Racist songs .... arghhhh!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 09 - 05:59 PM

There are some songs that haven't been buried anywhere near as deep with a stake through their chests as the ones mentioned so far. I have here a copy of The Hootenanny Sing Book (reprints from Sing Out, ed. Irwin Silber, 1963) which includes The Road to Eilat, a Zionist militarist number about expropriating Arab land by armed force and which includes an extra verse saying what a good and progressive idea that was by none other than Pete Seeger.

Then we have Dublin in the Rare Ould Times, in which the narrator attacks one character for being both Black and English and hence not the sort of person who had any business being in Dublin. I'd hate to think how Gypsies might feature in Pete St John's songs.

I've never heard anyone sing the Eilat thing and don't expect to (quite likely both Silber and Seeger would now disown it), but Dublin in the Rare Ould Times is a permanent fixture in the plastic-Paddy repertoire.

Anti-English racism is a recurrent theme in some Scottish music genres. Usually takes the form of how the song (or tune, sometimes) is framed and introduced, rather than with the content itself.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:41 PM

Ok so what is a "Beaner"and what is a "piker"
Cheers

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:05 PM

The original post posed the question as to whether the racist songs had a place on this forum. I believe the answer is yes, repulsive though they may be to many. It seems to me that we must never shield ourselves from our past, no matter how repulsive. To do so allows the revulsion to fade, and the apologists to gain ground. We see this in the area of racism with regard to the Holocaust, and with regard to the American Civil Rights struggle. Already, even though much of the horror occurred less than 75 years ago, we hear folks playing them down.

But, in the course of the discussion, it is important to understand what racism actually is. According to Merriam-Webster racism is defined as, "a belief that race is the primary determinent of human traits and capabilities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race". Using that criteria, it seems that the song "Yellow Rose of Texas" might be using a term that could be viewed (by today's standards) as outdated and a bit insensitive, but not particularly racist. And I agree with Jed that it is important to preserve historically.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:41 AM

Yes Howard. Agreed.

In my "Honest Pat Murphy" example above, however; there were plenty of racist feeling behind the anti-Abolishionist feelings in the North. But in the Yellow Rose, I suspect there were none. Still in both instances language is used about which we are sensitive today.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:41 AM

John Hartford modified the old verse:
Some folks say that a n____ won't steal
But I found three in my corn field
One half black, another half brown
And the third old boy was gettin' on home.

John sang:
Some folks say that a hippy won't steal
But I found three in my corn field
One had a flag and another had a bomb
And the third old boy was gettin' on home.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:20 AM

Howard-

You may have a point. Would you provide an example to illustrate it?

I generally agree with what Jed has just posted above.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:15 AM

Just because an old song uses language which today we find unacceptable doesn't make it racist.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:43 AM

Mitch Miller changed it to:
She's the sweetest rose of Texas
This young boy ever knew...

A whole generation grew up not knowing the yellow rose was mulatto.

I find it interesting that "a target" claimed to make use of the forum and threads but posted only once in his entire career - this thread. A troll, I suppose.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:06 AM

I stumbled onto this old thread and after almost 10 years - and find I have a bit more to add. So here goes:

I rarely sing to general audiences, songs that have sensitive racial content - except I sometimes sing "Yellow Rose of Texas." BUT when I sing it, I use the very commonly accepted set of lyrics that have long since replaced the word "darkie" with "fellow."

The oldest known written set of lyrics for this song, from around 1830 - say "She's the sweetest rose of color this darkie ever knew" but in America, we have long been singing, "She's the sweetest rose of color this fellow ever knew." And leave the rest of song original (there are exceptions - some Civil War versions have appeared and some local versions).

"The Yellow Rose" song is about the singer's fondness for a lovely girl of color, as he tells us - presumably a mulatto of "high yellow color" - and those words are gentle enough. They never were intended to be anything more then a loving description - so they seem to pass modern correctness tests.

The song is hugely popular in the US. Everyone, it seems has heard it and enjoys it. Still I think people haven't always paid close attention to its lyrics, so when I sing it, I watch for a few gears turning behind the audience member's eyes - when they realize he is singing about a Yellow Rose, or pretty girl of color.

As for other songs - other songs that might now have sensitivity, though they had a very different understanding of race issues when they were written - I don't usually have a place to sing them. And I wouldn't without comment, or should I say "explanation."

Here's a good example of such a song:

In the song Honest Pat Murphy - aka SONG OF THE SPLINTERED SHILLELAGAH (a version of this song is in the DT).

There is a verse that is commonly left out now-a-days, and one I sing only when I have a Civil War history focused audience and I have the chance to comment on it.

The song lists the Irish immigrant's reasons for joining, willingly in the American struggle to preserve the Union. The singer says they think it's a bit queer for brother to fight brother, and they prefer to rush into battle against the English - but they are happy to lay down their lives to preserve the Union. However, in this one verse that I commonly do not sing, they say they have no interest in joining the struggle to end slavery. This was a common feeling among the newly immigrant Irish in America (perhaps even a majority feeling in that crowd). These guys, or at least this singer was not Abolishionist! Here's the verse:

Jeff Davis ya thief if I had ya but here
Your beautiful plans I'd be ruinin'
I'd give a taste of me bedad
For tryin' to burst up the Union
And there's a crowd in the North too
And they're just as bad
Abolishionist Spouters, so scaley
For troublin' the negroes I think they deserve
A whack from me sprig of shillelagah

The verse is well worth singing, in the context of historical discussion. It is clever and beautifully captures a common (not ubiquitous) Irish immigrant sentiment from that place and time - but it's meaning would be lost or misunderstood to a general audience, without discussion. (And by the way, there many Union loyalists who felt like the Irish singer of this song - Civil War to save the Union, NOT to end slavery.)

The song itself, is rich with historical and cultural value - most of which can be lost on a general audience - but it is a strong song, a "stand alone" song and it works really well for a general audience without explanation. I believe the listeners who think about it will get it, or get some of it - and I believe the song may very well plant seeds of question that listeners seek answers to later on - or it will motivate them to listen more carefully next time around.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 11:49 AM

Joe, Thanks!

As I've said once before in a long lost thread: Once Roy Rogers was out in the barn shoveling messy & aromatic stuff. He had to take his new boots off before going into the ranch house for breakfast. When he emerged from eating, he found that a cougar or some kind of animal had eaten the tops off of his boots and he jumped on Trigger & rode after the animal. An hour later he arrived back at the ranch with the dead animal slung across his saddle. As Dale Evans met him and the door she sang out to him loudly: "Pardon me Roy, is that the cat that chewed your new shoes?"

That's how I always sing the song now!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: aldus
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:52 AM

I believe that political "correctness" is one of the most disturbing obsession of this obsession ridden era. There are two wonderful quotes i always keep in mind when the word police are ona tear.... 1] a free society has something to offend everyone and democracy allows us to to be equally offended. 2]Ypu cannot conceal thoughts by cpncealing evidence that they existed. Democracy must take risks and allow for all opionion and expression no matter how odious. If democracy does not do that it ceases to be democracy.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 07:39 AM

I think the comment about "The Ways of Man" misses the point. The song is actually about the ways of man, as in "male people," not about "man" as a generic term for people of both sexes. Women don't go out in boats in unsafe weather and get drowned, to prove their machismo. Just like men don't really notice what they're wearing for clothes, just so they're comfortable and don't look so different from what everyone else is wearing that it attracts attention.

To those who say that any suggestion that there are any inherent personality differences between the sexes is sexist, I say....no, I can't say that here; what about...no, I guess I can't say that here either....

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Laura
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:50 PM

Most of the songs I have come across w/ the "N" word have been originated by blacks- mostly in the slave days- includes spirituals, hoedowns, lullabies. Most of the of the other potentially objectionable songs (i.e. Stephen Foster) seem to be much more euphemistic and we get terms like "Darkie". The "N" word is basically just a dialect variation of Negro which still seems to be semi politically correct when compared to the "N" version.

As to whether or not to banish these songs, well I guess that would be a shame. They are historical and describe life as it was in the time period. It's unfortunate that Slavery, discrimination, all of the atrocities against people of other races have occurred, however, I think by keeping these songs alive it serves as a reminder and that no one wants to go back there again.

Just my 2 cents worth Laura

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:14 PM

Well, I've heard many minor alterations to the line in Mary Ellen Carter (which is obviously sung because it is a stirring tribute to the human spirit, so it passes hurdle number one), such as:

"That her name not be lost to women and men"

But personally, I usually just add "and women" at the end, it still fits in the meter and I don't take out any of Stan's line. Scans for me.

But I won't go as far as to make The Dutchman make his own bed...some things you do not mess with!

Bill C

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:00 PM

omidheach - your story exemplifies what is wrong with worrying too much about the language. it might be that you or I would choose to sing it differently, or choose not to sing it at all, but certainly, let the song be heard, as it was recorded.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 08:58 PM

MarcelloBlues,

Are you from Naples? I have just been listening to the Rienzo Arbore tape with the picture of Clinton on the cover, and it is the best--any idea where I can find the lyrics?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From:
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 08:41 PM

I was listening to a country music program on WKCR, the Columbia U. station, a few years ago. The show's host put on the Blue Sky Boys singing "Kentucky," an old recording of an even older song, one that includes a line about "the darkies singing in the pale moon light." Just before the song reached that line, however, the DJ must have realized what was coming and abruptly lifted the needle off the disc.

I had never heard the Blue Sky Boys' version of this beautiful southern harmony song, only the later 1950s cover by the Louvin Brothers. So I felt a bit cheated by this gratuitous act of self-censorship. Surely it would have been better to let the song play and explain later about the historical context?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: marcelloblues
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 07:44 PM

The only thing to drop are songs, sometimes well confused in pop easy sung at football matches tunes, (at least around me), which contains nazy fascist slogans, or hate for people from Naples because they're all thieves, and a wagon of ugly vacuum imbecille's thought about the whole thing. Personally I don't run for any colour or race, but for the Blues. I just remember an old tune sung by Ebrew people in the lagers which is: The Peatbog Soldiers. cheers

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: bbelle
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 07:27 PM

Racism, anti-semitism, slavery ... they all exist and are a part of history. I don't think the songs should be deleted, nor do I think they should be changed, on paper, because they reflect history. I would sing a work song sung by slaves, but not in dialect, as I think this is inappropriate. I would, however, sing a song sung by holocaust victims, in Yiddish, which, for Jews, is as much a separate language as Polish. I would never sing a song extolling slavery or racism or anti-semitism, regardless of changed wording. Politics, for me at least, is a different matter. I would sing a song calling for gun control to a group of NRA members in a hot minute. Is there a difference in these scenarios? There is for me ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 06:49 PM

So, what's wrong with THE WAYS OF MAN?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 06:48 PM

On "Shake a Tailfeather," Taj Mahal includes "Shortnin' Bread." I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it, but from him it works.

Julius Lester and Jerry Pinkney did a reworking of *Little Black Sambo* called *Sam and the Tigers* in order to rescue a very good story from the unfortunate original pictures. Not everybody is happy with it, but I and others are.

My sentiments on this issue are on an old thread somewhere.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: bunkerhill
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 06:10 PM

Bowdler is not remembered well elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 04:48 PM

Hmmm... when I saw the thread title, I thought it might have to do with the skinhead bands that play at "white power" rallies. Instead, this stuff. Phooey.

As a number of posts have said, change your own performance if you must, or don't do it at all. And be honest about why. But to suggest that such material should be deleted entirely is, I think, quite wrong.

As Santayana wrote: "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". As are those who wish to revise the past.

Sanitize this stuff? Phooey rats. Give me the truth, warts and all!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 04:35 PM

I think you will find very few songs in the database (and in our history) that are racist in their essence. Those are the ones we have to be very careful about. There are many others that contain racist terms and concepts, but the songs themselves are not essentially racist - those are the ones we can salvage with a little doctoring-up.
We have to use a lot of good taste when we "doctor" a song. I think the way Art Thieme handled "Master of the Sheepfold" is a prime example. He did an excellent job, if I may say so.
Dealing with gender issues in songs is a newer problem, and fixing songs for gender problems can get really clumsy. The above example from "Mary Ellen Carter" isn't a glaring problem, so I think it can be left alone. "The Ways of Man" (Gordon Bok, 1977) and "Faith of Man" (Bill Staines, 1986) are absolutely wonderful songs written not very long ago, but it's a little "iffy" to perform them for certain audiences nowadays - I can't imagine how I could change them and still make them work.
I might give a word of advice on how to change wording to deal with gender issues - read the Bible. The New Revised Standard Version, completed in 1989, did a very nice, subtle job of removing masculine language from the 1952 Revised Standard Version.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 04:34 PM

Let me politely add my two cents.

There should be an old proverb that says,

You cannot make the wolf disappear by wiping away his footprints.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Chet W.
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 04:19 PM

During the seemingly lamented Cold War, jazz musicians behind the Iron Curtain were at first censored for doing American music, but when they got across the idea that it was the music of the oppressed American workers, they were given a lot more freedom to play. They often had to change the titles, usually to something like "The Worker's Struggle" instead of "Sophisticated Lady", but it allowed them to keep playing.

Seems like everybody don't like somebody, Chet

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: kendall
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 03:11 PM

I have two short comments. First, the definition of manners is simply the art of making others comfortable, and not making them UNcomfortable. Singing such racist songs in public will make many people uncomfortable.
Now, they do have historical value, so, maybe we should put them in a museum like we do old cars. Nice to look at and remember, but pretty uncomfortable to use.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Allan C.
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 02:45 PM

M. Ted, you just reminded me of the time on the Andy Williams variety show when he and Lou Rawls did a duet of "Chattanooga Choo-Choo". They got around the potential problem with the lyrics by having Lou lead off. It was great!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: folk1234
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 02:43 PM

Another Mudcat Classic! Articulate, learned, and very polite discussion about a topic as old as traditional music and history itself.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Ole Bull
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 01:40 PM

Offense is in the eye of the beholder.

The epithet "Racist" is the most effective (and fasionable) means of censorship today. And no other form of censorship is so well tolerated. Furthermore the label is freely applied to a point that is usually has nothing to do with whether one is indeed racist or not! To me it's getting to be like hearing "RED".

My objective study of pre-Civil War music was quite a surprise to find how our musical history is so stereotyped as being stereotyped. I love to find the open mind like the one above who finds "Old Uncle Ned" to be a beautifull loving tune and does not acuse uglyness.

So, who is offended now by the word nigger? Not blacks. My kids bring home more nigger content by modern urban musicians than in the archives of Brown and Duke University combined. Oh! Excuse me. You have to be white, and perhaps male to be offensive(or not around to defend yourself).

And what will those one hundred years in the future find sinfully offensive about the things we all do and accept today?? Like maybe forsaking our kids so we can all make more money and be "fullfilled"? I can think of a few things......

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 01:27 PM

How do people feel about, "Mammy"? As an unappologetic Al Jolson fan, I love this song--learned it as a child--and still sing it(but only when I play for older audiences, who haven't a clue that there could be anything wrong with it)

There are a whole lot of old songs that are full of Minstrel Show characters and images, and that express the full range of offensive minstrel show cliches, from shuffling to beatin' your feet in the Missisippi mud-- any song that mentions Mandy or Alexander or Rufus, Sammy, or Chattanooga, alludes to this--

"Pardon me, Boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo-Choo? Track Twenty Nine, Boy, you can give me a shine!" is, in addition to being an archetype of the hip swing culture of the forties, is also a big time allusion to racist stereotypes--

What do we do?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: sophocleese
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 01:06 PM

"Rise again, Rise again, that her name not be lost da da dee dee de dum......."

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:29 PM

Well you could sing "Rise again...like a steeple!
Or perhaps "Rise like yeast......the knowledge of the North East. Sorry.
Rick

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:31 AM

"...Where it will not alter the story I will change uncomfortable words but if I can't change it and still don't feel comfortable singing it I don't sing it."

Tell me...Do you sing "..Rise again, Rise again, that her name not be lost to the knowledge of people...?" Or do you feel that the song should be thrown out..?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Ron
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:20 AM

While I would question why someone would sing some of these racist songs, I agree with those who feel they should be in the archive - especially those produced by oppressed minorities as these songs decpict how they saw life in their own experience. We must never forget the circumstances that would produce some of that music.

At the same time, an ongoing open discussion will be the most effective way to root out racism and make the world better for all - both the oppressed and the oppressors. I think this conversation in itself makes the strongest argument for not doing the equivalent of burning books. Be far more afraid of censorship than ignorance.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:16 AM

When I sang/recorded "Master Of The Sheepfold" it was without the "original" dialect that Sarah Pratt MacLean Greene (1856-1935) used in her poem called "De Sheepfol'". I feel her poem is most probably the origin of this song. It was printed in Sing Out! (in a column) as "De Massa Ob De Sheepfol'". My changing the song's dialect had nothing to do with political correctness. It was simply my gut wisdom that told me that this dialect was offensive, not only to me, but to so very many people--white as well as black. Our hateful modern times demanded that I morph it some. I, and others, strive mightily to leave the sad trappings of slavery and it's aftermath (which we are STILL going through) behind us. I do this because, as recent events have stressed to me/us, insane baggage from that era is present here and now. It is with those strivings and sensibilities in mind that I changed history (NOT) and the song. Hell, even Jean Luc Piccard changed history when it didn't interfere (too much) with his prime directive.

And, I feel, it made a better song that promoted inclusiveness instead of ostricism, tolerance of difference instead of ethnic cleansing and live-and-let-live instead of a "kill the pig" (Lord Of The Flies) mentality.

No, just calling something "politically correct" in order to discredit a heartfelt logical stand arrived at by much deliberationn is a Limbaughian technique that would've made the despots of our century grin, not spin, in their gaves.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: sophocleese
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:10 AM

I used to work in a book store. Near the till was the section for pyschology and self help and when business was slack I'd read a little. If the book referred to everybody, male and female, as 'man' I'd check the publication date. If it was written more than fifteen years earlier I'd continue reading and not be offended by the use of "man" to describe me. If it had been written any later than that I put it back down, by that time the issue of exclusive language had been around long enough for even insensitive people to be aware of it and alter their writing to take it into account. I use a similar approach with songs. Where it will not alter the story I will change uncomfortable words but if I can't change it and still don't feel comfortable singing it I don't sing it.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Paul S
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:46 AM

I have no objections whatsoever to changing lyrics to fit my needs. If you want to sing a good old song, but not risk offending yourself and others, go ahead and change what you need.

Yes, songs can tell us a great deal about our past, and be great reminders, and instruments of change. But ... they can also, just be songs.

What's it really matter if I change the meaning or message of a song. There are a lot of archivists and revivalists out there to keep the stories alive; when you hear me sing a song, it's just for your entertainment.

These songs must also be preserved in their original state, however. We can't expunge our sins of the past by purging all offensive material from that era.

Paul

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:12 AM

I have an acquaintance who sings at a session here in Dallas. He occasionally sings a beautiful song about an old man. The singer says lovingly how this tired old man, who once had a life filled with love and adventure has grown very old and frail. The old man can now still enjoy his corn bread, but has few pleasures left ... soon the old man will pass on to the place "where good niggers go." I can't recall all the words now, but there are lines in the song that make me believe the singer is a white person - a person from a different culture. To hear the song you would never suspect anything but love and respect existed between the singer and the old man. To hear the words with our 1990's ears, we find the conotation and the sentiment difficult to reconcile - at first.

Judge the song by its intent, or its sentiment - not by its choice of words. Sing the song where it can appreciated in that light, or don't sing it.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:10 AM

Comrade Stalin and his unending line of cronies (he used to bump them off when he felt himself getting comfortable with them) were very good at changing history. On the other side of the spectrum, Hitler and his crew (some of whom got bumped off as well) used to burn books they found objectionable.

I recently spent a day at Brown University and I found a songster with virulently anti-Irish content from the time when Catholic churches in America resembled the stockade forts we associate with the Old West. I copied the song because it showed me exactly how base this type of material is. Without the document, there is no way to know that. This is why they have not torn down the concentration camps. I hope you appreciate that.

When we see people singing these songs with waxy-eyed smiles on their faces, then it's time to get upset!

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Allan C.
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:03 AM

But then there are songs which, in order to "cleanse" them, would lose any semblance of meaning (or so some would have us believe). Virginia just went through this debate over it's Official State Song, "Carry Me Back To Old Virginia". For those who aren't familiar with the song, it contains "There's where I labored so hard for old massa" and quite a few other lines which were said to be objectionable and reminded some folks of things they felt should not be brought to mind. So, after failed attempts to rewrite the song, it was ultimately decided to dump the song entirely and solicit candidates for a new State Song. Even Jimmy Dean and his wife had an entry. To be honest, I heard so many entries that I never discovered which of them actually became the new musical icon for the state. And, to be honest, I really don't care. I was one who thought that the original could have been altered to reflect the times.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Dani
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 08:19 AM

As a non-Christian gospel-music-loving fool, I can sympathize with your struggle. If a song makes you squirm to sing it, don't do it. If it can be changed a little to fit, I echo the sentiments above - do what you can, and be honest about what you've done.

Just as it doesn't do to allow the original historical context of a song to be lost, so it does not do to let a good song (or tune) die because we're afraid to let down the hem a bit to fit where we've grown.

Dani

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 03:35 AM

Agatha Christie's "Ten Little Indians" was originally, "Ten Little Niggers", since that was the text of the original verse--times demanded a more acceptable version, though I would think that Indians are sensitive about that sort of thing now as well--

"Shortin' Bread" dates back, as I understand it, to the 1840's at least, and was written and performed by blacks--that someone would advocate that such a venerable musical relic be bannished because it once contained objectionable words is, to me, objeactionable--

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From:
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:14 AM

g is refering to the original poster's objectiion to a single song when there hundreds that could be targeted.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 11:38 PM

Chet, I thought I was the only sentimental sucker who sometimes leaves out "but love grows older and love grows colder, and fades away like mornin' dew"!
Rick

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 11:30 PM

Gargoyle who and what are you talking about? If you are referring to Hog-Eye Man reread my post again. I see nothing on this thread that in anyway denies the content of the songs within the Digitrad.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From:
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 11:17 PM

When this site gets entirely politically correct, there will be no one here for you to talk to.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: _gargoyle
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 11:12 PM

Only one reference to "nigger!"?????????????

Hell man... you are doin' somting rong, get your ass in gear!

Only one reference to "nigger!"?????????????

A simple search gives me "19" citations for "the N-word" and another 29 for "Jew."

You need to expand your search parameters - we are all "adults" here....try, "black" "kike" "coon" "wop" "dago" "beaner" "spick" "shiny" "greaser" "wetback" "honky" "hunky" "slant eyes" "chink" "jap" "kraut" "rusky" "dutch" "piker" "limey" and "mick."

Folk music is a non-discrimination, denigrator it does not care about your sex, age, color, religous belief or political affiliation, in addition sexual harassment is considered "fair-territory."

Please stick to the Disney Sites - they are family rated...or crank up the filters on the "Net Nanny."

Besides, I sorely resent your hedging in on the territory (and doing it poorly) which I have considered my exclusive domain for close to a year. (AKA resident "Schmoo" a-la "Al Capp's comics."

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Bruce O.
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 10:45 PM

Bear in mind when you read Henry Clay Work's songs where his sympathies were. He was pro-black and his father was a well known Abolitionist.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 99 - 10:35 PM

I learned the song "Shortnin' Bread" when I was little, and I always thought it was a fine song, and still do:

Two little children, lyin in bed
One of them sick, and the other most dead
Called for the doctor, and the doctor he said
"Feed them children shortnin' bread.

Mammy's little baby loves shortnin', shortnin'
Mammy's little baby loves shortnin' bread.

Recently, I read somewhere that this song was a racist song, and it was a disgrace that people still sing it. I also learned that the original version sings of "two little niggers" and uses a heavier dialect and some verses that would be objectionable. Nonetheless, the song I learned was a good one, which makes me sing that a little light cleaning up could save some pretty good songs. I suppose some will still object, but I prefer to err on the side of having a good time with the music and not cleansing away too much of our past.
-Joe Offer-