BS: The US lunatic right

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 02:26 AM

2. Religion plays a very small role in society, not forbidden, but not compulsory. UK

4. Speech is free and the media varied. US/UK
5. There are few if any guns.UK

7. The government does not execute its people. UK

11. Education of children is universal, free and secular. US/UK
12. Other species are respected, valued and protected.US
13. Everyone secretly votes, every vote is openly counted independent of government. US/UK

18. Natural disasters bring massive state support for the hurt and homeless and helpless. US
19. The old, the sick, the disabled, are cared for. US

24. The balance between life at work and life at home is a healthy one.US/UK

My guess is that I don't know much more about the UK than you do about the US.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 04:36 AM

999, I like that list. It is truly idealistic. And that is most likely where it will stay. I think the key is honest media. I believe that if people were properly informed that they would make the right decisions about everything else. I do not think we have anything like honest media, and because of the corporate nature and fear-baiting it won't be happening any time soon. But all the points are important. In fact, I'm going to give this list "legs" with the folks I know and with my elected officials. Thanks!

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 05:02 AM

Ebbie.

4. US fail. While there are some limited left of centre print media voices, USTV is mostly very right wing. UK also fails but not so badly. The worst villain of the piece in both cases is Rupert Murdoch.

11. US fail. Despite bussing from long back, the free education in less favoured areas is abysmal and condemns children to failure. US university is a long way from free. UK also fails but not so badly. Both have private schools for the wealthy that create vast advantage based on wealth (and UK builds religion into schools too)

12. US fail. There is lip service to preserving the gene pool and some good records (eg the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone, something the UK has not yet achieved in Scotland, and reasonably successful management of bison) the trend over the recent-ish past has been to demolish environmental protection with Sarah Palin a leading troglodyte in this respect. UK does fairly well largely thanks to EU regulation (and for example protects bats far more vigorously) but moves are afoot in the further right parts of our illegitimate government to water down environment and species protection. Bees are a disaster area for both.

13. Both fail. The US vote counting is clearly flawed - eg the Bush election, ballot stuffing is widely suspected, and electronic voting is under considerable and possibly justified criticism. UK vote counting is almost certainly wholly honest, but the Electoral Commission is under government control.

18. US fail. Remember New Orleans? UK - not all that bad.

19. US fail. Only a limited proportion of the old get satisfactory (important word) funding support and as far as I know there is no state provision of homes for the elderly. UK marginally better although the state old age pension is inadequate and the limited range of state run elderly homes largely abysmal.

24. Both total fail. US is a total disaster for worker protection so there is in fact no protection from excessive management demands. UK is heading down the path of zero-hour contracts. At a higher level both demand 16 hour working hour days from, say, lawyers and the "lunch is for wimps" culture is still there. The UK has the longest working week and least protection from excessive working hours in Europe and the US is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 09:03 AM

"For reasons that most of us can't fathom, they believe that they will somehow get a better shake from the Republicans."

In the UK I believe that people vote for the Tories (i.e. the Right Wing Conservative Party) because they believe that that party is more likely to 'punish' those people who are perceived to be of a 'lower social status' than them. Pick a random person off the street and attempt to discuss politics with him/her and you will probably get a diatribe about "benefits cheats" and "social security scroungers" or, occasionally, "immigrants who are stealing our jobs/country". Of course, a lot of this rhetoric comes from the right wing press, but those unscrupulous bastards know exactly which 'buttons' to press!

I'm amazed that there has been so much "banker bashing" lately (things must be much, much worse than we have been told!). The average 'benefits cheats' obsessive is usually perfectly content to allow the 'high ups' get away with anything they like!

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 10:53 AM

There is much in that, Shimmers.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:00 AM

a comment on:
"That video clip does some injustice to the people of Mississippi."

The point of that clip is that it wasn't hard to find those images and opinions in Mississippi!.

There are, of course, many who do NOT think that way or use religion & prejudice to guide their every decision....but in Mississippi, as in many other parts of the South, moderates & liberals do not say too much openly! Even in areas where the poverty & ignorance are not so noticable, there is a clear undercurrent of those basic attitudes. Many of those who fought civil rights tooth & nail are still alive & kicking, and their children and grandchildren were often raised to hate...not just dislike....hate... 'liberals' and racial minorities. In this day of mass media, many southerners have learned to temper their public speech & writings, replacing overt racism & threats with coded language.

If you go to the South and visit with 'average' people about neutral stuff, like food & cars & hunting & kids & music...etc., you will find good, friendly, helpful, interesting folk. But unless you KNOW to whom you are speaking, it is wise to be careful about bringing up politics and race and The Civil War.... and Obama.
Moderate to liberal folks can express themselves IN the voting booth, but many will not admit to their neighbors who they voted for.

It will take many years for this basic attitude to change much.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 05:23 PM

Separate in intimate social relationships, but accepted in business and government, by no means is confined to the southern states; the attitude is common in Canada as well as the States, and by many is extended to the First Nations peoples.

Bill D is close to the mark; Southern cities are gaining Black administrative and service (police, fire, civil servant) personnel and there is cooperation, but close interpersonal relationships are the exception.

Religion is a factor, varied across the South but in central Georgia Catholics are mostly socially separate from Protestants, but both would support candidates who would bring more religion into government- hence the attraction of Santorum, who is avowedly against the separation of church and state.

Unspoken predjudice with regard to both race and religion in close relationships is a fact of life in North America (as it is in many parts of the world); it is closer to the surface in the South, but is not confined to that region.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 07:11 PM

I repeat: Mississipi - the poorest state in the union and with death rates for children on about a par with Botswana. And Santorum wants the rest of the USA to be like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:00 PM

Possibly the greatest problem with our US political system is the violation of the one thing (maybe the only thing) that Plato got right in The Republic.

He said something to the effect that "governing should not be easy or fun or profitable." Those who govern should have to do it because they believe it's their responsibility to do so and not for their own pleasure and profit.

We've pretty much blown that one.

John

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 12 - 11:36 PM

But, see, Richard. I don't agree with you. I think your brush is both too wide and too narrow.

4. Speech is free and the media varied US fail. While there are some limited left of centre print media voices, USTV is mostly very right wing. UK also fails but not so badly. The worst villain of the piece in both cases is Rupert Murdoch. The question is: Is speech free and the media varied? I say it is. In the US, I don't know anyone who is afraid to speak his/her mind. That, of course, does not extend to all scenarios. For instance, if you object to an individual's being arrested, if you are smart you know that it is not a good time to mouth off to the cops. Is media varied? Yes. There may be a preponderance of non-liberal reporting or venues (although the conservative doesn't see it that way) but I contend that the liberal is NOT always right- and I count myself as liberal -' as I once wrote in a song: "The good man's not always right nor the bad one always wrong." More to the point, the conservative, per se, is not automatically bad.    

11. . Education of children is universal, free and secular.US fail. Despite bussing from long back, the free education in less favoured areas is abysmal and condemns children to failure. That ain't necessarily so. That is a broad and biased and uninformed opinion. . US university is a long way from free. You said, "children." UK also fails but not so badly. Both have private schools for the wealthy that create vast advantage based on wealth (and UK builds religion into schools too)In the US too, many 'wealthy private schools' are religious schools. One has the option of not sending one's children to them. And that is freedom..

12. Other species are respected, valued and protected. I don't agree with you on this at all. Besides which I think that presenting Palin as an exemplar of such thinking is silly. US fail. There is lip service to preserving the gene pool and some good records (eg the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone, something the UK has not yet achieved in Scotland, and reasonably successful management of bison) the trend over the recent-ish past has been to demolish environmental protection with Sarah Palin a leading troglodyte in this respect. UK does fairly well largely thanks to EU regulation (and for example protects bats far more vigorously) but moves are afoot in the further right parts of our illegitimate government to water down environment and species protection. Bees are a disaster area for both.

13.3. Everyone secretly votes, every vote is openly counted independent of government. I have no doubt but that certain regions in the US have tainted elections- but see, I think that because I have no experience with it. My experience is quite different; I fail to see why you think you know better. Both fail. The US vote counting is clearly flawed - eg the Bush election, ballot stuffing is widely suspected, and electronic voting is under considerable and possibly justified criticism. UK vote counting is almost certainly wholly honest, but the Electoral Commission is under government control.

18.. Natural disasters bring massive state support for the hurt and homeless and helpless. This contention is silly. New Orleans was noteworthy because it failed so spectacularly. US fail. Remember New Orleans? UK - not all that bad.

19.The old, the sick, the disabled, are cared for. Frankly,my dear,you don't know what you are talking about. US fail. Only a limited proportion of the old get satisfactory (important word) funding support and as far as I know there is no state provision of homes for the elderly. UK marginally better although the state old age pension is inadequate and the limited range of state run elderly homes largely abysmal.

24.The balance between life at work and life at home is a healthy one. Sheesh. Both total fail. US is a total disaster for worker protection so there is in fact no protection from excessive management demands. UK is heading down the path of zero-hour contracts. At a higher level both demand 16 hour working hour days from, say, lawyers and the "lunch is for wimps" culture is still there. The UK has the longest working week and least protection from excessive working hours in Europe and the US is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 04:25 AM

The US government largely (not completely) observes the constitutional requirement not to restrain freedom of speech. But the instances of people being discriminated against for legitimate freedom of expression are too many to ignore. Remember, for example, the school bus driver who flipped the Shrub the bird? There is virtually no effective media voice in the US even for what the US calls left wing (which is right wing by most other countries' standards).

There may be some good state schools in poor areas of the US - but the general picture is reportedly as I have stated.

It is, quite simply, a fact what profit hunting is doing to the US environment, and the EPA is being filleted and disempowered.

The US discrepancies between exit polls and announced results are too large to be brushed aside.

Even here on the Mudcat we read of the experiences of those rendered homeless by vast fires - and who apparently receive no state help.

US elderly care is almost wholly available only on payment. Mostly to not for profit organisations, but still for payment.   US healthcare is the world's leading model of getting only what you pay for. Here's some hands-on experience of US disability care   http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ouch/2011/08/laurence_clark_compares_uk_and.html

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 11:53 AM

"US elderly care is almost wholly available only on payment."


Perhaps I misunderstood you. Are you saying that in the US, elderly care is not 'free', as in pre-paid? As you know, we have a different system here from what you have in the UK. I hope one day that we will have single-payer health care but we don't have it as yet.

We do have Medicare for all, Medicaid that is income-based, and General Welfare for the indigent.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 02:28 PM

This thread has left the tracks, as the left loonies add their remarks.
Child mortality has nothing to do with the subject. But these figures on the net:

Deaths/100,000, age to 14 years
Mississippi- 29
Massachusetts- 11
U. S. -18

Botswana- 47.7/ 1000, to age 5. or 4770/100,000
The figure would be higher if extended to age 14.

Mississippi worse than Botswana?

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 07:46 PM

You are proud that the child death rate in Mississippi is comparable to if not higher than Botswana?

And you want to extend the Mississippi rate to the whole of the USA?

See what I mean about lunatic right?

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:45 PM

I guess reading for accuracy is more difficult if you have to look far away down your nose...............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:56 AM

Mississippi 2011 infant death rate 9.6 per thousand, down from 10.0 the previous year. See here: http://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/4619.pdf

Botswana 11.14 see here: http://www.indexmundi.com/botswana/infant_mortality_rate.html

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 01:38 PM

Try it this way:

Black residents of Mississippi, 2010, 13.8 infant deaths/1000.

Botswana, a predominently black country, 11.76/1000, with estimate for 2011 of 10.51/1000.

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 05:10 PM

That video clip does some injustice to the people of Mississippi.

But not much. And then there's Alabama....

Subject: RE: BS: The US lunatic right
From: number 6
Date: 15 Mar 12 - 09:44 PM

rednecks

biLL