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BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Penny S. Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:37 AM It occurs to me that the credit/debit card companies could be helpful in these cases, by flagging up large purchases of suspicious items to the security services. As could the suppliers of arms and ammo, if legit and wanting to stay legit. There must be a threshold that even NRA members would recognise between normal supplies for normal purposes and stocking up a small army quantities. At the very least, a sudden rush of purchases should surely alert the normal programs which spot if a card has been used to purchase, for example, £2000 worth of French wine. (That's what my stolen details were used for.) Not just armoury stuff, either. Fuel oil, fertiliser, hydrogen peroxide and so on, as well. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM The mean number of times an American police officer feels compelled to fire his gun at a suspect during his police career: Never. Movies and TV say different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 26 Jul 12 - 12:22 PM Probably time to get to the real problem here, which is not that a lot of people have guns, but that a lot of people think it is ok to shoot them at other people when they feel threatened or angry(or stab them, or blow them up). This is only part of a larger problem that includes cutting people off in traffic when they do something you don't like (there are estimates that road rage figures in 60-70% of traffic accidents), and calling someone who disagrees with you on an internet forum childish names. A lot of people in our country (you know which country I am talking about) feel entitled to aggressively confront anyone who does something they don't like. Though we recoil at the extreme examples, we tolerate it and even applaud it in everyday situations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jul 12 - 01:27 PM Gun fights and killing in the 'old West' of the 1880s are mostly the product of movies and popular fiction. Many guns were carried, but seldom used. One great exception is the Lincoln County War in New Mexico, started when a small group of merchants headed by Murphy and Dolan and their supporters in law enforcement acted to take over the properties of an English rancher. William Bonney was a young cowboy working for Alexander McSween and Tunstall, the former burned out and murdered and the latter killed, by Sheriff Brady and the gang working for the Murphy-Dolan group, in what is called the Battle of Lincoln. Billy killed very few, and never wantonly, but he did kill Brady, who was instrumental in the killing of McSween, his loved boss and mentor. Billy failed to get a pardon for his part in the fracas from Gov. Lew Wallace, the only one of the Regulators who did not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jul 12 - 03:17 PM Gun fights and killing in the 'old West' of the 1880s are mostly the product of movies and popular fiction. Many guns were carried, but seldom used. Source? References? Substantiation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 03:42 PM You might start with my post of 9:20 a.m. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:11 PM LIghter, 9:20 am on26 July. References pointing to low incidence of violence in the old west: Roger McGrath, 1984, " Gunfighters, Highwaymen, and Vigilantes: Violence on the Frontier," Univ. California Press "The frontier-was-violent authors are not, for the most part, attempting to prove that the frontier was violent. Rather, they assume that it was violent and then proffer explanations for that alleged violence" (p. 270). Eugene Hollon writes that the western frontier "was a far more civilized, more peaceful and safer place than American Society today." W. Eugene Hollon, 1974, "Frontier Violence: Another Look." Oxford University Press. Terry Anderson and P. J. Hill affirm that although "the West.... is perceived as a place of great chaos, with little respect for property or life," their research "indicates that this was not the case; property rights were protected and civil order prevailed. Private agencies provided the necessary basis for an orderly society in which property was protected and conflicts were resolved." Anderson, Terry, and P. J. Hill, 1979, An American Experiment in Anarcho-capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West. Jour. Libertarian Studies 3:9-29. Wagon trains established a constitution or ground rules before setting out. Ostracism and banishment threats were sufficient to correct behavior. Miners in California formed associations and contracts with each other. References from a brief article in http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=803. A book often cited for violence proves the opposite if read; "The Vigilantes of Montana," Prof. Theodore J. Dimsdale, 1866. Businessmen and ranchers in Montana organized and hung, jailed, and rooted out thieves, rustlers, and killers in the state, insuring safety for its citizens. This book has been reprinted many times, it is an interesting and very readable history of bringing peace to an area without government law. The full title: "The Vigilantes of Montana, or popular justice in the Rocky Mountains, being a correct and impartial narrqative of the chase, trial, capture and execution of Henry Plummer's road agent band, together with accounts of the lives and crimes of many of the robbers and desperadoes." Printed on Virginia City, Montana. In the book, the vigilantes are not named, and the identity of some is still uncertain, others identified themselves at later dates, some were prominent owners of ranches and businesses, others entered politics. They made Montana safe for those who came to make a home in that region. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jul 12 - 06:03 PM I guess you could claim it was anecdotal, but my dad, who grew up with a granddad who'd been a deputy US Marshall in the Cherokee strip and a dad who was equally comfortable with guns as a necessary tool on a ranch, knew of only two times in their lives in which they "took up arms." Both times in self-defence. In only one of those were shots fired resulting in my greatgranddad killing a neighbour who was shooting at him with some accuracy. He turned himself into the sheriff and was jailed for his own safety until an inquest found it was self-defence. But, even with am amazing number of saloons in the small town near where they settled, shoot-outs were mostly non-existent and leaders of the community took responsibility for keeping that so. Unfortunately, the myths of shoot-outs are perpetuated through such events as are listed on THIS PAGE, though I am sure some of those are based on some historical facts. Apologies if this has already been cited: The Culture of Violence in the American West: Myth vs Reality |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:00 PM Stimz has a point here... Yes, people are a lot more emboldened and brazen with their aggressive behaviors... Two things: 1. We need to get back to "win-win-we" thinkin' and quit with the "win-lose-me" thinkin... We need a major "reconciliation" effort... But... 2. With more people armed people are empowered to act aggressively because it won't come down to what I grew up with, i.e. a fist fight... It'll just come down to the mere pulling of a trigger... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 26 Jul 12 - 07:06 PM See, with a fist fight you can't wipe the other guy off the face of the earth. Which is what more and more folks clearly want to do. Because they're mad as hell and aren't going to take it anymore. That goes equally for criminals and (temporary) non-criminals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:58 PM katlaughing, thanks for another good reference on the violence myth of the old West. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:06 PM No. lighter... The fist fight stripes away the weapons... The fist fight might just be the solution... Worked in the 50s and 60s... People didn't shoot people because it wasn't an.... ...option... It wasn't... People got in a lot of fist fights... Big deal... Everyone was alive afterwards... Bring back the fist fights... That is a start... Get the guns outta the equation... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM See, with a fist fight you can't wipe the other guy off the face of the earth. I guess not. But you can certainly kill of be killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:58 PM Thanks for noticing, Q. I just skimmed the surface, but it looked fairly accurate and interesting. By the way, one of the headlines of the news accounts about my ggranddad was "Got a Gun and Shot Him |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 27 Jul 12 - 07:07 AM ""See, with a fist fight you can't wipe the other guy off the face of the earth. I guess not. But you can certainly kill of be killed."" Give us your best guess JtS, 100 people hit with fists! How many die?......1?.....2?.....5? 100 people hit with bullets! How many die?......30?.....40? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Stu Date: 27 Jul 12 - 07:23 AM "If you never owned a weapon, know nothing about weapons then you do not know what your are saying." I don't think you can rule everyone else out the debate because they have never owned a gun. We're all part of society and therefore all have an equal or valid voice, a fact which gun owners don't seem to like for some reason. Dismissing opinions on this basis is plain wrong; we all know what guns do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:49 AM How do you tell from this thread who doesn't own a gun? Not all gun owners think one way. Worth remembering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jul 12 - 10:07 AM BTW, I not only own guns but have going back to when I was about 9 years old and, along with my mom, was in an NRA sponsored shoot club... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: olddude Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM ABCNEWS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM That's nice.... while that guy was disarming the knife wielder, 14 people were being shot across the country. And if that guy was determined to hurt someone and had a gun instead of a knife? "All Indians walk in single file... at least the Indian *I* saw once was walking single file." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 27 Jul 12 - 03:03 PM 273 Americans will be shot today... More guns ain't going to change that number downward but upward... Sure, there are occasions where it works out for the better but seriously offset by the other 272 occasions where things don't work out well... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 27 Jul 12 - 03:42 PM The 22 others are being shot by drug deals ... not the guy carrying the weapon that stopped the stabbing. One size fits all I guess right. Wrong ... I once heard on guy getting rabies from a dog. So lets tell everyone that dogs should no longer be allowed as pets. Or should it be dogs can be pets with legit owners who give them shots and licenses. Now with 200,000 firearms how do you propose your ban. Me I say if you are well trained, pass the background checks do it right. Do it all right, then it is your responsibility to protect others as the police are not everywhere at all times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 27 Jul 12 - 03:59 PM I have a hard time understanding the thinking. I respect differences in opinion but if my house is on fire, I ain't gonna wait for the fireman to come and get my family out .. because, well its their job .. I will do it myself. Now you never go looking for trouble, but if it finds you .. then you need to understand there are many good people who have very good backgrounds that carry firearms ... you hear of the neighborhood watch guy that went looking for trouble. Licensed people don't want any part of that, but I will compare that isolated case with the high number of drug shoots and other criminal acts .. and it ain't the licensed carrier doing it. Grandpa here did everything wrong .. but he did stop it grandpa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 06:43 AM He sure as hell did do everything wrong. However, shooting the guy with the pistol was done right even if it was done wrong. If you need an explanation of my statements... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Jeri Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:18 AM I don't believe he actually shot anybody, not even any other patrons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:32 AM Jeri... You may be right. I watched it again. He didn't hit the guy with the pistol. So, maybe he did do that right. The others are out of camera. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:55 AM He made a bunch of tactical errors but he did stop it, and I don't believe he hit anyone, just scared the crap out of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:59 AM Once again, Ol'ster... You are speaking from your perspective and training... You say you train cops... So, if that is the case then you have a "law enforcement" persoective and mentality... That's fine... I want you in the McD's when the wacko comes in with a Glock and a head full of rage... What I don't want. however, is for everyone else in McD's to be packing heat... Actually, I don't even want one other guy packing heat unless he has also been highly trained... Like I said, 273 (two hundred seventy three) Americans were shot yesterday and another 273 will be shot today, and tomorrow and, and, and... Yes, the murder rate has somewhat stabilized over the years but alot of that has to do with better and faster medical treatments... Doesn't change the fact that we are shooting 273 Americans every day... And the argument that folks deserve to be shot because they are bad people and getting shot by other bad people is in-humane and un-caring... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:20 AM On some topics I find Bobert's arguments unpersuasive. But not on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:33 AM your point is well taken bobster, I do look at it from a trained cops perspective and thus bias in my argument .. good point well made |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM Was another tragedy prevented here? --------------------------------------------------------------- "A week after the Colorado movie theater massacre, a Maryland man was taken into custody when police said he made a "joker" reference and threatened to shoot up a business he was being fired from. Neil E. Prescott, 28, had an arsenal of guns, though it wasn't clear how serious he was about threats he made to his boss over the telephone, authorities said. When police questioned Prescott at his apartment, authorities said he was wearing a T-shirt that said "Guns don't kill people. I do." Prescott told a supervisor at software and mailroom supplier Pitney Bowes that he wanted to see his boss'"brain splatter all over the sidewalk," according to police and an application for a search warrant. "I'm a joker and I'm gonna load my guns and blow everybody up," Prescott said, according to the document. ______________________________________________________ He sure had way more guns than anyone 'needs', and seems to have had strange ways of expressing himself.... and he was being fired from his job. I guess we'll never know "what if" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 12 - 05:29 PM "I watched it again. He didn't hit the guy with the pistol." 'Scuse me for being a nit-picker, but--where did the bullet he fired go? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:49 PM Past the guy with the pistol would be my guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:14 PM its a .380 he was using ... pretty low powered, the bullet is in the wall. that would not go through. It is quite possible he did hit the first guy, but if not a head shot you tend just to just piss em off |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:39 PM Well, .380 is not what I would call "low powered." It's not up there with the .45 ACP or 9 millimeter (which has a lot of penetration, but not a whole lot of "stopping power"). The .32 was a standard police caliber in a number of European countries, but the Italian police felt it was too puny, and adopted the .380, which they dubbed the "9 millimeter corto" (short). Then other European police forces began adopting it. Fairly similar to the .38 Special, which is a standard American police cartridge. .380 will usually do the job in most cases. And it can be fired from a somewhat smaller pistol, such as a Beretta 84FS Cheetah or a Walther PPK. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: gnu Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:32 PM Made this point many times before but not yet on this thread... there are good gun laws and there are bad gun laws. A bad gun law not only allows the following but encourages it and this type of crime has happened with alarming and increasing frequency since our new "gun laws" were introduced. From my local newspaper today... Man shot during home invasion Police seek suspects in Homestead Road home invasion BY BRENT MAZEROLLE TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF The District 11 RCMP is asking for the public's assistance in locating suspects in a violent home invasion in Berry Mills early yesterday. Three armed males broke into a home on the Homestead Road in Berry Mills just before 5 a.m. At some point during the incident, the 75-year-old homeowner, well known area auto enthusiast Bud Blacklock, was shot in the leg. His wife Louise was not injured. It's believed the suspects fled in a vehicle. The couple were both transported to hospital. The man's injuries are not believed to be life-threatening. The RCMP Forensic Identification Section and Police Dog Service are assisting in the investigation. It is unknown at this time whether anything was stolen from the home. The suspects are described as three males of slim build who were of short to medium height. Two of the suspects were wearing ball caps and all three had their faces partially covered. They spoke English and were dressed in dark-coloured clothing. Police remained at the home throughout the day yesterday. A neighbour of the couple, Jeff White, who lives about 200 metres away, said he heard nothing from his home until he woke up about 7 a.m. and saw police already at the scene. After that startling discovery, he watched police scour the grounds of the property, search ditches and even bring in the RCMP helicopter. It landed and the crew talked to the police on the ground briefly before going aloft again. 'The helo did three or four passes in increasingly larger circles,' White said, suggesting the air crew was looking for any evidence that may have been left behind in the vicinity. A number of friends of the Blacklocks, some of whom were nervous to be identified by name because of fear of similar crimes, expressed shock that someone would harm the well-liked couple, a man with pre-existing health problems and a woman who is legally blind. At the nearby Country View Restaurant, there was at least relief that the injury was not more serious. The significant police response had some area residents fearing the worst. Paul Forgrave, a long time friend of the Blacklocks through car club circles, said yesterday afternoon, 'I didn't know what had happened. I had just heard there had been a robbery.' Forgrave and others suggested it would be very unlikely the couple had any enemies. However, it seems possible a small home-based business Bud Blacklock runs might have been a motive for a robbery. 'He sells used cars and you don't always know who you're dealing with,' Forgrave said. Besides involvement with antique cars, Bud Blacklock has also long been involved in the community with the Luxor Temple Shriners, part of their miniature car brigade that entertains youngsters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:13 AM On the subject of Grandpa, linked to above--old dude didn't spell it out, but "Grandpa" actually is the one who is on a shooting spree-he was the only one who fired shots, both of the people he shot were running away from him, it looks like he shot at people other than the robbers, and one of the people he shot seems to be unarmed and trying to crawl away while "Grandpa" is emptying his revolver. I'm not feeling any safer because guys like him are out there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM Yeah, whether it Grandpa has Alzheimers or not, Grandpa doesn't need a gun... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:19 AM Last night ....Mass. dad shoots 2 kids, 1 fatally, kills self He had a gun licence that expired in 1999....but I guess that no one checks and removes the gun when the licence expires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:53 AM A .380 will do the job, but it ain't a .40 cal. It is a backup weapon by police. Anything will do the job with the right shot placement but if hit in the torso with a .380 a bad guy will fire back. Now hit with a .357, .40 or .45 no they stay down. Grandpa kept the gunmen at bay, yes he made tactical errors, but they did not kill a bunch of people either. They made a mad dash for the door didn't they. They no longer wished to play. Good job grandpa, but get some more training and shooting practice. He was just going out to the internet cafe, he wasn't the one confronted . Me arm the good guys then the bad guy can take a second look. By the way, in New York state, you lose your handgun license or you passed away, the sheriff comes in and takes your handguns because they are notified and handguns are registered in this state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:02 AM knowing the ballistics of the 380 in mine I carry +p ammo with full jacked hollow points (my gun can handle the hot load). If I have to use it God forbid I am not going to piss him off but take him out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Megan L Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM "Oh wad some power the giftie gie us Tae see oorselves as itheres see us It wad frae mony a blunder free us And foolish notion." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:11 AM last comment so you understand. NO police officer is ever trained to wound someone. If deadly force is needed they are trained to kill. That is the long and short of it. Their weapons are hollow points, their backup is hollow point with +p hotloads. They are NOT trained to injure. The gun is pulled only when deadly force is needed with the full intent to kill not injure. If the situation is so bad that a weapon needs to be drawn, it is not to scare or to injure but to stop |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:33 AM for a bad guy, a police officer off duty is far more dangerous then on duty. A uniformed officer would take a torso shot first since his weapon is high powered. Off duty he is most likely carrying a small back up weapon and his shot placement would be double tap to head first |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 12:05 PM guys like myself, Kendall and many others here took an oath to protect, serve and defend. Just because we no longer wear the uniform doesn't mean that oath no longer applies. Not every citizen is a gun crazed maniac you see. now I am off to the range with my kids later |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Don Firth Date: 29 Jul 12 - 03:49 PM Not to put too fine a point on it, olddude, but people have been killed--on the spot--with a .22. Also a .25. Granted, if one expects to get into a gun battle, you want to have some substantial firepower. But if one carries a concealed weapon as a general rule, like a credit card just in case you might need it, something in the way of a "back-up gun" such as a Walther PPK .380 doesn't put a suspicious bulge under your coat. And in most cases, a .380 jacketed hollow-point will do the trick. Have you ever seen what a .380 jacketed hollow-point will do to a canteloupe? Don Firth P. S. Hell, man, if I knew I was going to get into a gun battle, I'd carry a bazooka! P. S. My former friend who damned near killed a mutual friend and got himself arrested for drawing his .45 automatic in a situation that did not warrent deadly force, used to laugh at my Walther PPK. Called it a "cap gun." Until he saw what it did to the canteloupe. An explosion of orange haze and a few shards of rind. Even he had to agree that would do the job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:08 PM That's just fine, Don - assuming you're attacked by a deranged canteloupe on PCP. Olddude knows of what he speaks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,olddude Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:26 PM If you use a .380 which is really a 9mm browning court or 9mm short as it is called in Europe use Hornady 90-gr. HP/XTP It has the best stopping power and is not a +p ... your gun has to be able to handle +P or you will blow it up or jam it up. Mine can't many .380's cannot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: GUEST,Stim Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:33 PM If you,Old Dude, as an officer, had stepped into the internet cafe when Grandpa was firing his weapon, how would you have assessed the situation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun.... From: Bobert Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:34 PM Exactly, Don... Back in Virginia the P-Vine would occasionally see a deer in one of her gardens and I killed them with a .022... Caliber ain't entire story... B~ |
