Racist songs .... arghhhh!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:00 PM

omidheach - your story exemplifies what is wrong with worrying too much about the language. it might be that you or I would choose to sing it differently, or choose not to sing it at all, but certainly, let the song be heard, as it was recorded.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:14 PM

Well, I've heard many minor alterations to the line in Mary Ellen Carter (which is obviously sung because it is a stirring tribute to the human spirit, so it passes hurdle number one), such as:

"That her name not be lost to women and men"

But personally, I usually just add "and women" at the end, it still fits in the meter and I don't take out any of Stan's line. Scans for me.

But I won't go as far as to make The Dutchman make his own bed...some things you do not mess with!

Bill C

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Laura
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:50 PM

Most of the songs I have come across w/ the "N" word have been originated by blacks- mostly in the slave days- includes spirituals, hoedowns, lullabies. Most of the of the other potentially objectionable songs (i.e. Stephen Foster) seem to be much more euphemistic and we get terms like "Darkie". The "N" word is basically just a dialect variation of Negro which still seems to be semi politically correct when compared to the "N" version.

As to whether or not to banish these songs, well I guess that would be a shame. They are historical and describe life as it was in the time period. It's unfortunate that Slavery, discrimination, all of the atrocities against people of other races have occurred, however, I think by keeping these songs alive it serves as a reminder and that no one wants to go back there again.

Just my 2 cents worth Laura

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 07:39 AM

I think the comment about "The Ways of Man" misses the point. The song is actually about the ways of man, as in "male people," not about "man" as a generic term for people of both sexes. Women don't go out in boats in unsafe weather and get drowned, to prove their machismo. Just like men don't really notice what they're wearing for clothes, just so they're comfortable and don't look so different from what everyone else is wearing that it attracts attention.

To those who say that any suggestion that there are any inherent personality differences between the sexes is sexist, I say....no, I can't say that here; what about...no, I guess I can't say that here either....

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: aldus
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:52 AM

I believe that political "correctness" is one of the most disturbing obsession of this obsession ridden era. There are two wonderful quotes i always keep in mind when the word police are ona tear.... 1] a free society has something to offend everyone and democracy allows us to to be equally offended. 2]Ypu cannot conceal thoughts by cpncealing evidence that they existed. Democracy must take risks and allow for all opionion and expression no matter how odious. If democracy does not do that it ceases to be democracy.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 11:49 AM

Joe, Thanks!

As I've said once before in a long lost thread: Once Roy Rogers was out in the barn shoveling messy & aromatic stuff. He had to take his new boots off before going into the ranch house for breakfast. When he emerged from eating, he found that a cougar or some kind of animal had eaten the tops off of his boots and he jumped on Trigger & rode after the animal. An hour later he arrived back at the ranch with the dead animal slung across his saddle. As Dale Evans met him and the door she sang out to him loudly: "Pardon me Roy, is that the cat that chewed your new shoes?"

That's how I always sing the song now!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:06 AM

I stumbled onto this old thread and after almost 10 years - and find I have a bit more to add. So here goes:

I rarely sing to general audiences, songs that have sensitive racial content - except I sometimes sing "Yellow Rose of Texas." BUT when I sing it, I use the very commonly accepted set of lyrics that have long since replaced the word "darkie" with "fellow."

The oldest known written set of lyrics for this song, from around 1830 - say "She's the sweetest rose of color this darkie ever knew" but in America, we have long been singing, "She's the sweetest rose of color this fellow ever knew." And leave the rest of song original (there are exceptions - some Civil War versions have appeared and some local versions).

"The Yellow Rose" song is about the singer's fondness for a lovely girl of color, as he tells us - presumably a mulatto of "high yellow color" - and those words are gentle enough. They never were intended to be anything more then a loving description - so they seem to pass modern correctness tests.

The song is hugely popular in the US. Everyone, it seems has heard it and enjoys it. Still I think people haven't always paid close attention to its lyrics, so when I sing it, I watch for a few gears turning behind the audience member's eyes - when they realize he is singing about a Yellow Rose, or pretty girl of color.

As for other songs - other songs that might now have sensitivity, though they had a very different understanding of race issues when they were written - I don't usually have a place to sing them. And I wouldn't without comment, or should I say "explanation."

Here's a good example of such a song:

In the song Honest Pat Murphy - aka SONG OF THE SPLINTERED SHILLELAGAH (a version of this song is in the DT).

There is a verse that is commonly left out now-a-days, and one I sing only when I have a Civil War history focused audience and I have the chance to comment on it.

The song lists the Irish immigrant's reasons for joining, willingly in the American struggle to preserve the Union. The singer says they think it's a bit queer for brother to fight brother, and they prefer to rush into battle against the English - but they are happy to lay down their lives to preserve the Union. However, in this one verse that I commonly do not sing, they say they have no interest in joining the struggle to end slavery. This was a common feeling among the newly immigrant Irish in America (perhaps even a majority feeling in that crowd). These guys, or at least this singer was not Abolishionist! Here's the verse:

Jeff Davis ya thief if I had ya but here
Your beautiful plans I'd be ruinin'
I'd give a taste of me bedad
For tryin' to burst up the Union
And there's a crowd in the North too
And they're just as bad
Abolishionist Spouters, so scaley
For troublin' the negroes I think they deserve
A whack from me sprig of shillelagah

The verse is well worth singing, in the context of historical discussion. It is clever and beautifully captures a common (not ubiquitous) Irish immigrant sentiment from that place and time - but it's meaning would be lost or misunderstood to a general audience, without discussion. (And by the way, there many Union loyalists who felt like the Irish singer of this song - Civil War to save the Union, NOT to end slavery.)

The song itself, is rich with historical and cultural value - most of which can be lost on a general audience - but it is a strong song, a "stand alone" song and it works really well for a general audience without explanation. I believe the listeners who think about it will get it, or get some of it - and I believe the song may very well plant seeds of question that listeners seek answers to later on - or it will motivate them to listen more carefully next time around.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:43 AM

Mitch Miller changed it to:
She's the sweetest rose of Texas
This young boy ever knew...

A whole generation grew up not knowing the yellow rose was mulatto.

I find it interesting that "a target" claimed to make use of the forum and threads but posted only once in his entire career - this thread. A troll, I suppose.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:15 AM

Just because an old song uses language which today we find unacceptable doesn't make it racist.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:20 AM

Howard-

You may have a point. Would you provide an example to illustrate it?

I generally agree with what Jed has just posted above.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:41 AM

John Hartford modified the old verse:
Some folks say that a n____ won't steal
But I found three in my corn field
One half black, another half brown
And the third old boy was gettin' on home.

John sang:
Some folks say that a hippy won't steal
But I found three in my corn field
One had a flag and another had a bomb
And the third old boy was gettin' on home.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:41 AM

Yes Howard. Agreed.

In my "Honest Pat Murphy" example above, however; there were plenty of racist feeling behind the anti-Abolishionist feelings in the North. But in the Yellow Rose, I suspect there were none. Still in both instances language is used about which we are sensitive today.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:05 PM

The original post posed the question as to whether the racist songs had a place on this forum. I believe the answer is yes, repulsive though they may be to many. It seems to me that we must never shield ourselves from our past, no matter how repulsive. To do so allows the revulsion to fade, and the apologists to gain ground. We see this in the area of racism with regard to the Holocaust, and with regard to the American Civil Rights struggle. Already, even though much of the horror occurred less than 75 years ago, we hear folks playing them down.

But, in the course of the discussion, it is important to understand what racism actually is. According to Merriam-Webster racism is defined as, "a belief that race is the primary determinent of human traits and capabilities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race". Using that criteria, it seems that the song "Yellow Rose of Texas" might be using a term that could be viewed (by today's standards) as outdated and a bit insensitive, but not particularly racist. And I agree with Jed that it is important to preserve historically.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:41 PM

Ok so what is a "Beaner"and what is a "piker"
Cheers

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 09 - 05:59 PM

There are some songs that haven't been buried anywhere near as deep with a stake through their chests as the ones mentioned so far. I have here a copy of The Hootenanny Sing Book (reprints from Sing Out, ed. Irwin Silber, 1963) which includes The Road to Eilat, a Zionist militarist number about expropriating Arab land by armed force and which includes an extra verse saying what a good and progressive idea that was by none other than Pete Seeger.

Then we have Dublin in the Rare Ould Times, in which the narrator attacks one character for being both Black and English and hence not the sort of person who had any business being in Dublin. I'd hate to think how Gypsies might feature in Pete St John's songs.

I've never heard anyone sing the Eilat thing and don't expect to (quite likely both Silber and Seeger would now disown it), but Dublin in the Rare Ould Times is a permanent fixture in the plastic-Paddy repertoire.

Anti-English racism is a recurrent theme in some Scottish music genres. Usually takes the form of how the song (or tune, sometimes) is framed and introduced, rather than with the content itself.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:23 PM

One aspect of this discussion that I've not read yet is that some people may have a nostalgic feeling for a song or rhyme that is racially and/or culturally insensitive because they have good memories of that learning that song from a loved one. They then pass that song on to their children and grandchildren. But maybe at some point that tradition ends because those children and grandchildren recognize that the song contains words that are no longer acceptable or its message is no longer acceptable.

For example, I posted to that thread four times. Two times I focused on an analysis of some of the words of that rhyme and how I thought they might be the source of a contemporary children's rhyme I had collected. One time I welcomed a guest to that discussion and to this forum. And the fourth time I wrote this post:

thread.cfm?threadid=6971

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man...
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:53 AM

I'd like to make some random comments about this rhyme:

From reading the comments posted on this thread, it appears that few people have included in their posts any acknowledgement of the fact that the words of "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" ridicules Chinese people. One poster who did recognize this was GUEST,Darren ex-West Bromwich; 18 Jan 08 - 11:05 PM. Darren posted this comment:

"My Dad taught this one to me and his Dad taught it to him. Obviously back in the day they had a a hatred for Asian people and made up songs to ridicule them"
-snip-

Another poster who recognized the "socially incorrect" nature of this apparently fondly remembered rhyme is GUEST,Hugh
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:22 PM who wrote:

"I remember a song I heard at summer camp in Canada in the 60s. Unthinkable that anyone would sing it now.

-snip-

Guest Hugh may have meant that he considers it unthinkable that this song would be sung in public at camp.

It would be interesting to see what Chinese people think of this rhyme.

I hope that if {since} this rhyme continues to be passed down to children that at the very least some acknowledgement of this fact is made by the adults who are carrying on this tradition. And I hope that those who pass this rhyme on to their children reinforce that it isn't good to make fun of people because of their race, ethnicity and/or nationality.

That said, I believe discussion threads like this one serve are important as they help document the variant texts of folk rhymes and folk songs. [See my earlier comments to this thread about the possible connection between "Once In China"... and other certain other children's rhymes].

I think that community folklorists, professional folklorists, and the general public have only begun to recognize the importance of text based Internet discussion forums such as Mudcat as a means of documenting, studying, and passing on the words to children's rhymes/songs and other folk songs. And, hopefully, in the immediate future, more and more people will also recognize the huge role that Internet sites such as YouTube can serve in helping to document, study, and disseminate not only the words,but also the tunes, and any performance activities of these examples of folk culture..

GUEST,Brian Fellows 16 Nov 07 - 05:11 PM appears to be the only person so far to post a URL to a YouTube video of "Once In China There Lived A Great Man". Along with that website address, Brian Fellows adked "I wonder if the tune is always the same?"

Here's the hyperlink to that YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSLYYkEH_nM

For some reason that video clip is titled "Chewing Gum".

I searched for this rhyme on YouTube under its title, and there doesn't appear to be any entries of it as of this date.

-snip-

To some extent that posts is an example of my take on historical and also contemporary songs and rhymes that have could be said to be racially insensitive. I don't want those songs deleted from this forum, but I'm concerned that people might pass those songs on to another generation who may not understand that these songs contain culturally/racially insensitive terms.

Also, as an amateur folklorist, I'm interested in reading variants of rhymes. I'm glad when people post demographical information, and I'm interested in exploring possible connections between old songs and rhymes and contemporary songs and rhymes.

Furthermore, I'm concerned that an overwhelming majority of the posters to that "Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man" threads are guests to this forum and because they are guests they probably don't "get" that this forum presents historical songs and rhymes that may contain terms that are outdated and racially insensitive because of their historical, folkloric value.

In this threadRE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting I wrote that I wish that Max would approve posting a disclaimer on the front page that indicated that certain songs/rhymes on this forum might contain culturally insensitive language but that these compositions were posted for the sake of history and for folkloric research. But whether such a disclaimer happens or not (and my sense is that it won't), I'll still post on Mudcat and continue to try to maintain a balance of folkloric study and societal concern when I consider something to be concerning and I recognize that everyone may not always agree with what I consider to be concerning.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:48 PM

For the record, I'm aware that my first post to this thread and the comment that I reposted from another Mudcat thread contains mistakes such as words that should have been deleted in a correctly done cut & paste job.

Especially when it comes to emotionally charged subjects-such as this one is for me-I try to carefully read my posts before hitting the submit button. But if I think too much about these kinds of posts, I won't post them. So although I re-read what I wrote (the new portion of this comment), and although I caught some errors and made changes in this post, I obviously didn't catch all of my errors.

I apologize about that.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:23 PM

Ugh!

For the record, I'm aware that my first post to this thread and the comment that I reposted from another Mudcat thread contain mistakes such as words that should have been deleted in a correctly done cut & paste job.

**

Since I'm here, let me mention that with regard to children's playground rhymes-the category of study that I'm most interested in on Mudcat-there are examples of contemporary children's rhymes that mention race and have text that document problems between people of different races. One rhyme that appears to be widely known in the USA among Black girls is this is an updated version of the rhyme "Down Down Baby" also known as "I Like Coffee I Like Tea" Here's a portion of that rhyme:

I like coffee I like tea
I like a Black boy and he like me.
Step back White boy. You don't shine..
I'll get a Black boy to beat your behind.

Down Down Baby-Race in Children's Rhymes

**

There are other contemporary examples of children's rhymes that may appear to mention race but actually the children who chant them don't think of them as referring to race or ethnicity. "Shimmy Shimmy China" is an excerpt of this type of rhyme:

Shimmy Shimmy China
I know karate.
Shimmy Shimmy China
I can shake in my body.

-snip-

The children who chant this rhyme consider "China" to be a girl's name and not the name of that Asian nation or a referent for people of Chinese ancestry. This example is a good reminder for me that sometimes adults interpret children's rhymes and songs differently than adults do.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:27 PM

I have one song sheet I've been sitting on for a long time. It was written as a promotional number for a pharmaceutical company (which still exists) near the beginning of the 20th century. The whole thing is a farrago of racist stereotypes from beginning to end - the worst aspects of the blackface minstrel tradition with essentially zero musical or poetic quality to redeem it.

But it seems to me it ought be more widely known, simply because of what it says about how companies like that promoted their wares.

I still don't like the idea that somebody might pick the thing up as originally intended.

Maybe I ought to upload the scanned image of the music sheets to my site, without transcribing them?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:32 PM

Jack Campin: Tell us the name of the song. Maybe we'll be able to find it at the Levy collection or one of the similar sites.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Melissa
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:00 PM

Several years ago, there was a flurry of talk about my State Song (Missouri Waltz) being inappropriate and how it was wrong for us to have a state song with offensive words--and each time I heard somebody talking about it, I asked WHAT the offensive words were and/or what was wrong about the song. I couldn't get an answer other than another round of "well..whatever the words are, it's wrong for it to be our State Song!"

So, I started searching around to see if I could find original words. The song is common for fiddlers around here and I was thinking that if it was truly offensive, I probably ought to decide whether it was a song I needed to stop playing. My fiddling was/is bad enough that I didn't figure I needed to also add the offensiveness of playing a Wrong song.

It was hard to find original words. I ended up getting to see them online but it took a few years of sporadic searching for me to chance onto them.

I was relieved to find that the horrible awfulness was dated-sentimental..nostalgic storyline that probably never happened (like a lot of Nostalgia)

I don't remember where I finally found lyrics. If it was Mudcat, it's another reason for me to be appreciative of the stacks of information and knowledge that piles up around here.
If anything I sing/play is going to be censored, I believe I am old enough to be responsible for any Fixes I may do. I'm old enough to know exactly what has been changed in a song and I truly prefer to have a semi-accurate answer when someone says 'You're not supposed to sing that song..it's Wrong and Offensive..and since your words were slightly different, you probably don't even KNOW what the song originally said..hmmph'
I prefer to have an answer when someone says 'Hey, I thought MO Waltz was supposed to be awful?! It wasn't so bad when you sang it..did I miss something?'

My non-invasive 'fix' was that when I sing it, the old folks are humming and I was a child sitting on my mama's knee.
By being able to find it for myself, I also got a chance to re-insert the second part about 'strum strum..' which I had never heard a fiddler play.

It's just one song and I'm just one person so I doubt it has any effect on the Earth's ability to turn on it's axis, but without the ability to find those words for myself, I'd be embarrassed/ashamed/slightly mortified that my State Song was Offensive. It offends ME to be expected to feel ashamed of something without me knowing what's so awful about it. I want to know the history and storylines and I want to digest the information for myself.

Hooray for places like this where folks like me can find old/original words and come to our own conclusions!

*****
Tim Leaning:
I have read that 'pikers' are/were Missourians. It had to do with Pike County, wagon trains, westward expansion (maybe gold rush?) type stuff. "Sweet Betsy from Pike" and all that.
If I understand correctly, the negative way of using the word has something to do with being a layabout, avoiding responsibility, not doing your part (this is not a proper definition..just kind of how I understand the word)

If somebody wants to correct that, I'd be glad to know more. It would be kind of nice to understand why I'm supposed to be offended at hearing the word.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:14 PM

pike: "...medieval weapon consisting of a spearhead attached to a long pole or pikestaff; superseded by the bayonet..."

Ask an Irishman what "I'll have his head on a pike" means.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Melissa
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:17 PM

PDQ:
So, were the ones doing the piking called 'pikers'?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:36 PM

I have no idea.

I live in the sagebrush of northern Nevada, not the troubled land of northern Ireland.

I think usng a pike on someone is rather distaseful no matter how the user justifies it.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:44 PM

beaner: a slang term for a Mexican. Comes from their penchant for bean-based food such as chili with beans and re-fried beans.

People who lived in mixed neighborhoods called each other names like "gringo" and "beaner" and kept a smile while doing it. No one was offended.

Now days that could get you killed. Not everything has improved in the last 40 years.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:25 PM

Jack Campin in yur comments about DUBLIN IN THE RARE OULD TIMES you say;

"the narrator attacks one character for being both Black and English and hence not the sort of person who had any business being in Dublin"

Not in the lyrics I've known.

In this song, the singer is bemoaning the signs of change in his city, decrying the loss of the old ways and his inability or lack of interest in moving on in the new world.

I presume the verse you refer to is this one:

I courted Peggy Dignan,
As pretty as you please
A rogue and a child of Mary
From the Rebel Liberties
I lost her to a student chap
With skin as black as coal
When he took her off to Birmingham,
She took away my soul

How is that an attack on anyone? In a song where he's listing the changes to the in world in which he lives, he tells us that the girl he courted ran off with a student, presumably the singer is not a student. He tells us that the student had black skin, presumably that would not have happened in his father's generation, and that they went off to Birmingham. Where is the racial attack?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:01 AM

Another idea for acknowledging that parts of a song may be found objectionable is to add ones own, contemporary voice to a commentary that is part of the song. The abrupt shift in voice highlights the historical and not-the-views-of-the-performer tone of the rest of the song. I experimented with that in this recent recording of a song that inevitably raises questions. See the last, new verse. "The Chinee Bumboatman"
Actually, my opinions, on a word by word basis, of what is and isnt objectionable in the song are complex and far too lengthy...so this curt, sung "addendum" obviously cannot to them justice. Its function, rather, is the acknowledgement of "breaking taboo" and that shift in voice I was talking about...I hope

Gibb

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:19 AM

I have read that 'pikers' are/were Missourians. It had to do with Pike County, wagon trains, westward expansion (maybe gold rush?) type stuff. "Sweet Betsy from Pike" and all that.
If I understand correctly, the negative way of using the word has something to do with being a layabout, avoiding responsibility, not doing your part (this is not a proper definition..just kind of how I understand the word)

Any connection with the modern English usage of Pikeys as a description for 'travelling folk', the etymology given in Urban Dictionary as those who encamped around the 'turnpike'?

Having said 'moden English' usage, I note the first citation above dates it back to the 19th century!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Melissa
Date: 07 May 09 - 03:11 AM

Nigel:
I've heard "Where are you piking off to?" (where are you going?)
and "..guess I'll head on down the pike" (I'll be leaving now..)

During the US Westward Expansion, Missouri was a favored starting point. People from the east who were heading west would meet in MO, finish gathering supplies from traders, meet their party, get whatever information they could about maps and where to fork off to reach different areas.
Those people would get in their wagons and head west. They'd stay in their wagons, camping to get a little rest for themselves and the beasts (I guess it was probably oxen pulling most of the wagons?)

It seems logical to me that in at least that American usage of 'piker' could easily be related to 'pikeys'..Travellers. They were travelling and living in their wagons--at least until they landed and built a house.

The book I read the 'piker' definition was called "Labels for Locals". I moved recently and most of my stuff is still at my house..including books.
One of these times when I'm at home sorting/pilfering my things, I'll make a point to look more closely at that book to see if there's a more complete entry than I remember.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 May 09 - 04:03 AM

Partridge gives "piker" as 19 C. slang for a tramp, vagrant; occasionally a Gypsy. Probably originating from turnpike .

Regards

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jim P
Date: 07 May 09 - 05:30 AM

I was actually looking for something else, but found a version of Chinee Bumboatman on YouTube, that contained a final verse newly written, dealing with the subject of this thread:

Additional verse from "hultonclint" on YouTube:

Now some piece man no likee this song
Him talkee it give him offence
But in singin' it I wish no disrespect
To the fine Chinois ladies and gents
There's many a present PC song
That ticks me off far more
So quit suckin' yer thumb
And take it in fun
At least this song isn't a bor- ee-eye-or-ee-eye!

Hitch-ee-come kitch-ee-come, i-yi-yi
Hippie man no likee me
No sabby the value of history
Too much he smokin' pipee, ka-ya.
Too much he smokin' pipee.

Subject: Lyr Add: BORDER AFFAIR / SPANISH IS THE LOVING...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 May 09 - 10:44 AM

IN 1907 Charles Badger Clark wrote his love song "Border Affair" (also know as "Spanish Is The Loving Tongue" (music by Billy Simon 1925). It's about a cross cultural love affair between a "Tex & a Mex", "Like as not it's better so". The feeling I get is that the affair was ok but the male recognizes (it is sung from the male's point of view) that it's not socially acceptable but that he's also ok with that as an excuse not to pursue the affair into a long lasting relationship but still "pines". But of course we read into any song what we'd like or can. The version I sing is not racist IMHO but lets it be known that racism does play a part in the affair there are stronger versions & versions that leave out the racism altogether

BORDER AFFAIR (also know as SPANISH IS THE LOVING TONGUE)
(Charles Badger Clark, Jr. 1907 & music by Billy Simon 1925)

Spanish is the loving tongue
Soft as music, light as spray;
'Twas a girl I learned it from
Living down Sonora way.
I don't look much like a lover,
Yet I hear her love words over.
Often when I'm all alone
"Mi amor, mi corazon"

On the nights that I would ride
She would listen for my spurs,
Throw them big door open wide,
Shine them laughing eyes of hers.
How my heart would nigh stop beating
When I heard her tender greeting,
Whispered soft for me alone ---
"Mi amor, mi corazon"

Moonlight on the patio,
Old senora nodding near,
Me and Juana talking low
So the Madre couldn't hear.
How the hours would go a-flyin!
And too soon I'd hear her sighin'
In her little sorry tone ---
"Adios, mi corazon."

I ain't seen her since that night,
I can't cross the line, you know.
She was Mex and I was white;
Like as not it's better so.
Yet I've always sort of missed her
Since that last wild night I kissed her;
She stole my heart, left her own
"Adios, mi Corazon"

As to Mitch Miller chaging the line to "the sweetest Rose in Texas", seems idiotic when the song title still remains "The Yellow Rose of Texas". It also seems that in such a loving song of fondness a cross cultural affair may have been more exceptable in the day when the song was sung as contemporary that in our present day of "PC enlightenment", same goes for the above "Border Affair".

Jed, your leaving the song intact with the exception of "Darkie" was the best opition IMHO, I use 'cowboy' or 'soldier' instead of 'fellow', but consider it to be a tender love song. The "Yellow Rose" is a hero to many in that part of the US & why wouldn't she be?

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:17 AM

Thanks for the info re piker and beaner.
I have heard Romany's referred to as pikies but have no idea why.

Subject: Lyr Add: ROSA LEE McFALL (Charlie Monroe)
From: pdq
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:25 AM

here is another song in a similar vein...


Rosa Lee McFall ~ Charlie Monroe

Out on the lonely hillside in a cabin low and small
Lived the sweetest rose of color my Rosa Lee McFall

Her eyes were bright and shining and her voice was sweet to me
Knew that I would always love her and I hoped that she loved me

My eyes turned to me, my darlin' and this is what she said:
You know that I would always love you when you and I are wed.

Then God way up in heaven one day for her did call
I lost my bride, oh how I loved her, my Rosa Lee McFall

I searched this wide world over through cities great and small
But I never found another like my Rosa Lee McFall

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:47 AM

I, like Jed, have sung The Rare Ould Times for years. It is impossible not to in the States. It is my opinion that to ascribe an attack to any part of that song is projecting one's own biases onto the lyric. To me, the use of "skin as black as coal" was simply a descriptor used so he could get the necessary rhyme for "took away my soul".

So I also would like an explanation as to how that song is an attack.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: goatfell
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:50 AM

and what is wrong with the word Jew that is what they are they are Jews same as Catholics, Protestants etc. I don't agree by calling somone nigger I find that sort of stuff horrible but these folksongs are a part of history and from a time when people spoke thier minds.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:00 PM

It seems to me the test is to replace objectionable words with whatever is currently considered the acceptable term. If the meaning of the song still appears racist even without the objectionable words, that's a good sign that it is racist. If not, then the only problem is with the vocabulary.

The difficulty with modernising the language is that you then have to keep on doing it, as the idea of what terms are acceptable changes over time and place. I've made this point before, but when I was growing up it would have been offensive to call someone "black", the acceptable terms were "negro" or "coloured". Now the exact opposite is the case.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:53 PM

Ian Tyson changed just one line of the Border Affair and gave it a different slant:

I ain't seen her since that night,
I can't cross the line, you know.
She was Mex and I was white;
Like as not it's better so.
Yet I've always sort of missed her
Since that last wild night I kissed her;
She stole my heart, left her own
"Adios, mi Corazon"


"She was Mex and I was white" became "Wanted for a gamblin' fight"

I ain't seen her since that night,
I can't cross the line, you know.
Wanted for a gamblin' fight;
Like as not it's better so.
Yet I've always sort of missed her
Since that last wild night I kissed her;
She stole my heart, left her own
"Adios, mi Corazon"

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:31 PM

Why don't we make a start by eradicating the word "Black" from our joint language altogether,in which case nobody at all could ever be offended by it.We could say "Blank" instead,so giving us ;
Johnny Cash--The Man in Blank
"Goldfinger",starring Honor Blankman
"Take Me Back To The Blank Hills" sung by Doris Day
    "The Blank Shield of Falconworth " (Tony Curtis film)
         "Blank Eyed Susan"
                               And loads more.
    Yellow could be "Jellow" of course :-
         The Jellow Rose of Texas
                         Jellow River
    They Call Me Mellow Jellow
and so on----it's just a thought.
                                  Next time I sing "Johnny Come Down To Hilo", I will,if you like,sing " I never seen the like,since I been born,a big buck FRIGGER with the sea-boots on ",if it will help to avoid an international incident   !!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:32 PM

well, y'are pretty bub'ly aren't ya?

;-)

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 May 09 - 01:30 AM

What's so bad about a change to "big buck sailor"? Of course, that's unless you like singing "nigger". "ON" is the ryhme that needs to be kept.

Mick, agreed, in the same way MacColl used the same turn of phrase in a song of his.


Barry

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 09 - 05:29 AM

Jack Campin: Tell us the name of the song. Maybe we'll be able to find it at the Levy collection or one of the similar sites.

"Doctor Darkey", from Beechams Music Portfolio, volume 10 (advertising "Beecham's Patent Pills"). From the cover listing it looks like Beechams published a *lot* of music - 300 titles.

It looks like it was a rewrite of a pre-existing song with a plug for Beechams added at the end. It would be interesting to know if they rewrote all the other songs they published.

[Dublin in the Rare Ould Times}
So I also would like an explanation as to how that song is an attack.

Look at the writer's website. There are a whole bunch of reactionary attitudes there, bordering on fascism, which make it quite clear we are to take it exactly as written - black men from Birmingham coming to Dublin are just one of the changes he sees as unwelcome.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 09 - 07:40 AM

With regard to the lines "skin as black as coal" in the song "Dublin In The Rare Ould Times", I'd first like to say that I don't know the song-apart from reading about it on this thread. And I've never heard it sung-which is not surprising since I've never heard many of the Anglo folk songs that are discussed in this forum.

Jack wrote that "There are a whole bunch of reactionary attitudes [on the writer's website], bordering on fascism, which make it quite clear we are to take it exactly as written - black men from Birmingham coming to Dublin are just one of the changes he sees as unwelcome". In support of Jack's comment, I think it is disingenuous to pretend that "skin as black as coal" in that song is a phase that has no other connotations but is merely a descriptor of what the man looked like as an arbitrary phrase like the singer saying "almost as old as me".   

No age jokes please :o)

But seriously, on a number of Mudcat threads and elsewhere I have written that I wish for and work for a time when skin color references are no more than valueless descriptors. But I know and most people would admit that in the USA, and in other nations (such as Ireland), most people are not there yet.

Does that mean that I have the same reaction to a phrase such as "skin as black as coal" as I have to the "n" word (spelled out)? No.

Does that mean that I am suggesting that a song which contains the phrase "skin as black as coal" shouldn't be sung in public for entertainment? No.

Have I suggested that the "n" word should be substituted in songs that include that referent no matter the race of those singing [or rapping] them? Yes.

**

It would be nice if persons who sang "Dublin in the Rare Ould Times" recognized that the race of the person who the singer's lady chose over him is pertinent and wasn't added just as a mere descriptor. To say that the race of the person who won the heart of that lady isn't pertinent in that song is like saying that President Barack Obama's race wasn't pertinent and wasn't raised pro and con as a factor in his campaign. And it's like saying that President Barack Obama's racial background isn't really a factor for a number of people who are opposed to his actions as President.

Saying that race still doesn't matter in the USA and elsewhere is a luxury for those who are not people of color. We [people of color] can tell you in myriad ways how race and ethnicity (in the USA meaning "Latino") are still being used against us as individuals and as members of racial/ethnic groups.

Yet, I'm not sure how a singer could mention the significance of the "skin as black as coal" phrase when singing that Dublin In The Rare Ould Days" song except to preface your performance by saying something like "In this song the composer refers to some changes that he (or she) would prefer not to see in the city he loves. That's his (her) view not mine. I'm sharing the song because it's one I find aesthetically pleasing".

Obviously, that preface is just a suggestion, and I'm not advocating for anyone to use it or anything like it. What I am advocating for is that folks admit that historically race was a factor and race often still is a factor in events and personal interactions.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 May 09 - 08:51 AM

I just went to the website and could not find the comments you describe. Could you post a link to them, please?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 09:14 AM

Such fascist causes as these:

He was deeply involved in the Peace Movement
Joined the fight for International Civil Rights
Brendan Behan Commemoration Day
Current interest in Anti Drink/Drive movement
Director of the Beaumont Foundation(Diabetes Research)

He has been honored by these organizations:

    * The Irish Republic Music Writers
    * The Irish Association of Songwriters and Composers
    * The U.S. Irish Cultural Society
    * The U.S. Brendan Cup Committee
    * Irish Music Rights Organisation Songwriter of the Year
    * Beaumont Foundation Cultural Award 2000
    * Goal/Rwanda Award
    * The Peace Train '89 Award
    * Omagh Awareness Award
    * Stenaline UK Songwriter of the Decade

You may not like his politics, and you may not like his songs, but claiming reactionary and fascist attitudes from this list of organizations and causes is simply silly.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 09:25 AM

Azizi - I'm more inclined to acting colorless, as you suggest but I didn't wrote the song. I am certain that the singer of the song is purposely denoting the color of young man who stole his girlfriend from him in the same way I might say, "She ran off with a football player" or "She married a Tory MP" or "They drove off in their Range Rover." All comments meant to have rich connotation, but the singer is not focused on the young man. The singer is focused on the girl who broke his heart.

"When he took her off Birmingham
She took away my soul"

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 09 - 10:44 AM

JedMarum, as a result of my posting on Mudcat, I've "met" a number of people who are "more inclined to acting colorless". And I am glad that there are folks who realize that people's skin color should be nothing but a valueless descriptor.

As I indicated, I don't know that "Dublin In The Rare Ould Times" song. I didn't think I was implying that you wrote the song and I didn't know whose website Jack Campin was referring to. I've never visited that website. If that is your website and if indeed there are indeed "a whole bunch of reactionary attitudes [on the writer's website], bordering on fascism", that doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with what they wrote. My apologies if my post conveyed that.

At least by the 18th century, the "skin as black as coal" descriptor was usually considered to be a negative reference. While the singer in that particular song may have been more focused on the girl that broke his heart, I'm still not convinced that that "black as the coal" phrase was meant to be just a mere informational descriptor. You suggested that that phrase was similar to the singer noting that "she ran off with a football player" or "She married a Tory MP" or "They drove off in their Range Rover". Pardon me if I still doubt that-unless those descriptors are meant to convey some information that is not only something extraordinary, but also something that has a negative connotation.

In other words, not only do I think that the woman running off with a man who was Black was an extraordinary happening, but I think that it is possible that the man being Black could be considered by some folks hearing (reading) this song as a circumstance that made the girl's running off even worse than it would otherwise have been.

My statements shouldn't be construed to mean that I think that the composer of that song was a racist. Perhaps the composer was just capturing a sentiment that made the woman's breaking up with the singer even more dramatic than it would had been if she left him for another White man.

It's true that you can't always interpret history using contemporary attitudes (and I'm assuming that this song is old). However, in my opinion, a comparable contemporary attitude is that held by those White people who have opined that it's bad enough that Republican candidate John McCain lost the Presidential campaign, but that he lost to a Black man makes his losing even worse.

Most Mudcatters may not think this way, but do you doubt that there are some folks who do think this way?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 12:22 PM

I'll start with your last comments first. I think it is clear that a black man winning the US Presidency has been an easy thing to imagine since well before the election. I cannot imagine anyone thinking, let alone speaking the words, "it's bad enough that Republican candidate John McCain lost the Presidential campaign, but that he lost to a Black man makes his losing even worse." I'm sure there are some idiots out there like that - but it is certainly a marginal point-of-view. Obama has long been viewed as presidential by mainstream America, politics aside. I truly believe the bulk of his opposition was political NOT racial.

As for the racial content of the statement; I do not agree that we can conclude the composer ever even meant to refer to race. It probably does, but it could have other meanings.

In any case I believe it was meant as negative descriptor. After all, this guy just stole his girl! And if she's run off with a Footballer, or a Car Salesman, or a Tory MP - those would all have negative connotations that the singer was alluding to. We do this all the time in songwriting.

And - the point is that her running off with a man "with skin as black as coal" (whatever he meant by that) had become something was NOT uncommon. That was the point. The guy's world had changed so much that this was not an uncommon thing.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 09 - 12:31 PM

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree about what the composer might have meant by what he wrote.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 09 - 12:53 PM

I find it fascinating--and depressing--that folk music as an historical record has almost disappeared, and that the songs and the singers are being viewed through the lens of today's propriety.

The violent anti-immigration attitudes of the late 1800s; the attitudes oif both pro-slavery forces and abolitionists towards blacks (and vice versa); the anti-Irish (and anti-Jewish and anti-Polish) sentiments that were widely held at various times in our country's history---they're all part of that histor, and the songs of those eras provide a dramatic view of the past. When Henry Clay Work wrote his abolitionist song "Year of the Jubilo", he was recounting the feeling of slaves who were in the process of becoming free--changing "darkies" to "workers" misses the whole point.

Obviously, any song reflecting now-discarded vakues should be introduces properly to provide context. But I, for one, think that these songs should be sung.