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BS: US Government shutdown

Don Firth 06 Oct 13 - 08:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 13 - 09:36 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 07 Oct 13 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Grishka 07 Oct 13 - 07:54 AM
Bobert 07 Oct 13 - 09:01 AM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM
Lighter 07 Oct 13 - 10:37 AM
Lighter 07 Oct 13 - 10:42 AM
sciencegeek 07 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 12:23 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM
Lighter 07 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 06:44 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 13 - 10:40 PM
Donuel 07 Oct 13 - 10:46 PM
akenaton 08 Oct 13 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM
Lighter 08 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 13 - 01:22 PM
Bobert 08 Oct 13 - 02:57 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 13 - 09:46 PM
Donuel 09 Oct 13 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 13 - 02:44 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM
Charmion 09 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM
Lighter 09 Oct 13 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM
Bobert 09 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 13 - 01:59 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Oct 13 - 03:30 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 13 - 12:24 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 13 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Oct 13 - 08:17 AM
Bobert 11 Oct 13 - 10:13 AM
sciencegeek 11 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 13 - 01:03 PM
Lighter 11 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM
Ron Davies 12 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM
Ron Davies 12 Oct 13 - 04:20 PM
Joe Offer 16 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 08:59 PM

Regulated Capitalism (post-FDR, pre-Reagan) worked pretty well. It needed a lot of fine tuning, but had Reagan not got away with rescinding all of FDR's regulations, we'd be in pretty good shape.

I know communists and hard-charging socialists don't agree with this, nevertheless, it did work well.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:36 PM

Could someone explain in simple and non polemic terms what it is about "Obamacare" that explains the degree of hostility? It sounds a remarkably modest innovation.

I don't mean why there might be people thinking it is far from adequate, and that something more like the British NHS might be better, rather than relying on private insurance, but why anyone other than a small fringe thinks it goes too far in that direction?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:14 AM

Obamacare is a remarkably modest innovation, however, insurance and pharmaceutical companies profit from the status quo. Follow the money. These religious fanatics and small government ideologues are just lackeys.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:54 AM

Pharmaceutical companies make big business in European countries of social health care. Of course, somebody has to pay for it, normally those who are somewhat better off but not "too big to fail", and who are thus likely to be opposed to it. This applies to most acts of government, so the "small government ideologues" are likely to be the actual key figures. They exist in all countries, but their notions of "small" usually translate to "smaller than it is here currently" - markedly different even within European social welfare societies. In fact social welfare is a major boost to economy, very welcome to big businesses who typically manage to dodge taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:01 AM

McG,

This entire mess has nothing to do with Obama"care" and has everything to do with Obama... Ya' see, he is the wrong color...

The Republicans have staked their future on a voting base that is a mix of racists, sexists, tin-foilers and government haters...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM

Could someone explain in simple and non polemic terms what it is about "Obamacare" that explains the degree of hostility?

1. There's no such thing as "Obamacare", which is a Tea Party invention; What we have is the is the Affordable Care Act.

2. The fictitious Tea-Party created "Obamacare"[sic], with its "death squads", "socialized medicine", Government-assigned doctors & all the rest of the mountain of bullshit is what has scared and angered people, not the reality.

Also see this thread 02 Oct 13 - 10:26 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:37 AM

Since everyone now has to have some insurance, including healthy young people who would otherwise ignore it till they wound up in the emergency room at taxpayers' expense, the insurance companies are indeed making money on Obamacare. That, plus hatred of higher taxes, is precisely why the "single-payer option" (i.e., complete federal funding through annual taxes) went nowhere.

What the TP really hates about O-care is that the feds are behind it (they hate and fear Washington), and they claim that it's "socialism" which is about the dirtiest word in American politics other than "liberalism," which the GOP has carefully crafted into a precise synonym (except that "liberalism" more overtly includes the hated and feared gay rights). "Socialism" in this case means that the richer you are, the more you'll be hit with "confiscatory taxes." The TP is revolted by this idea because some of them are rich, those that aren't think they will be or should be, and they think that poor people are poor because they're shiftless and immoral and don't deserve "taxpayer dollars" that just encourage them to have more "welfare kids."

Did anyone notice that the TP managed to cut back the Food Stamp program some weeks ago in the name of "economy"? Meanwhile inefficient waste and the notoriously bloated defense spending roar right ahead.

Many TP people believe that one day the UN will invade America on some trumped-up pretext (I am serious), and since we'll have to fight the Russians and Chinese and Cubans and Mexicans and probably everyone else at that point, we can never have enough weapons.

In the '60s they were a handful of kooks calling themselves the John Birch Society. Now there are millions of them, and they don't give damn about anyone else.

Former (conservative) GOP Congressman Vin Weber was on CNN this morning to say that the TP doesn't want to fund the Federal government *ever,* "because they actually hate government." They don't want a Federal government for anything but defense, law enforcement, and regulation of interstate commerce. Then they'll be "free" to be "decent and God-fearing."

The TP rank and file are ignorant, provincial, willful, fundamentalist, bigoted, arrogant, clannish idiots who are proud to be these things because it's "just common sense." They don't believe in majority rule, because "you do not compromise your principles."

They're an angry, uneducated minority, pandered to and egged on by slightly smarter opportunists in and out of office.

To keep sane, you can tell yourself, "Obama got more votes. Obama got more votes. Obama got more votes."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:42 AM

Greg meant "death panels," not "squads."

Not that it makes much difference.

I saw this TP protest sign: "Obama Lies, Granny Dies!"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: sciencegeek
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM

I bumped into some neighbors from down the valley this weekend & mentioned that I was looking forward to retiring next year. An immediate response from them was to imply that somehow Obama would make that difficult if not impossible. WTF???

My immediate rejoinder was to state that it was the Tea Party and Republicans who were the ones I worried about... especially since each time the Republicans replaced a Democratic administration - both local & national- was when my savings & investments were tanked.

When they realized that I wasn't swallowing their "party line", they then resorted to, "WEll, both parties are no good."

SO - if that's the case, why the immediate attack on Obama? And not, against the current gridlock, etc.

While nice enough folks, neither has even struck me as deep thinkers.. and this is just the target population for the current right wing agenda. Lead the sheep to slaughter, and by the time any of them figure it out it's too d*mn late.

Maybe the way to counter these selfish folks is to keep singing Divers & Lazarus, changing Dives to whatever idiot politician is making the most noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:23 PM

Panels, schmanels. ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM

Observations:

A statistic I saw recently says that the richest 400 people in the United States possess one-half of the country's total wealth.

Media tycoon Ted Turner had some 3 billion dollars. He built a sports stadium in Atlanta on his own dime, rather than badgering the tax payers to fund it (as is the case here in Seattle). And he was severely criticized for that. He was also severely criticized because he gave one billion of his three billion dollars to various charities. When he was told that he was "setting a bad example," he responded by saying, "Who in the hell needs that much money!??" And he was severely criticized for saying that!

In a recent survey, people were asked if they approved of "Obamacare." The majority said they were opposed to it. The same people were then asked if they approved of "The Affordable Care Act." The same people who opposed "Obamacare" said they were in favor of the "Affordable Care Act."

They are the same law. "Obamacare" is the name that a lot of people use when talking about the Affordable Care Act.

These are a couple of reasons why I believe that a large percentage of this country's population are severely in need of a good dope slap!

========

I use a power wheelchair to get around the neighborhood. Recently it needed new batteries.

Some years ago I had to have batteries replaced and was appalled at what my local durable medical goods store charged. So I contacted my nephew who worked in a battery store. He came over, looked at the batteries and checked the specs, then said that they were standard marine batteries, the kind you would use in your 36 foot Chris-Craft down at the marina. He told me that they were about $75 dollars apiece, not the $150 dollars apiece that the medical goods store wanted. They only real difference, he said, was the label. All specs were the same. So he got me a pair and installed them for me. Thank you, Tim!

Tim is now living in another city, so I figured that this time I would bite the bullet and pay what the durable medical goods store asked. They came over and installed the new batteries.

A couple of months later, I received a bill from them. My insurance company had paid some $300 dollars for the batteries, which was all they allowed. The durable medical goods company was billing me for an additional $370 dollars!! $520 dollars more than Tim told me they should cost!

That's typical of health care and medical charges in the United States and tends to explain why the health care industry lobbies to keep things just the way they are.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM

lighter.....I remember the John Birch Society, I think Pete Seeger wrote a song about them....."The Jack Ash Society"?

I remember them to be overtly racist, during the time when I was protesting in favour of civil rights for black people.

I don't think you can equate them with the Tea Party, who seem to be anti politics.....I'm sure I saw quite a number of black faces at their meetings.

Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM

the Tea Party, who seem to be anti politics

Righto- that's why there are so many TeaParty assholes in the Federal House and Senate, the State legislatures, and the State governorships.

Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right.

Righto - like Osama, Pol Pot, Hermann Goering ........


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM

> Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right

I was about to ask "Like Hitler? Pol Pot?" But that would have been unfair! So instead I'll ask, "Like Jeff Davis? Joe McCarthy? Don DeFreeze?"

Anyway, I don't think most of the TPs hate Obama for being black. (They liked Herman Cain.) In their eyes, being a Liberal is far, far worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:44 PM

Yeah, Lighter, but being a liberal uppity nigra is about as bad as it gets, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM

Great post, Lighter (10;37AM)... The only slight addition I would like to make to it is this... The incoming Tea Party House freshmen are the wealthiest in history with an average net worth of $1.4M...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:02 PM

And also they're the most ignorant & uneducted, Bobert. What we have in operation is the "Revenge Of The C Track".


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM

Yes, that is a given... These are all silver-spooners... No matter which one you investigate you find that 90% of the Tea Party House Republicans were born rich... Actually, some of them are examples of...

..."the easiest way to make a small fortune is start out with a larger one"...

Not too sure who said that but lotta of these creeps are people who inherited lots and are now down to there last couple mil and want someone, other than them, for their failures so they try to put the blame on poor and low income people???

Mental cases...

Explains a lot...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:40 PM

Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right.

Now that, aken , is somewhat daft, and I am sure that on reflection you will recognise that. It all depends on the system and on the questions. The Contras in Nicaragua a few years back were "questioning the system". So was Pinochet. So was Mosley.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:46 PM

The shut down was planned right down to the talking points and secret huge meeting of congressmen by the Koch Bros. back in December 2011.
Koch Ind. has given over 900 million to the cause of defeating, defunding and delaying ACA in the form of Congressional elections, commercials, Lobbying, think tanks, and funding various prosperity & freedom artificial turf groups.
NYT goes into great detail of the plan to shut down the government.
The tea party owned congressmen and Boehner are beholden to this corporate donor more than the people or the USA.

They planned in detail but stupidly forgot Obama was not running again, that the debt ceiling actually ran out in May and Oct. 17 is the catastrophic date in which creditors will actually be stiffed without any remedy except for Congress to vote to continue the US economy. The actual intent was to shut down Obama, the government was not the primary target save for Grover Norquist who says "I want to shrink gov down until we can drown it in the bathtub.


The Koch Bros. have succeeded in what Al Qaida did not succeed on 9-11 and that was to shut down the government and completely and accurately decimate the military. they say "bad Obama, look what you have done. They already have fooled some of the people.




*My last 3 hours on the NIH campus.*

With 32,000 employees at the Bethesda NIH location they call it a campus along with research labs hospital and a class 4 lab.

Not far from bld. 1 I watched employees, supervisors and workers prepare to leave work for an unknown time. Some carried their house plants some carried the emotional burden of having to look into the eyes of kids and parents who were scheduled for treatment or intake on Tue.

One woman in a taut business suit was clearly livid as she walked stiffly so fast that a tall man trying to assuage her could hardly keep up although his legs were a foot longer.

The South American cafeteria ladies in their purple smocks were being picked up by husbands who shared the worried look on their faces.

Fisher House was not going to have any new guests, Some of the five year research studies were going to be compromised and short of being scrapped were going to bear an asterisk in the study to explain the interruption.

Scientists who considered projects at the NIH have dropped by 22% and the best people have balked due to unreliability factors under the drone attacks by the anti science Britebarts and super Christians. Despite choosing a religious director the attacks continue on a weekly basis.

The budget cuts if 1.55 billion added to the new 22% cuts are taking their toll. The pan flu vaccine is incomplete and stopped.

This agency has reduced childhood malaria by 90%
This agency distributed the polio vaccine. This agency found the treatment for muscular dystrophy, not the march of dimes.
This agency is joined at the hip of CDC.

The attacks upon the NIH under Bush's OMB is being taken over by tea party know nothing congressmen. Even the NRA has shut down research into to bullet wounds if only by intimidation. The military has had to shield real research being done because of a NRA bill that prohibits facts garnered by research being used by gun control groups.


Nothing prohibits doctors and scientists from quitting and many will after this shut down. if YOU ARE EMPLOYEED BY THE nih YOU ARE FORBIDDEN TO MOON LIGHT OR TAKE A SECOND JOB. Some people will have to quit for financial reason if they get behind bills by over a month.

By noon on last tue. the last of the last workers were ordered to leave campus. those left to work may be security or folks who feed the animals and doctors tending to the previously scheduled patients.

Some sick people admittedly will be harmed beyond all hope
because NIH is CLOSED - in an emergency please call John Boehner !

but he is just following orders and can not order a vote until his billionaire owner says he can.





THE TEA party finally Knows what they want:

1 RESPECT
2 GRATITUDE
3 HONOR
4 MORE CORPORATE WELFARE.


WHEN ITS ALL OVER THE BITCHING ABOUT NIH WORKERS BEING PAID FOR NOTHING WILL NOT MENTION THE HARM WASTE AND DAMAGE THAT HAS BEEN DONE.


DELAY = DAMAGE + DESTRUCTION : THE TEA PARTY EQUATION OF CONTROL


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:38 AM

Yes I see that Mr McGrath, but obviously I am referring to the system which has brought us to the position we are in today.

There is a school of thought which says that during the process of demolition, you use all the tools at your disposal.

This system is incapable of evolution....its effects can only make things progressively worse
for the majority.

In the "good" times, a few crumbs fall from the table.....in "bad" times we suffer in silence or eat dust!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

Oh MY!!......Oh my, my, my!!

You're arguing over details, that you were given to argue about, and can't see the why's and what-fore's, of the 'bargaining chips'..that, in reality, are only 'stage props' in the theater!!!

T-H-I-N-N-K L-O-N-G-E-R!!!!

(that's the 'illusion' of partisan politics, that blinds your eyes!)

Come on, give it a shot!
What's this 'con game' REALLY about??

(Hint: I've already told you.)

Until You Guess Again,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

Elected by the voters:

http://news.yahoo.com/arizona-de-fuhrer-barton-obama-134942788.html


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:22 PM

Too cute by half Mr. Guess Again.

This I believe and know:
The richest 1% fund political campaigns at rates 1000 times higher than any grass or artificial turf roots organization . For example Mr. Gingrich had one single donor. Our richest Casino owner donated more to Romney than any single super PAC.

The gilded age of megalomaniac multi billionaire fiends that James Bond tried to contend with, is upon us all.


Perhaps some of you woke up in the eye of the storm and are about to face a terrifying wind. No matter who you are, you will have to cling tightly to the nearest object no matter how precarious just to hold on a little longer.
The purist who only talks but never does anything and the tea party extremist might both grab ahold of the same branch in hopes they won't be swept away.
You the kind hearted liberal have much in common with the tea partier who is paid by Koch in the sense you both had a lot more opinions before you learned the facts.

The fact is, the essence of Democracy is the craven enemy of the dying Republican Party. In the death throes of a huge organization with crazy fringes and confederate roots the Republicans are more dangerous as they grow more desperate. To win anything they have to trick, distort and deny voting access to the majority. THe heart of the Republic the super wealthy do not want Democracy to interfere with their plans.

Democracy is a good plan and has its Achilles heel just as Capitalism has its faults.

You who supports Democracy are recognized as good. If you are, or have become an unwitting enemy of Democracy you need to a take a good hard look at yourself.

You who thinks you are a genius for seeing people who have tried to cling to Koch money and are abject fools for doing that, are heartless A holes. All that separates "you" from "them" are circumstances. Philosophy be damned when you are fighting to keep a roof above your head and food in your stomach.

After all is yelled and done, you were once like a tea party Ayn Rand fanatic and had hundreds of opinions...until you learned the facts.

In this preamble to Civil War II don't you think it is about time you not revile and not scavenge off your fellow American, no matter how many facts they have yet to understand? Knowing better is not smarter, its just knowing by opportunity and chance.

The "mistaken" will not be taught by arrogance. If that's all you leave them they will have to crash and burn their family to death because they will not trust the Dead End sign you waved in their faces with anger in your face.

I trust we will make it through these times of unmoving incivility wars.
Begin with your own civility, be you a tea party joiner or progressive occupier.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:57 PM

What exactly does Johnny Bonehead want to negotiate??? Killing off the Affordable Care Act???

That ain't going to happen and Johnny knows it so...

...what else is on his mind???

I mean, he gets up in front of dozens of microphones every day so if there is something else why doesn't he just spit it out...

No, Donuel's post is 100% on the money... The Koch brothers ordered their minions to a meeting in 2011 and told them that he wanted the government to be shut down...

Period...

End of story...

Someone needs to take the Koch brothers to the woodshed and give them each a good whuppin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM

Thank you Bobert and thank you Don Firth.

I have a tendency to state the truth and then go too far like about the mistake invading Iraq or giving away all our money to the banks who lost their shirts/tarps or that Obama would prove to be more of a right centrist than a liberal, you know, going out on a limb until people don't believe a word.

If you don't get what I'm talking about just think of a rich guy fixing a horse race and betting on the sure thing like the horse he poisoned loses.

Trying not to sound paranoid I stated earlier that I have an overactive imagination and was willing to hedge my bets that this whole shutdown has the undercurrent of being a financial coup by billionaires who will risk the people of the US against enormous insurance bet profits off of CDS treasury bonds (bets that the gov will default on its credit.

I am now "nearly" certain this is a real possibility.



1 The Credit default swaps on US Treasury notes are actually tripling from day to day.

2 The gov shut down is no longer about the ACA. The shut down is no longer about the debt (Dems gave the GOP Paul Ryan level budget) The shut down and default are now spoken of in the same breath.

3 The Gov shut down is no longer about any policy in particular except that they say they want something like respect. Why are Dems confused that the repubs don't know what they want? I bet they want big $ even if it sells out the USA.

4 What better time to have a financial coup than when the Justice Dept and the SEC is closed.

HerE it is: I believe the Koch Bros and their friends are willing to bet 20 billion dollars OR MORE that the politicians they have paid for in the house (especially a career bribe taker like Boehner) to shut down the government and let the debt ceiling "technically" fail.

Those who purchased credit default swaps on the US treasury bonds that will have then defaulted, will get 5 to 10 times their investment back.

Bet 10 billion and get 100 billion. Yes Americans will get hurt but remember you are on the world investment stage and you will look like an Oracle for foreseeing the default so far in advance.

Have the big boys like the Koch bros. invested in these CDS on the treasury of the US early and big? I don't know
It is a financial secret like Hedge funds but what is known is that SOMEBODY HAS ! Who exactly I can not know but look for yourself and see what you want to see.
Will you see deliberate investments via CDS or a nervous market selling bonds or nervous nellies buying bonds at larger interest rates from the 1 year to the 30 year note. Watch how when anyone talks about the credit swaps on T bills they are interrupted or shut up quickly. Do moderators wish to avoid a panic? OR is this inside game just sitting there in plain sight, not to be talked about?


Even if the full default of the US does not happen the mega big investors will keep their CDS until it finally does and make billions and trillions collectively.

I first mentioned that this theory is like a Tom Clancy novel - I'm not a fan anyway but he died the day after the post. I will refrain from advising any antidote to the default and profit scheme. Who in their right mind would sell dollars for pesos? Characters like drug lords might, at least in the James Bond action movie version.

Technically I could still be wrong about the corrupt tea partier Congressmen that Koch has paid from the git go, but billionaires will still make huge windfalls on a default, if it happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:46 PM

This shut down was engineered in detail 2 years ago by the Koch Bros. according to the NYT.

The media has said that the overarching question is who is to blame, A or B.
Neither is it the important question or is it really A or B.

The important question is why the Koch Bros decided to take this direction.

I would ask you to educate yourself with 'the Koch Bros exposed' or other independent historically accurate source.

I will give a rough outline about who they are and where they came from. A very unique place indeed.

Their father made his fortune in the 1930's Soviet Union under a direct contract with Joseph Stalin to develop vast oil fields and refineries for Stalin's war efforts.

Upon returning to the US Koch created his own oil refinery corporation and soon had over 200 million dollars (a lot for 1949) seed money for serious capitalization. Father Koch became the largest donor to the John Birch Society. He was a kingpin in the red baiting and the communist scare campaign partly to throw the scent off his early days and part to accuse American blacks as the core of the Communist party with the help of Jews to take over America. As a rich anti communist he associated with J Edgar Hoover and gave Hoover a lot of money and a lot of fear of Martin Luther Kings and other civil rights "communists".

His son's Charles and David grew up in a unique household where segregation was the American way and wealth was entitled to real Americans like their Dad. Dad would say the only thing that makes someone more important than you is what they know that you don't, if you buy what they know you are more powerful than them. The Koch Bros. have taken that lesson to heart and have always relied upon at least 4 and sometimes 5 Think Tanks to retain their fortune and find new ways of increasing it into the future by molding the America that they want as the goose that will give them golden eggs forever.

each of them personally make over20 million dollars a day. Their corporations total well over 100 Billion dollars a year. After saving and investing this money over 45 years their fortune can rent to buy America as a whole and are on the verge with their friends on the Supreme Court like Scalia to stop renting and own America outright with the NEW citizens United which is like the first one but on steroids.

David Koch has been known to have a conscience but Charles is a social psychopath and more dedicated than David. Charles character is best measured by his behavior on a crashed airliner. He was in first class and was about to depart the front exit amid smoke when he pulled the curtain and say people on fire and others struggling to free the wing and rear exits that were jammed. He then replaced the curtain and exited in silence without telling anyone else that an exit was clear up front. He later said he was afraid that other people could have stampeded him if he had told anyone else.


If you have ever watched an hour of FOX cable news 40 minutes out of 60 is dedicated to agenda's generated by the Koch think tanks and given the go ahead to be repeated in the fox echo chamber.
Here are some of the issue the Koch think tanks have spent months on FOX being drilled into the national audience;
social security is bankrupt!!
increase the age to 70 for SS benefits
Opt out of Obama care
resegregate North Carolina Schools (stop forced bussing)
Give social Security to Wall Street to Invest.
Obama is not an American
Have governors ban state public unions
Think tank climate change deniers
Suppression of the vote for blacks and the poor.
Nearly 9 out of 10 political conservative fights waged in this country originate in the Koch Bros think tanks.
I can tell you the names of each tank and the one they were thinking of owning outright but if you are curious you will find them.

Their wish list is to have no taxes, no regulations and social engineering along the lines of 1950 America.

Who the Kochs own lock stock and barrel is becoming more important than what they own.
They currently own 14 Republican Governors, Liz Cheney candidate, Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan, Rand Paul, Boehner, 40 freshman tea party congress people and Senator Cruz to name but a few. The amount of money they got from the Kochs is always less than 100 grand but what they really get in the form of trust funds that are under Koch control is far greater. They own Clarence Thomas and Scalia while Roberts is a close friend but a wild card conservative strategist of his own. He is about to decide if Citizens United should go farther so that owning congressmen and senators will be free of how much $ may be given to them.

They created the tea party with Prosperity for growth
Freedom works under Army and half a dozen other dispensaries of money to hedge their bets for a base that was leaving the GOP.
Spending over 10 billion dollars out of their 3 trillion dollar fortune is like chump change. So far the returns have been working better than ever.

That the Kochs haven't told the GOP or tea party exactly what they want in exchange to reopen the government and pay the debt ceiling (it changes day by day) is very curious indeed but that would be speculation that I put in another post.

Their unique history and father along with 4 trillion that can buy anything their think tanks think up like funding universities and colleges only by signing a contract that professors who are not in accord with Koch philosophies and policies will jeopardize the funds promised to the university. By controlling faculty they own over 100 universities.



I hope you are beginning to see that the shutdown is really a show down between President Obama and the Koch Bros. Obama offends every sense the Koch Bros. feel. They really hate the idea that a black is in the white house. Obama cost them the presidency of Mitt Romney. The Kochs gave enormous amounts of money to Mitt second only to Adelman the casino owner.

Obama is in a sense going up against the John Birch Society KKK in a literal way. If you listened close to Obama today you heard him refer to "extreme elements of the Republican party" and to have them reconsider their dire actions. He was referring to the Kochs since he had already addressed the House republican congressmen in the previous paragraph.

Could someone link the NYT article on the Koch Bros. and the shut down?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:43 AM

I ran the numbers and the plot to make money on US bonds after a default is bogus. Inflation alone would wipe out existing fortunes by a third to three quarters. Not even a multi billionaire could keep holdings in an inflation proof environment.
The mystery continues. Why would a default be sought by anyone other than an enemy of the USA? Confiscation like in Cyprus and Greece couldn't happen here.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:44 AM

Donuel: "That the Kochs haven't told the GOP or tea party exactly what they want in exchange to reopen the government and pay the debt ceiling (it changes day by day) is very curious indeed but that would be speculation that I put in another post."

Here, I'll spare you the trouble......What they want, and the goal for utilizing the 'bargaining chips', long ago anticipated and planned for, that Obama will go for, as soon as he can pull it off with forced 'support' from the wannabe so-called liberals, is none other than the Keystone Pipeline...and without much 'brain straining', you can see that the present climate in the mid east, Saudi Arabia being put in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation with its neighbors, our 'debt', and the 'outcry' for us to 'do something', the time may be at hand...with only minimal opposition....and even 'so-called' limp-wristed, 'liberals' will be rationalizing it away, as Obama's 'second greatest achievement'.... (rolls eyes)....to 'save the economy'!!!??

...and the Bushes and Rockefellers, among a FEW others, will be happy as well!.....and 'so-called liberals' will be proud!!

Now that wasn't too hard, was it?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM

I note with some amusement that Barton can't even spell "Der Fuhrer" (and I omit the umlaut through laziness not ignorance)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM

You know what blows my mind?

The sheer contempt so many Americans evidently feel for their own government.

That is *so* weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 09:14 AM

> The sheer contempt so many Americans evidently feel for their own government.

Always a factor (remember the Civil War?), but the Modern Age of polarization and all-round anti-federalism can almost be pinpointed to 1968-1975.

At least that's how I remember it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

Charmion: "The sheer contempt so many Americans evidently feel for their own government."

Yes, besides it being a device, for gaining control, and hiding the source of it, things have been done by 'Our Government' that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the 'will of the people'....instead, we are being told as what we HAVE to accept, by BOTH parties, to accommodate the will of the financial moguls who are actually in control....and BTW, the U.K. is not only exempt from it, they are active participants!! The guys 'behind the scenes'(or curtain, if you like), have everybody mistakenly blaming the 'other party', when in fact, the exert control over BOTH of them!..It's only the daft, slow learners, who draw their attention from those party's participation, who are perpetuating the 'divisions' for their own personal aggrandizement!!
There's a few of them on here....but in reality, they are antiques!

...........

In regards to my last post, about the Saudis and the pipeline, if Iran wasn't so pre-occupied with destroying Israel, they'd be breathing down the Saudi's back..who just so happen to 'own' a massive amount of our debt....till we blow them off.....diplomatically, of course, and let them twist in the wind...to fend for themselves...So they are damned if they do help us, with oil, and buying our notes, and damned if they don't capitulate to the Muslim uprisings....the rest of the 'debt' thing, is ONLY because of the Banksters, and paying them off the 'interest'... in regards to the 'debt' ceiling.
All this, by the way, is contrived bullshit....but it IS serving its purpose...but not for what a lot of you may think.....Ah, alas, bullshit political partisan talking points...no wonder no one is paying much attention to the music, anymore...you ain't saying anything!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM

Lets' do a little review here...

In 2011 when the TeaPubs threatened to allow the US to default they got $1.2T in cuts to social programs outta Obama and gave up...

...not one dime in revenues...

Then when the Teapubs a year later threatened to not fund the government budget they forced Obama into the sequestration and agreed that they would negotiate in the "Super Committee" and then refused to negotiate forcing another $2T more in cuts and...

...not one dime in revenues...

There's an old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me..."

We're on round three and there is nothing left for Obama to give up in cuts... The rate of increase in federal spending is lower now than anytime since WW II...

Fce it, the TeaPubs don't negotiate... They demand...

Fuck 'um... They are the ***takers***... No more...

BTW, the average net worth of a House TeaPub is $1.4M... These are rich people... So much for this salt-of-the-earth grassroots persona that the TeaPubs are pushing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:59 AM

Bobert, You're beating a dead horse. You keep trying to draw people into the division game, and therefore taking their eyes off the 'why's' and 'what for'.....we can all name some group of corrupt 'financiers' for ALL the political agendas, on all sides...left, right and middle..and they all do it for pretty much the same reason. Your obsession with the 'Tea Pubs' and KKK'ers and anything even remotely to the center, of your radical left position, does NOT make them any less corrupt than those funding YOUR position!...Get over it, and do something constructive, besides playing the blame game 'ad nauseum'!..must we subscribe to a new group of people to hate???..or can't we spread anything better to believe in????..or for that fact, have qualities that rise above the hate mongering, that would set us apart, and maybe a little higher???? ...or must we be delegated to the same 'hate energy' of 'the other side'...making us just the same assholes, as you perceive them to be???????????
It's like arguing over whose vomit is better!!!!
Wise up!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:30 AM

Don't be silly Fugitive From Sanity. Bobert, as usual, is bang on the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM

There is one certainty, and GfS understands it, if we want to see social and economic change in the UK and the US, it can never be achieved by one section over another.
We must have unity against the corporates, and as there are few socialists left anywhere, we on the "left are going to have to compromise more than most.
We have to understand that nowadays we are a weak political minority, due to the unbelievably stupid social changes that we have legislated for, the illegal, immoral wars we have supported and our acceptance of the biggest robbery of all time, the financial crash.
We have been outflanked by the string pullers aided by the media, and have little credibility left.
There is no way that any of us are about to see a decent realistic society, but we should have the intelligence to make a start on bringing one about.

Divisiveness is the worst action. We must start to see that the ordinary folk are just that..."ordinary folk" who have absorbed a different sort of propaganda.

We all want to see a BETTER world.

The real enemy is FINANCE and its front line troops in the Media.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 12:24 PM

Coming from you, that's not much of an endorsement!

..and Bobert is NOT 'on the money'..he is just spewing more party politics.
The convergence of the debt ceiling, and the government shut down was known, and strategies planned for LONG ago...with objectives that gives the appearance that the 'solution' will be one that benefits will be the 'only logical answer'..but in reality, it's just a bunch of contrived nonsense, leveraging the banksters, and made palatable, by their owned, politicians, and the parties, they pretend to represent!
Wake up, and get a life!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:16 PM

That's funny, GfinS... I wrote the same thing at the WaPo and got 77 likes... 10 likes is a lot... 20 is like crazy a lot... 77??? Off the charts... Apparently, people who do keep up with news, understand exactly what I am saying...

Your proclamations are nothing but flagellation and noise...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Well, it all goes to show, that there are a lot of ill informed idiots out there! That's what they get for believing the bankster/corporate owned "News Media"!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:17 AM

My God! I agree with Richard on a political point, the end of life as we know it!

Nonetheless, he is absolutly correct.

Bobert has it spot on, and you should stick to the music.

No, seriously, don't give up the day job. Politically you are a non starter!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 10:13 AM

Well, well, well...

Looks as if yesterdays poll numbers have scared Johnny Bonehead and his boys to make a deal... Expect one by the end of the day...

The next 6 weeks will be interesting as the TeaPubs try to extort something - anything - so as to save face for their boneheaded move...

I hope that we revisit the reality that Obama and the Dems have given over $3T in cuts (over 10 years) already and that the stingy TeaPubs have given only $600B (over 10 years) in revenue... I hope that BIG MEDIA doesn't allow itself to be bullied yet again by FOX unNews and allows some daylight on the what really is happening here...

"We want our country back" is a slogan... Not a policy position...

When it comes down to it, the Dems have nothing else to give in terms of spending cuts... Every federal agency is all ready running on fumes... This idea that we could just shut down the EPA is the dumbest thing in the world... We will end up poisoning our country with toxic waste being dumped into storm sewers if we allow the polluters to do what they want... These people have no consciences and would do that in a heartbeat...

Seems that Tea (Tin Foil) Nation is all about this Ayn Rand model... We can't go there... It would be like the United States of Somalia... That is no exaggeration... Not fear peddling or anything like that... It is reality... A lawless nation ain't the answer...

BTW, remember back three or four years ago and the Repubs and the Chamber of Commerce were weeping about all these mean, spiteful regulations that Obama was imposing on them??? So John Daley, then Obama's Chief-of-Staff, invited the Chamber to a meeting and told them to bring with them the regs they didn't like... Remember the outcome??? The Chamber didn't show and after that you didn't hear a peep out of them about mean and spiteful regs...

Face it, the Kochs, the Chamber and the TeaPubs have been running on pure mythology and propaganda... Once it is striped away there is nothing... No ideas... No proposals... No nothing... All brought to you by the party of "No"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM

LOL...

I recently found a copy of I Hate Republicans at the local thrift store... same points being made... but under the George W. administration.

shouldn't laugh, though... it's scary how far those folks will go to destroy our democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:03 PM

A consensus does not make a fact!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM

Catch the video of Ted Cruz at the Value Voters Summit this morning.

He got huge applause when he said that Obama is targeting for destruction "every single one of our Bill of Rights."

When several hecklers called for immigration reform, he sneered condescendingly that "It look's like Obama's paid political operatives are out in force" - a good thing, because if "Obama's whole staff" is in the house trying to stop Ted Cruz, they "can't be in Washington working their mischief on the American people." Huge applause.

An "all-powerful and benevolent God" is giving the TP the "strength to stand *strong* in the House or Representatives" to keep Obamacare from killing jobs, forcing people into poverty, and stripping them of health insurance.

You think I'm making this up? I wish.

Just the tip of the iceberg. The crowd, mainly fundamentalists, went crazy.

I never thought Id see the day when Paul Ryan was coming across as a voice of reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

Ted Cruz is a mental case... He thinks the entire thing is about him... Never met a mirror he didn't fall instantly in love with... Face it, he is a creep person...

Actually, on Obamacare, it's imperfect... The only thing I like about it is that it is better than nothing and will lead to single payer in about 10 years... Maybe less... Americans can't stay stupid forever... When they find that they can't get a decent job because our competitors are whupping our butts because they are spending 7-8% of their GNP's on health care and getting better care then we'll move off Base Stupid...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

I never thought Id see the day when Paul Ryan was coming across as a voice of reason.

And you haven't yet. He's as big a lunatic asshole as Cruz, anmd somewhat more dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM

Observations:

Sensible Republican commentators (and sorry, they do exist) realize this is precisely the wrong way to get rid of "Obamacare".    They note the obvious:    that the GOP must win the next election, and probably the Senate too, to do it .

The GOP, in theory dominated by the Tea Party and therefore against the alleged terrible current abuse of government to oppress the helpless citizenry, is more than willing to fund quite a few areas of government, starting with the military and national parks but there's a long list more.    So it's not government they are against but only the parts they don't like--and they will more than glad to tell us which parts.    So to give in to this is to have not majority rule but rule by a mindless minority.

This one is my favorite:   They claim that one of the main goals is to save taxpayers' money.    Yet the recent House vote on reimbursing federal employees now not being paid was--guess what--unanimous.

So where are those brave frugal souls who want to save the taxpayers' money?    Not one actually had the guts to put his or her name on the line opposing reimbursement.   The most courage they could muster is to abstain.



Face it, the votes of federal employees--and those who realize that government is not, per se, evil--outweigh by a huge margin the views of any allegedly principled voter who is passionate to see government shrunk dramatically, even at the expense of benefits that voter receives from government.

And GOP politicians know where the votes in the general election are--and after having postured for the benefit of the Know-Nothing wing of the party, with its true believers who exert outsized influence in primary season--are more than willing to show us they know where the votes really are. The only question is how long they think they have to posture to cut off a primary challenge from the Right.

But, as Bobert and some others have already noted, shutting down the government, for any reason, is just not a winning election issue. They have learned nothing from 1995.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 04:20 PM

"win the next presidential election"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM

Looks like the Senate has forged a compromise that didn't cost anyone very much.

    Deal reached to avoid default and open government
    By ALAN FRAM and DONNA CASSATA
    The Associated Press
    Published: Tuesday, Oct. 15, 2013 - 11:44 pm
    Last Modified: Wednesday, Oct. 16, 2013 - 12:16 pm
    WASHINGTON -- Senate leaders announced last-minute agreement Wednesday to avert a threatened Treasury default and reopen the government after a partial, 16-day shutdown. Congress raced to pass the measure by day's end.

    The Dow Jones industrial average soared on the news that the threat of default was fading, flirting with a 200-point gain in morning trading.

    "This is a time for reconciliation," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of the agreement he had forged with the GOP leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

    It was a jubilant moment in the chamber, which on Tuesday was forced to sit back and watch as the effort by House GOP leaders for a bill collapsed in disarray.

    McConnell said that with the Senate accord, Republicans had sealed a deal to have spending in one area of the budget decline for two years in a row, adding, "we're not going back."

    One prominent tea party lawmaker, Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, said he would oppose the plan, but not seek to delay its passage.

    That was a key concession that signaled a strong possibility that both houses could act by day's end. That, in turn, would allow President Barack Obama to sign the bill into law ahead of the Thursday deadline that Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew had set for action to raise the $16.7 trillion debt limit.

    While the deal could meet resistance from conservatives in the Republican-controlled House, the Democratic Leader, Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California, supports the plan and says her rank and file is expected to vote for it in overwhelming numbers. That raised the possibility that more Democrats than Republicans would back it, potentially causing additional problems for House Speaker John Boehner as he struggles to manage his tea party-heavy majority.

    After abandoning their own plan on Tuesday, House members quietly awaited Senate action, resigned to the likelihood that they would have to back the deal or plunge the nation into default. The only silver lining was the promise that it would be their last vote for the week after three straight weekends in Washington.

    Officials said the proposal called for the Treasury to have authority to continue borrowing through Feb. 7, and the government would reopen through Jan. 15.

    The White House welcomed the compromise and spokesman Jay Carney said the president looked forward to signing it into law.

    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/10/15/5825237/senators-seek-budget-deal-house.html#storylink=cpy


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