Alternative Folk Awards

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:04 AM

As with so many areas today, there seems to be a preoccupation with being 'famous' and gaining national or international recognition. I find thse extremely saddening. As Howard Jones points out above, there are plenty (probably the majority) of people performing and creating folk music in very much a local context and this - for me, at least - is where it has the greatest resonance. It's a bit like the best food which in France and increasingly in Britain, has an 'appellation controlee'. Often the best folk music simply doesn't travel very far from its roots. Let's face it, food and other elements of our culture which gain universal appeal actually appeal to the lowest common demoninator and become bland and boring.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:23 AM

I think there's room for both. I spend most of my time playing in local sessions, or gigging with my ceilidh band. I don't often get along to see others perform. But I don't begrudge that some people are able to make a living from it. The professionals provide the rest of us with inspiration (and much of our repertoire) but they're just the tip of a much bigger iceberg.

Most are not after "fame" as such (becoming a folk musician would be a strange way to seek it) but recognition is a necessary part of getting enough work to keep going.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 11:40 AM

sadly what the battalions of bum kissers forget is that we're talking about FOLK music.

Take the BBC face of Folk, Country, and jazz

Carthy, Gillian Welch, Courtney Pine.

Can you imagine any of these people handling a new years eve gig, where people get up and boogie? And I'm afraid without the spit and sawdust - it ain't folkmusic.

At least the Yanks try and fake it - think of Ry Cooder and Flaco Jimenez, and Bruce Springteens Seeger concerts. Its not the real thing, but at least its an imaginative recreation of folk music.

In England - its the stuff af arts centres, and Bang and Olufsen stereos. Folk music with the folk extracted.

And CJ - the Skimmities could pass the New Years eve test, so could I have done when I had my health - so from what I gather could Will Fly and Ian Mather.

the dullness is only down to the cheap video camera - and your used to Dolby Sound, or whatever.

in short I'm talking about up close and personal music that has something to say - even if its only - I am alive, and my commerce with alive people - not a dead culture.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM

I do appreciate the professional folk musicians and enjoy what they do. However, if you choose to become a professional and you find you can't make a living at it, there's no point in complaining - it's obvious that people just don't want to buy what you're selling. If you think folk music is hard you should try being a writer and getting stuff published, or an artist, a classical pianist, a ballet dancer or whatever. In the end - even though you may be a genius - the world doesn't owe you a living. You either have the conviction that what you are creating is great and stick at it whilst finding another way to put food on the table, or change what you do to find a more commercial output. As with anything creative, though, you may just have to face the possibility that you're not good enough.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 01:50 PM

Absolutely leveller! Its not a question of income - although income is always nice. Its the fact that the best music just isn't getting heard.

The music industry always wants product. They all dream of discovering the next big thing. And when they've got the next big tghing - you get all these albums like Rod Stewart reading the telephone directory. Sometimes an artist can sustain ten interesting albums - like the Beatles.

But in general genius doesn't work like that in folk music. Folk musicians can usually do one kind of music really well. One good idea in a career isn't bad - in fact some of us don't really ever manage that magic synthesis - though I've looked all my life.

the point is that the BBC is drawing something from those wells they keep returning to, but its not water that will sustain a living folk culture.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 02:38 PM

Big Al - apologies if you've mentioned this already - but if you're in favour of Folk Awards of some kind, may I ask who'd vote for the winners? And indeed, who'd come up with the shortlist?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: John P
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 02:42 PM

So screw the "music business" and "product". If you don't like their game, don't play it. But please quit your bitching about things that no one is doing on purpose. Everyone who does anything has to live within certain parameters. If you think that folk club and festival organizers don't walk a very narrow line, you aren't thinking. You are, however, ignoring their concerns and blaming them for something for which there is no solution. Don't like what the BBC presents? The answer is easy -- don't listen to the BBC. If you want unknowns to be heard at festivals, start a festival and book unknowns (and see how long you last).

Most importantly -- start acting like the folk musician you claim to be and focus on folk music instead of whether or not you or anyone else is being ignored by people who have no effect on the real playing of real music in the first place. Play your best and enjoy the playing of others. If your complaint is that you can't make a decent living playing your music, get a job.

But please stop you incessant whining!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 03:25 PM

no, Al has a right to challenge the folk establishment, and state his opinions.
to some extent he is right, folk music is not the music of the working class, that does not mean that there are not some working class people who like it, but the vast majority of the people to who it appeals are the sort of people who like art music [and most of those are middle class], that is what most of it is . folk music as we know it and how it is categorised is really art music.
in my opinion,in the last 40 years the uk folk revival has become more like the commercial pop world, this has been as a result of a mistaken belief that folk music has to be mainstream, what generally happens when something becomes commercialised in an attempt to make it mainstream, is that it can change its character and lose some of its original qualities and lose   its closeness to its roots.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 03:39 PM

"in my opinion,in the last 40 years the uk folk revival has become more like the commercial pop world, this has been as a result of a mistaken belief that folk music has to be mainstream, what generally happens when something becomes commercialised in an attempt to make it mainstream, is that it can change its character and lose some of its original qualities and lose   its closeness to its roots."

Do you think that's quite right? Perhaps it's more that the more commercial sounding records do better in the market place? But that's not the folk music genre as a whole lurching into Spice Girls land, that's just the few that do becoming picked up by radio stations and music buyers who prefer their music shiny and easy-listenable.

I think the overwhelming amount of music made in the Folk Music genre, as wide as that is nowadays, is significantly NOT particularly commercialised. Most of it, I'd say, is produced by people like you Dick, with (I imagine) absolutely no thought of getting nominated for a Beeb FA or similar. It's just the stuff that sounds like other stuff on the radio, tends to get picked up by people looking for things to play on the radio. It'd take a really major breakthrough - a folk world version of Nirvana's huge success or something - for people to look beyond a nice sounding guitar and an acceptable voice.

I don't think the folk world is full of people looking to make themselves famous. If so, they've chosen the wrong genre.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 04:41 PM

I must admit that when I began this thread I didn't know the direction it would head in.

I was curious as to the organisation that was doing these awards - I became aware of them because I am linked up via Facebook with one of the people nominated.

To me the problem with this is that I am not familiar with all the nominees - the "Ragged Kingdom" CD by June Tabor and Oysterband is indeed excellent and what I've heard of Rapunzel and Sedayne seems to have a great 'feel' about it, but I don't feel qualified to vote in a lot of these categories - I'm a bit dubious about the X factor type of online vote for these things.

Personally performing in folk clubs has given us a group of friends which has expanded over the years to include many people in various parts of the UK plus a few in the US and other parts of the world. Anything else is a bonus as we only started out performing relatively late in life.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 05:01 PM

Just to illustrate a point, the story of the only time we ever tried to folk "name drop".

A few years back I was booked at a festival which was in the time when councils were being generous with funding for these things. They put us up in a hotel which was also being used by some of the top acts like Eliza Carthy - although we never actually ran across her Julia thought she would mention this illustrious company in her staff room on the Monday when we got back.

Not only had none of her staff heard of Eliza, they'd not heard of Martin Carthy either.

Perhaps this puts things in perspective a bit?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 05:10 PM

Take the BBC face of Folk, Country, and jazz

Carthy, Gillian Welch, Courtney Pine.

Can you imagine any of these people handling a new years eve gig, where people get up and boogie? And I'm afraid without the spit and sawdust - it ain't folkmusic

Frankly, yes I could. What makes you think they couldn't handle it Al?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 07:26 PM

Just my opinion - why do you think they will have acquired a skill they have never had to acquire. I think it's all too typical of the low regard professional non-star musicians are held in. Its a definite skill - playing to REAL folks. Not the forelock tugging middle class serfs of the folk audience. People willing to be bored shitless to preserve the tradition of beimg bored, whilst feeling superior.

And why shouldn't I state my very sincerely held opinions, founded on years of observation. What are these awards, etc - except a stating of the opposite viewpoint.

All I am hearing from the opposite viewpoint is choir of sycophants. No real answer to the problem of diminishing audiences, the failure of the young musicians to produce anything memorable enough to chart. The more it fails to do, this tradition - the more inflated the claims for its importance. You must feel like Hitler in the bunker - thinking up medals for non existent victories, manouevres for non existent armies.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 08:48 PM

I'd just like to say GSS - thankyou for standing up for me. I appreciate it. You are a great songwriter and that version of your Richard the 3rd song - you and carthy needs up dating.


I am Martin's number one fan. I actually understand what a good guitarist he is, whereas these other buggers - I don't know what they see in him - but its definitely not the revolutionary force in music that he tries to be.

the thing about that generation, they don't or won't get to grips with recording technology. Perhaps if he got his guitar sound as big as a cathedral - they might understand.

Derek Brimstone was exactly the same - his son Greg is a really good record producer - does stuff for the Levellers and many more. Derek wouldn't let Greg put any reverb or echo on the guitar - just insisted that the sound was totally dry, Greg had his head in his hands. just that generation.

Anyway, I'd get it re-recorded . Its better than it sounds.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 08:53 PM

You must feel like Hitler in the bunker - thinking up medals for non existent victories, manouevres for non existent armies.
That is very god Al,I wish I had written that,
Do you know what gives me real pleasure its when i go busking, and people come up to me and say your really good you should be playing in clubs,[including Ronnie Drew who gave me a fiver] and i think to myself" are you listening leigh on f###### sea""""bothy southport" not one gig in 35 years.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 11 - 09:22 PM

I never knew Ronnie. Paul Downes told me he did a gig with Ronnie and he sung shoals of herring, just to one E major chord all the way through. The first time I appreciated his genius was when he sang Come out you Black and tans as an introduction to Kenneth Brannagh's production od Shadow of a Gunman. Fucking brilliant!

The man deserves sainthood status, at least!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 04:35 AM

why do you think they will have acquired a skill they have never had to acquire

Do you really think they've got where they are without any struggle?

And why shouldn't I state my very sincerely held opinions, founded on years of observation. What are these awards, etc - except a stating of the opposite viewpoint

No problem with that. I'll state my opinion then that this is one of the bitterest threads I've read on Mudcat which is quite an achievement. Well done. I think you could make your point, which I have some sympathy with by the way, much better without pissing on the careers of successful musicians and making insulting gross generalisations about folk (or other) audiences.

Anyway, if tickets are still available to the Carthy, Welch and Pine gig I'm interested. I'll even heckle a bit if it makes you feel better.


Pete (honorary middle-class unreal person, 2nd Tenor, choir of sycophants and bumkissers)

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:10 AM

The funny thing is, in a couple of hours I'm off to London to play a NYE gig with Martin and Eliza Carthy in front of several thousand non-folkies who want to "get up and boogie". I anticipate that they'll cope with it fine, thanks.

Just saying...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 06:05 AM

Is it worth pointing out that the Spiral Earth Awards have nothing to do with the BBC? As the thread title suggests, we're talking about something independent here where such projects as the three that I've been involved in to a greater or lesser extent (50% of Rapunzel & Sedayne, 5% of Oak, Ash, Thorn, 3% Woodbine & Ivy Band) might find themselves deservedly nominated. But not around here, where The Real Folk Police (i.e. those sixty-something singer-songwriters who think it's still 1965) will determinedly tell you it's not Proper Folk because it doesn't appeal to their fantasy demographic of who the Proper Folk are. As for professional, whilst I've been paid handsomely for my work over the years, I would never consider myself a professional folkie, and certainly not with respect of any of the projects featured on the Spiral Earth Awards, which are very much real labours of real love, which is why our resident Real Folk Police DCI's determination to piss all over them with his sour grapes is all the more irksome. Of course it's fine when one of his songs is up for a sycophantic middle-class BBC award, then threads are opened for transparant sycophantic middle-class vote rigging and everyone contributes with good humour and typical middle-class syncophantic back-slapping good-old-Al joviality. Over here, meanwhile, good-old-Al is busy stomping on lovingly made sandcastles and kicking sand in the faces of those he perceives to be lesser mortals in a tantrum of inverted snobbery driven by an embittered elitism that really has no place in the merry world of folk cameraderie: where our achievements are applauded, and respect is always due, and we are all glass-half-full optimists and very happy indeed with our lot in life; appreciative of the fact that there will always be a diversity of horses for a diversity of courses. This is, after all, The Music That We (supposedly) Love...

So please, Big Al, do us all a favour and feck off already with your inane and pityful whinging - not only it is undignified, cringeworthy, and grotesque, but it's entirely misplaced in a realm where people work very hard indeed for their art, their craft and whatever modest critical recognition they might garner simply because they believe (without compromise) that Traditional Folk Song has a contemporary relevance that is obviously lost on the likes of you, boyo. Best thing to do if you don't understand it, a) either ask nicely or b) shut the feck up and concentrate on what you do know, but for God's sake enough of the conspiracy theories because you really haven't a fecking clue what you're talking about.   

S O'P (Bleary & hungover after a very late & very fine session in one of the last remaining truly working-class flee pit folk clubs in the North West of England with some of the finest musicians & singers & punters to boot...)

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 06:14 AM

where there is discord, let me bring light!

happy new year!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 07:40 AM

PS Yes I REALLY believe none of them ever did a tough pub gig. And I'm pretty sure they couldn't. Why would they even know the technical stuff you have at your fingertips to eat a room like that?

Seems to me all the reasoned argument comes from me, and all the bitterness and personal abuse issues from your side.

Nevertheless, soul of courtesy and the milkman of human kindness that I am - I wish you all a happy new year.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 08:02 AM

Why would anyone want to do a "tough pub gig"? And why should crowd control be thought a more desirable skill than musicianship which can command an audience's attention and respect?

As for "bitterness" and "reasoned argument" - I suggest Al goes back and re-reads his previous posts, not just on this but on pretty much every other thread he's contributed to.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 08:49 AM

"Why would anyone want to do a "tough pub gig"? And why should crowd control be thought a more desirable skill than musicianship which can command an audience's attention and respect?"

If you'd done it - you wouldn't need to ask. Folk music that doesn't have commerce with real "folks" - is something else. Why did some of these songs survive and some just fall into disuse, and have to be disinterred from libraries.

its the reason those 60's bands that had been to hamburg in the Beatles era had that cutting edge.

Despite the abuse heaped on me in this thread. I have no bitterness towards you - more sort of compassion.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:14 AM

Yet didn't the Beatles pack up live gigs because they couldn't hear themselves play over the racket from a live audience?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

Mind you, I do agree with the "cutting edge" bit - sometimes folk can become a bit too "cosy" I suppose, yet on the other hand not everyone wants to do "fast and loud and in yer face and in a bunch of keys"

Horses for courses?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:42 AM

Yes indeed. And Django found his nightclub audiences garrulous and bloody annoying.

In those days - there was no option. technology was shit.

I wonder if any of these performance colleges do a course on how to set up a PA in a shitty pub with sound blocking structures hanging from the ceilings.

I couldn't do it after five years playing in folk clubs. But working mens club bands and country and western bands = by watching them I eventually learned.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 09:49 AM

Seems to me all the reasoned argument comes from me, and all the bitterness and personal abuse issues from your side.

Well I'll be off back to my bunker then. Carry on...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 10:13 AM

people that resort to insults and telling people to feck off show the bankruptcy of their arguments.
Al is correct, 9o per cent of the folk club performers would not be able to perform and entertain in a pub to a non folk audience.
as i understand it what Jim moray is talking about is something slightly different the people who are going to see the carthys and jim moray are going there because they wish to see those particular artists.
or perhaps i have misunderstood the new years gig, jim please correct me if i am wrong.
Als point is correct, most at a guess 90 per cent of folk club performers have a repertoire that is only suited to folk club audiences, those who have, are generally those performers who have also worked different circuits, such as folk comedians, or people who have done working mens clubs or people such as th ex spinners, hughie jones etc, Or some of the irish performers who have worked irish pubs, and who have in their repertoire what folk club performers might consider hackneyed material, but which because it has entered the mainstream is popular with non folk club audiences , such as wild rover, kilgarry mountains dublins fair city, sloop john b, good night irene, etc

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Crowsis flying through
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 10:21 AM

Briefly dropping into MC this afternoon and so pleased to see this thread (albeit not much of the content, but I'll pass on that) highlighting the Spiral Earth alternative folk award noms.

Spleen, you must be proper chuffed at the Folk Police turnout, and deservedly so too, good job! A fledgling independent label, backing outsiders and refreshingly un-MOR folk musicians - including the lovely Rapunzel and Sedayne (playing you to some friends for my 'Longest Night' feast this year btw., and most appropriately atmospheric it was too).

If Mudcatters aren't fond of the alternative face of folk, I guess that's too bad. For me, I couldn't be more pleased, both for the music (which as SO'P said, has been long overdue a shake-up) and for some jolly lovely and hard-working people. Here's wishing you a wonderful musical year ahead!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 11:24 AM

"Al is correct, 9o per cent of the folk club performers would not be able to perform and entertain in a pub to a non folk audience."

I don't disagree, but so what? Most of them aren't attempting to do so. I don't suppose the Royal Philharmonic would be very good at entertaining a pub audience either. It's not an appropriate yardstick.

The problem with Al's argument is that he seems to dismiss any audience which is actually interested in folk music as not being "real folks". If they want to sit and listen to the music they must be middle-class and not worth bothering with. Of course, he knows nothing about their actual backgrounds.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 11:53 AM

Howard, he is right most folk audiences are middle class, so what?well its a fact.
it is an appropriate yardstick, its horses for courses, to pretend otherwise is dishonest.
because what i understand al to be saying is that most working class people are not interested in folk music , it is not the peoples music., and yet there is this myth that is perepetrated by some in the folk revival that folk music is working class music, the majority[not all] of the working class are not interested in it
most[not all] working class people are fed a diet of bums, tits, sport, and are not encouraged to be anything other than consumers of commercial music.
it is the nature of the capitalist/consumer system.
however,Howard I know something of your back ground, I know where you went to school etc etc, and i would call you fairly typical of most folk club audiences you are middle class, now that in my eyes is not a criticism ,just a fact.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:02 PM

The working classes began to abandon folk music as soon as they could afford a wireless. The middle classes, by and large, won't touch folk music with a barge pole.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:03 PM

This seems to have developed into a debate about class which, as far as i'm concerned, doesn't exist as portrayed here. Please tell me what you mean when you talk about middle class and working class (any upper class folk enthusiasts?).

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:22 PM

leveller, if you are trying to pretend that you dont know the difference between working class and middle class, I am afraid I have not got the time to waste on explaining something that you are pretending you do not know.
yes, I am n upper classfolk enthusiast, have you heard my shanty hooray henry

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:42 PM

I don't think you've quite grasped what I am saying.

I don't think the working classes abandoned folk music. Really at the coming of the music hall - rather than the radio.

I think they re-defined it, because by definition - they have ownership of it.

Anyway no point in arguing about it. You might be right, I might be wrong.

Put it this way though. I am quietly confident that the present crew will one day look as irrelevant to the general thrust of folk music as the neo-Georgians are to the history of Eng. Lit.

Folk music is waiting for its TS Eliot.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 12:55 PM

Dick I'm not pretending anything - I think you're basing your entire argument on an out-moded idea of class. I suspect that you're declining to explain because you can't. Is your concept of class based on the job you do, wealth, education, where you live.....? I'm a professional writer and I earn a reasonable living, am largely self-educated and I'm an anarchist and a republican, so what does that make me? More to the point, what bearing does it have on my love of folk music?

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:08 PM

an out moded idea of class.
right, start going to working mens clubs, you will not see many people from the middle or upper classes, few will be reading william morris or karl marx or freidrich engels or the mao tse tung or even ewan macColls journeyman between the different acts.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:09 PM

"I think they re-defined it, because by definition - they have ownership of it."

It seems to me you're falling into the trap of saying that because folk music was working-class music, working-class music is therefore folk music. If that's your point of view, I can begin to understand your argument. However that's very different from "folk music" which, as someone said earlier in the thread, is an artistic movement.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:14 PM

A Writer an anarchist and a republican, what does it make you, a subversive and a contradiction, how can you be an anarchist and a republican at the same time that is bullshit.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:25 PM

There was a group of anarchists who used to go in the same pub as I did. They had a meeting to draw up a constitution!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 01:41 PM

Yo, CS! Good to see you flying by this spot of seasonal mayhem & ceremonial misrule: it's hoose agen hoose and town agen town - and if you see a man, knock him down (but don't hurt him!).

*

Folk music is waiting for its TS Eliot.

For your generation you've already had him in the form of Bob Dylan - and you've all been sucking on his impotent middle-class dick ever since. The times they are a changing... if only!

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 02:16 PM

oh no not bob dylan, more bullshit, the man wrote 3 or 4 very good songs, nicked one from someone else, borrowed dylan thomas name, and was nothing other than a popstar who couldnt sing but could write and did write about six memorable songs.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 02:55 PM

I'm really puzzled why you are all so antagonistic? Am I not ALLOWED to have these ideas? To express them....?

I'm not saying folk music has to be working class - but somethings missing somewhere when its not. Like a faultline. I'm surprised more of you don't sense it.

I can only put it down to the fact that you are so in thrall to the aliens from Planet BBC, that your critical faculties are a bit screwed up.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

Antagonistic? Not a bit of it, BAW - just responding in kind really. And with you it's not so much ideas as ideology - heavy handed Folk Law that operates on the principle of if you say something often enough it becomes true). Not good - especially when the sort of thing you're proposing would be complete anathema to a left-field Dylan-hating post-revivalist traddy like me. And the most influence the BBC has ever had on my Folk Life (apart from The White Heather Club, natch) was back when I used to watch Bagpuss re-runs with my daughter in the early 80s, though I must admit to being inspired by the occasional adaptation of M R James (Jonathan Miller's Oh Whistle and I'll Come to You is especially cherished) or episode of Dr Who (The Daemons). Now ITV on the other hand - they gave us Children of the Stones - seminal Folk Horror that lingers yet; they even had Wyrd Morris Dancers in that...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 08:05 PM

well the BBC had a big influence on me. Not all for the good, but I certainly learned a lot of folksongs as a child in singing together/ And it showed me lots of other folk music over the years.

The trouble is that society has changed. Democratised or something. The BBC though is still the preserve of nobs and they're getting it wrong - badly wrong.

they've stopped serving people.

How many programmes or radio stations are there for old people in residential homes? They're economically unimportant so they get nowt.

How many programmes about tradtional jazz. Trad jazz clubs are really crowded these days. Nothing about the young people playing it.

And folk music.......

Look this all of it - no bitterness, no angst....just supposing Ewan, Martin, Bert, Cecil....got it wrong.
perhaps folk music is something else. Something that folks do, in every age. no real pattern to it.
For anarchists ...you lot are very authoritarian.

Think outside the box. It won't hurt. You may end up enjoying the experience.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 11 - 10:35 PM

Its the Reithian thing really - the idea that the posh can do everything, so they should get first dibs.

Just this Christmas, some Charlie got the idea that Darcy Bussell in middle age, could do Ginger Rogers routines. That level of arrogance and ignorance, its unfathomable. My wife was the ballroom champion dancer of Nottingham. her training started when she was three. Why are we underclass so unworthy of respect...?

I guess its no wonder that growing up in this culture of imperious superiority - you guys really CAN'T think what if...........

But honest to God. it explains so much. I played hundreds of venues in my career. And I can honestly say - however badly I went down - Martin doing the acts I've seen him do, would go down even worse.

Its huge rift between English folk music and English people, using your rules. And the future is basically hopeless.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 05:01 AM

"how can you be an anarchist and a republican at the same time that is bullshit"

You're displaying your ignorance I'm afraid, Dick. Start by reading Peter Marshall's 'Demanding the Impossible' and then move on to Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin. Then, if you think that the old class structure still exists, talk to a demographer, if you can stand the smirk that will appear on his/her face. It would seem that the last 30 years have passed you by. As for the idea that you can put folk-lovers in boxes, it's simply ludicrous.

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM

perhaps folk music is something else. Something that folks do, in every age. no real pattern to it.

I've tried that on various occasions, & on at least one of which (during your sabbatical as I recall) even wished you onside - see the legend that is the 1954 and All That thread. More recently I had the epiphany that was Steamfolk, which I clarified in a couple of magazine articles, but even so the orthodoxy reacted with customary hostility despite the essentially positive thrust of my thesis. Ho hum. Broadly I'd have to agree with you, especially with respect of the overall context & usage of music & musical experience in working class culture. I feel exactly the same way about folklore, which is also a bourgeois fantasy of lower class ill-educated superstitious ignorance yielding some curious capers worthy of taxonomy & taxidermy, what? Of course a broader analysis of all this only serves to underline the futility of folk anyway: part academic fantasy, part religious comfort blanket, part DIY MOR reactionary pop nostalgia, part cultural autism, part self-styled artistic movement - but in any case (let's face it) wholly irrelevant to the majority of English Dwelling Human Beings of any class who really have better things to worry about. This makes your own position all the more worrying, Al - at least when it comes to the reality of Folk in the UK & beyond, which, one would hope, is examplified by accepting & supporting one another in a spirit of overall camaraderie no matter how we might see fit to approach 'it' as individuals. In this respect I'd say it's a matter of looking after the pence & letting the pounds look after themselves. At least that's the ideal...

The reality is somewhat different; Personal Preference is not a gateway to righteousness, and Anarchy (like Atheism) must be all inclusive. Believe it or not, this is what I strive for in life: it's called the Bigger Picture, which in practical terms means stepping out of the Fishpond of the UK Folk Scene and taking a dip in the Ocean from time to time just to keep things real, or else to stop from going completely insane. Even here on the Lancashire Coast, one might get a sense of the truly global as the Irish Sea meats with the Atlantic and all points beyond. Meanwhile, in the folk pond, it looks like someones forgot to turn the aerator on again and things are getting more than a little stagnant; the big fish are bullying the little fish in a fight for precious oxygen & resentment grows more mean spirited by the minute. At the end of the day though, all I'm truly bothered about is going to bed with a smile on my face, which isn't too difficult in the UK Folk Scene, just I'd really rather be laughing with them, rather than laughing at them, but it's a difficult one at times as things become increasingly, and painfully, negative & resentful. Are we downhearted? Not a bit - just a little disappointed really, given the reasons we have to celebrate here & nary a fecking word!

S O'P (New Year's Day 2012, listening to Purcell Sonatas of 3 Parts in a mood of general, though melancholic, optimism. Or is it more one of resignation?)

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:19 AM

So do we need a new thread about the Spiral Earth folk awards? And dare I mention that the FATEA Awards have just been announced, too?

PS - Cheers for your comments, Crowsis. Hope all is good with you...

Subject: RE: Alternative Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 12 - 07:39 AM

well its a new year. lets hope all of us is good with whats going on. or as good as possible.

Best of luck to all award winners - I'm sure they're all richly deserving people.

What would you like us to say about the Spiral Earth Awards?

Hip Hip Hooray! that sort of thing....?