Eliza Carthy MBE

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:48 PM

So, three in the familiy now. I hope they remember who's is who's.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:02 PM

old trot certainly - though far from grumpy. just have no time for the monarchy - we are citizens not subjects- and the empire is an offensive idea that's just not right. i would have thought those guys would be a bit suspicious of the 'honour'

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:37 PM

When Martin Carthy accepted his MBE he made it clear that he was accepting it on behalf of all the traditional singers who have never been similarly recognised. He also said he felt it was an acknowledgement for traditional music, rather than of him as an individual. No doubt Norma and Eliza would express similar sentiments.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM

I imagine the Carthy family see accepting their awards as being for the greater good of folk music. as Dick Gaughan pointed out - the first victims of the British Empire were in fact the English people.
their folk culture and stories were supressed and written out of history.

The Carthys and Watersons have made a very sincere lifelong effort to retrieve the folksongs that would have otherwise been disregarded and discarded by the establishment. I don't think you should pick them over the semantics of the award.

it is a great achievement.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 07:55 PM

their careers are a great achievement - who cares whether the queen or the 'empire' feel they ought to acknowledge it? we do.....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 08:33 PM

"...make Martin the Earl of Folksville..." "The Earl of Scarborough Fair...." Why make something up, when there are already songs in the database called "Earl of Aboyne," "Earl of Westmoreland," "The Earl of Errol," and "The Earl of Totnes"? Perhaps one of those titles is currently vacant, and could usefully be conferred upon MC.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM

I thought Martin was The Crown Prince of Folk anyway.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:16 AM

We are subjects of a constitutional monarchy.

Rejoice!

Once again, congratulations to Eliza. Boo to those churlish idiots who mistake tradition for a political framework. You may not like monarchy, and I think it odd at times, but his strange "I thought she wouldn't have accepted" crap is typical bollocks, trying to shame good people by comparing to your own dismal standards.

Celebrating good people is worthwhile. This is how we have traditionally done it here.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM

bit unfair musket - after all some rather beastly things were done in the name of the British Empire. I can see the blokes point. not saying I agree - I think the honour was accepted with the best intentions.

I admit, I felt some reservations when you got the iron cross with oakleaves. Still tea at the eagles nest....hard to turn down!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM

No problem with not liking the honours system, there's plenty not to like and plenty to reform still, or even abolish. For instance, I am uncomfortable with perpetuating anything to do with the empire, and would change the name, although not to the point of throwing a nice thought back in the face of those who think you deserve it.

No. My moan is about those who push their values on others and judge them.

Oh, and cucumber sandwiches on the lawn. Don't get me started.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 08:55 AM

Does anyone agree with me about the positive folkloric and nostalgic associations of the term British Empire as a historical entity which should be remembered [for its virtues as well as its vices -- anybody out there genuinely believe sub-Saharan Africa a nicer place to be now than it was 80 years ago?], as I urged in my post a few back - 05.55 pm?

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

well actually Mike - I think the Africans are all quite pleased that we've buggered off - at long last. put it this way -they haven't asked us back. neither have the Indians. or Australia.

I think theres only Gibraltar and the Falklands that quite liked us.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM

'my moan is about those who push their values on others and judge them'
fair enough - does that include judging people as 'churlish idiots' if they have different values to your own? i in no way want to criticise eliza etc - on the contrary- just saying that i am a bit disappointed. i feel we are endorsing the establishment (and the monarch who i am quite confident has never been to a folk gig or heard of the carthys) by going along with this patronage and they (unlike EC) do not deserve our approval.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:24 AM

.. without being churlish... etc.. etc.. etc

Maybe it's about time someone asked the reasonable question..

"what exactly has she done [above and beyond any other professional 'folk' performer in her relatively young age group]
to deserve such special meritus recognition ???"

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:27 AM

I don't approve of the royal family. Neither do I disapprove. They are there, I am here. They were once nice to me and gave me a gong, I am nice to them and never stick a stamp on an envelope upside down.

They didn't buy the gong, I don't buy stamps, (Mrs Musket buys them.)

It isn't a matter of having different views, it's being disappointed that someone has different values to you. Disappointed means judging them.

That disappoints me.




And unless the Queen personally glasses the Syrian President in the pub and shouts "outside now!" To the Chinese President, I doubt I will be returning mine in order to complain about Imperialist aggression....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 10:52 AM

Well, Al: the oppressive governments currently in control thruout most of Africa aren't going to invite us back, are they? And those they oppress haven't the power or the authority: even supposing they have any memory of how much better it used to be there. I have heard from several Sierra Leonean intellectuals in their universities [I worked in one for a short time] that they are not happy with the way things are and can see little prospect of improvement -- even tho they have stopped hacking one another's hands off for the nonce, as they were doing during the civil war which happened a bit after Valerie & I left there. I think your reply was a bit naif, to be honest; and not quite an answer to the question I asked, if you look back. All I asked was whether anyone thought things were better around there than they were 80 years ago; which you haven't really addressed at all. I am of course aware of the futility of trying to turn clocks back; but that doesn't preclude some from wishing wistfully that it might just be possible sometimes.

But we have drifted rather far from Eliza; so I leave this topic now -- just reiterating my pleasure in her success; and wondering what achmel thinks she & her parents should have done: said something like "Love to have an honour, thank you Ma'am; but you'll have to change its name just for little me or I couldn't possibly accept"? Away you!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 14 - 12:50 PM

all I can tell you is the kids I taught with a background, from the Indian sub continent, they had been brought up very deeply resentful of british rule by their parents.

I imagine the Africans feel the same.

theres loads of people think England was a better place eighty years ago. perhaps in some ways it was - but there was a lot of collateral damage with the values of those times. damage we can't count - because it occurred to no one to count the lives ruined and marginalised.

like in Ireland we will continue to get blamed for these countries misfortunes - they fuck you up, your mum and dad. I am glad we're concentrating a bit more on our own back garden these days. my grandfather served in the Lancashire hussars in the boer war. among his posessions was a rhino whip to prevent coloured people from using the pavements.
mentally I wear seven league boots to step away from what it must have been like.so wear your gongs with pride - they show you've done good things.
but keep in mind that rhino whip....lest we forget.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM

- I think the Africans are all quite pleased that we've buggered off - at long last. put it this way -they haven't asked us back.

One of Nelson Mandela's first acts as President was to bring South Africa back into the British Commonwealth. Pakistan has left and returned and Mozambique has joined even though it was never part of the Empire. As the Commonwealth is the direct descendent of the British Empire, surely this shows that not everybody hates us for our colonial past.

My objection to the honours system is not with the name but with the system itself. Successful Olympic athletes get gold medals as their prize. They don't need titles or letters after their name as well. High profile celebrities get paid obscene amounts of money without the need to be called Sir or Dame. For every token school caretaker, there are thousands more giving the same service without recognition. I know several people who have been awarded an MBE for voluntary work within the community. By coincidence, they were all civil servants or worked in local government.

DC

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:37 AM

Having been on both sides of this Doug, (when I held public office, I had opportunity to nominate in certain categories,) I would agree that there seemed to be more success when the volunteer was also connected with public sector in some way unrelated, but I still hold onto the "coincidence" idea in principle. Every caretaker with a gong indicates the work of caretakers, not just the caretaker. OBE always stood for Other Bugger's Efforts. (CBE and MBE tend to be more personal achievement whereas OBE indicates the "type of service that gets recognition.")

The sports, music, acting and otherwise celebrity awards do have their place. For "real" people to be given something that is a big deal for the famous does, in my experience, add to it. One lady who got one as a volunteer helper in a care home locally, when I asked her what her day was like, spent the next ten mins listing the famous people she was waiting with. May seem facile to some, but celebrity works. We wouldn't have celebrity without it.

Al. I'll check to see who Mandella left his rhino whip to in his will. Also, you can read the statistics of country and ethnicity of recipients. They make interesting reading for those who dismiss the honours system as repressing British aggression.

Lloyd George set up the universal pension on the proceeds of British aggression. Beveridge's welfare state proposals had as the largest risk to success in his introduction, the dismantling of the Empire.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 07:55 AM

".. without being churlish... etc.. etc.. etc

Maybe it's about time someone asked the reasonable question..

"what exactly has she done [above and beyond any other professional 'folk' performer in her relatively young age group]
to deserve such special meritus recognition ???"



Some of Eliza's career highlights (from her biography):

Media

BBC Radio 2: Eliza Carthy's Anglicana (four-part series on the history of English folk music)

ITV: Heaven and Earth (hour long documentary)

Channel 5: My Music (hour-long documentary)

BBC Radio 2: The Sony Award-winning Mark Radcliffe Show (regular co-presenter)

BBC 2: Later…With Jools Holland (multiple appearances)        

BBC Television: In Search of English Folk Song (directed by Ken Russell)        

NBC's Late Night with Conan O'Brien (music guest)

BBC 4's Folk Britannia Season (featured artist)


Patronage

Current Associate Artist at The Sage, Gateshead, following on from Kathryn Tickell

English Folk Dance and Song Society – Vice President

Whitby Folk Week – Patron

Cheltenham Folk Festival – Patron

Resonance FM - Ambassador


Awards and Nominations

BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards (8, including Best Album, Best Traditional Track and Folk Singer of the Year)

Mercury Prize nominations (2, for Red Rice and Anglicana)

Paul Hamlyn Award for Artists


Producing Credits

9 acclaimed solo albums, plus Gift, her collaboration with Norma Waterson, for which she also provided arrangements and most of the instrumentation.


Notable Collaborations and Guest Appearances

Billy Bragg & Wilco, Mermaid Avenue vols I and II (winners of 2 Grammy Awards)

Welcome Songs, a collaboration with Robert Hollingworth and community choirs for the London 2012 Cultural Olympiad

Hal Willner's Rogues Gallery project, alongside Brian Ferry, Sting, Johnny Depp, the McGarrigle family, Richard & Teddy Thompson and Tim Robbins

Patrick Wolf's critically-acclaimed album The Bachelor

The Imagined Village (a World music and English trad adventure, featuring members of The Bays, Transglobal Underground and AfroCelt Sound System)

4 Meltdown Festivals at the Southbank (curated by Nick Cave, Patti Smith, Hal Willner and Richard Thompson)

Work with Paul Weller, Jools Holland, jazz legend Bill Frisell, seminal Scots Latin/trad fusion band Salsa Celtica, Finnish Lord of the Rings composers Vartinna, Joan Baez, Cerys Matthews, 90s dance pioneers Red Snapper and many more.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Well, that looks like a varied and enjoyable career CV in a specialised part of the entertainment industry,
daresay very satisfying & rewarding in itself - creatively and remunatively...

But is it really any more deserving of public & civic awarded recognition
than, say for example, my old mum who retired after a lifetime working in OAP care homes.
Washing and wiping private parts & arses of infirm and incontinent senior citizens day in and day out;
let alone holding their hands and comforting them on their death beds
whilst the families who dumped them there were too busy or far away...???

Now my mum would probably piss her self laughing at the idea
of a medal and a formal title
and getting all dressed up for a royal tea party

- but despite being a commited lefty since the end of World war 2
she'd be well chuffed to meet the queen and have a sneaky snoop round her garden, kitchen, and bathrooms........

Probably even be first to volunteer to help her majesty clean herself up in the toilet if need arose....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:53 AM

The question was "what exactly has she done [above and beyond any other professional 'folk' performer in her relatively young age group]
to deserve such special meritus recognition ???"

Regarding your completely different question, I'm sure that there are hundreds of people from within the sports and entertainment industries who have been awarded MBEs. It doesn't seem that Eliza's is particularly out of character. Nor does it undermine the awards that go to people for services to their communities or the caring professions. I believe there are many of those each year. My friend won one a few years ago for services to nursing.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,eliza carthy
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:52 PM

Hello all, it's been a while. Forgive me this please.
    To clarify: I accepted the award with the purpose of publicising a worthwhile minority music. I don't believe that ticking the "no" box two months ago would have done anything to further that cause.
I do not believe in the monarchy or class systems but I do believe that the award of MBE is specifically given by "ordinary" people (whatever that means) to people who work at a grassroots level to benefit and further their communities, which I believe I have done.
GUEST, Anon, I also believe that I have perhaps done more politically than most folks my age to stick my neck out for this community that we occupy. I set out over twenty years ago, and continue, to debate issues of Englishness in the world and at home and promote English traditional music both in the world and at home in a way that I do not believe anyone else of my generation has done to the same extent, possibly just as a result of my longevity but also as a result of bloody-mindedness and early on, an unwillingness to undersell the wider argument which I felt was vital during a nationwide malaise and lack of confidence.
I have done the above in various ways, some of which have done me lots of favours and some of which have done me no favours at all. I have worked monstrously hard towards this goal (which is more of a process than a goal) with fluctuating interest from the world since I was thirteen years old, and I will be doing so until I drop. It is my absolute reason for being, and yes I do think we deserve it as a community.
There are in addition, plenty of things I have not yet done, compared to others my age. I have not engaged in teaching that much, and I am aiming to change that. Organising stages for people coming up is also something I have only had limited involvement in, but I'm working on that too. I always saw myself as someone holding the door open. It'd be nice if it was true.
There are people out there that just want to make records, and good luck to them. I am not one of those. Hopefully, good luck to me too? This is a thing that undoubtedly makes the phone ring, and I can continue to do what i hope is a good and worthwhile thing as a result.
I know that I started young as a result of the springboard my family gave me (i heard once that traditional music was a generation game. So perhaps that's natural, but you know, still grateful). I know that there are thousands of people in the world who work a lot harder than me who could do with a pat on the back at the very least. I also know that connections in art and community make people a bit happier, and that while I will never be Mother Theresa it's worth doing one thing that does that, and worth doing what you love and what you might be good at.
Thanks for reading. And sorry, but I haven't said it all out loud yet.
Unless you're a troll, in which case, like, well done and fuck off and stuff. ;-)
Xe

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

Well said, Guest, whoever you are. Wish I knew.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:46 AM

Just to say, Eliza, v glad to read your comments on the thread. Thank you for coming.

Don't expect you remember me, though I have followed your career with interest & admiration. I'm an old friend of Martin & Norma, whom I once interviewed in my flat in Cambridge for Folk Review way-back-when. Norma intro'd me to you at the Peter Bellamy Memorial Concert, but we haven't actually met since.

But all best traditional greetings just the same.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:47 AM

... and of course many congratulations on your honour!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

absolutely...very well done!

I think you should give serious consideration to my idea of calling yourself Lady Eliza Carthy - it will raise the whole tone of the folk revival. and you could judge flowershows

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:48 AM

Anonymous Guest posted on 23 June: Probably even be first to volunteer to help her majesty clean herself up in the toilet if need arose....

Can I say that I have always had the highest respect for the Waterson-Carthy family for their work in putting our music back into circulation.
I have an even higher respect for them being decent folk who are not above cleaning up after other people.
At the last National Festival I was in the ladies' loo ( behind a closed door at the time) when I heard Norma and Eliza enter the room. Norma said - "What a mess someone's left". The counter tops were covered in tissues, paper towels and large puddles of water.
When I came out of the cubicle I saw Norma and Eliza mopping down the place with paper towels and making the place more like you would expect at home.
They are my sort of people. Be proud of your MBE Eliza, I am proud of you and your mum & dad.
Mary

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 09:34 AM

Thank you Eliza, for everything you and your wonderful family have done already and will do in the future.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Well written Eliza and congratulations.

Joe & Mo Nicholson

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,eliza carthy
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 01:26 PM

Thanks all. Further to a post above by GUEST achmelvich also-the Queen whispered "I'm very glad to do this one" to my Dad when presenting him with his, and gave him the slightest of winks…x

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:20 PM

My objection to the honours system is that someone so talented and influential in the folk music scene has been "honoured" by someone who doesn't know a crotchet from a hatchet.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:35 PM

A bit of a non-point, surely, Jim? Eliza·IIR has her job to do, Eliza·C has hers. No reason they can't each recognise that the other does hers efficiently, without being necessarily able to appreciate all its complexities.

EIIR's is, in this instance, to express, on qualified advice, the recognition and appreciation of those who do know, on behalf of society as a whole. As Eliza herself put it, "I do believe that the award of MBE is specifically given by "ordinary" people (whatever that means) to people who work at a grassroots level to benefit and further their communities".

I bet you will "honour" a footballer or an actor on TV with your approval. Could you do either of their jobs, do you reckon?

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,elizacarthy
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:52 PM

Jim, the Queen doesn't decide the Honours list. It is put together by the honours committee, who react to nominations from (anonymous) "normal" people.
And does anyone know the kind of music the Queen likes? Does anyone care? It seemed to me a nice thing that she did in fact know Dad and was happy to give him his award. I imagine being Queen is pretty weird.
…."i wouldn't be king for a hundred pounds"
-Alice
xe

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 03:57 PM

a crotchette....bit like a mankini...a very revealing swimming costume.
hatchet....instructions to chicken, regarding egg.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 04:03 PM

MtheGM to be the Queen you just have to born.. I realise of course this discussion will only go one way so I'm out.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 06:09 PM

Me too. Not following this one any further.

Bye bye, Jim. CU on another thread!

Best

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 12:19 AM

Next morning -- slow burn

But must nevertheless point out supreme irrelevance in that non-argument. Elected presidents, dictators, & all other heads of state confer honours, under advice from the committees appointed in their countries for the purpose, who will not necessarily have any more knowledge of the details of all the achievements, contributions or 'services' for which they were awarded than will a hereditary monarch. So the fact the HMQ happened to have been born to the job rather than achieving it by any other means, is most gloriously irrelevant to JMcL's own point

isn't it?

Silly kipper!

~M~

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:12 AM

well yeh, but when you think of all the crap the rest of us wade through. royalty sort of enshrines and gives the nod of approval to the inequality of some people born to wealth and privilege.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy MBE
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 07:14 AM

Well said Eliza, and well done for confronting the critics ... can't think of many who would do that in such circumstances...
Derek