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BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.

Larry The Radio Guy 20 Jun 13 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 11:56 AM
Bobert 21 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 13 - 11:34 PM
Bobert 23 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 13 - 02:27 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 13 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM
Bobert 23 Jun 13 - 08:14 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 12:04 AM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 08:34 AM
sciencegeek 24 Jun 13 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 11:30 AM
dick greenhaus 24 Jun 13 - 11:43 AM
sciencegeek 24 Jun 13 - 12:07 PM
dick greenhaus 24 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 01:03 PM
sciencegeek 24 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM
dick greenhaus 24 Jun 13 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 01:56 PM
Larry The Radio Guy 24 Jun 13 - 02:28 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 02:34 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 02:46 PM
sciencegeek 24 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 03:10 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 13 - 03:51 PM
dick greenhaus 24 Jun 13 - 04:20 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 04:32 PM
sciencegeek 24 Jun 13 - 08:19 PM
Bobert 24 Jun 13 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM
Bobert 25 Jun 13 - 08:08 AM
sciencegeek 25 Jun 13 - 08:56 AM
Bobert 25 Jun 13 - 09:27 AM
sciencegeek 25 Jun 13 - 09:43 AM
Bobert 25 Jun 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 01:59 PM
Bobert 25 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 04:45 PM
dick greenhaus 25 Jun 13 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 06:13 PM
Don Firth 25 Jun 13 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM
Bobert 25 Jun 13 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Jun 13 - 08:46 PM
Bobert 25 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 11:48 PM

I appreciate your passion, Bobert. And certainly agree about the destructiveness of Monsanto. Yet the only way to get people on board is to understand where they are coming from.   I'm not talking here about Monsanto, but about the American people who are allowing Monsanto to get away with wreaking such havoc.......and about those who are afraid to stand up to the corporate giants.

Calling people all sorts of derogatory names doesn't do anything to advance the cause or 'convince' them to come onto our side.

And, I don't think we should let Obama off the hook. If congress wanted a bill to destroy the earth (which may be what the so-called "Monsanto Protection Act" is doing, and he decided to compromise by saying we'd only destroy half the earth, I don't think that would be good enough.


I think it's totally ok---and I think essential----for all of us to hold U.S. politicians, including Obama, accountable for their irresponsible and destructive actions, and, if need by, work to give power to any third political party who is going to follow their principles, no matter what.

As for the hostility towards GfS....obviously there's some history there. And if he's a supporter of those Republicans who are so actively contributing to our destruction, the absolutely, put him in his place. But I certainly don't get this from his postings in this particular thread.

Sometimes it's a problem when we focus so much more on the messenger than the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 12:06 AM

Larry The Radio Guy: "And if he's a supporter of those Republicans who are so actively contributing to our...."

As I've said a few times on here, now, 'I'm NOT with the Party...I'm with the band!"

..and as far as my 'history'..hey, I've been cool, and objective..as on here...but ideologue parrots HATE that...if it goes contrary to their indoctrinations.

..and Dorothy, what Democratic Organization are you with??

I just posted this a short while ago.."Don't pay attention to what they say, and the rhetoric...WATCH what they DO!"

..anyway, we'll save that for the 'Obama Administration' thread..but as long as we're here...any rebuttal, take to the other thread, I'll be happy to accommodate you....but this is certainly a case of, and in quite a literal sense..."'Hope and Change', seems to resemble 'Bait and Switch'!!!!
(Remember, forget the rhetoric...watch what he's done!!)'

Other thread...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 11:56 AM

I just went to the 'other thread', and if you look, you'll see that they are having the same problem with the idiot-logues over their, so Larry, that might help explain my 'history'. Check it out!

Now back to GMO's, and how their nutritionally deprived 'brain food' has diminished people into 'political animals'...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM

Yo, Larry...

GfinS and I have a history and don't get too concerned about it being all that hostile... We're buddies... Well, kinda...

As for GfinS and Obama... He has been 100% anti-Obama going back to the '08 primaries and has never said one thing nice about Obama and now is locked into blaming everything that goes wrong on the planet on Obama...

So much for GfinS...

As for trying to play nice with people who are out to fuck up your life and our planet... Yeah, I can be nice to them... I have to... I live in the South and am surrounded by them... As for telling them that they are right when they push anti-human, anti-Earth, anti-common sense policies, sorry, homie don't do that...

If they want to start a new war I'll be the first to be on the streets protesting... I have a 40+ year old history of taking to the streets when these ignorant people try to push their fascist, war-monging, planet-destroying, mean-spirited policies...

I believe that we should be doing everything we can to make a society that lives up to the preamble of the American Constitution and that means providing laws that promote equality...

The right wing hates equality... They do everything in their power to make out country one that provides an opportunity of the "pursuit of happiness" by the upper 5% of wage earners at the expense of the bottom 95%...

I am a firm believer that when we oppress anyone then we oppress everyone in the long run... You know, "What goes around comes around"... If the right wing pushes the 95% too hard guess what happens???

Armed revolution happens and then the 5% find's itself oppressed...

Stupid people don't study history...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 11:34 PM

Yeah, Good ol' Bobert....creative in so many ways...but his politics, jeez Louise!...If only he could 'create' his way out of Democratic Party brain-lock. I'd do anything I could to spare him the ignominy of bettin' on the wrong horse...but then there aren't too many alternative horses out there....I think the ones with integrity just don't fall in line with either of the two predominant psychic vampire political parties....speaking of horses, and Bobert...'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him play a banjo'...or something like that.

Oh well, back to GMO's and still waiting for one of the Obamacrats to come up with a verifiable answer, as to why, if Obama was all in for the Obama health care concerns, why did he put Monsanto's rider, into his budget proposal.....There's a LOT more contradictory instances about Obama's actions, or in-actions, that leads one to ask such thought provoking questions..but this one's on GMO's and his benevolence to Monsanto, in light of the fact they are a bit anti environmental and health...Either Obama is, too, OR he's a wolf in sheep's clothing, and the 'so-called liberals' are just to fucked up to see it, and too vainly proud to call it as it is.

I know!!.....he signed it because he's hoping only Republicrats will eat the crap, and get sick and die..and he can tell the IRS not to give health care to them!!....Naw, that doesn't work either...but just as stupid as any other reason, than the obvious!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM

Another beef I have with Monsanto is that with Round Up resistant crops there will be increased chemical use and increased chemical runoff... That's not good for streams, ponds, lakes of bays...

I have a pond that is fed by runoff and it takes quite a bit of work to get it to support any life other than the usual duckweed & loose-strife infestations you get from too much runoff... The nitrogen feeds them and prevents the water from oxygenating...

I'd rather pay a few cents more for a box of cereal if that's what it takes to not go poisoning our water...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 02:27 PM

Going right along with Bobert, (this time), what do you think will happen next, a class action lawsuit against Monsanto for their damages????...or MORE government sanctioned grants and exemptions for them??
we know Monsanto OWNS much of the earth's water rights(look it up), and now they want a Monopoly on the food sources and production. They have successfully gotten through legislation, squeezing family owned small farms out of business, and passed legislation to control what, and how much people can plant(fortunately there's too many growers to enforce it all, but they're making great 'progress')...what next?..Oh, and by the way, a lot of that stuff got passed under a Republican administration, as well, (in all fairness).
Yes, we have the best system money can buy!....we used to have a good one, but money bought loopholes and media influence, for which ever party's constituents needed to be appealed to...but this latest stunt, may have just tipped their hand....and by 'their' I mean the corporation's covert influence peddling with compliant and complicit politicians, regardless of party.

I know, I know, I'm a 'racist' huh?......
.......in your wettest of dreams!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 03:47 PM

First of all, the Monsanto rider was inserted to the bill anonymously so anyone blaming any specific person for putting it there had better have some AWESOME evidence to prove it.

Secondly, Obama either signs the bill or he vetoes it. There is no line-item veto anymore so he can't strip it out if we assume he wanted to.

Thirdly, the Monsanto Protection Act as well as every other provision in the bill expires in September. So it all may just be a tempest in a teacup.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 04:26 PM

Here, try again!
...or take your pick...

Are you trying to tell me, that a REPUBLICAN Congressman or Senator, hands a Democrat president, a bill to insert into the DEMOCRAT budget, and without reading it, or asking what it is, he signs it???
What if the Republican Congressman or Senator, just handed him a document, seeking the President's resignation to sign???...and the President doesn't read it or asks "What's this?"

...and line item vetos would only apply to AFTER the bill is submitted...not before.

Line Item Veto Re-Enactment Activity of 2009

Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Senator John McCain (R-AZ) introduced legislation of a limited version of the line-item veto. This bill would give the president the power to withdraw earmarks in new bills by sending the bill BACK to Congress minus the line-item vetoed earmark. Congress would then vote on the line-item vetoed bill with a majority vote under fast track rules to make any deadlines the bill had.

The keyword here is 'BACK'....not before it is introduced...by a Congressman or Senator from the opposite party, BEFORE the proposed bill is sent!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:14 PM

I agree with your 2:27 post, GfinS...

Maybe you should examine how it differs from your usual post and learn that when you talk policy and leave your Obama hatred out of the discussion then you get further than when you do it the other way...

Just a suggestion...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:45 PM

>>Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) and Senator John McCain (R-AZ) introduced legislation of a limited version of the line-item veto. This bill would give the president the power to withdraw earmarks in new bills by sending the bill BACK to Congress minus the line-item vetoed earmark. Congress would then vote on the line-item vetoed bill with a majority vote under fast track rules to make any deadlines the bill had.<<

There is NO line item veto on the books--period. Legislation introduced is NOT a law.

>>Are you trying to tell me, that a REPUBLICAN Congressman or Senator, hands a Democrat president, a bill to insert into the DEMOCRAT budget, and without reading it, or asking what it is, he signs it???<<

Firstly, unlike you, I make no accusation against any specific person because it was done anonymously. Did Obama read it? What do you think? They hand him the bill to sign and he starts reading it word-for-word? How many pages was it? No, of course, he didn't read it. Did he want it in? I don't know.

>>What if the Republican Congressman or Senator, just handed him a document, seeking the President's resignation to sign???...and the President doesn't read it or asks "What's this?"<<

It isn't done that way so your example is pointless--as is the vast majority of what you post.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:04 AM

Here's a quote from an article(I'll post link):

"During debate over the appropriations bill last month, Senator Jon Tester, a Montana Democrat and organic farmer, said the plan sets a "dangerous" legal precedent and shows the government supports companies at the expense of the public."

I AGREE!

Link: From Bloomberg

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:34 AM

GfinS,

It's great that you have quit with the Tin-Foil-Nation rhetoric with Obama snuggling up to Monsanto...

BTW, have you ever been in the US Senate chamber during a so-called debate??? There's practically no one in there listening other than the visitors... Senators will hold the floor and get stuff into the record... That's about it... Monsanto wasn't hardly on the radar screen when the bill was being written...

Now it is... Good... Too late for now but it's good that it's finally being debated and may actually get reversed down the road... That would be good thing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:11 AM

we Americans are spoiled by the notion of "cheap" food.... TRANSTAAFL - theres no such thing as a free lunch- there is a cost to cheap food, which ends up not being cheap at all...

listed below are two not-for-profit organizations that are working to preserve the genetics of livestock & plants that have been "replaced" by agribusiness as not worth the effort. Support the folks who are doing more than complaining, but are taking the needed steps to at least preserve what they can before it too is lost.

http://www.albc-usa.org/

http://www.seedsavers.org/

the next step is to support local producers who use IPM ( Intergrated Pest Management) or are Organic farmers or at least grow & sell locally. If your $$$ goes to the chain stores that ship in food from around the world instead of locally, well guess what - it is your $$$ that is being used to back Monsanto & the rest of the handful of mega corps involved in food production around the world.

how about backing a FArm Bill that gives more support to small farmers than to the mega corps that are the real "takers" in our society.

bitching about GMO is akin to arguing about the deck chair seating on the Titanic... the real problem is that chunk of ice ahead & someone at the helm who didn't know how to handle the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:30 AM

Not so fast, Mr. Bobert....instead of signing it, he could have sent it back, with the explanation, that some of the riders, be withdrawn, before he would sign it, accompanied with an address to the nation, as to why he was doing it...the biggest obstacle was, besides the fact that the rider was slipped in at the last moment, is that given the mood of the country, at present, Obama gives a speech, and nobody believes him any more... and then it is reduced down to party bickering over the 'talking points' as to the why's of it.
Now, I know that the 'sequester' was an issue, and he bullshitted too much about it, at the time..but a REAL leader would have taken the bull by the horns, forced Congress to back off of some of the riders, with the threat of not signing it, explain it to the American people, and 'stick to his guns'. Had he explained it, as a statesman, instead of not knowing when to stop campaigning, and given examples to the people, on the riders, and that he was sending it back to Congress to fix, he actually might have gained support and respect of the people.
As it is now, he is still complicit....and that has been done before!
..and I think that is a fair assessment.
The other obstacle, is that the American people are VERY ill-informed, and misinformed, due to the climate of the 'right/left' bullshit. Had this administration been 'up front' and one half as 'transparent' as they promised to be, and cut back on the outright lies, he could have easily pulled it off, and be the 'hero of the day'. But, as it is now, he is still complicit
Fair enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:43 AM

While any law protecting a company or industry from lawsuits is an abomination, I'd still like to see some evidence of adverse health effects from GMOs. WE've been living with genetically modified plants and animals for miillennia now, thanks to selective breeding, and the results have been largely positive.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:07 PM

Dick, it's all too common for us to only consider how something immediately affects us. In the case of GMO, it really is more than immediate health risks... it is what is happening to the surrounding environment ... the unexpected consequences.

The most compelling issue is the placement of genes into corn - a wind pollinated crop that has quirky genetics to begin with. How do you protect your non-GMO corn from being fertilized/contaminated by the farmer a quarter mile down the road. The seed producers have sued farmers who used their "contaminated" seed corn for the next year's planting - claiming that the farmer was depriving the company of their proper payment.

Some genes allow the use of pesticides that couldn't be used on the crop before, while others insert genes that may actually increase resistence in target pest populations.

Organic farmers have issues with using the Bt gene, one of the few pest controls that meet organic standards when using the original baterium, in such a widespread fashion that threatens to increase the likelihood of resistent pest populations. Remember - the rat race of "resistence" is all part of evolution and natural selection.

If increased pesticide use causes increased mortality in bees and other pollenators, I don't care if it doesn't affect my immediate health. It's screwing up the rest of my envirnment that I do care about.

We improved the sanitation in cities, which did improve human health... at the expense of the water bodies that ended up taking in the waste. Now we have cleaner city streets... but polluted water bodies that can't support aquatic/marine life the way they did before.

Everything has a cost... the smart thing is to figure out that cost BEFORE committing yourself to a course of action.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:52 PM

Sciencgeek-
I agree. Nobody gets nothin' for nothin'. THe problem of corn cross-pollination has been around for a long, long time: Henry Wallace, for one, made a fortune by selling hybrid corn seed to farmers. THe point is, they bought it because the hybrid corn produced far higher yields than their older varieties.
Organic farming sounds good, but leads to lower productivity and higher food prices; something our overpopulated world can't live with.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:54 PM

There will be benefits from the research.

The problem is testing and regulation. The Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration need to be strong.

The Republican congressmen, by cutting funding and passing questionable legislation, are allowing unacceptable applications.

Monsanto is a marketing as well as a research organization. They buy patents of researchers in universities and other institutions. Some may be used for purposes other than intended by the originator.
Regulation is the answer, but it will not be forthcoming until the almost 50-50 split in the electorate is changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:03 PM

Many gardeners have been planting a cross-generic plant or two in their flower beds for years. Some are not sterile, and can be easily propagated.

Most of our staple products are far removed from the original stock(s), through selection and hybridization, as stated by Dick G.

We now have the means to speed up the process, which has to be regulated, not stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM

There is a big difference between hybrid corn & GMO... there is also the possibility that the GMO corn will not produce the larger yields that come with hybrid vigor. In fact, by increasing the use of pesticides, there is a greater danger of depleting soil fertility by destroying the natural tilth of the soil.

I support IPM as a rational compromise to produce ag commodities. I also need to note that when fertilizers were first used, the results were great... BUT... in and of themselves, chemical fertilizers do more damage than good to the soil. And that gets compounded when farmers go to bigger & heavier equipment. There's a viscious cycle going on & everyone loses - except, for now, the mega corps.

The world food supply is largely based on a mere handful of crop plants- and these are wind pollinated. Do you really feel comfortable knowing that agribusiness bean counters can make decisions that affect the world's food supply? They've done so well in the past....

I do not like alarmist reactions... but I do know history and the parallels that I see are not comforting. We had also better understand that the carrying capacity of this planet is finite... we are fast approaching the limit of how many people can be fed, regardless of what is edible or how we produce food. As I said earlier... Malthus should be required reading in our schools.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:43 PM

I guess what I'm questioning is the " big difference between hybrid corn & GMO" AS yet, nobody has explained that to me (and I've asked biologists.)


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:56 PM

dick greenhaus: "While any law protecting a company or industry from lawsuits is an abomination, I'd still like to see some evidence of adverse health effects from GMOs."

In my first post about it, I commented on the same thing...and asked if there were any studies showing why this was a good or bad idea. Also, right along with that, is that, legislation giving them a pass on any liabilities, without impartial studies, was a bad idea.

It would be quite logical to assume, that Monsanto is pushing that kind of bill, looking at their financial profits, more than the nutritional profits...only comprehensive research could reveal a clue, rather than waiting to see the ill effects, should there be any, The 'representatives' should have taken the nutritional and health benefits, or risks to the public as their primary concern.
In my opinion of all of them who rammed it through is 'Shame on them', and hope they don't get re-elected!
They'd think twice, if Monsanto was exempt from damages, and THEY were held liable, for passing such a irresponsible bill so willy-nilly!
Obama should have never signed it...and being as this was an emergency finance bill, he should have sent it back, to have ALL unnecessary pork riders, and such exemptions, withdrawn from the bill from either party. I think the American public would have applauded him for that!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:28 PM

This has now become a very interesting and informative post. Great work folks. My own lack of knowledge keeps me from contributing much, but I enjoy being informed. Thanks to all of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:34 PM

Had Obama not signed the appropriations bill he would have been blamed for a partial shutdown of the government, GfinS...

You really don't understand politics, do you???

Not to mention that the bill was full of riders and not a whole lot, if any, knew exactly everything that was in the bill...

The Monsanto rider wasn't exactly shouting "Look here"...

Why is it that you expect Obama to read every page of every bill and know 1000000% of everything about everything???

Your standards are not reasonable - or rational - when it comes to Obama...

Like I said, "You really don't understand politics, do you???"... Or history, for that matter...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:46 PM

Yo, Dick...

One very major negative effect that GMOs have is on the environment with more chemicals now being sprayed than ever... When it rains these chemicals end up downstream in streams, lakes, ponds, rivers, bays and eventually the oceans... That negatively effects creatures that live in or around water and effects the water itself...

The other negative effect of GMOs is that small farmers are being threatened with law suits if bees carry the DNA from one filed to another... What this does is force mom 'n pops outta business who then have to sell their land to agri-business...

As for the physical effects on humans, we don't know for sure yet... Given the higher levels of pesticides on crops certainly doesn't make them more attractive...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:49 PM

GMO stands for genetically modified organism... meaning that the genetic material of an organism is manipulated in a lab setting to alter the genetic material for a specific purpose.

Hybrids are the result of taking two different species or varieties and interbreeding them to produce offspring that hopefully have improved characteristics over either of the parents. While labor intensive for crop plants, there is no addition or deletion of specific genes done to either parent stock to produce the new offspring.

Science fiction has dealt with the idea for quite some time... the term "pharming" was created to describe adding genes to produce drugs into critters like goats... milk the goat & then extract the insulin or whatever drup you wanted to produce.

what GMO means today is that a megacorp like Monsanto ( not the only one BTW) can add genetic material to a food crop like corn that carries the trait for resistence to a pesticide that would otherwise cause it to shrivel up and die if it ever came in contact with. Why? So they can market that pesticide to farmers at a hefty price with the promise that it will kill "competing weeds"... not to mention the cost of the "improved" seed.

The same technology that has allowed science to splice genes to determine what they do, or to come up with the entire genome of a species is also used to alter food crops. The difference with hybrids is that they do not reproduce "true" to the hybrid type... the genes get reshuffled or else are sterile. GMO's have demonstrated that once the new genetic material is introduced, it can & will stay around in the gene pool.

Harris Seed developed a popular hybrid tomato called Moreton. When they moved their operations, they misplaced the seeds for the parent tomatoes. it wasn't until both parent tomatoes were found that hybrid once again became available. Only Harris Seed can produce Moreton beefsteak tomatoes.

On the other hand, GMO corn created by Monsanto is fertile and can cross pollinate any other corn variety that comes in contact with the wind borne pollen. Which is why they sue any farmer that saves seed that was pollinated by their patented variety.

The techniques developed to manipulate genetic material can do a lot more than hybridization - which is no more than one on one fertilization. And a lot of crosses before you find a hybrid worth keeping.

The prime goal of agribusiness is to produce a commodity that makes them lots of money. Does it taste good? Is it worth eating? These are far less important factors. Look at the tobacco industry & then tell me that the health & safety of our food supply is all that important when compared to what really matters to bean counters... $$$. What good is cheap bread, if more and more people can't eat without getting sick?


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:10 PM

Well, geek... As for tasting good that's what all that sodium and sugar are for... And we wonder why, as a nation, we are so unhealthy...

Duhhhhh...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

BTW, Dick...

Google up, "NaturalNews.com, Monsanto" for an eye opener on health effects...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:51 PM

Who introduced Sec. 735?

The measure expires September 30, 2013, when new legislation will be required.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:20 PM

"NaturalNews.com, Monsanto" doesn't seem to be an overly reliable source for data. I hold no brief for Monsanto---I worked for them once back in the 70s, and the (based on their performance back then) were more of a "Brainless" than a "Soulless" corporation.
    I'd like to point out that the GMO question isn't limited to the US. Genetically modified grains that require less water, f'rinstance, could be a godsend to many third world countries.
Regulation, of course, should be required, without hysteria involved.
   And, ScienceGeek, I still grow my own heirloom tomatoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:32 PM

I thought the article was pretty complete, Dick... Okay, maybe not smoking gun stuff but with the power that Monsanto has it's going to be real hard to expect anyone, the government included, to do an expensive and time consuming study on the effects of GMOs on humans... That just ain't going to happen...

Oh, and I grow my heirloom tomatoes, too... Organically, of course...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:19 PM

as I tried to point out in my earliest posts... the techniques are merely a tool. It's how the tool is used that raises the concerns.

GMO properly used is still not a magic bullet... anymore than heirloom varieties are. Each have their weak points.

We have invasive species damaging the environment... not just the insect & fish pests of late... but think of the rabbits in Australia or the blasted starlings released into Central Park in NYC by some misguided Shakespearean fans. Once the genie is out of the bottle, good luck getting him back in. It's the unintended consequences that concern me. I just can't relax & trust fate in the hands of greedy a-holes.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:29 PM

And the funny (not so) thing is that when we introduce invasive species that we think we are solving some other problem...

Think kudzu here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:29 PM

Bobert: "Why is it that you expect Obama to read every page of every bill and know 1000000% of everything about everything???
Your standards are not reasonable - or rational - when it comes to Obama..."

I guess you're right..how could anyone expect him to know every page..or what new lies are going on at the State Department, or Benghazi, or what his DOJ is lying about from day to day, not to mention the IRS, or the NSA, or Hillary not giving him any intel, or Susan Rice, whatever she just made up on her own, in front of the U.N., or where his shovel ready jobs went...I mean that's a lot to keep track of, especially when you have to make your press secretary look like a blithering idiot, trying to explain all this away....come to think of it, I'm surprised he didn't know the Monsanto rider was coming...you'd think the NSA would have told him!....besides, it's all too much to think about, when you have a safari in Africa to look forward to...so much fun..so little time!

GfS

P.S. Of course he doesn't know all that stuff...what do you think he is??..in charge???


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:08 AM

Just right wing, TeaKK talking points with 0% substance...

You obviously have no knowledge of American history, the real world of American politics or even a basic understanding of how the federal government actually works...

More Obama-Hate-Brigade manure from the catbox's Number One Obama-Hate-Brigade manure spreader...

Get a life, man... If that involves getting an education and learning real stuff and getting your head out of the right wing noise turbine then...

...so be it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:56 AM

the entry for Genetically modified organism in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is pretty good coverage of the issue and its history.

speaking of history... this tool has been around since 1983... that's three decades, so every political party in the world has had a crack at regulating or not regulating it, as the case may be.

would a diabetic consent to genetic manipulation if it meant controlling their condition throughout their lifetime? Genetic manipulation of somatic cells (those in the body, not the gametes that are for reproduction) could provide hormones needed but not available for whatever reason... growth hormone for those children who do not produce adequate amounts for what we term normal growth.

on the other hand we have people who currently use plastic surgery to achieve their ideal of beauty who would just love to use this tool on themselves or their unlucky offspring. Can you envision children that actually DO look like Barbie Dolls??? ... but there's always some banana republic that would have no problem with legal human genetic tinkering of any sort.

Regulation is only as good as the foresight of the regulators... which means you need folks who understand evolution and science. Putting Creationists in charge of genetic engineering is like putting the Flat Earth Society in charge of NASA.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:27 AM

That's the problems, geek...

Regulations are the enemy of the ignorant... That's all we hear from the right wing... They complain about every regulation that comes down the pike...

The Chamber of Commerce was blasting away at Obama in his first term saying that he was like some kind of dictator for the regulations that had been put in place during his first couple of years as president... Truth of the matter is that Obama was way behind Bush in new regulations at the same point in Bush's term so...

...John Dailey, then Chief-of-Staff, invited the Chamber of Commerce to present the regulations that Obama had put in place that they didn't like...

Guess what???

The Chamber not only couldn't think of any but shut the heck up about Obama being this monster regulator...

Here's the big problem with GMOs... Because we are in a cycle of Big Business getting whatever it wants there is no political will to conduct studies on:

1. The effects of GMOs on the physiology on man and other creatures...

2. The effects of GMOs on our environment...

3. The effects of GMOs on small farmers...

4. The effects on a society that shields any corporation from liability for damages...

5. The cost (in loss of per acre yield) in not using GMOs...

I mean, it seems that we are not operating with all the facts because they are not known... It's kinda like we are being told that GMOs are the way of the future in feeding mankind... I donno??? If you can now use more chemicals to control weeds and insects, where do those chemicals end up???

There are lots of unanswered questions and a more intelligent path would be to try to ferret out some truths (answers) about GMOs... I don't see that happening until one day, geeeeze, "we have a problem, Houston"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:43 AM

B,

I can remember back in the '60's & '70's when the so called new age was coming in, thinking to myself how these things are cyclic and -good grief - we would end up back in a resurrected version of the 1950's. Well, here it is...

We are back in the Age of Intolerance, trying to turn back the clock. The "I've got mine and screw the rest of you" mindset is back and the Ugly American is not a pretty sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 01:00 PM

Yup, it's very disheartening to see the mean 'n greedy in control of the country...

And equally disheartening is to see that they now own BIG MEDIA lock,stock and barrel and we as a nation are being fed a steady diet of propaganda...

Most people are decent and when they are informed support decent pro-human, pro-Earth policies...

When they are ill informed they are dangerous because they are susceptible to voting for the wrong people...

It is a vicious and depressing cycle as we descend further and further into a fascist state...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 01:59 PM

Bobert: "It is a vicious and depressing cycle as we descend further and further into a fascist state..."

Right!!!!...and if I had posted that, you'd say I was starting to sound like the TEA party!..the problem is that many of our 'regulatory agencies are corrupted too, by the very people they're supposed to be regulating OR by some farcical political agenda, rather than regulating for the well being of the public!! Where was the FDA of the USDA, when this was getting off the ground????... NOWHERE!

Bobert: "And equally disheartening is to see that they now own BIG MEDIA lock,stock and barrel and we as a nation are being fed a steady diet of propaganda..."

...and the 'big' media there was NEVER a word about it!....I was the first to break the story on here, and that was from a late night talk radio show, that mentioned it in passing...so the next day, before I posted it, I had to find it somewhere online., and then posted it. Nobody replies or responded, back then, because the story just wasn't carried....Do ya' think that the corporate media has a common interest with the corporate food production???

Bobert: "Here's the big problem with GMOs... Because we are in a cycle of Big Business getting whatever it wants there is no political will to conduct studies on:..."(and then you start a list of topics)

Again, you are absolutely CORRECT. The political will has been 'influenced' and subsequently corrupted by the mega corporations...and whether you agree or not, it has screwed over BOTH..YES BOTH, parties! There are several articles
(here's one of them..but there are more) about Miluski, and her part in it...that is IF you buy her rap. I've posted in regards to that weak rationalization already. There is NO valid reason this was allowed to be on the BUDGET!

Bobert: "Most people are decent and when they are informed support decent pro-human, pro-Earth policies...
When they are ill informed they are dangerous because they are susceptible to voting for the wrong people.."

AGAIN, RIGHT!!!....We can't even get the 'right', (as in 'correct') people nominated, that's how bad it's gotten!! You see Obama as the 'right' person...I do not..and that's OK..but his history, as president, is far more supporting my view on that. A REAL leader, would have refused to sign it, and send it back for removal of 'pork' and stupid exemption riders, before he could approve it. The FACT that he didn't, should tell you who he is really working for, behind the rhetoric...by the way, has Obama EVER issued a statement about it??? ..Perhaps, 'Silence is contentment.'??

Bobert: "If you can now use more chemicals to control weeds and insects, where do those chemicals end up???"

Either in your poop and in a lot of caskets!...or BOTH(sorta like our political parties!).

Nonetheless, I agree with your concerns...but I take exception to getting political rhetoric, from our government, in place of actions!...no matter who pretends to be 'in charge'!!

Regards Ol' Shoe Box Bob!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 03:41 PM

Obama is not the problem, GfinS... That's the parts that you refuse to understand... He is a stop gap and buying US some time to see if we can stop the fascist Republicans which are being led by the TeaKK'ers who represent less than 15% of America... That's what Fascism looks like...

Your constant whining about Obama is excatly what the fascists have planted in your head...

He's about the only person now standing in their way...

You may think this is some kinda of exaggeration on my part but it isn't... The Koch brothers own at least 50 Congressmen out right... Other folks allied with the Koch brothers own others... The entire TeaKK is owned by monied interests and are trying to shut down as much of the US government as they can...

Why???

Simple... Follow the $$$...

Lower taxes for the rich... No laws on how the rich get and stay rich... All risk passed on to the working class... Lousy paying jobs for the working class if they have a job at all... This is your TeaKK at work and you are repeating word for word what they have put in your head when you play scadalmania and mean moth Obama at every occasion... That's exactly what they expect from you... You are no different than Pavlov's dog...

I mean, when it comes to seein' some of forest you get it but you are so lost in the TeaKK Forst that you are blinded to just how much bullshit you have swallowed...

Yes, I defend Obama... No, I don't agree with everything he has done but, gosh, John McCain would have had US deep into at least one more Middle East war which would have further starved the beast and put us even closer to the TeaKK/Koch brothers perfect world of no New Deal, no nothing...

No thanks...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 04:45 PM

Well, I don't disagree with you about McCain...but everything you said about what I'm saying, as linked to the TEA party, is not true..BUT, you might think about and applying that same theory to yourself, and the Democrat Party, and to the corporations who own them.
Now, I know this is a bit of a drift from the thread..but I'm answering YOU!...

What we REALLY have here, is the actual policies that the U.S. government has been DOING..FORGET THE RHETORIC....The noose tightening policies are identical..undeclared wars, more government/corporate control, loopholes for their minions, spying on Americans, the Patriot Act, erosion of the Rule of Law of the Land--The Constitution, intrusion into every aspect of our lives, up to and including the IRS basically running our healthcare, government officials running rampant illegal programs with impunity, favoritism for crooked bankers and corporations, disinformation to not just the American people, but to the World body, at the U.N., whether it was Colin Powell, (Republican at the time), justifying the invasion of Iraq, or Susan Rice bullshitting about the video causing the Benghazi, supporting arms to drug cartels, absence of enforcing our borders(to which by Constitutional federal law they are mandated in doing)..and the list goes on and on...but because we fight amongst ourselves,as to 'whose fault it is' Republican or Democrat, we take out eyes off the fact, that it is the WHOLE of the U.S. government! The entire illusion that it is one side or the other, stops at our borders...the rest of the planet doesn't give a shit....it is U.S. policies, and nobody gives a rat's ass WHO it comes from...and needless to say, we have lost MAJOR respect and credibility in the rest of the world, both friends and foes.
Now you can look at all the above topics mentioned, and say, "Yeah, but the Republicans did it first"....but if the Democrats think it's so wrong, why are they still doing it, and then saying, as you just said(from a Democrat /talking point'), "Yeah, but the Republicans did it first"???
When I say, "It is BOTH, and they have been corrupted", you just revert back to a corrupted Democrat 'talking point' and say that I'm just parroting the TEA Party...which reminds me of a saying that I've said for years, "The weak accuse others of their motives"...in other words, YOU are getting your 'talking points' from on high, of the corrupted Democrat top, and accusing me of doing it, as you are....WRONG!!...and I have NO part affiliation, whatsoever, and haven't since BEFORE Carter ran against Ford! Even you, at one time went to the 'Green Party'...was that because you loved the Democrat or Republican parties...or because you had a momentary burst of clarity, and the 'Greens' seemed like a better alternative??
As a matter of fact, being away from these two gigantic ruses, has given me a rather objective view into the whole mess...and I don't like what I see....on is right about somethings, and wrong about other, and then they switch roles...ANYTHING to keep us, the American people, who they are supposed to be working FOR, blinded to their escapades and agendas. As the way it's turning out, whether its one party or the other, we are working for them...the dictators(and their agencies)....and I don't care what party they say they belong to!!!
...but then on the other hand, I pose no threat to either one of them..other than that I'm NOT buying their song and dance....(besides, I write better songs..but that's another story). One goes so far, then the other party picks up and keeps going..but one thing for sure, NOBODY is repealing the bullshit that the other managed to get through....therefore, they are working in the same direction(regardless of the rhetorical rap), and things don't seem to be getting much better, for US, their employers.....I'd like to see a few of them fired!....but then you can't even get the DOJ to stop breaking the law and lying about it, nor the USDA, FDA, and the EPA, to object to Monsanto's bullcrap, either....and nobody wants to ask 'Why?'.....sorta suspicious, don't ya' think?

Keep the shoe boxes dry, and in tune!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 05:26 PM

The theory, I guess, is don't try to solve problems, because the solution may create other (possibly worse) ones. When automobiles were introduced they were widely applauded as a solution to horse-drawn vehicles' pollution. DDT drastically reduced malaria incidence, but played hell with wildlife.
   ((No, I don't have an answer. Revolution doesn't seem to be one, either---look at Russia and China.))


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 06:13 PM

Dick, you done a post for thought provoking.
The next logical step, would be 'harmonious' and 'non-perishable' to all recipients and providers alike, and that would include the whole of the planet, and for it to regenerate, its own resources...and we, in turn, nurture it...and take the harvest, as needed.
To live like that, the first step one would have to embark upon, would be to look to one's own self, and have a healthy discussion with that 'other' part, who likes to compromise, by personal excuses...and use the energy that would save, and beginning to study, and become 'harmonious'..therefore, having less and less 'perishable' traits, either coming in or going out...and...see what else it brings. You might be one of the guys pointing the way.

Regardless, Have a Good Road.
(Keep in touch!)

Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 06:30 PM

Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley's 1818 novel, Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus, in addition to spawning a mess of monster movies (most of which were gawdawful and a couple of which were fairly good), was something of a warning about what a well-meaning scientist can produce when he has no clear idea of what the outcome of his experiment might be.

Forget the movies. Read the novel. One helluva good read, by the way.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM

Study the books, but also study the use of harmonics, and in practical use, in every aspect. In all applications of the word..they are all harmonious to each other!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 07:39 PM

Sorry, GfinS, but your above manifesto has TeaKK dripping off every word...

I don't defend the Democrats... I don't always agree with Obama...

You, on the other hand have agian doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on TeaKK noise in your manifesto... It's the same shit that you have been posting forever... It's all the exact same shit... Nothing new... Obama, Obama, Obama... Dems, Dems, Dems... Blah, Blah, Blah...

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to ignore your posts until you have made some attempt to look in the mirror and see just how eat up you are in repeating FOX... No thanks... It's all 100% USDA Choice FOX...

Get over FOX and jump start your brain... It isn't working at all... Another FOX manifesto won't change that no matter how long... We know just how much you hate Obama and the government... Had the Dems, BTW, wanted to play hate-the-government-investigate-everything scadalmania during Bush It would have made Obama look like a Boy Scout...

Do you realize what Darryl Issa said when the Repubs took the House in 2010??? Look it up... Very interesting shit and you are working for Darryl Issa and the TeaKK...

Square business...

Claim your brain back from the abyss... You are too smart to be so ignorant of just how brain-washed you have become...

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 08:46 PM

Of course you'd say that...you're repeating your party's mantra.
As I've repeated, so many fucking time, they are BOTH working in the wrong direction..ALL..what part of 'ALL' don't you understand?
'All' is all 'All' means, and that's all it means!
The whole shootin' match is corrupted....need we fill up another thread siting examples???..BOTH of them..TEA party included(as a side note).
ALL of them funded by questionable sources..yours too...ALL of them have shaky backgrounds and history. None of them are repealing bad shit...BYW, in the post you called my manifesto, I forgot to include NDAA...a TEA party invention??..Republican??...and who is the beneficiary of such legislation??

Oh, and my prior post, minus a couple of typos, was dead on!
You like 'agencies of regulation???? Where ARE or WERE the FDA?? EPA?? USDA??
Hey man, I'm on your side in this...but don't close your eyes to why this shit gets through!!! They can shut down mines...disallow foods and drugs and medicines....WHERE ARE THEY???...and moreover, WHY NOT?? ..and of course..Who's in charge here??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: GMOs... new thread. A must read.
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 13 - 09:14 PM

BS, GfinS... I ma a Green Party member who supports Obama..,

Guess better and...

...get an education...

EPA, USDA should be busting balls... Why can't they??? Because there are too many GfinSs out there spreading right wing bullshit...

B~


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