because they don't listen to folk! They listen to pop and hip-hop and indie etc.
The sad fact is, in terms of numbers of hearts and minds, Chris Martin or Radiohead saying something about Making Trade Fair changes far more minds than any folksong will in this day and age.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:44 AM

Nope, I'm describing people who aren't paying prostitutes for their services, but are literally struggling to put food on their plates, matt...

What is happening around us at present has nothing to do with sailors...sigh....

I get your point, but it's way off point....because not for a single moment do I believe those kinds of songs have anywhere NEAR the same effect as say the song below has on today's population...

High Impact Political Song

'Alright Jack' is as fitting today as it was when it was first written...whereas songs of sailors and prozzies have no reflection on today's society..and besides, what a sailor chooses to do with his own money is up to him..and it's hardly the end of the world if he's decided to spend it all on a woman for one night, than eat for an entire week is it....?

You want a modern song about the ladies of the night? Then get Bellowhead to sing this one, because I've no doubts at all that many more women will be thinking about this, when their benefits are cut back, when society has labelled *them* the reasons for The Riots and the country going downhill etc...

Martyn Joseph - Working Mother

And note how the woman in that song is 'working' to buy her children not just food, but all the new things that kids have come to almost demand in this Materialistic World where The Corporate Bastards have invented Pester Power and Parent Guilt, convincing all, yes, even those rioters the other day, that life without the basic 'must have' necessities is no life at all....


Your go...   :0)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:47 AM

""Folk songs about sailors being ripped off by prostitutes are political."
No, they're historical, aren't they?"

Things can be, and generally are, both. To state the obvious.

As it happens, I imagine our armed forces still dally with ladies of the night when they're off on their tours of duty.

But that's beside the point: songs about money and desire will always be topical, irrespective of the historical age of the dramatis personae.

"There are many folks out there who really don't give a flying duck about those at the bottom of the ladder, other than to see 'em banged up for as long as possible for the most minimal of crimes..."

Funny, you're describing exactly the sort of "lowlife" characters Bellowhead sing about.

"some of which are FAR LESS of a crime than those committed by Nick Clegg and those who were The Bullingdon Boys, now raining down their wrath upon 'the wrong type of criminal'......obviously, *their* type being the correct type..."

Funny, you're describing exactly the sort of "aristocratic" characters Bellowhead also sing about.

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:32 AM

"Folk songs about sailors being ripped off by prostitutes are political."


No, they're historical, aren't they?

Besides, sailors who visit prostitutes, now or in the past, are nowt to do with what's happening around us these days...

We're in Truly Deep Shite..and if you don't believe me, take a look at some, MANY of the posts on David Cameron's FB and the BBC Breakfast one as well, for they're filled with fascist, racist comments that will make your hair stand on end...

There are many folks out there who really don't give a flying duck about those at the bottom of the ladder, other than to see 'em banged up for as long as possible for the most minimal of crimes...some of which are FAR LESS of a crime than those committed by Nick Clegg and those who were The Bullingdon Boys, now raining down their wrath upon 'the wrong type of criminal'......obviously, *their* type being the correct type...

And now, back to sailors and prozzies and things that go bump in the night...

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 07:11 AM

Actually I would say if you think what makes art political is an unequivocal nailing of your colours to the mast - repeated unambiguous dogmatic assertions of what you think about a political situation - then showing your support for Folk Against Fascism clearly DOES a political band maketh.

But personally I see political song as way more nuanced than that... Folk songs about sailors being ripped off by prostitutes are political. They are about money, what it does and what it does to people. They are about gender and status and work.

(See also: The Sex Pistols, Frank Zappa's "We're Only In It For the Money", The Slits "Cut", The Pop Groups "We are all Prostitutes", Iggy Pop's "Mass Production" etc etc etc)

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 06:56 AM

A touch of humour, Les?

Although, heck, FAR be it from me to try to bring humour into a Bellowhead discussion! ;0)

Ohhhh gawd! May the Heavens and Saints preserve us from the Humourless Folkies!


Look, John Tams would have a twinkle in his eye when he said what he did...I did too, although the twinkle soon became a Spark when I started to explain of the good they could do, the great words and thoughts they could spread ever further....


Never mind, though, let's just keep them singing about alleyways and trollops...

And..FAF alone doth not a Political Band maketh.


As I said

Home Service 10
Bellowhead    5

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 06:44 AM

Lizzie, what does this bring to the discussion:

"Well, I say "Well done!" to John for putting a rocket up Bellowhead's backside... ;0)?"

Can someone find the lyrics to "It's just the song" by Leon Rosseleson? As ever it says so much and surprise so effectively

L in C#

Subject: RE: John Tams asks Bellowhead about politics
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 06:42 AM

I think Bellowhead already are political, anyway. As has been pointed out, they are Folk Against Fascism supporters.

Plus their music, image and song-choices are clearly in that roustabout Rabelaisian, Hogarthian tradition of celebration of lowlives and anti-establishment figures.

Theirs is a musical demi-monde long-frequented by such admirably dodgy geezers as Kurt Weill, Tom Waits, Nick Cave, Eugene Hutz and Shane McGowan. The moonlit, piss-streaked alleyways are not where workers go to organize, sure, but neither are they the thoroughfares of the bourgeois.