A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'

Subject: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 12:02 PM

BBC 'Folk Treasure Hunt' Strikes Gold

A.L.Lloyd and "Songs of the People"

First broadcast in 1967(?)

1 Children
2 Courting and Love
3 All in a Day's Work
4 Sea and Sailors
5 People on the Move
6 Crime and Criminals
7 Events Great and Small
8 Gone for a Soldier
9 Birds, Beasts and Fishes
10 Myths and Legend
11 Sounds of Revelry
12 The Highway to Heaven
13 The Seasons of the Year

http://www.mediafire.com/?gz5hw80fo5oer

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 01:27 PM

Thanks for pointing that out. I remember the series extremely well and I remember being staggered by the sheer quality of the material which Lloyd drew from. I'm just listening to programme 11 Sounds of Revelry and have got to An Buinnan Buí. Lloyd isn't clear as to which Seán MacDonncha is singing, but I feel sure it must be Seán Jeaic Macdonnchada. A rare gem indeed!

BTW., I suspect your dating of these programmes to 1967 is somewhat askew. I remember talking to Bert about the series while it was being broadcast, and that would most certainly have been between 1971 and 1973.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 01:57 PM

I wonder if anyone knows the exact dates of original transmission?

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 03:52 PM

Hi CJB - I think nearer 1973, certainly not 1968 unless the one I heard in London was a repeat - was self employed at the time which would take it nearly into the mid - seventies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 04:14 PM

I can date it a little more precisely than I previously thought. Bert had delivered a public lecture on whaling songs, I think, and a few of us went for a meal with him afterwards. This was immediately after Charles Parker had been made redundant from the BBC and the matter of his redundancy came up in the conversation. As far as I can remember, that would have been late 1972, and a thirteen part series would have started at the beginning of one of the seasonal schedules. EG., early September. I also recall that the series had been running for a number of weeks then, so I'd guess the conversation would have taken place about October or November. Whatever, it was certainly a dirty night. But can anyone get it closer than that?

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

A couple of days ago I was transferring some VHS tapes to DVD, two TV programmes on Ewan MacColl and one on Bert Lloyd a one hour tribute. Watching them again I was reminded of what a very warm, welcoming and interesting person Bert was. No pontificating on how this or that should be performed, just straightfoward information and explanation from a well travelled man then singing the song. Not a great voice it's true but a real one.
This is one programme which would be worth repeating but I guess there is no chance of that amid the "reality" dross that fills tv screens currently.

Hoot

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 07:28 AM

Would that be the programme which was just called Bert, and produced by Barry Callaghan? I saw it when it was first broadcast and thought it brilliant. Remember that electrifying splice between Doc Watson's guitar, as a backdrop to footage of the Southern Appalachian mountains, with a Bulgarian tambura player providing the backdrop to footage of the Bulgarian mountains? Unfortunately I didn't have a video recorder in those days, so I couldn't keep a copy, so I can't say whether it has stood the test of time.

But I would certainly like, to see it again.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 07:35 AM

"worth repeating....."
Bert made some stunning programmes, mainly for radio.
Folk Music Virtuoso, The Savage in the Concert Hall, The Lament, Balkan Gypsies, Bartok as Folklorist, The Durham Miners.... many more - mostly broadcast on The Third Programme in case somebody stumbled on them unawares!!
He did a few TV broadcasts; nice a one on Doc Watson and another on The Hebrides.
Wonder how many survived in one form or another?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 10:08 AM

Yes Owen, the very programme.

Hoot

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 01:38 PM

One Chris Metherell bought Barry Callaghan's "Garland Films" after Barry's sad passing. I'm not sure if he'd have the Bert Lloyd film mentioned above though. However I think that many of the masters or negatives of Barry's films are at the BFI - so maybe an inquiry to them may elicit any whereabouts.

As far as bringing these films / videos into the public domain there are numerous means via the web. I have noticed numerous 'lost' BBC comedy programmes being unofficially uploaded to YouTube. So long as viewers don't demand HDTV then YouTube fits the bill. Then there's Vimeo too. I have some films on Google Video - but that alas got closed down although the films are still there.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 01:43 PM

BTW there are lots of cassettes of Bert Lloyd's programmes in the Paul Graney Archive Project run by one Johnny Adams ( http://www.john-adams.info/ ). I hope that they have a digitisation conversion programme for them and will release them into the public domain.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 05:42 AM

The Bert Lloyd film was made by Barrie Gavin, not Barry Callaghan. Much of the footage of Bert "on location" was taken from other films that Barrie made with Bert. Perhaps the upcoming biography publicity might persuade Barrie to release the films on DVD, though it just depends what the contractual arrangements with BBC / ITV were (can't remember which channel they were on...)
Derek

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 05:46 AM

Whoops. Got the first name right anyway. So far as I know all Bert's tv documentaries were made for the BBC.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 06:12 AM

Re:

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny - PM
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM

A couple of days ago I was transferring some VHS tapes to DVD, two TV programmes on Ewan MacColl and one on Bert Lloyd a one hour tribute.

====

Please do not throw away the video tapes. Rewind them then store them vertically. Make sure you copy the DVD transfers to different makes of DVD - some are good and reasonably long lasting, others might only be good for a few months. Don't use disks from the 99p shop. There are specialist DVD makers who make gold-plated disks. But optical storagte media are NOT good for archival use.

Maybe you could upload said footage to a hard-drive or three.

Then you could also upload the footage to a server on the Internet.

Home recorded DVD-R / +R disks are the least reliable for archival use.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 06:39 AM

My aim was/is not to bring material into the public domain but to reduce the amount of space taken up on my shelves by VHS tapes as opposed to DVDs.

I do however have some audio tapes of musicians no longer with us who I recorded and also video discs of current musicians,these of course I would like to ensure were preserved.

So CJB what discs are suitable for archival use?

Hoot

P.S. Re 99p shops, I am old enough and wise enough to know that you only get what you pay for.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 08:27 AM

Do not optical 'burnt' disks but regularly backed up hard drives. Use three - different makes - keep them in different locations (fire, flood, etc.).

If you must use optical media then use gold-plated disks, but see ...

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090425171413AAGucU0

Its a subject that is taxing the minds of even the technicians at the LOC. For better advice from them then join the mailing list at

[e-mail]

and ask there.

Also there is the digitisation list at:

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Roberto
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 11:28 AM

Magnificent music. Do you know if there is a list of the performers and the songs? A. L. Lloyd doesn't always say who's singing...

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 12:41 PM

Don't think there ever was a list - some of them would be private recordings made by him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:21 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:-
"another on The Hebrides."

I certainly remember that one vividly. I think that Bert was working with Philip Donnellan on that programme. Two superb scenes come back from memory:-

* A Gaelic lament is being sung whilst the camera pans around the rocky landscape of Barra. After quite a while, the focus is gradually shortened and we can see that we have been looking through a window. Another pause and the camera swings slowly around reveals that we are in a fairly crowded croft room, a musical party because some people are holding instruments. Eventually the camera seeks out the face of the magnificent singer who is singing the lament and we can confirm our suspicion that the voice belongs to Flora McNeill. At the end of the song, we are told the voiceover tells us that we are in Flora's home.

* The film crew are filming an interview in the home of one of the high bards. It might have been Calum Ruadh Nicolson on Skye; certainly someone of that high status. At one time the interviewee looks around the room says in his slow, heavily accented English, something like, "How would you all feel if you were witnessing the end of your language.... the loss of all your culture?" The cameraman seeks out the faces of the film crew, producer, microphone man, etc. and they all look rather sheepish.

Memory tells me that this was one of a short series on traditional culture and that another in the series was about The Stewarts of Blair.

A lot of Philip Donellen's material became part of the Charles Parker archive in Birmingham, - http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/charlesparkerarchive - now (I believe) fully digitised with copies available through the National Sound Archive.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:36 PM

Vic,

The programme on the Hebrides was called But Still We Sing. The title comes from Calum Ruadh's comments on the destruction of Hebridean culture (if it was Calum Ruadh, that is). He goes on to say "But still we sing and still we make songs for all that). As comments go I found that one pretty damned heartbreaking.

The film about the Stewarts was made by MacColl and Seeger, probably with Donnelan as producer. It too contained a heartbreaking moment, where Sheila is singing Andrew Lammie and the camera homes in on Belle's face.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:38 PM

Such info. might be in the research or programme notes. Does anyone have access to those? Its a miracle enough that the recordings have survived. It may be that Johnny Adams has that info. in the Paul Graney Archive Project at: ( http://www.john-adams.info/ ).

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:44 PM

I meant to add that the lament sung by Flora McNeill was called The Sister's Lament. You can find a different recording of it, plus a prose translation by Calum Johnson on the Tradition LP, Heather and Glen. I remember thinking that Bert's translation, subtitled in the film, was somewhat clunky compared to Johnson's. But there you go.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:46 PM

====

Jim says:

A lot of Philip Donellen's material became part of the Charles Parker archive in Birmingham, - http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/charlesparkerarchive - now (I believe) fully digitised with copies available through the National Sound Archive.

====

However what about the t.v. programmes or films? Actually does the National Sound Archives keep films digitised or otherwise? Or would the BFI have copies? Either way the recordings would be well out of the public domain - where they belong - largely restricted to professional or academic researchers (which is a sore point, me not being one of those).

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 01:52 PM

I'd have thought the most likely source for the Donellan films would be the National Media Museum in Bradford. They have excellent public viewing facilities by the way.

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 03:57 PM

Philip sat on the board of The Charles Parker Archive up to shortly before his death, so I would have thought that was the natural place for them to be housed. He and his wife lived in Passage West in the south of Ireland.
Doc Rowe was a close friend of his and I know he had working knowledge of his films - not so long ago he said he would find out about them for me but he's obviously been too busy - he is now based in York
Another possible place for copies to have been deposited is Ruskin College in Oxford - that's where the MacColl and Seeger archive is housed - both were involved in the making of several of Philip's films.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 07:08 AM

Pardon?

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 09:55 AM

Pardon ? I thought his film was made by John Cohen.

Hoot

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 10:13 AM

"I thought his film was made by John Cohen."
Not one of Cohen's best IMO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 11:41 AM

Jim, this is an occasion when I can agree with you. I seem to remember John did a another on Scottish travelers around the same period which wasn't too exciting either. At least he Got Walter on Film, did anybody else do you know?

Hoot

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Apr 12 - 12:17 PM

"pardon" referred to a bag of utter gobbledegook which someone posted on this thread, and which has now thankfully been removed.

Nothing to do with Walter Pardon.

Cohen did a cracking doumentary on Peruvian musicians many years ago, but I can't remember him doing anything on Scots travellers. Are you perchance thinking of The Summer Walkers, Timothy Neat's film on Gaelic speaking travellers of the Scots highlands?

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 05:54 AM

Not at all Owen I happened to be at the first showing in London when John was there.

Hoot

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 06:37 AM

Hoot, I remember dropping Walter off at BBC studio at White City in West London where he was to be filmed with Karl (or should that be Fred) Dallas and The Albion Band(?)
Walter was somewhat non-committal about it later, but can't remember it being issued.
Wasn't he also included in 'The Other Music'?
Can't understand why John Cohen made such a mess of it - remember the fixation with the milk bottle on Walter's table; and when the camera panned slowly down from "the top of his head right down to the soles of his feet" while he was singing Broomfield Hill - oh dear - not his finest moment!!
John made such good films; I remember two on a South American family - masterpieces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 12 - 06:55 AM

I seem to remember that the concert Walter sang at with The Copper Family at the Shaw Theatre in London was also filmed, but not sure about that.
Sorry Owen - missed your Peruvian family reference - I cross posted maybe!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A.L. Lloyd - 'Songs of the People'
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 07:30 AM

Revised link:

BBC Third Programme - Songs of the People - A.L.Loyds (early 1970s)

1. Children
2. Courting and Love
3. All in a Day's Work
4. Sea and Sailors
5. People on the Move
6. Crime and Criminals
7. Events Great and Small
8. Gone for a Soldier
9. Birds, Beasts and Fishes
10. Myths and Legend
11. Sounds of Revelry
12. The Highway to Heaven
13. The Seasons of the Year

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/gz5hw80fo5oer/Songs_of_the_People_-_A.L.Lloyd