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Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012

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GUEST,CS 05 Feb 12 - 10:31 AM
theleveller 05 Feb 12 - 10:26 AM
Phil Edwards 05 Feb 12 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Folknacious 05 Feb 12 - 09:44 AM
SteveMansfield 05 Feb 12 - 09:04 AM
Vic Smith 05 Feb 12 - 08:55 AM
Vic Smith 05 Feb 12 - 08:34 AM
theleveller 05 Feb 12 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,GUEST, chillybean 05 Feb 12 - 08:27 AM
Vic Smith 05 Feb 12 - 08:26 AM
Les in Chorlton 05 Feb 12 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 05 Feb 12 - 07:15 AM
doc.tom 05 Feb 12 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 05 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,selby 04 Feb 12 - 04:22 PM
Les in Chorlton 04 Feb 12 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,999 04 Feb 12 - 01:34 PM
Bainbo 04 Feb 12 - 12:46 PM
Les in Chorlton 04 Feb 12 - 12:39 PM
Dave Hanson 04 Feb 12 - 12:29 PM
Vic Smith 04 Feb 12 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,olgaj 04 Feb 12 - 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 10:31 AM

Really rocking the changes there with such a nice and pleasant selection of artists: Mumford and Sons, Laura Marling, Cara Dillon... Sounds like elevator hell music to me! I'll take my folk straight up with the the old wrinklies thankyou - roaring choruses and all - while waiting for the Fuck Buttons 2009 album Tarot Sport
I posted this on another thread actually, but here it is again because IMO it's a properly enjoyable piece of music made by young people unlike so much folk music made by young people. Basically young people should stay well away from making folk music and go and do something less boring instead ;-)
Flight of the Feathered Serpent

CS 39


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 10:26 AM

"the people doing the moaning are those who don't stand a snowball's of ever getting a nomination regardless how the rules are re-jigged. I mean, have you Googled some of them? There, I said it."

Well, I wasn't going to say that myself but........


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 10:04 AM

The young performer must preferably not perform his or her own original material, but if she/he does deviate from traditional repertory, it must resemble a ballad about cow farming, ploughing, sailing, or other such traditional subject matter about which the performer will invariably know nothing about

No idea where you're getting all this from. There's a club I know where the same faces line the walls week in, week out, and some nights I lower the average age by going in (and I'm 51); but you'll never hear a traditional song there, and it's a job to get anyone to join in on a chorus. There's another where the same regular audiences face the same regular performers, give or take a few, week after week after week; but given that half the regular performers are twenty-something singer-songwriters, that's probably not the kind of place you're complaining about. Then there's a singaround, where traditional songs reign and the choruses can get a bit slow; that's obviously not the kind of place you're thinking of either, as anyone under 30, new or both is welcomed with open arms and much applause.

In short, I think 'folk club' covers a huge range of different types of club, and you're combining all the worst aspects of lots of different clubs without including any of the good aspects. Your folk club sounds horrible, but I suspect you've only been there in your imagination.


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 09:44 AM

Chillybean makes good points. Not comfortable reading, but the truth sometimes hurts

Steve Mansfield is absolutely correct about the need for anonymity (if desired) in the current world. Which doesn't stop people breaking cover if they so desire.

Why do I have this strong impression from self-publicist Emma Hartley's latest article that the people doing the moaning are those who don't stand a snowball's of ever getting a nomination regardless how the rules are re-jigged. I mean, have you Googled some of them? There, I said it.

Conspiracy? What conspiracy?


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 09:04 AM

If (and it's a big if) I were one of the judges on something like the Folk Awards, I think the very first thing I would insist on would be anonymity.

Given the prevalence of The Great Folk Conspiracy Theory you don't stand a cat in hell's chance of satisfying everyone with your nominations; your email and phone and Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn (and maybe even letter box) will be deluged by the marketing departments of all the major labels flogging their latest bloke-with-guitar product, combined with all the relentless self-publicists who would do well to put as much effort and time into the actual music as they do into their barrage of promotion; and at the end of the day you'll just end up being accused of being a corporate shill anyway.

Derek's right - I wouldn't be at all surprised if the BBC didn't give up in this face of this wholly manufactured storm in a teacup, and kick the Folk Awards into touch. And then within 6 months the very same people getting on their high horses about The Great Folk Conspiracy will be whining that the BBC's 'unfair to folk music' by not broadcasting more ...


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 08:55 AM

The live folk club circuit consists of audiences aged 50+, who just want to hear the same boring, cliche-ridden, derivative take on "folk music" that they have been going to clubs and listening to for years.

Don't moan about this on Mudcat - get out there and do it the way you want it to be. I've been organising a weekly club that books old, young and middle-aged performers for 45 years now. Within the last year we have been able to welcome school-aged floor singers & musicians and they have delighted our mixed aged audience. I put hours each week into websites, producing and distributing posters, posting our forthcoming gigs on all the folkie forums and on MySpace and Facebook. As a result our establishment has a healthy four-figure bank balance so that sometimes we can afford to take a chance on talented young performers even although we reckon that we will probably lose money on them.

Chillybean, there is an element of truth in your complaints and I sometimes go to other folk clubs and think, 'What the hell am I doing here?' - but I must say that your post shows a negativity of thinking that cannot possibly do you any good. As I said in my first post in this thread, "I'm afraid that nobody owes you a living."


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 08:34 AM

It would be difficult to quantify, but it seems to me that the proportion of 1960s/1970s young folk performers who took an extra interest in organising and facilitating folk clubs, dances and festivals as part of their interest is a higher proportion than of the young performers today.

Am I right in making this assumption/observation?

And if I am, why is this?

In other words, where are the young organisers to go with the explosion of young performers?


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 08:30 AM

Wow, this thread has managed to combine those two old chestnuts, the Great Folk Conspiracy Theory, usually peddled by people who want to be pros but can't make it, and The What is Folk? argument, usually peddled by those who think that they have the monopoly on the folk genre.

Should be interesting (not).


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,GUEST, chillybean
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 08:27 AM

I've read this site loads, but have never posted on here before. I feel the need to now...

Closed-door policies define the folk scene from the ground up.

The live folk club circuit consists of audiences aged 50+, who just want to hear the same boring, cliche-ridden, derivative take on "folk music" that they have been going to clubs and listening to for years. They do not go to a folk club to be challenged or to have their minds opened; they go because it is what they have done their whole lives, and they don't wish to change. Heaven forbid some young upstart should come along and sing anything vaguely pop or jazz or world music -tinged, despite the fact that it is near impossible in this day and age to make music that is not a blend of many varied musical influences, unless you somehow actually live inside a folk club. The only young performers who ARE welcomed must not be showy, must not offend by being "stars" or appearing to get above their station. Any hint of the suggestion that they made an effort by getting dressed up for the occasion screams of X Factor style vanity. They must preferably sing in a thin, airy voice with no evidence of vocal training (women) or a baritone warble in the manner of a Sussex farmer crossed with Jon Boden (men). These young performers must not expect the folk club to be in any way enthusiastic or reverent until they have proven their worth, and therefore will be met by a silent room full of stern people (mostly men) with their arms folded and an expression that clearly says "go on then. impress us. we've seen it all before." The young performer must preferably not perform his or her own original material, but if she/he does deviate from traditional repertory, it must resemble a ballad about cow farming, ploughing, sailing, or other such traditional subject matter about which the performer will invariably know nothing about, what with them being a 22-year-old from Norwich. If the performer DOES sing a traditional chorus song, they must expect the audience to join in on every chorus but at a completely different speed (usually about half as slow) so that any sense of pace or energy they tried to put into the song is eclipsed by a dirge much more preferable to the geriatrics in the audience. The performer must be prepared for audience members to sing throughout the verses, too, although they will not know the words, will not sing in tune, and will not sing quietly. One idiot near the front of the stage will probably turn towards the window, close his eyes, and periodically whistle throughout the entire set.

Folk club promoters/bookers are well aware that this is their audience. And instead of booking young, original, energetic performers who might encourage some new audience members, they are too concerned in making sure that their veterans are kept happy. This means giving them the same old same old, week in, week out. They never make any more money, and they never increase their audience. They never spend any money on actually PROMOTING the gigs, with classy posters or adverts in magazines - they just advertise to their existing audience. In my experience, the vast majority don't seem to research new music or new acts, either. And it's scary how many folk clubs still don't have a proper website or even email. But this is representative of their generation, sadly.

This is how folk music is going to kill itself. Labels and agents see the opportunity to make money from young, bland acts who have pandered to the folk club circuit's narrow interpretation of "folk", by selling the music back to the same elderly audiences who championed their dated, affected, derivative sound in the first place. The agents make sure the acts are booked at the folk festivals that they also run - Sidmouth, Beverley, etc. The labels then make sure that their acts get played on Mike Harding and are nominated for the R2FAs. Suddenly, the awards are completely representative of an older generation's choices - a combination of long-standing favourite veterans of the scene, and the personality-free, inoffensive youngsters like Lucy Ward.

I got into folk music as a teenager after Kate Rusby and Eliza Carthy were nominated for the Mercury Music Prize. They were skilled, dynamic, professional, original and impressive enough to stand alongside the best artists from across all other genres of British music. This is why even people who don't know folk know these artists' names. From then on until I began seeking out like-minded folkies and performing myself, my initiation to the scene came from watching the BBC4 coverage of the R2FAs, Celtic Connections, and Cambridge.

I hardly think that any youngster watching over the past three or four years will have been as excited by what they've seen as I was about The Waifs, Seth Lakeman and Cara Dillon. Last year, the best and most convincing performers by a mile were Chris Wood and Barbara Dickson - doesn't exactly give the impression that folk is a thriving young genre, does it? Yet at the same time, young audiences have been captivated by Laura Marling, Mumford & Sons, and suchlike... and instead of embracing this, the folk club-goers turn their noses up and say "well they aren't folk as WE know it! And they never played the folk clubs did they...?" LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE BOOKED THEM?!

YOUNG performers trying to do something NEW with folk should be playing to an audience of YOUNG people who are receptive to it. Not tailoring their set to suit a bunch of old gits. It's not a good situation when the performer is the youngest person in the folk club by about 25 years... but it happens all the time.


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 08:26 AM

I wrote:-
"The number of gigs available to folk performers has diminished greatly with the years. "


Why is this? Well there are a variety of reasons.

* The generation of organisers who started running clubs in the 1960s and 1970s were really plentiful. Folk clubs in every town in the UK. Some lost money, others lost interest, some found it too much work and lessened their commitment (monthly rather than weekly etc.) Most of these organisers were performers, some were pro- musicians, some semi- pro, some enthusiastic amateurs.

* Every university and college in the country had a thriving folk club that booked many guest performers. Some had sizeable grants (mine did) from the Students' Union to help them with this. How many universities have folk clubs in 2012.

* As recently as 2007, I was organising tours of Arts Centres, either for an African musician friend of mine or for Shirley Collins and her presentations. Though often staffed by enthusiastic amateurs, theese establishments had hefty ACE grants. Their programmes were full of the established and the rising stars of the folk scene. I still get circulars from many of these establishments. It is obvious that cuts in grants are making these places much more circumspect in their programming; those that remain open, that is. Five years since I organised such tours - I wouldn't like to be doing so in 2012.

*******
I

Back in the 1970s Tina and I were getting quite a lot of work in folk clubs, festivals and playing in our dance band - yet we never seriously considered trying to make a living from our music. Even in those much more encouraging times, it seemed far to precarious. We wanted a family, the security of owning our own home etc. so we stuck to our day jobs - and both did very well in them. We have continued to enjoy a good semi-pro connection with folk music and this has extended since our retirement - but we never actually hassle for gigs, we just take the ones that we are offered that we fancy, which is not all of them. I feel that we made the right choice.

One guilty feeling that I have occurs when I have had conversations with folk music professionals who have been having a hard time and they blurt out hoe little thay have been earning.... and I gulp as I realise that we are earning more from music ourselves.


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 07:55 AM

Thanks Derek, much wisdom

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 07:15 AM

A few observations.

As others have said, Vic is right about the financial liability of folk club organisers and quality of guests.

I am amazed at one part of the folk scene's determination to wreck the biggest annual showcase for folk music in the media. The time will come when the BBC gets fed up of this bitching and says, "sod it, if you don't want the awards, we won't run them".

It may be a great showcase, but it is just one aspect of the diversity of the folk scene, which ranges from the small, local singaround and music session, morris side dancing outside the pub, local folk clubs, ceilidhs, local festivals, concerts at the well-known concert halls up and down the country, and the biggest folk festivals - cambridge, Shrewsbury, Sidmouth and Towersey. It's everything from singer-songwriters to unaccompanied ballads. Rejoice in that diversity and strive to make all of it better. There must be a cascade effect down from the folk awards media coverage to all these events.

The Folk Awards are not the Brits, which covers pop music and which by its nature therefore will be dependent on fashion. Folk music is about tradition - it is inevitable that some names will crop up every few years or even every year (though I bet an analysis of all the nominations over 13 years would show a turnover).

And yes, I am sure there are very good singers and songwriters in local clubs and festivals that some people rate more highly than the people nominated. There is no fixed marking scheme. But just look at the song nominated this year about the Morecambe cockle-pickers. Christy Moore heard it on a Cd put out by the Bothy Folk Club in Southport - the song is written by one of their residents. A great song, given prominence by a great singer.

I find that the nominations do not completely reflect what Mike plays on his programme. Yes, most of the songs / music have been played on his programme but he also plays a lot of other stuff that doesn't feature. Perhaps these are the songs that John from Kemsing has in mind - and the point is that when it comes to nominations, they don't feature in the final lists.

I have faith in the process. Suggestions that the results are rigged are absurd. I am on the panel of judges and I see all the documents sent out to ensure fairness. Requests to publish the list of judges would, if followed, just shift the argument from the music to the credentials of the judges. What might be an idea - as suggested elsewhere - is to publish the list of all the nominations, and I think that would show that a wide variety of artists and music are nominated - it's just that some of them don't get enough nominations as the ones that get chosen.

Derek Schofield


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: doc.tom
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 06:01 AM

Vic has it absolutely right - and BB & I work on both sides of the scene. And so has GUEST,John from Kemsing.

For the great wide world out there, it's rather a parallel to the trend whereby, if you read the headlines, only stuff funded by the Arts Council was ART. We're now getting to where the stuff that is media promoted as folk becomes the only folk there is. That's life.

If some of that stuff IS folk, then I need a new word for the stuff I love - and 'traditional music' is too narrow. It's the way of the world er.... folks!


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 05 Feb 12 - 05:51 AM

I have no gripe with the BBC, or any other media organisation for that matter, giving awards to anybody they consider deserves it. My objection is that some of the content then BBC peddle is classified under "folk music". To me some of it has as much to do with "folk music" as admirable Morris sides have to do with ballet.


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,selby
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 04:22 PM

As a old / ex folk club organiser I agree with Vic the bottom line on booking acts for us was if we could not cover the cost of the artist from door takings it came from our own pockets.
People would only turn up for who they knew, not the new best thing since sliced bread who was taking the whole world by storm. Unfortunately sad but true and I suspect much the same now.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 03:29 PM

But it's not just bungs of the financial kind we should be concerned about should we?

Next it will be free camping passes for festivals, reduced rates on buses from one festival to another. Some judges have already made it clear that crates of Coop own brand low alcohol bitter can pave the way to stardom -ish.


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 01:34 PM

Someone could make hundreds of pounds off of folk music. It's the thin edge of the wedge. Next someone will want gifts in beer or Morris outfits.

That's it. Look for people wearing Morris outfits. There's yer trouble.


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Bainbo
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 12:46 PM

I saw one of the finalists in the best original song category at a local club last week. During the gig, the organiser announced from the stage: "Well, we voted for you. We're among the judges, and nobody's told us to keep it secret."

Of all the things to have conspiracy theories about ... folk music awards?


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 12:39 PM

Same old same old same old.

Why am I bothering? I trust Mike Harding I have no reason to think he would do anything dishonest

L in C#


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 12:29 PM

Vic, nevertheless there is still no transparency, names are kept secret so what do you expect, I was a trade Union official for a large part of my working life, accept nothing, question everything until all is clear and open.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 12:08 PM

Firstly, though no supporter of the Folk Awards as my record on Mudcat shows, I still do not approve of the way Emma Hartley goes about her campaign of casting doubts on the honesty of the Folk Awards. She has one narrow line of argument and she repeats it ad infinitum. She is quoted in this article and the whole thing reads as though Emma has had a strong influence on its construction.

The word "Mafia" is correctly spelled in the original article.

Secondly, let's look in a realistic manner at the current situation for young musicians. I do feel sorry for the young performers who are trying to make their mark, but they really need to look at the overall situation and see why thy are not getting a mass of work.
* The number of gigs available to folk performers has diminished greatly with the years. Not only are there many fewer clubs, but those that there are are booking fewer guests - fortnightly, monthly or whatever.
* The folk scene differs from the pop & rock scene in that the loyalty of the fans to someone they appreciate continues often for decades - so Carthy, Kirkpatrick, Gaughan and all those of their generation are still doing many gigs and will continue to get booked for as long as they want to. This is not an ephemeral scene.
* The best of the young performers do get accepted into the folk scene - and once they have made their mark, they too will continue to work. Nobody gets rich and retires early from performing folk music.
* So why do club organisers like myself book an act each week that will fill their rooms? Because, even though the better performers charge more, there is a much higher chance of covering your costs. Why do we not often take chances on the unknown beginners how ever promising they may be? Because years of experience tells us that us that we are likely to lose money.

No conspiracy to keep anyone out, just the simple facts of life. I listen to and watch many demos, Youtubes, Myspace etc. and it's amazing how many I find unsatistactory, derivative and plain dull. I still feel very sorry for the youngsters struggling to make a mark, but I'm afraid that nobody owes them a living,


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Subject: Independent Article on Folk Awards 2012
From: GUEST,olgaj
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 11:35 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/could-it-all-be-a-fiddle-folk-stars-tell-the-bbc-to-reveal-who-judges-awards-6358939.html

Anyone read this and what do you think?

Personally I think there is a Folk Maffia or we wouldn't keep seeing the same names coming up on Festival Line Ups and award nominations year after year. I've known lots of good singer/songwriters, musicians and bands over the years who don't stand a chance in hell of getting heard widely because they are not connected to already recognised 'names'. Local folk clubs and small festivals that pay very little seem to be the only way to get into the scene and even then it is unlikely that demos actually get listened to unless they are recommended by 'someone in the know'. As a band we consider ourselves very lucky to have been booked for small festivals such as Moira Furnace,Spratton,Doncaster, Dulverton and this year Folk Station on the Isle of Wight. The only opportunity for having music aired on the radio appears to be on community radio which by its very nature is local and only has a small catchment.

OK over to you.


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