Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?

Subject: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 03:09 AM

Should the "van" in the middle be capitalized by first letter or not? I'm a bit confused... Sometimes it is, sometimes not.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 04:25 AM

a big van or a little van, that is the question.....

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 06:01 AM

Smithsonian Folkways calls him Dave Van Ronk....and that's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 06:42 AM

It's to do with the origins of patronyms, that some were from professions (Baker, Butcher - don't know of any Candlestickmakers), others descriptive (Douglas, White) and others topographic, where they were from. "van" is the Flemish/Dutch for "of", and either referred to a commoner from somewhere - in which case it was classically spelled with an upper case V - or was from the noble family who were Lords of the place - in which case it was a lower case v. The same applies to the Francophone areas of the borderlands, de=nobility, De=commoner.

The Dutch having pretty much done away with the feudal system a few generations back decided that to emphasise this, all Vans would become van, and so it's only in Belgium where it remains significant.

So, unless Dave can show he is descended from the Lords of Ronk, he should correctly use the upper case V, just to show he's a good ole boy.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw excessively whimsical
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 07:19 AM

Interesting (vaguely) that Wiki references that use his surname alone are to "Van Ronk". Yet you'd think I was barking if I referred to "van Beethoven!"

Confusing stuff indeed. Carolan or O'Carolan? Karajan or von Karajan? (Though "nazi" will do for him, I reckon). And should it simply be "the Man"? (think about it!)

Just "Winkle"?

Sorry. I had a spare minute, that's all...

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw more musing
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 07:29 AM

Sorry for this sidetrack, but when we went to Prague I noticed that the billings posted outside the concert halls for classical recitals always provided the full initials of the composers' names. I suppose J.S. Bach isn't too eyebrow-raising, but we also got L.V. Beethoven, A. Dvorak, W. A. Mozart, P.I. Tchaikovsky, J. Brahms, B. Smetana and so on. Maybe there are just no rules!

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:24 AM

My father flew 18 radar-jamming missions in WW2 ,with his regular pilot, Squadron Leader Ralph Van Den Bok , DFC and two bars ( he was half Dutch and half Australian ) .I have capitalised the "Van" whenever referring to him in writing , ie on the 214 Squadron website.How you write Rip Van Winkle is up to you and Washington Irving !!

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:38 AM

As regards the good Ludwig, I was listening to Classical FM this morning and they actually answered that one - they have a kind of musical almanach out at the moment to plug. It seems he himself acknowledged it was a term he added to his name, one presumes to be able to adopt a sense of august authority, to hold his head up with the Baron von Munchausens around him. 'van' is in any case at best Low German, and he was not from an area where Low German was spoken, born and bred in Bonn before settling in Vienna where he lived out his life: I suppose he chose the Low form to protect himself from any accusation of aping his betters, which would have been dangerous to his career at that time.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 08:58 AM

Squadron Leader Ralph Van Den Bok , DFC and two bars ( he was half Dutch and half Australian ) .I have capitalised the "Van" whenever referring to him in writing

The Dutch custom would be to not capitalise. Ralph van den Bok would be considered the correct version.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:00 AM

should have added this:

Link to rules for use of capitals in dutch names

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:02 AM

Dave spelled it with a capital V.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:20 AM

Sorry Pieter ; Ik heb een grote fuit gemaakt !! Maar dank U wel voor de link !! Het is gellukig dat Ik kan it verstaan , ja ? ( Ik heb in Belgie gewerkt , met de VDAB in Wevelgem ).

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 09:30 AM

Bugger ! I wrote "it" instead of "het " !!

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw being really really silly
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:08 PM

Ah, there goes Mohamed Al-Fayed!


Hi, Mr Fayed! Mind if I call you Al?

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Mohamed Al-Fayed
Date: 08 Dec 14 - 12:22 PM

If you'll be my bodyguard. Yes.

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Dec 14 - 07:34 AM

One could always ask George Papavgeris ; despite being Greek,he speaks fluent Dutch so he knows you know .

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 07:32 AM

For those who don't read Dutch, Peter's posting added that the Dutch use a capital if no forename or initials is used, ie Dr Van den Puits but Jan van den Puits - but use the Belgian style I described (specifically the form in the National Register, but that adds a test of nobility in any case) when writing to a Belgian.
Besten

Subject: RE: Dave van Ronk or Dave Van Ronk?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:11 AM

And should it simply be "the Man"? (think about it!)

Coincidentally, I was driving the other day and I was astonished to see Van Morrison in my rear-view mirror, driving behind me.

It was only after a moment that I realized that the image was reversed in the mirror, and it wasn't Van Morrison, it was actually a Morrison's van.



I'll get me coat . . .