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BBc defends folk awards

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BTNG 22 Nov 11 - 06:54 PM
Commander Crabbe 22 Nov 11 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Guest 22 Nov 11 - 09:15 PM
BTNG 22 Nov 11 - 10:29 PM
Tim Leaning 22 Nov 11 - 10:43 PM
Les in Chorlton 23 Nov 11 - 03:14 AM
Howard Jones 23 Nov 11 - 04:33 AM
Les in Chorlton 23 Nov 11 - 05:00 AM
John MacKenzie 23 Nov 11 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Len Goodman 23 Nov 11 - 05:26 AM
Brakn 23 Nov 11 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 23 Nov 11 - 05:51 AM
Les in Chorlton 23 Nov 11 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Usual suspect 23 Nov 11 - 06:42 AM
GUEST 23 Nov 11 - 07:02 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM
Howard Jones 23 Nov 11 - 08:22 AM
Howard Jones 23 Nov 11 - 08:23 AM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 09:18 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Nov 11 - 11:03 AM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM
GUEST 23 Nov 11 - 12:09 PM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 23 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 12:40 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Nov 11 - 01:08 PM
Les in Chorlton 23 Nov 11 - 01:10 PM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 01:24 PM
Vic Smith 23 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM
Vic Smith 23 Nov 11 - 01:57 PM
Tim Leaning 23 Nov 11 - 01:59 PM
Tim Leaning 23 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Usual suspect 23 Nov 11 - 02:03 PM
Vic Smith 23 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM
BTNG 23 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM
EmmaHartley 23 Nov 11 - 03:54 PM
EmmaHartley 23 Nov 11 - 03:55 PM
Tootler 23 Nov 11 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 24 Nov 11 - 04:38 AM
Les in Chorlton 24 Nov 11 - 05:34 AM
Howard Jones 24 Nov 11 - 02:35 PM
BTNG 24 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM
Tim Leaning 24 Nov 11 - 03:31 PM
The Sandman 24 Nov 11 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Silas 24 Nov 11 - 04:01 PM
BTNG 24 Nov 11 - 04:08 PM
Spleen Cringe 24 Nov 11 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Guest 25 Nov 11 - 03:25 AM
theleveller 25 Nov 11 - 04:02 AM
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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 06:54 PM

I'm thinking that GUEST and GUEST,Usual suspect haven't a thing to do with Smooth Ops


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:45 PM

Awards by panels of judges are generally speaking subjective. To give a fair representation of subjective opinions it helps to have a lot of judges.

I remember whilst on holiday in Scotland the wife and I bought some award winning black pudding. Needless to say we didn't agree with the judges!!!! It was (to our tastes) gopping to say the least. That said, someone must have liked it.

I could agree somewhat with stallion in that awards are there as a marketing tool to boost sales of so and so or who ever.

I personally don't care who gets nominated or who wins the awards, it will not affect who I listen to or who's music i'll buy. That will always remain my choice.

In truth I rarely listen to or agree with critics or judges as whether I like something or not is a personal thing.

If people want to have awards why not leave them to it. If you don't agree with the nominees or winners, so what. Listen to who you prefer instead!

After all you are entitled to your own opinion. However, if you are allowed to have your own opinion you should concede that everyone else is entitled to theirs as well.

We all live under the same sky, but we don't all have the same horizon. ~ Konrad Adenauer

CC


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 09:15 PM

Mike Harding was at one time all the things attributed to him and quite brilliant at times. One suspects he also was making a fair old living from it as he always struck me as nobody's fool.

So why did he give all that up and settle down to presenting a not very accurate programme supposedly depicting the "folk scene"?

Ran out of ideas? Found the pressure too much?

Only he knows.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:29 PM

what insight GUEST Guest; could you do better?

A Yes or no answer will suffice.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:43 PM

OH crap is it nearly christmas again?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:14 AM

I think most things have been said and some many times and Mike needs noone to defend him but:

Dave H

"I was the Union Branch Secretary at my last long term job Les, so I did more arguing with management than saying yes sir no sir three bags full sir".

Good point Dave, more power to you and anybodyelses elbow doing such tricky work.

Mike brings more than a little experience to the show and I feel sure he doesn't simply do what he is told.

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:33 AM

I think most of the complaints are about the "usual suspects" cropping up time and time again. But if they're among the best acts around, they're going to keep getting nominated.

It's easy to disagree with the nominations and say "so-and-so should have been nominated" but that's ultimately a personal opinion. I'm sure many of the judges disagree with some of the final list. What would be of concern would be if there were any evidence that so-and-so had been excluded from oconsideration - so far as I'm aware there's been no suggestion, let alone any evidence, of a blacklist. If someone has evidence of actual corruption, let's sse it. Otherwise, a lot of the dissatisfaction is just the usual grumbling which we all seem to enjoy indulging in.

The problem arises because of distrust in the folk world of both the BBC and SmoothOps. However, they're the only ones in the game. I think their PR surrounding the awards could be better, instead of appearing to reluctantly release snippets of information about the process under pressure. In particular, I'd like to understand the criteria used to judge the performers by.

Ultimately, it's a bit of fun, it's good for those who are nominated, and it's good for folk by raising its profile. It could be done better, but what couldn't?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:00 AM

Well said Howard

L


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:03 AM

Is Len Goodman one of the judges?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Len Goodman
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:26 AM

I am sworn to secrecy!


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Brakn
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:34 AM

So........has anyone got a couple of spare tickets?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:51 AM

I `ad that Mike `arding in my cab the other day. `e `ad just come from a meeting with the Awards production mob.
I said, " Morning Mike. I see that annual Mudcat discussion about the Awards is up and running again. Are you gonna do anything about changing it ? Cos you know that Vic Smith `as got a point. Just `ow do you decide on The Musician of the Year?"
`e said, "No worries Jim. Next year the winner will be one `oo can play the most notes and sing the most words in three minutes. Just like the `lympics!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:21 AM

Xlnt Mr knowledge

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Usual suspect
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:42 AM

You're right, I don't have anything to do with Smooth Operations. If I did I don't think I would be eligible for the voting panel.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:02 AM

I am Guest. I do not have anything to do with Smooth Operations ...


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM

Howard Jones is correct, if they are the best musicians around they are bound to keep getting nominated, only...............they are the best from a very small list chosen by Smooth Operations.

A few years ago, just like the way the pop charts work, we got to saturation point with Kate Rusby [ as much as I love her ] on the Mike Harding show, this is the way it works and until Smooth Operations give more clarity it will always appear to be corrupt.

As the BBC is a public funded body it may be worthwhile asking them to name all the judges under the freedom of information act.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:22 AM

But they're not chosen from a list nominated by SmoothOps. John Leonard said they send around a list based on what's been on Mike Harding's shoe, but one of the judges has confirmed that they are not restricted to this list, it's just an aide-memoire to what might be eligible.

This is what I mean by poor PR. If SmoothOps were more open about the processes and criteria, there would be fewer opportunities for assumptions and misunderstandings.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:23 AM

That should be "what's on Mike Harding's show" but some might think what I put was right first time :)


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 09:18 AM

"but some might think what I put was right first time"

aye, the usual suspects, those who also criticise the BBC Folk Awards, simply because THEIR favourite(s) haven't been nominated in some category or other.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:03 AM

I am very pleased that Blair Dunlop has reached the final 4 in the young folk award. He is a very good musician and songwriter indeed, and he admits that the standard of musician he was up against was awesome. I'm sure that the other finalists are of the same standard.

I also understand that the lead up to the final 4 being chosen must be the folk equivalent of training to be a Royal Marine!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM

Blair Dunlop has more to live up to, I think, than most, considering who his parents are.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:09 PM

Guest here again.
Some clarification is needed.
When the voting form is sent out, there is also a list of CDs that have been released during the qualifying period. This time, there were 135 CDs on the list. Not all of these CDs have been played on Mike Harding's show.
It is made clear that choices (for best album) need not be restricted to this list.
There is no other list of artists.

Regarding the same names being nominated each year ... assuming that is true (I've not done an analysis) ... it's not surprising. This isn't the Oscars - new films each year - or the Brit Awards (pop music subject to fashion). It's folk music ... artists tend to stick around for more than a year or two.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:13 PM

no clarification is need, I don't think, I think we're all aware of how it all works., "GUEST". Obviously don't want to reveal who you are, so why is it we should take you seriously?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM

>Obviously don't want to reveal who you are, so why is it we should take you seriously?<

Well, good manners might be one reason. As another of the shadowy figures who comprise the "panel", I can confirm that what GUEST says is true in every detail.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:40 PM

Oh right "the panel" all of a sudden appears out of nowhere....pull the other one sunshine, it's got bells on it


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:08 PM

Does BTNG have a gold medal for talking rubbish??


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:10 PM

Maybe a special BBC Award?

L in C#


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:24 PM

Look...Uncle Boko and Uncle Les Chorlton, let me explain it slowly to you, all of a sudden we have a rather large number of "guests" appearing, all claiming to be a member of some panel or other and claiming to have inside knowledge of how The BBC Folk Awards work. It seems rather odd to me, as I said, that all of a sudden this "panel", should, en masse
Now, Uncle Bko, I gather you're the world's leading expert on rubbish, usually of the right wing variety, so you have little or no room to speak (I mean barred from fRoots..come on!! *LOL* loser)

Les in Chorlton I have nothing say to you as I don't know you.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM

I sometimes think that there ought to be a guide to reading Mudcat threads - something like:-

Posts 1- 25 Information exchanged, positions taken up
Posts 25-50 If discussions, continue they become more heated.
Posts 50 + Increasing appearance of posts simple given as 'GUEST'. Strong challenges to any stated position, insults start to be exchanged, withdrawal of most posters, combatants left to slug it out.

I ought to add, sadly, that this only applies to threads that are on British subjects and are dominated by British members of this most erudite and considerate of notice boards.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:57 PM

Have we reached the stage where the moderators need to put the Warning inverted commas around the title of this thread?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:59 PM

"Blair Dunlop has more to live up to, I think, than most, considering who his parents are. " ?
Whom ?


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM

No dont bother.
As I posted earlier it must nearly be christmas
I hope some of you get the other pressies you were wanting .


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Usual suspect
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:03 PM

I can confirm that what Guest says is true. BTNG, I don't really care whether you believe anything I've said. I don't think I have said anything particularly controversial or unexpected. Sorry if it isn't helpful to the conspiracy theorists to find out that it's all pretty straightforward and above-board.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM

Tim Leaning asks

"Blair Dunlop has more to live up to, I think, than most, considering who his parents are. " ?
Whom ?


At http://www.folkicons.co.uk/ashlink.htm it says:-

Blair Dunlop - Ashley (Hutchings) and Judy Dunlop's son. Encouraged to take to the stage since a young age, he has now blossomed into a greatly admired singer, guitarist and actor.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM

Yes Vic, as an actor the TV series, Rocketman and as the child Willy Wonka in Tim Burton's production, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) The confrontation scene featuring Blair and Christopher Lee is still incredible to watch!


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM

I just watched some bits and pieces from one of the BBC Folk Awards shows, can't remember which year, not important anyway, and if it hadn't have been for the title telling me what I was watching, I would swear I was watching the (fill in the appropriate music genre) awards show, or something close.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: EmmaHartley
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:54 PM

If anyone would like to contact the guy at the BBC whose job it is to make sure the awards are compliant with the BBC code of conduct - transparency being a key thing - his name is Fergus Dudley. Email fergus.dudley@bbc.co.uk

http://theglamourcave.blogspot.com/2011/11/folk-awards-couple-of-things.html


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: EmmaHartley
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 03:55 PM

Dang. I meant

http://theglamourcave.blogspot.com/2011/11/folk-awards-couple-of-things.html


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:30 PM

After following the equivalent thread some years ago, I actually bought the Folk Awards CD. Very much a curate's egg with some excellent stuff and some pretty trite stuff, but interesting listening, nevertheless.

It doesn't pay to take these awards too seriously. I see them as an exercise in mutual back patting by whichever glitterati are dishing out the awards. The recipients are only bit players in the whole exercise really.

That said, for those nominated it's useful publicity and the awards do help to raise the profile of folk music, so there is that to be said for them.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:38 AM

>all of a sudden we have a rather large number of "guests" appearing, all claiming to be a member of some panel or other and claiming to have inside knowledge of how The BBC Folk Awards work.<

I've often suspected I'm not who I say I am. Looks like I was right. Thanks for that.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:34 AM

Xlnt Mr G, me neither.

Althoughs rich young folkies swanning around the UK in Limos playing crap music and staring in Bollywoodesque DVDs aintche sick of em?

On the road in crappy camper vans playing for peanuts in lousy rooms above smelly pubs - breaks your heart

Glenda in C#


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:35 PM

A vigorous defence from Mike Harding:

Mike Harding's blog

It is a bit alarming that what started out as a combination of the usual grumbling about the "usual suspects" from people whose favourites had been missed off, together with largely idle curiosity about who the judges are and what are the criteria for the different categories, has turned into a witchhunt in pursuit of some imagined scandal. Now those of us who are Mudcat regulars will recognise this as par for the course, but to outsiders, especially in the BBC, it may appear very different. If folkies appear to be so outraged by the Folk Awards, the BBC may ask themselves why they should continue to fund it.

Much as I enjoy Emma's blog, I think she's got this one wrong, and pestering the BBC's compliance department over a supposed breach for which there's no real foundation could do more harm than good.

The folk awards are a golden opportunity - pretty much the only opportunity in fact - for folk music and folk artists to get briefly noticed by the wider world. The shortlist won't please everyone, in fact it doubt if it entirely pleases anyone, but all the acts on it deserve to be there. Yes, there are other acts who perhaps also deserve to be there, but if they are good then they stand a chance of being there some day - if the Awards don't get scrapped in the meantime. Now that would be a bad day for folk.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM

well jolly good for you raymond..


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for the info Vic Smith..
Some nice songs there,the guitaring is good if a little overly percusive for my tastes lol
(Curse his young fingers)


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:59 PM

The folk awards are a golden opportunity - pretty much the only opportunity in fact - for folk music and folk artists to get briefly noticed by the wider world. The shortlist won't please everyone, in fact it doubt if it entirely pleases anyone, but all the acts on it deserve to be there. Yes, there are other acts who perhaps also deserve to be there, but if they are good then they stand a chance of being there some day - if the Awards don't get scrapped in the meantime. Now that would be a bad day for folk."
hilarious, Mike Harding, the sooner this kind of tomfoolery is scrapped the better, you will be advocating Comhaltas competitions next


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:01 PM

I think anyone making any contribution to this thread should read MH's blog on the subject.

He has got it about spot on right IMHO


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:08 PM

Of course Harding is going to support the awards, that goes without saying, don't mean the rest of us have to.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:18 PM

Howard said of Emma's blog I think she's got this one wrong, and pestering the BBC's compliance department over a supposed breach for which there's no real foundation could do more harm than good.

And I'm posting his comment again because it sums it up nicely.

And Mike Harding's robust rebuttal of his critics makes for excellent reading.

Neither Smooth Ops nor Mike Harding nor the Folk Awards are representatives of some sort of evil empire and it does none of us any credit when they are singled out as if they were. Folk music is a many headed beast and long may it remain so.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 03:25 AM

Wow the shine from the tin foil hats in this thread is blinding.

Yes questions needed to be asked about the R2FA but there are ways and means. The questions a lot of people wanted asking have now been asked and more than answered by MH. Anyone with an ounce of reasoning and broad reading skills can garner enough information about the whole thing to see the bigger picture.

Isn't it obvious what this debacle is? A thinly veiled but seemingly successful attempt to drive traffic to a try-hard journo's crappy blog and some nobody's Geocities-esque podcast site.

Well done. Polish those (s)hit counters.

Whatever happened to getting some actual facts together and making a reasoned assessment before pasting your colon all over the Internet and stirring up a shit storm. Some people obviously missed that lesson in 'being a decent human being school'.

As for the sour grapers and armchair snipers, spend as much time practicing your craft as you do on message boards arguing the toss and feeding the trolls and maybe you'll be up for an award sometime.

Jus' sayin'.


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Subject: RE: BBc defends folk awards
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 04:02 AM

"Folk music is a many headed beast"

And, fortunately, when you chop one off it grows another three.


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