BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun

Subject: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:31 AM

Here we go again...

12 dead and 50 wounded in theater shooting, Aurora, Colorado...

B:~(

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Beer
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:32 AM

It will never end.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM

Now we wait for the NRA to come out with their usual Crap !

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: saulgoldie
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 08:48 AM

And gun sales will skyrocket. And the beat goes on, and on, and on...

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: number 6
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 09:19 AM

Last Saturday here in my town Saint John, in fact just around the corner from where I live a nut wacked biker shot a guy 17 times(count to 17)in broad daylight. The 17th shot was a coup de grace to the head as the victim was lying in the street. Luckily no one else was hit by one of the stray bullets, including some kids playing in a yard across the street. Apparently the biker was pissed off at his victim for some stupid reason. I will also mention saint John has a population of 65K. It's not a metropolis.

Then there was the tragic mass shooting the next day in Toronto.

As I mentioned in another thread violent behaviour is occurring worldwide, even in countries that don't have a NRA and a population who do carry weapons out of paranoia and due to some ancient manifest that allows them to do so. I dunno what the cause is (though I can only speculate).

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:08 AM

My youngest is ok, just talked to her she was at the theater ...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:12 AM

That's GREAT news, Dan.

I'm waiting for the guy to explain himself. And just about exactly one year from the tragedy in Norway!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM

My panic has now turned to rage, good thing the cops got the guy because I can tell you from my heart I would have found him and dealt with him myself and trust me, I could and would ..

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:19 AM

One of your loved ones was endangered. I understand. I understand completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:23 AM

How does somebody with a black costume and three guns, including a shotgun and an assault rifle, just walk into a theater while a movie is on?

Everybody else had to buy a ticket and go through turnstiles.

Didn't the place have any security officers?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:25 AM

I'm waiting for the guy to explain himself.

EXPLAIN HIMSELF? That's a joke, right?? He's a frickin' nut job.

Besides, he was just exercising his second ammendment rights.

Then too, Colorado is a "Stand Your Ground" state - he probably thought all those theater-goers were threatening him & shot in self-defense...

Greg F-
- responsible gun owner & hunter un-brainwashed by NRA lunatic bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM

Pdq,

I read on NPR that he busted in through a side door.

"â€" "According to witnesses, the shooter kicked in the emergency exit door in theater 9, threw some sort of disorienting smoke bombs and started shooting." (KUSA-TV)"

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/07/20/157090121/real-life-horror-many-killed-dozens-wounded-at-colorado-movie-theater

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM

Dan,
I am so sorry she had to experience that. I agree with you. I too could easily kill him if he hurt mine. But for now, watch your granddaughter carefully. She may need help getting past this.
Much love,
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:43 AM

Mary
it was my youngest daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:52 AM

Dan - what a relief it must be for you to know that she's OK. But she may need someone to talk to about it - if not now at some point in the future...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:52 AM

Geeziz Dan......Don't know what to say that would help that you don't already know....We love you.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 10:54 AM

I believe they've cancelled the Paris premier because of this tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:05 AM

She is pretty rattled up, but ok ... had the day off and her company gave her the hard to get tickets to go...
Give me 5 minutes alone with the shooter, just five minutes please

my daughter is a tough as her dad, she will be fine but it will take awhile

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:32 AM

Sick... and gettin sicker it seems.

Dan... that gave me the chills. Re 5 minutes, I assume you'll be a ways back in the lineup.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:39 AM

I have a feeling that this kid will suffer more pain and punishment alive then he would dead...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:46 AM

No doubt we will find that "he had shown no previous signs of being unstable, and had bought guns 'legally'".

Right now there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other "not previously seen to be unstable" guys out there buying guns.... and thinking. Some of them may NOT try a similar thing.

All the sadness and compassion in the world for victims and their families & friends will not prevent the next tragedy.

Those who hold the 2nd amendment as some sort of 'holy writ' need to seriously reconsider........

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:47 AM

Yes, yes, the proliferation of guns is bad, but many of you are missing the point. If these criminals had not had a gun, they would have killed with arson or a bomb or by driving a car into a crowd.

Last week a guy in rural Platte County (near Kansas City) killed two young women by clubbing and then suffocating them. He had been smoking methamphetamine. No guns were involved - just a strong man with a damaged mind. He left so many clues behind, he was apprehended and charged in a couple of days.

As Bobert says "wacked out." I have read that fewer people are using bad drugs, but among those that do, their crimes are getting worse. I believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 11:57 AM

Dan,

I'm totally glad that she is well and can really empathize. Carol and I had our wedding in the DC area around the time of the beltway sniper killings. Three or four shootings took place within a few blocks of my father in law's home. One of Carol's close friends declined to attend out of fear.

But unless you or your loved one is the intended target, there is safety in numbers, your odds of survival are pretty good. There were tens of thousands of other potential victims in Silver Spring, Maryland several million in the DC metro area.

There were probably hundreds of people in that theater, thousands of people in the Denver area watching movies at that time. People are herd animals. There is safety in numbers.

On the other hand, gun laws or not, crazy people will find ways to kill people. Some people go crazy. Taking revenge on a crazy person may be satisfying, but it doesn't make anyone any safer. Legally taking them out of society, permanently, if necessary, makes people safer.

Is anyone else struck by how similar this guy's crime is to that of the villains in the previous two Nolan Batman movies?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:02 PM

" If these criminals had not had a gun...."
\

This guy had over 60 victims.... how many would he have hurt with a knife...or by attempting to strangle them?

It is my strong belief that the very IDEA of being able to 'be all-powerful' with a batch of firearms actually leads many unstable persons to plan attacks that they would not even consider otherwise. Not everyone can build a bomb... but accumulating an arsenal of guns is just a matter of saving some money and not looking TOO weird at the clerks.

(yes...some people occasionally drive a car into a crowd, but compare stastics. And cars do have a few non-lethal uses.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:26 PM

I think the count is now 50 shot, of those 12 died and 38 were injured. He apparently entered through a door down at the front of the theater, usually used only for emergency exits. There was a gas canister of some sort thrown and he had four weapons at the theater and explosives in his vehicle.

He had also booby-trapped his apartment with explosive devices, so while the witnesses from the theater are staged at a nearby high school so the police can take witness statements, the neighborhood around his apartment is cordoned off as they investigate what he left behind there.

CBS News story

The shooter was a 24-year-old man named James Holmes. Another nasty piece of work, and it sounds like the Gabby Giffords shooting but with armor added. He was well-prepared with bullet-proof vest, helmet, etc. I fear/suspect we'll hear that he has followed the Giffords case or was inspired by Columbine, in the same way that McVey in OK City followed Koresh in Waco. It's as if there are little mutual admiration societies among these psychotic men.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:31 PM

Right now there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other "not previously seen to be unstable" guys out there buying guns...

Nope. Its much worse than that.

Thanks to the Marion Hammer, the NRA & ALEC, bunches of states, in addition to "Stand Your Ground" laws, have passed "shall issue" laws that permit convicted felons, domestic abusers, the documented mentally ill and all manner of other folks who shouldn't be allowed within 50 miles of a firearm, never mind a pistol, to to legally purchase & carry concealed weapons.

Florida is the most egregious case, but Colorado has a "Stand Your Ground" law on the books & may very well also be a "shall issue" state.

If ya ain't outraged, ya ain't paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:37 PM

If these criminals had not had a gun, they would have killed with arson or a bomb...

Oh, please, not that old sophomoric nonsense again !! Thank you Wayne LaPierre & Charleton Heston.

Yeah, right...and if he didn't have a bomb or a match & gasoline, he'd have used a tennis racket or a golf club or a hammer, and if he didn't have a tennis racket or a golf club or a hammer, he'd have used a phillips screwdriver or a rock or strangled 'em with a dog leash, and if he didn't have a phillips screwdriver or a rock or a dog leash, he'd have stabbed 'em with a hatpin or a nail file & on & on ad absurdum.

Gimmie a frickin break, will ya?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:40 PM

If Thomas Jefferson & Co. had known about AK-47s they would have labored longer on the language of the 2nd amendment... This is an insane weapon for ordinary people having a right to possess.. BTW, wonder what militia this kid is a member of???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:26 PM

Which is why I'm waiting for more information: WHO is he, and I don't mean his name.

And since this will degenerate in a shouting match over gun control, I'm outa here.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:43 PM

THIS CARTOON was written just after the Gabbie Giffords shjooting and still says it about right.............Why are we even talking anymore. It is and will be what it is....................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:49 PM

Dan, I forgot you had family over there. I am so grateful you have heard from her and she is, relatively speaking, okay.

I hate this. The Colorado I grew up in most families had rifles and maybe a pistol, but if you didn't hunt (we didn't) you just used them for target practice. I know, as pointed out above, this kind of thing is all too common throughout the world, but it's still a lot scarier when it hits so close to home.

May the light shine and sustain all those involved and may there be peace among us all,

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:06 PM

Ah, Spaw, you just gotta love Tom Tommorow, dontcha.

Look up the one on "The Rise And Fall of (Relative) Stupidity in America" from 2008. That's the other side of the same coin.

Be well-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:06 PM

"James Eagan Holmes, 24, is the suspect apprehended in connection with the Colorado mass shooting at the Batman movie. His is a white American previously from San Diego who lived in a apartment building near the movie theater where the mass shooting occurred. He is a former Ph.D. student at the University of Colorado.

Holmes was captured by police in the movie theater parking lot while still wearing a bullet-proof vest, riot helmet and gas mask, authorities said."

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:10 PM

Dan, I'm so glad to hear that your daughter is OK, and so sorry for those whose children are not.

One person who was there said she initially thought it was a publicity stunt for the film. What he was wearing would have suggested that. he would have been much more conspicuous in some other sorts of showings.

I'm wondering if this has anything to do with Limbaugh's rantings about Bane?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Elmore
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:11 PM

Tragic. A problem Which many Americans, and, in particular, the NRA will not allow us to solve.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:11 PM

Good stuff, Spaw. (We coss-posted, so I didn't see it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:15 PM

Is no one else stunned that no one in the theater pulled a gun and shot this maniac in his tracks?
Guess there aren't nearly as many guns carried in Colorado as NYC.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

"violent behaviour is occurring worldwide, even in countries that don't have a NRA"

It occurs everywhere OK, and always has - but as has been pointed out in another thread, the figures for all types of murder of all sorts in the UK are lower than they have been for 30 years.

Gun killings are particularly likely to happen in certain societies, with certain social patterns and cultures, and the USA is very much to the fore among socially comparative countries when it comes to gun killings.
...............................

Here is a link to a page giving a rundown of the gun regulations in Colorado. You can't really call them "gun controls", since they contain such brilliant provisions as these:

"Local governments are prohibited from maintaining a list or other record or database of persons who purchase or exchange firearm or leave them for repair or sale on consignment, and persons who transfer firearms unless they are federally licensed firearms dealers, or of the descriptions, including serial numbers, of such firearms.

"Local governments may not enact any ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law."

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

I said "over 60 victims.." the police chief just said 71....including 'several' in critical condition.

..."degenerate in a shouting match over gun control.."

degenerate? The cartoon spaw posted has that degeneration outflanked.

Everyday in this country...EVERY DAY... there are deaths by firearms way out of proportion to other countries! I do NOT see how an examination of what to DO about the use & control of deadly weapons is "degeneration". It is obvious that something needs to be addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:28 PM

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State, the Second Amendment reads:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I do not believe that James Holmes, the Colorado shooter, constitutes, or is a member of, "a well regulated militia."

Back in Thomas Jefferson's day, there were single-shot pistols and muskets. You fired one shot, then you had to duck behind a tree and reload. It would take a fairly fast reloader about a full minute to ram the powder, ball, and wadding into the barrel and recharge the pan before he could fire again. Either that, or he could shove the hilt of a bayonet into the muzzle and use it for a spear.

These days, you can get a 30-round drum magazine for a Glock handgun, and empty the magazine with one pull of the trigger. The shooter in Aurora, Colorado had a shotgun, a rifle, and two .40 cal. Glocks.

I don't think the possibility of something like this even occurred to the Founding Fathers.

The NRA has one helluva lot to answer for!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:34 PM

I have posted essentially what Don Firth said perhaps 8-10 times in the last few years. The NRA treats the 2nd amendment, as I say, like an infallible 'holy writ' instead of a human attempt to deal with a security problem at one specific time in history.

Do I think we have a snowball's chance in hell of amending the 2nd amendment? HA!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:34 PM

I am for gun control, for limiting certain types of weapons and the capacity of gun magazines. I am also for the regulation of other personal weapons and explosives. The coverage I saw said that he had a rifle, a shotgun and two handguns. We can't really ever ban shotguns or rifles in a place with as much wilderness and ranch land as Colorado. So how would gun regulation have helped here? He three smoke canisters and shot people in the confusion. If he had thrown smoke then gasoline in burning bottles he might still have killed and injured as many.

In a free society it is almost impossible to stop a crazy person who is willing to sacrifice himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM

"Do I think we have a snowball's chance in hell of amending the 2nd amendment? HA! "

If we re-elect President Obama, there is a very good chance we will get a Supreme court that will enforce it as written.

"Well regulated militia." Certainly allows for regulation and restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bettynh
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:43 PM

I think about Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner whenever one of these events happens. His argument was that crowding would lead to this sort of thing (it was written in 1968) as happens with crowded rats . The name of the president of the USA in his novel was Zadkiel Obomi. He called the episodes "berserkers" and I think of them as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:44 PM

"...enforce it as written....

But even scholars disagree on exactly what 'what was written' actually means! It should mean that people can 'bear arms' when acting AS a "regulated" militia". The very concept of a 'militia' for state & federal purposes has changed in 250+ years!....almost as much as firearms have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:50 PM

"The AR-15 was first built by ArmaLite as a selective fire assault rifle for the United States armed forces. Because of financial problems, ArmaLite sold the AR-15 design to Colt. The select-fire AR-15 entered the US military system as the M16 rifle. Colt then marketed the Colt AR-15 as a semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle for civilian sales in 1963. The name "AR-15" is a Colt registered trademark, which refers only to the semi-automatic rifle."

Look folks, the problem is defective people, not guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot jack shocked
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM

Is no one else stunned that no one in the theater pulled a gun and shot this maniac in his tracks?

Who says the Americans don't do irony?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: saulgoldie
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:19 PM

Dan, so sorry to hear that. I hope you treat her gently and she does not carry the grief of the event.


Now, if there is no gun present, then no one will get hurt from a gun. That is not arguable. It is a tautology: true by definition. No one can hurt someone else with a gun if they do not have a gun.

Second, I cannot find the reference, so flame away if you must. But I distinctly remember a carefully done study some years back that put the subjects in roll-playing hostile situations with a defined conflict. One group sat at a table. Another group sat at a table with a knife on it. The third group sat at a table with a pistol on it.

In the first group, the hostility did not escalate. In the second, it did escalate, but not that much. In the third, it escalated a LOT, and one of the participants reached for the gun.

This study was done in strict accordance with scientific principles and integrity. It was not pre-loaded with a conclusion which the conductors of the study then cherry-picked data to "prove" their point.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:32 PM

Meanwhile in Scotland:

homicide stats 2010-11

Homicides: 95. Homicides using guns: 2.

Scotland has a slightly larger population than Colorado. I can't find a comparably clear document giving the figures, but it seems Colorado has a homicide rate about 50% higher than Scotland, and 75% of the killings are by gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:55 PM

...crowding would lead to this sort of thing...

That may well be a factor in some cases. But Colorado is not exactly overcrowded. About 50 people per square mile, 39th least population density in the USA. And the USA itself ranks behind 178 other countries out of 241 when it comes to population density, with 82 people per square mile.

That's not perhaps the best direction to look to explain this.