BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,jeepday
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:50 PM

I have not the faintest clue what any of you are talking about

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:40 PM

It seems to me that most of the problems mentioned here are instances of individual, even narrowly institutionalized, failings.

They aren't faults of "the language," which for at least 250 years is presumed to be continually "decaying" and being "corrupted."

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:32 PM

Gnu, I feel that I know you well enough to go beyond my mere expression of sympathy. Is the other person you speak of your mother?

I think she is trying to keep from imposing on you by asking for something specific, while you are trying to get a specific answer from her. The result is that you are driving one another up a wall.

I suggest you start by letting her know what you would like to do. (We can assume that you are not going to offer her something she hates) For example:

1. I was thinking of having scallops tonight. Would you like that?

2. I can make hamburgers or macaroni tonight. Which would you like?

3. I'm in the mood for spaghetti tonight. What do you thinK?

4. I need to clear out leftovers. Would you like the scallops or the roast duck Toulouisienne?

How does that sound, Gnu?

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:16 AM

Not so much a Scouse accent Jim, (we'd have to count the knives and forks in the canteen each night if we'd employed a scouser..)

More of aping accents found in Australian soap operas to what I can see. Apparently, some American soaps such as friends are culprits for it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:06 AM

"...the world is full of delightful cultural corners each of which has its own eddies and currents of how to communicate well. To navigate the world, then, requires a certain willingness to pay attention and receive the picture sent to you as it was meant, not as you think it should be."

Sure Amos... and if I visit someone in their personal surroundings, I make every effort to grasp nuances and absorb their flavors of language; but when I go to the grocery store, it bothers me to find employees who cannot answer a simple question in coherent, comprehensible ways.
(Trying to use a self-checkout lane last year and the machine had defeated me..up comes a 'helper' who said "Na flrty bam goozen...je glom dizen"...."Huh?", says I... "Delem sturegie verusl" says she, and pushes all the right buttons. She knew what to do, but I have no idea what she said. ANYONE in that position needs to be able to handle basic English)

Best example of my concern:
Ebonics in Chicago schools

I heard a black educator on the radio once defending Ebonics. SHE spoke well and could switch back & forth, but was NOT, as far as I could tell, suggesting that kids needed to emulate her.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Weasel
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:44 AM

An ex girlfriend used to encourage the start of a row by giving driving directions from the map such as "Here, here, on this side, now over there" all without raising a hand from the map. I yelled, "I don't know where you mean" to which the usual response was, "You should have turned there." We only lasted 14 years then it got too much for me.

Weasel

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:19 AM

On accents, my father who is Norwich can refer to the London twang in some city people as "bastard cockney".

People can have trouble placing me. I was born in Shrewsbury, moved to N Wales when I was about 7. Tunbridge Wells when I was early teens. I think I'm a bit of a mixture.

On endings, people from Bangor (N Wales) can be referred to as "Bangor Ayes" as "Aye" can be added to the end of sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 12 May 15 - 07:39 AM

I love it that people can learn to speak a foreign language fluently in a couple of years yet couples who have lived together for forty years still don't understand each other.
Remarkable but typical.

Leaving a party, offering lifts to others

My brother : Are we ready to go? Can we give some lifts?
His wife : Can we take some people?
My brother :Yes
His wife :Well there's a lot of stuff on the back seat. Is there space?
My brother :Yes, there will be space. I'll go and put what I can in the boot. ..... OK, there is room for three, if they don't mind squeezing up.
His wife :(coming back with two people) OK, lets go.
My brother :Doesn't anyone else want a lift?
His wife :You said we didn't have space.
My brother :We've got room for three.
His wife :Yes. You driving, plus me, Angela and Barbara.
My brother :I said we can give a lift to three.
His wife :But the back seat is full of stuff.
My brother :I've put it in the boot.
His wife :How could it all fit in the boot?
My brother :The back seat is clear. We can take me, you, plus three more.
His wife :Well I thought you meant three including me.
My brother :We can take me, you, plus three more.
His wife :Three people on the back seat?
My brother :Yes.
... there was more.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 12 May 15 - 07:07 AM

:) Gnu, you have my sympathy too, at the time conversations like that make me want to tear my hair out
but my translation, in hindsight, might be

I'd like to cook whatever you want. I have almost anything available in my kitchen. You could look at the choices I typed out for you (months ago).
What are you having?(it would be nice to sit and eat the same thing together while we have a nice relaxed conversation)

I hadn't really thought about it. I'd like to know what you want.
What do you feel like cooking? (Well you haven't given me much time to think about it either. I'm happy with you just coming round and being here)
Whatever you would like.   
You decide.(something simple please. If you don't know a specific thing you'd enjoy cooking why do you expect me to know a specific thing I'd enjoy eating? )

Okay... I'll take out scallops for you.
Are you having scallops?(I feel patronised and awkward when the plates are different. And now you've mentioned scallops... actually I'm fairly sure I don't fancy them today )

No. I am going to have soup.
Well, I don't want you to cook scallops just for me.(I'd like to sit and have soup with you)

It's no problem. I would enjoy cooking scallops for you.
PAUSE................
No. I have things in my freezer I should use up. I was planning to have the Swedish Meatballs you cooked last weeks. I froze what I couldn't eat and I really should use them up because I don't want to keep them in the freezer too long. If I keep them in the freezer too long they lose their taste.....(No, now I don't fancy scallops. OK, I'll make a damned decision for you. The only food that comes to mind is the meatballs in the freezer. I'd better make up some good reason for choosing them)

..... two minutes later....   Okay, no problem.   I hang up the phone and fucking scream.
- silence (I'd just like like to see them. Maybe we could have a glass of wine with the meatballs and chill out a while.
Maybe I would have enjoyed scallops. I'll make a note and ask for them next time.)
////////////////////////////////////////
I'm coming round later and I wondered if you had anything in mind you'd like to eat. I wondered about a little bowl of soup I've already cooked and need to use up .......and then scallops cooked that way you like. But if you think of something different you fancy call me back in the next 30minutes -Oh, there might be something else on that list I left you.
That'd be lovely dear. I only really get an appetite once I smell your lovely cooking.(I only really get an appetite once I smell your lovely cooking... and anyway when I try to read that list at this time of day my eyes glaze over and I feel stressed)

Then give yourself a lovely big bowl of soup, a little plate of scallops & leave what you can't manage in the fridge/freezer.

Hmmm, easy in theory. I know reality always ends up different from my dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:56 AM

"Some possibly excellent people have failed to get jobs"
Probably why Liverpool people, particularly women, find it difficult to get work - they all turn up the last couple of words at the end of their sentences - an idiosyncrasy of Scouse speech - curls up Pat when my sister rings and says, ""is our jimmy there" (up at the end of the line)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:44 AM

Some possibly excellent people have failed to get jobs* because during the interview, they go up at the end of sentences, turning every bloody statement into a question that requires your nod of agreement.

*when I have been conducting the interview.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:57 AM

"Whether spoken English is any uglier than it used to be is extremely dubious."
Not to my mind, it hasn't
Dialect, accent and vernculr speech have a beauty of their own - still do, where they are still surviving.
The established pronunciation of the language language itself has an overall beauty which has apparently now been abandoned by the media - missing word-endings (brawban instead of broadband is fairly typical of what's happening) - glottal stops - have broken the flow of speech.
"The dialogue in Dickens can be pretty unattractive."
Matter of opinion - Dickens was not a dialect speaker anyway - he was reproducing what he heard.
Of course not all dialects ate attractive to everybody (I detest Birmingham accents), but they are naturally arrived at and are products of the areas they came from.
I have an odd hybrid Liverpool/Manchester/London accent - naturally arrivd at.
That is not what is happening to the language today.
There is a great deal of difference between vernacular speech and simply lazy speech
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:27 AM

Gnu, you have my sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:25 AM

Totally aside from the meatless and colorless language of corporate efficiency, the world is full of delightful cultural corners each of which has its own eddies and currents of how to communicate well. To navigate the world, then, requires a certain willingness to pay attention and receive the picture sent to you as it was meant, not as you think it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:21 PM

What Amos said... if you take time to process & parse his words.

If one immerses one's self in cant, jargon, slang & buzzwords most of the time, communication may soon be limited to those who also speak your _sub language.

It's fine to trade in-group chat with others who share your sub-culture, but if you cannot shift into 'basic' accepted standards when applying for a job or explaining what you do, don't be surprised if the jobs go to others and a fair % of folks ignore you.... yaknowhatimean?

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:46 PM

I recall a frustrating conversation I once had at work. I was looking for a set of recent statistics from an economist co-worker.

She said, "You have a choice. If you can wait until tomorrow, I can print out a very accurate set of computer-generatd statistics. Or, if you need a less detailed set, I can generate one in a couple of hours".

I was in a rush and I indicated the latter would be fine.

Her response puzzled me. She said, "I am sorry, I don't have the time to do that today".

My response was something like, "why did you offer me a choice, when one of them was not available?" I don't recall getting a satisfactory answer to my question, and ordered the computer generated set and walked away somewhat confused, thinking wtf?

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:06 PM

> spoken language has gradually become ugly

I think you mean that written language became increasingly elegant. The general language of the educated followed suit. For nearly a century informality, conciseness, and clarity have become more greatly valued than elegance in writing.

Whether spoken English is any uglier than it used to be is extremely dubious. It would imply that the teeming millions have somehow become cruder over the centuries. Another dubious proposition. Why would they? (The Roman poet Catullus wrote beautifully crafted verses whose images were often so obscene that forthright English translations didn't appear till the 1960s; the same goes for the satirist Juvenal. The Greek Archilochos of the 7th century BC had to wait even longer.)

The dialogue in Dickens can be pretty unattractive. And imagine what it was like when the grammatical endings began falling off of Old English words in the early Middle Ages.

What's more, a case can be made that the fading of regional dialects is more beneficial than not. Strong differences in language tend to isolate communities from each other, not bring people together.

I don't know about the situation elsewhere, but it was predicted almost a century ago that radio (and later talkies and TV) would eliminate dialect differences in America within a generation. They're still going strong, however, even if much rural vocabulary along with certain sounds (like the classic NYC diphthong in "bird") are fading from use.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: gnu
Date: 11 May 15 - 05:12 PM

Well, my OP was the source of my rant. Allow me to demonstrate more clearly.

What would you like me to cook for supper?
What were you thinking?
I'd like to cook whatever you want. I have almost anything available in my kitchen. You could look at the choices I typed out for you (months ago).
What are you having?
I hadn't really thought about it. I'd like to know what you want.
What do you feel like cooking?
Whatever you would like.
You decide.
Okay... I'll take out scallops for you.
Are you having scallops?
No. I am going to have soup.
Well, I don't want you to cook scallops just for me.
It's no problem. I would enjoy cooking scallops for you.
PAUSE................
No. I have things in my freezer I should use up. I was planning to have the Swedish Meatballs you cooked last weeks. I froze what I couldn't eat and I really should use them up because I don't want to keep them in the freezer too long. If I keep them in the freezer too long they lose their taste........... two minutes later....
Okay, no problem.
I hang up the phone and fucking scream.

Can I get anything for you?
Are you going out?
I might.
Where are you going?
Out.
When?
(And this shit can go on for five minutes with NO answer!)

AGGGGHHHHH!

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 15 - 01:40 PM

"If you can make yourself understood, then you are communicating."
The prime function of speech and language is, of course, to communicate, but if that was all it was, we may as well just speak in Textmessagese - eventually everybody would catch on and understand.
It really is more than that - spoken language has gradually become ugly - even in the mouths of broadcasters - the flow and poetry of communication is disappering - a Shakespeare or Thomas Woolfe, or Cervantes or Hugo, or Tolstoy..... really wouldn't stand a chance in today's world.
Even our dialects and vernacular is disappearing.... "where are the snows of yesteryear?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 15 - 01:29 PM

The answer to the question is cumulative alteration which gradually becomes so automatic that the individual can't receive a straight communication or formulate a straight answer.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 May 15 - 01:11 PM

If you can make yourself understood, then you are communicating. How you do it, if you confine yourself to social norms or not, that is manners.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:23 PM

"...why don't people speak properly?"

Well, there are various forms of 'proper', but infinite varieties of IMproper.

This internet thing has allowed improper to breed & multiply, fueled by, u kno... shrt cuts and new jargon which is added constantly.

'Proper' is for pedants, we are told 'cause yaknowhadImsayin...

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 15 - 08:04 AM

Directions have always been fun here. My father has never known his left from his right and as a child, I've known family rows start over "you should have known I meant left when I said right..." We had many an enjoyable trip, especially when they had the commer camper van which eg. took us to Skye but they were rarely without "navigational problems".

I've not driven in a few years but have had problems with my mother in the past. She likes to point and I don't seem to see things in the driving seat the way she does in the passenger seat. I find "turn left" or "get in the middle lane" easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:51 AM

I used to have an 80+ years old grandfather-in-law.
WhenI was driving him anywhere his directions included such helpful gems as "Just turn on by here, lad!" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:32 AM

Idleness, fashion, slumcult.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 May 15 - 11:57 PM

Oh, I've forgotten about my own communication problem. I can get too absorbed with things (maybe I'm playing at programming, maybe I'm falling out with someone over here..) and I may get asked a question in the middle of it.

I'm   pretty good at giving a "Yes" or "No" without taking in what I've been asked. I just seem to give the response that I feel will satisfy the other party.

It's a sort of of "autopilot" I suppose, until you   get told "you had agreed you would do that.. " Trouble is, I probably had agreed...

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 10 May 15 - 11:15 PM

My husband retired recently. He doesn't seem to realize how complicated it can be to run a household, for instance that if I look like I'm just standing in front of the stove, I am turning fried chicken, watching for water to boil, mentally going through vegetable choices and worrying about my mother.

So he steps into the kitchen and starts a sentence without bothering to let me know he's there or to signal that he's going to talk and without putting any energy into the first few words. It's

mumble mumble mumble the front door. or
mumble mumble mumble what the heck our checking account.

I have come up with the formula "What about the front door?" etc so he knows to repeat it all.

I've explained to him what the problem is, but it doesn't seem to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 May 15 - 10:04 PM

I have communication problems at home. Pip's favourites include "it's on the table". There's are at least half a dozen tables to choose from but further enquiry might lead to something like "it's there".

I've long given up on trying to ask for help in positioning something. As far as I can see with say a picture frame, I could move it up/down/to the left or right or perhaps rotate a bit but when every physcal move and a "you   want it this way?" gets a screaming "NO" and you've exhausted every move that you think is possible, you sort of get defeated.

Dad/ Peter can also be difficult but that's an after effect of a stroke. I've learned the best way when he's stressed and say can't get on to ebay on the laptop is just to say (and follow up with) something like "OK, I'll come and have a look in a minute or two). He's actually very good at using the thing and we have few problems but when something does go wrong for him, I genuinely can not understand his attempt at a description of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: gnu
Date: 10 May 15 - 10:03 PM

Ed... that is speaking properly. froggy... I got nuthin... sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: frogprince
Date: 10 May 15 - 09:34 PM

Some years back, after listening to a bunch of patriotic jingoism, I came up with "What this country needs is more men with two-fisted guts on their shoulders". Our niece was married to a green beret who was as macho-obsessed as anyone I've met. I tried that on him and he just nodded and said "You got that right".

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:44 PM

""Two monologues do not make a dialogue.""
Jeff Daly

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: olddude
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:42 PM

Lol yup you do gnu

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:28 PM

In Croydon, the accent of the younger generation wiv their bruvaaaaaaaaaaar and sistaaaaaaaaaaaar, and Sainsbreeeeeeeeeeeeeze is just beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: gnu
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:46 PM

No, Dan, you can't. We Canucks have gun laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: olddude
Date: 10 May 15 - 02:53 PM

Sales go right through the roof with it. I can loan it to ya gnuser :)

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: olddude
Date: 10 May 15 - 02:52 PM

I just bring out my glock people all understand me all the time. Universal communication device Lol

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Thompson
Date: 10 May 15 - 02:42 PM

I kind of like the Fake-Jamaic accent that's taking hold in the young of England. I also like the cut-glass English of 1950s films, and real heartland Cockney. A favourite sequence in a film is the one where Sting (I think it is) speaks to his film son in Cockney criminal slang in Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: gnu
Date: 10 May 15 - 01:46 PM

Unrelated to the OP but it struck me funny. Email...

u still have the couch (Received at 3AM today.)
Yes. (5AM)
how much u want (8AM)
The price in the ad is $100. (8:01 AM)
k (11AM. No further communication.)

Anybody else try to sell stuff on the net? I am using Kijiji. In the past week, $555... not bad but the weird ones, like the ones that want to come to my house at around 11PM, kinda scare me.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 May 15 - 01:28 PM

Irregardlessly, I did never would have thunk it 'twas dat way, dude.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Nick
Date: 10 May 15 - 01:24 PM

Send the questions automatically when you are asleep and gain that wasted time back

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 10 May 15 - 01:05 PM

Bottom line at the end of the day you can't say it no clearer then that 24/7.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 May 15 - 12:53 PM

Like I said, communication is one of them two-way streets. At this point in time you people got to get good at it or no information can't be conveyed to each other. If you don't you won't be good at telling other people anything irregardless of if you try.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: olddude
Date: 10 May 15 - 11:51 AM

Lol its the cnuks fault ain't it

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 15 - 11:14 AM

Mr Fly, may I draw your attention to the fact that the correct spelling is 'narmean'.
Honestly, this country is going to hell in a hand cart...grumble, grumble.....tsk, tsk......

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:48 AM

The Liverpool equivalent of "How now, brown cow" used to be "Tarra Teresa, see yer Thersdy"
Norra lorra people know that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 15 - 05:44 AM

Ye wo whacker?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:51 AM

Yeh, it's well good, innit Jim? Natameen?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:38 AM

Thought this was going to be about the godawful Estuary English that is turning the language ugly with its glottal stops and missing word-endings - now that really would provoke a rant as far as I'm concerned.
Took me ages to work out that "brawban" was a telecommunications signalling method and not a restriction approved of by the Scots!!
Even the feckin' B.B.C. are at it.
Lord Reith must be doing somersaults in his grave!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 10 May 15 - 02:19 AM

Cuz they ain't got a click, let alone a clue, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Rant... why don't people speak properly?
From: olddude
Date: 09 May 15 - 09:18 PM

I think it is cause no one can understand you cnucks Lol