BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

You have had reports from Reuters, from Amnesty International, From Jews for Justice, From Rabbis For Justice, from Journals and newspapers all over the world, from the UN and from accredited surveys set up by the UN and Amnesty.
You have had scientific evidence of the nature and dangers of this site and other sites occupied by Bedouins.
You have had evidence arising from surveys carried out on the "Apartheid" nature of Israeli society, both from inside and outside Israel.
You have totally ignored every point of evidence of toxicity on this site.
You have deliberately refused to provivide any evidence whatever to back up your invented claims and you obviously intend continue to do so.
Just as the Israelis continue to carry out an ethnic cleansing policy in order to expand their state, you continue to lie and distort in order to support human rights abuses, mass murder and other war crimes
I would say by your openly racist behaviour and totally transparent dishonesty you have managed to shit all over your own arguments.
Checkmate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 05:54 AM

Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza.

The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them.

The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad.

To demonize Israel you have to rake up an event from over thirty years ago that was committed by Lebanese Arabs on Palestinian Arabs, and falsely claim the Bedouin in Israel are persecuted.

Israel seeks to move Bedouin away from illegal settlements near a toxic dump.
Ordinary dumps are harmless when properly run, as Israel's are.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 06:58 AM

"to rake up an event from over thirty years ago"
Thank you once again for bringing to our attention a massacre of 3,000 unarmed and unresisting refugees, facilitated and participated in by the Israeli regime and supported by you.
You have yet to explain why the fact that it happened thirty years ago is relevant – if nothing else, it serves as a reminder (if a reminder were needed) that the slaughter and persecution of civilians is not a new phenomenon, but has been going on for decades, and continues.
"Egypt acted against the tunnels because the attack came from Gaza."
The Egyptian regime, described by you as an oppressive human rights abuser, appears to have got its act together and at last claimed that the closure of the tunnels was a defensive move; others, more democratic and more representative of the Egyptian people, have claimed otherwise – you've had the statement.
The "obscure journal" you refer to is in fact is claimed to be "a publication demanding democratic change in Egypt and the Middle East and The English Language sister paper to Egypt's leading Independent daily newspaper opposing the present regime" – in fact, trying to put right everything you have described Egypt and the Arab nations of being guily of. On this occasion you will support the version of events that suits your particular line – as I said, "strange bedfellows".
"The Israeli airstrike was justified and no significant nation or UN has "condemned" them."
As you said, the UN said that if they are guilty of what they have been accused of, they should be condemned.
"The weapons were destined for Hezbollah who are now murdering Syrian people for Assad."
Nobody has provided proof on this, but you aren't big on proof, having none of your own.
"falsely claim"
You have had your proof, have been given ample opportunity to contradict it and have have refused –game, set and match.
"Israel seeks to move Bedouin away from illegal settlements near a toxic dump.
Ordinary dumps are harmless when properly run, as Israel's are."
You have also have been given ample opportunity to prove this and have again refused.
Toxic dumps have been a reality of Bedouin life for over a decade and no attempts have been made to change that.
'Warm words' don't count.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM

I cited the Egyptian government.
They should know why they closed the tunnels.

I provided a Haaretz piece about Israel's well run refuse dumps.

Your own link was about Israel wanting to move Bedouin AWAY from toxic sites.

The weapons were for Hezbollah.
There is just no-one in the world denying it except you and Don.
It is an accepted fact.
THAT IS WHY UN HAS NOT CONDEMNED.

You have been wrong about everything Jim, because of your prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:38 AM

""He rose to high rank in the army and became a diplomat.""

As I said, living better than any of the Negev Bedouins. What would he know, or care, about their day to day existence?

""Large numbers of Bedouin join the army, swearing their oath of allegiance to Israel on the Koran.""

And many deprived people in other countries join the armies of those countries.

It's one way of getting three square meals a day, but it doesn't mean that all their brethren are treated well. Rather the reverse, in fact!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:55 AM

""No lies from me Don, and no bigotry.
Your prejudice prevents you from accepting obvious truths.
The attackers used the tunnels.
The convoy was carrying weapons to Hezbollah.
You are indeed a deeply prejudiced bigot.""

When did you last hear a bigot say: ""Or maybe the Bedouins were entirely responsible. That's the whole point Keith. There are several possibilities, and I don't pretend to know who actually did the deed and you certainly cannot claim to know either.

You, however, not knowing are bound and determined to exclude Israel alone from any involvement.

You have ignored my entirely credible analysis of the situation with respect to WHO has most to gain, because responding would mean that you would have to refute it logically, which you cannot do.""

So I'm supposed to be a bigot because I point out that there are several possibilities, and refuse to take a doctrinaire position in support of the one you insist upon?

So, here's a challenge for you.

Tell me who you believe has most to gain from the border closure and the complete subjugation of Gaza to the tender mercies of the IDF?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:06 AM

""Jim, whatever your obscure Egyptian magazine says, the Egyptian government and security forces state that the attackers used the tunnels and state that as the reason for the closure and flooding.""

Another of your feeble sidesteps Keith.

By whose standards is the Egyptian Independent an ""obscure Egyptian magazine""? It's a classic false argument to attempt to lower the credibility of a source with which you disagree, and fundamentally dishonest.

Entirely worthy of you!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

""If you wish to continue in your claims of "Not everybody there was Hamas because they could not have gotten over the border" YOU need to show when it was re-closed and why.""

OK I'll trade you question for question BB.

If, as you claim, the border was open and free to cross, why were there any tunnels in use?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM

""Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve.""

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?

Or is it much more likely that they have not been particularly bothered?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:27 AM

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
""Israel refutes this"".

And Keith A. of Hertford thinks that this constitutes evidence.

Not only blinkered, biased and bigotted, but terminally dumb!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:12 AM

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?
It was last May Don.

By whose standards is the Egyptian Independent an ""obscure Egyptian magazine""?
I cited the Egyptian government.
They should know why they closed the tunnels.

Ismail Khaldi was born in Khawaled, a village near Haifa.[3] He is the third of eleven children.[1] He lived in a Bedouin tent until the age of eight. He walked four miles round trip to attend school[2] and tended flocks of sheep. He said his family's ties with its Jewish neighbors go back to the days of the early Zionist pioneers from Eastern Europe who settled in the Galilee region in the 1920s.

And many deprived people in other countries join the armies of those countries.
Why don't Palestinian Israelis join then?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:16 AM

Some people accuse Israel of "war crimes and atrocities."
""Israel refutes this"".

And Keith A. of Hertford thinks that this constitutes evidence.

No he does not.
Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.

The evidence to convict is just not there in any of the cases you have raised.
Find an unequivocal crime and put it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:42 AM

Don,

OK- waiting on YOUR answer...



"OK I'll trade you question for question BB.

If, as you claim, the border was open and free to cross, why were there any tunnels in use?"


The tunnels are in use BECAUSE the Gazans are bringing in material ( that you seem to approve of) that is being used to attack both Israel AND Egypt. PROHIBITED weapons, and materials to produce them, are stopped BY THE EGYPTIANS as well as the Israelis.- Something about a UN declaration that Gaza is supposed to be civilian, if it wants to NOT be destroyed by the ONGOING ( i.e., since 1948, and NEVER stopped) war the Arabs have been pursuing against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM

Also,
" Hamas taxes everything that comes through them, shutting down operators who don't pay up. Tunnel revenue is estimated to provide Hamas with as much as $750 million a year. Hamas has also smuggled in cash from exiled leaders and patrons in Syria, Iran, and Qatar that helps keep it afloat.

Samir told me that Hamas leaders and local officials are in business with tunnel operators, protecting them from prosecution when workers like his brother die needlessly. He's convinced that corruption and bribery are rampant. His friends agreed. "Damn the municipality!" Suhail blurted out as Samir spoke.
National Geographic

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

"They should know why they closed the tunnels."
They are a military regime at war with their own people - though, as I pointed out, they are saying what you need them to say so that's the line you took - gland you put this up though, another hole in your already tattered credibility.
"I provided a Haaretz piece about Israel's well run refuse dumps."
And I provided the definition of "toxic" to give you an opportunity to prove the proposed site is not poisonous - you didn't, which proved fairly conclusively that it is - still open for contradiction though
"Which they haven't done in over a dozen years, and have no plans to do so in the foreseeably future - how long does it take to prevent people, from respiratory failure, cancer.... brought about by the conditions they are forced to exist in?
"The weapons were for Hezbollah."
No evidence of that, but there you go, you aren't big on evidence, are you?
"denying it except you and Don."
Don't suppose you'd care to point out where I said I deny it - won't hold my breath though.
"because of your prejudice."
Wasn't it you who said the only argument against Israeli atrocities, was that provided by the Israelis themselves, yet still you support their carrying out mass murder by denying it, based only on their evidence - dig it out if you want
Thanks for the opportunity again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:12 PM

They are a military regime at war with their own people
I thought the Muslim Brotherhood were elected.
Anyway, whatever you think of them, they should know why they closed the tunnels.

And I provided the definition of "toxic"
Yes you did even though we all already knew.
Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic, so what is your point?

"The weapons were for Hezbollah."
No evidence of that, but there you go, you aren't big on evidence, are you?
OK, but that is the only explanation that makes sense.
The only people in the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria.
Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.

you support their carrying out mass murder by denying it,
Not true Jim.
I just related Israel's version and pointed out the lack of evidence to refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:20 AM

""It was last May Don.""

Was it Keith! I could have sworn the article showed the findings of the Ministry of Health epidemiological study were published in June 2004.

Now, let's see,......does that sound like last May? NO! Not even to a child in primary school.

Maybe last May was when they finally decided the Bedouins were weakened enough to be more easily shifted, after eight years of inaction?

The relevant article is posted again since you seem to have skipped past it. What else is new?

""A bit more
Jim Carroll
"POWERLESS" BEDOUIN VILLAGE STILL SEEKING HEALTH CARE
BY AM JOHAL
"Israel's Negev desert is facing a public health crisis. After much public pressure, in June
2004, the Ministry of Health revealed the findings of its epidemiological study - there are
65% higher rates of cancer and mortality for those living within a 20km radius of the
Ramat Hovav Industrial Zone. Some 350,000 people live within this danger zone,
including the residents of Beer Sheva. The Bedouin village of Wadi el Na'am is located
500m from Ramat Hovav - which encompasses 19 hazardous agro and petro-chemical
factories, and a toxic waste incinerator. The site has ironically won state awards for
environmental stewardship for four years in a row. In all the paradoxes of Israel, this one
defies expectations. A few years ago, even the IDF vacated the Manos military camp, 2
km to the north of the factories after soldiers became ill, and complained about a fierce
stench from the site."
http://www.caiaweb.org/old-site/files/johal-negev.pdf

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 AM

""Why don't Palestinian Israelis join then?""

Are you trying to imply that Palestinian recruits would be trusted, or welcomed, by the IDF?

That is simply laughable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.""

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.

To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Keith A has never acknowledged that there ARE two sides to the argument.

Keith A has reacted in a one sided, bigotted manner, ignored evidence presented, belittled and denigrated every evidential source other than the Israeli government, even when the source was Israeli soldiers, Israeli human rights organisations and Israeli political opposition.

Keith A has not produced one single piece of hard evidence for his stance, and consistently relied on "Israel refute this"....WELL, THEY WOULD WOULDN'T THEY!.

Is this catalogue of deeply entrenched bias a picture of the balanced and fair minded individual that Keith A loudly proclaims himself to be?

In my opinion NO! IT IS NOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:46 AM

No Don, that was a different article.
The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement


Are you trying to imply that Palestinian recruits would be trusted, or welcomed, by the IDF?

That is simply laughable.

A few do choose to join.
Also many Druze Arabs join.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

""The evidence to convict is just not there in any of the cases you have raised.
Find an unequivocal crime and put it up.""

Well there you have it folks, our self appointed judge and jury, the "fair minded" (hollow laugh) Keith A has found Israel innocent.

In the real world, however, there is more than enough evidence to try the case in the International Court, and that is exactly what should happen.

The only reason it hasn't happened is the US and UK support for Israel, which repeatedly vetoes any such move.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:58 AM

Last Guest was me.
Please give details of the "repeated" vetoes against prosecution Don.

And Don, this was your post about the article.

Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:19 AM

""Jim, the settlements around that toxic dump are illegal and Israel is trying to move them away.
As the responsible Israeli government official said, in one of your own links, "No one should be living next to a toxic dump," Regev says. "The solution is that all Bedouin[s] live in recognised communities where they receive the services they deserve.""

Are we supposed to believe that the Israeli government has proved incapable of moving them in the nine years since that article was published?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

""The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement""

Thank you guest, I was aware of that.

Jim's post however was in two parts, and I was referring to what came before the above.

Typical of Keith to use his trademark cherry pick to answer the point that enables him to dodge the issue, rather than the one which was actually made.

Ir still remains the case that there was an eight year gap between the publication of the report on that TOXIC (it really is toxic Keith) site and Regev's sudden desire to move the Bedouins, in spite of which, the Bedouins are still there.

I suspect that they will be the last to be evacuated and that most of them will be placed in the poorest townships, with high crime levels, as has been reported.

The fact is that they are farmers with the capacity to supply food to the nation, while sustaining themselves without government aid

They have been reduced to penury by government refusal to acknowledge their long established tenure of that land, as evidenced by the "non recognition" of their villages and the fencing off of their grazing to reduce their livestock and wreck their financial independence.

Lastly, of course, the Bedouin were already in residence in that area when the decision to locate a toxic site there was made.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM

""Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.""

Maybe that's the problem. It is obvious to YOU and the Israelis.

Any other country on earth may move its weaponry within, or close to, its own borders and it will pass unremarked by the rest of the world.

Any country, that is, except Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Egypt.

And what major feature do these countries share? They all have the misfortune to be near neighbours of Israel, the only state on the planet (apart from the US) which respects no national borders whatsoever.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM

""Everyone else accepts the obvious truth.""

Maybe that's the problem. It is obvious to YOU and the Israelis.

Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don.
You are on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 08:29 AM

"I thought the Muslim Brotherhood were elected"
Are you claiming that the regime you have persistently described as "oppressive" and that you used to describe as persecuting Bedouins are no longer this and are to be believed rather than the Egyptians demanding democracy
Are these protesters what – terrorists?
"OK, but that is the only explanation that makes sense."
You have ignored the reasons given by the democratic opposition for the flooding – if that doesn't make sense – show why.
"Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic, so what is your point?"
All "Ordinary" refuse sites are toxic when there are people in the area depending on their livelihood and water from polluted soil.
You have been invited to show how the specified conditions do not coincide to the reported conditions on this site – are these reports "anti-Semite lies" even though they have been drawn from scientific journals and reports from the Israeli authorities – you have been given all the links.
An added factor to the site's toxicity is the vermin which scavenge from these sites long after the rubbish has been bulldozed.
The Israelis have put no plans forward to make this site habitable; you have declined the invitation to show that they have. The likelihood of them carrying out the necessary work is contradicted by the fact that they have known about other toxic sites for over a decade and have done nothing whatever.
Had it not been for worldwide outrage and threats of war crimes proceedings the Israelis would have moved the Bedouins onto the site long before now.
"in the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria."
Don't be fucking ridiculous.
"and pointed out the lack of evidence to refute it."
A total lie – you have denied it and have admitted that the only claims for Israel not being part of the massacre comes from the Israelis and have been given a mountain of evidence to show they were – you even went as far as to accuse Israeli soldiers who were there as being "untrustworthy" (anti-Semitic, no doubt), and have totally ignored the evidence of the Jewish nurse who said she saw Israeli troops observing the massacre and doing nothing, then hiding the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground.
They then erected a sports stadium over the mass graves to make sure they couldn't be found.
How long are you going to continue this disgusting nonsense?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:25 AM

"Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don."
Don't you dare use me for your lying arguments - I asked you to produce evidence that I have said anything on the matter - you haven't and I didn't.
"the whole world not accepting it are you, Don, and President Assad of Syria"
Utter crap - all we have had so far is a reported statement from Reuter, quoting an (in your own words) oppressive regime making unqualified claims - no more.
Personally I would rather give credence to the statements of the democratic forces in Egypt rather than an (in your own words) oppressive regime - that you would prefer to believe an (in your own words) oppressive regime, says what needs to be said about you and your lying case.
"The world" has yet to make a pronouncement on the matter - perhaps we can ask Captain Janeway to ask its opinion as she zooms past on her way to fight the Borgs.
Your arguments get more moronic as you put them forward and your persistent practice of lying to make your case is evidence (the only piece you have produced so far) that you have no case to make.
STOP LYING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:29 AM

You put such a lot of bollocks into one post, it is impossible to deal with it all at once!
It is all old stuff too.

All "Ordinary" refuse sites are toxic when there are people in the area depending on their livelihood and water from polluted soil.

No they are not.
I live near some very large ones.
Properly run as the Israeli ones are, they do not pollute the land or the water.
The rubbish is buried at the end of each day's tipping so there is no problem with vermin.
I have told you this enough times, why do you you keep demonstrating your stupid ignorance?
Ordinary refuse sites are not toxic.

I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:38 AM

"it is impossible to deal with it all at once!"
Not to a normal literate human being it ain't, just an excuse to avoid answering - which you have done none of.
"It is all old stuff too."
Been there, done that
When do massacres and human rights abuses become out-of-date?
As far as the toxicity of the site is concerened -proof that it is has been long provided and you have refused to provide one single reason why it isn't.
Your crass "I've lived near..." is total shit as has been pointed out and ignored by you
Done and dusted!
"I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can."
Can't wait.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:43 AM

believed rather than the Egyptians demanding democracy

The democracy demonstrators won.
The Muslim Brotherhood were freely elected.
They might have been expected to sympathise with Hamas as brother Islamists.
The attack through the tunnels pushed them too far.
They not only closed Hamas' tunnels, they pumped in a million gallons of shit.
I see no reason not to believe them about why.
What is your reason Jim?

Personally I would rather give credence to the statements of the democratic forces in Egypt rather than an (in your own words) oppressive regime
Yes, I too would rather give credence to the Muslim brothers rather than Hamas.
We agree Jim.


"Even Jim says he does not deny this fact Don."
You challenged me for suggesting that you denied it Jim!
Do you deny it or not?

It will be a few hours before I can finish this demolition job.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:49 AM

As far as the toxicity of the site is concerened -proof that it is has been long provided and you have refused to provide one single reason why it isn't.
Yes I have.
Ordinary properly run refuse sites are not toxic and do not pollute.

Your crass "I've lived near..." is total shit as has been pointed out and ignored by you
It is true.
You can not point out that I do not live near them, they are all around Hertford.
My daughter in Ware has one across the road from her.
Your are being ridiculous about this.
It is a non-issue.

Now wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 12:27 PM

According to the thread title, Israel has been unUNfriended. Gotta love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 01:29 PM

"Your are being ridiculous about this."
'Fraid it's you being ridiculous Keithie.
Comparing the situation in Israel with that of middle England is utter ******* nonsense and you know it.
"What is your reason Jim?"
You've given the reason yourself; they are an "oppressive regime" who are presently at war with their own people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 03:43 PM

Comparing the situation in Israel with that of middle England is utter ******* nonsense and you know it.
You are wrong.
Israel is fanatical about preserving its aquifers, and the regime described by Haaretz is exactly the same as that used here.
There are no issues around ordinary waste sites.
It is a non-issue.

The Muslim Brotherhood are the freely elected government of Israel, and unlike Hamas will have to seek re-election.
They are not at war with their electorate.
You made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 03:52 PM

Correction, "freely elected government of Egypt"

totally ignored the evidence of the Jewish nurse who said she saw Israeli troops observing the massacre and doing nothing,.

Her testimony was given at the enquiry.
She only saw soldiers outside the camp.
They would not have been able to see into the warren of streets.

then hiding the evidence by bulldozing the bodies into the ground
You made that up Jim.
She reported no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:05 PM

""The Muslim Brotherhood are the freely elected government of Israel,""

REALLY???

You're even confusing yourself!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

No.
You are demonstrating your profound ignorance AGAIN Don.
You make a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM

BBC.
As it happened: Egypt election result
Key Points
Mohammed Mursi of the Muslim Brotherhood has won Egypt's presidential election

He took 51.73% of the votes cast, some 13.23 million votes in total

Former PM Ahmed Shafiq polled 12.35 million votes, the electoral commission announced
Huge cheers went up from thousands gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square after the result was known

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:38 AM

""Keith A thinks that if the accusation is disputed you must look at both sides of the argument.
That is because Keith A is not a prejudiced bigot.""

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.

To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Keith A has never acknowledged that there ARE two sides to the argument.

Keith A has reacted in a one sided, bigotted manner, ignored evidence presented, belittled and denigrated every evidential source other than the Israeli government, even when the source was Israeli soldiers, Israeli human rights organisations and Israeli political opposition.

Keith A has not produced one single piece of hard evidence for his stance, and consistently relied on "Israel refute this"....WELL, THEY WOULD WOULDN'T THEY!.

Is this catalogue of deeply entrenched bias a picture of the balanced and fair minded individual that Keith A loudly proclaims himself to be?

In my opinion NO! IT IS NOT!

Don T.""

Post completely ignored by Keith A, who HAS no answer, because his bias is revealed in almost everything he says.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 06:13 AM

""The one with the Regev quote was this one, May 2012.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/may/09/bedouin-land-culture-israel-resettlement"" (the guest in question was Keith)

Thank you guest, I was aware of that.

Jim's post however was in two parts, and I was referring to what came before the above.

Typical of Keith to use his trademark cherry pick to answer the point that enables him to dodge the issue, rather than the one which was actually made.

Ir still remains the case that there was an eight year gap between the publication of the report on that TOXIC (it really is toxic Keith) site and Regev's sudden desire to move the Bedouins, in spite of which, the Bedouins are still there.

I suspect that they will be the last to be evacuated and that most of them will be placed in the poorest townships, with high crime levels, as has been reported.

The fact is that they are farmers with the capacity to supply food to the nation, while sustaining themselves without government aid

They have been reduced to penury by government refusal to acknowledge their long established tenure of that land, as evidenced by the "non recognition" of their villages and the fencing off of their grazing to reduce their livestock and wreck their financial independence.

Lastly, of course, the Bedouin were already in residence in that area when the decision to locate a toxic site there was made.

Don T.""

Yet another awkward post ignored completely by "fair minded Keith", who vigorously insisted that he always answers posts honestly (another hollow laugh) and never ignores them.

Almost twelve hours after the posting of the second one, he has yet to acknowledge the existence of either, or to answer either honestly, or dishonestly.

Perhaps because he is only able to do the latter?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:53 PM

Or perhaps because he hoped they would pass unnoticed?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:56 PM

""He took 51.73% of the votes cast, some 13.23 million votes in total

Former PM Ahmed Shafiq polled 12.35 million votes, the electoral commission announced
Huge cheers went up from thousands gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square after the result was known""

In case you haven't been paying attention (AGAIN), they aren't cheering now!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:19 AM

Keith A has been asked numerous times to look at both sides of the argument.
To which Keith A has repeatedly responded that Israel is innocent, Israel is right, Israel treats its minorities well and Israel always acts in self defence.

Not true.
I have never claimed that.
In response, and only in response, to you and your phalanx of Israel haters posting screeds of anti-Israel propaganda, I have related Israel's version of events.
I have only ever claimed that the events are disputed and the evidence equivocal.

An open minded person could not object, but you can not bear it.
You only want to consider one side, because you are a prejudiced bigot

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:44 AM


In case you haven't been paying attention (AGAIN), they aren't cheering now!

In what democracy anywhere do crowds cheer their elected government Don?
In what democracy anywhere are there no demos. against the elected government Don?

They are still accountable and freely elected Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:04 AM

"Israel is fanatical about preserving its aquifers,"
Israel is equally fanatical about acquiring territory for Jewish settlements, to the extent of driving thousands of people onto a poisoned (the description of their own health department) land to get it.
Bedouins have lived on similar land, and worse for over a decade without Israel lifting a finger to change that situation.
Far from treating the toxic nature of Bedouin living conditions the Israeli regime has used toxic sprays on Bedouin crops and livestock in order to drive off a people from land that they have occupied for centuries.
The very act of forcibly moving an ethnic group off their land to make room for another people is racist driven fascism in its purest (probably an inappropriate word to describe some of this planet's worst atrocities) form; the methods being employed to carry this out, chemical warfare is ethnic cleansing, no less.
You are fully aware of all this, just as you are fully aware of the toxic nature of the proposed forcible re-settlement, which is why you refuse to offer an alternative explanation by answering the list of definitions which make the site toxic, even though some of those descriptions are based on the Israeli's description of the site.
Those conditions, in their own words, will continue to exist for years, even decades - the site you are defending will remain toxic for the foreseeable future.
Had it not been for world-wide condemnation and the threat of prosecution for war crimes, the Bedouins would have been forcibly moved onto this site long ago, almost certainly without any preparatory work being carried out, or even a promise to close it, leaving the Bedouins to live, fall ill, suffer and die because of their toxic surroundings.
THAT IS YOUR NON-ISSUE
I have no doubt you will continue to ignore all this and refuse to refute these facts with evidence of your own, but once again, thanks for the opportunity to show what a nasty, fanatical wee jobbie you are.
I see you are continuing to defend the "democratic" nature of a regime that you have described as an oppressive human rights abuser - is this your definition of "democracy" or have you taken another trip down that good ol' road to Damascus?
"Do you deny it or not?"
Where did I ever state it Keith - a quick cut 'n paste should do the trick? You appear to have ben caught out lying about this one too.
You have my position on Egypt's motives, which, once again, you have refused to respond to with evidence, or even opinion of your own concerning the democratic forces statement of why the tunnels were flooded.
You seem to have re-entered into your Dalek-like repetition mode on this one.
Jim Carroll   
"I will rubbish the rest of you ludicrous post when I can."
Was really looking forward to this - still too busy?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:09 AM

""Not true.
I have never claimed that.
In response, and only in response, to you and your phalanx of Israel haters posting screeds of anti-Israel propaganda, I have related Israel's version of events.
I have only ever claimed that the events are disputed and the evidence equivocal.

An open minded person could not object, but you can not bear it.
You only want to consider one side, because you are a prejudiced bigot""

Ah yes! The tried and trusted Keith A "get out clause".

"I am only relaying the words of others, so the fact that I ignore or deny everything else is their fault, not mine"

Never once have you produced anything other than rehashed Israeli propaganda, and I would point out that a significant proportion of my ""phalanx of Israel haters posting screeds of anti-Israel propaganda"" are Israelis!

And those who repeatedly try to get you to acknowledge that there are two sides to the argument are the ""prejudiced bigots""

Classic, but getting very, very boring!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:22 AM

you are fully aware of the toxic nature of the proposed forcible re-settlement, which is why you refuse to offer an alternative explanation by answering the list of definitions which make the site toxic, even though some of those descriptions are based on the Israeli's description of the site
No.
They are all harmless refuse sites except the one where there are unrecognised and illegal habitations.

"Do you deny it or not?"
Where did I ever state it Keith
Nowhere Jim.
That is why I ask "Do you deny it or not?"

Don, I absolutely accept that there are two sides.
You lot put up the anti-Israel view, and I raise no objections.
I reply with Israel's version, and you all throw your teddies out of your prams!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:40 AM

"Nowhere Jim."
Then why did you lie and say I had?
"denying it except you and Don."
"They are all harmless refuse sites"
Which makes the Israeli health department, scientific journals and the UN, who pointed out that it was a war crime to move people onto such a site liars (antisemitic, no doubt)
How long can you keep up this fanatical farce without responding to one single fact that has been put before you with evidence of your own rather than unqualified denial?
"I reply with Israel's version,"
No you don't, you reply only with your own bigoted defence of war crimes and atrocities - show us where you have even linked to Israel's or anybody's versions THESE ARE YOUR INHUMAN VIEWS AND YOURS ALONE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 04:53 AM

"They are all harmless refuse sites"
Which makes the Israeli health department, scientific journals and the UN, who pointed out that it was a war crime to move people onto such a site liars
You must have misunderstood them Jim.
Ordinary refuse sites are harmless.

Then why did you lie and say I had (denied it)?
Sorry if I got it wrong, but you challenged me strongly for suggesting the weapons were bound for Hezbollah.
So, do you deny it or not?

show us where you have even linked to Israel's or anybody's versions
I have linked to pages on Israel's MFA site, to pages about Ismail Khaldi, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 05:48 AM

This is as far as it can go
You have been given the toxic elements of this site point by point which you haven't even bothered to respond to.
You have been invited to show how each of these elements does not relate to conditions on this site which you have not even bothered to respond to.
You have passed of one of the largest single massacres in the latter half of the twentieth century, facilited by and participated in by the Israeli regime as "having nothing to do with the other than the misdemeanor of not stopping it" - despite the evidence of Israelis who were there and took part in it, and you have described as "untrustworthy".
You have openly supported ethnic cleansing, racist eviction and chemical warfare.
You have consistently lied about facts, about other people's contributions to this thread, and you have lied about lying.
You have called those who have opposed your obscenities, liars, Antisemites, gullible, supporters of terrorism, prejudiced bigots..... which accurately sums up your own position.
You have contradicted yourself over and over again.
You are now stating openly that your position is totally bigoted in favour of Israeli war crimes and abuses of human rights.
"I reply with Israel's version"
You have given no evidence whatever to back up your case and you have refused or ignored all requests to do so.
You are, by your own words and your actions a lying, racist, supporter of war crimes and abuses - we knew that from your statments here and on other threads, notably your extremely vicious attacks on British citizens from other cultures on the disgusting 'Muslim Prejudice' thead.
I never expected an honest, informative debate from you, but was happy to let you present yourself in your full fascist, racist, lying glory.
You have done that admirably, far better than any of us could.
"You'll never get a free lunch in this town again" - to borrow a phrase.
I can't speak for Don and the others who find you a disgusting little toe-rag, but - to borrow one of your own phrases "my work, (or rather, your work), "is done here".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 06:04 AM

I have not called anyone or anything antisemitic on either of these threads.

You resort to personal attack again Jim, as you always do when losing an argument.