BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:54 AM

When I read the title of the Italian daily La Repubblica, "Gaza, more than 300 Holocaust survivors against Israel", I thought, wow!

Sorry, the survivors were not "more than 300, not even "300". There were 20. The others were children or grandchildren or distant relatives of survivors.

Yet, the story has swept the media all over the world. Who is behind the campaign which appeared in a full page ad in the New York Times? Do they believe Jews are supposed to continue to be victims?

The initiative was sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, an organization openly hostile to Israel.

Hajo Meyer, the first signatory on the list, is a well-known Dutch militant who just passed away, the author of a book called "The End of Judaism", in which he explains, like a student of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, that Zionism and Judaism are incompatible. Meyer compares Israel to Nazi Germany ("there are many similarities", he wrote). Meyer did not hesitate to appear on Iranian television, Press TV, the voice of the ayatollahs in the world, the same people who condemn Israel to disappear from the map.


What's better than the vulgarization of the Holocaust by a grandchld of survivors who directs a center of "Middle East Studies"?
The appeal is signed by Hedy Epstein, one of the most famous faces of the Freedom flottillas launched in solidarity with Hamas. She even flew to Cairo last month to participate in the demonstrations against Israel. She has recently embarked on a hunger strike for Gaza. Epstein is part of the Free Gaza Movement, whose founder Greta Berlin said: "The Zionists organized the concentration camps to kill millions of innocent Jews".

Meet the "Holocaust Survivors Against Israel"

Note the last line in the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:42 AM

"I have been called antisemetic, a fucking disgrace, "
Then respond to what the Holocaust survivors say - respond to the evidence put up over and over again
If you do not, you are defending the Israeli regime and not The Jewish people.
The Israelis now have a knee-jerk reaction of dismissing every criticism as being "Antisemitic - which is an antisemitic claim by definition.
I'm not sure if you are one of those who has made the accusation against me or those who agree with me - but that is Antisemitic - it is Antisemitic by definition to associate The Jewish people as a whole with the actions of the Israeli state - if that is what yopu have done, that is what you are.
To take only the word of Isreali right wing politicians and deliberately ignore what Jews who criticise what those politicians do is anti-Semitic - especially when a large number of them are either Holocaust survivors or their relatives.
By doing so, you are refusing to accept the lessons of The Holocaust.
The first time I heard the term "never again, in relation to what was happening to The Palestinians not to anybody, was from the mother of someone I was once to marry" - she and a few of her family survived the camps and had learned the lesson.
You want to sling your accusations about - get used to having them slug back at you - I have.
I'll put this up again because it represents everything I have believed about what's happening in Israel today.
You want to dispute it, feel free; you want to ignore it - shame on you and everybody like you.
It has been a cowardly trait of people like Bearded Bruce to skulkk behind the six million who died in the camps - at least have the common deceny to read and respond to what they say.
That goes for every last three/four, however many of you there are.
Full text of letter:
"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.
"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:23 AM

Proverb for Mudcatters


Too many guests spoil the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

Ah, just look at the quality of the last three Guest posts. The Guest who claims that he remains anonymous because he'd rather like us to focus more on the content of his posts rather than the poster. Go on, read them. He's a good laugh, isn't he?

QED!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM

At least one person was wounded in a stabbing attack at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem on Saturday afternoon.

The condition of the victim was not immediately clear.

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM

I have been called antisemetic, a fucking disgrace, an islamophobe, a fantasist and worse, and you don't think I have cause to complain. None of the people you mention are my colleagues, they just happen to disagree with Jim. As for Akenaton, he has not posted much to this thread, so I don't know why you mention him. Anonymous guests who disagree with Jim are not my allies either.
I know Jim requires no defending by you... and of course you agree with him on somethings, that is clear from your posts here Steve. I am simply stating, at the risk of being called a dweller in fantasyland, that the Israel I know bears no resemblance to the Israel Jim describes. Again, if you agree with his views, that is your conclusion based on what evidence he has supplied. I do not agree with him because he is irrational in his obsession, there is a name for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM

Jim requires no defending by me. If I say I agree with what he says on particular topics, that is not defending. He does not defend me either and I wouldn't expect him to, neither do we exchange messages of support or of anything at all for that matter. The point I made is that he supplies abundant information and links, which you are at liberty to counter if you wish. Your colleagues Teribus, Keith and akenaton, not to speak of our anonymous Guest (who once called me a Jew-hater) are far less productive of facts on this topic than Jim and they all name-call. I don't think you have any cause to complain.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM

Have I suggested that my post was directed to you and not Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM

Have I suggested anywhere that the holocaust survivor comments were fake ? No, I have not. Another bit of your nonsense.
Reply, What am I to reply to Jim..you cannot describe red to the colour blind !

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:38 AM

"I have merely pointed out that there are people posting here who supply facts, facts which Jim ignores"
What facts?
"Another ridiculous claim!"
Are you suggesting that the Holcaust Survivors statement was a fake?
Please break the habit of a lifetime and reply
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:31 AM

Guest, how can you condemn someone if you are not prepared to at least read what they post.
Jim provided a link LINK that was pertinent to the thread.

These are not Jim's words they are the words of 327 survivors (or descendants of) of the holocaust created by Nazi Germany, are you to condemn them too?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:25 AM

I have merely pointed out that there are people posting here who supply facts, facts which Jim ignores. If you wish to"defend" Jims hateful rants, that is, as I said, Your business.
As for "striking a balance here", how, tell me, do you strike a balance with Jim Carroll ?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:13 AM

That would be his last four posts now. Dammit, I've lost count. Don't you just hang on every word of his "content?" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

Ah, just look at the quality of the last three Guest posts. The Guest who claims that he remains anonymous because he'd rather like us to focus more on the content of his posts rather than the poster. Go on, read them. He's a good laugh, isn't he?

HiLo, you have attacked name-calling yet again, yet defended Teribus as the supplier of facts while remaining silent on my challenge to you about his name-calling. By any measure, he is one of the worst and most persistent offenders here. Is name-calling by people you agree with acceptable name-calling, then? If I were you, I'd spend a bit more time reviewing my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

The only logical fallacy here is your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM

I can post plenty of links that show that his views, and those of his supporters, are shared by neo Nazis and white supremacists.

Uh hunh. Guess you've never been schooled in logical fallicies, eh Bearded Fred?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM

Here we go with the troll accusation.. Another ridiculous claim!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:33 AM

You just don,t get it, do you Jim ?

Oh he get's it alright, the only thing he doesn't get is that some of us aren't fooled by where he's coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:28 AM

"You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? You have made yet another accusation of antisemetism where none exists!    "
You don't get it - unless you can substantiate your claims rather than nipping in and then pissing off when the goin gets tough, you will continue to be regarded as the troll you are.
Answer the points you disagree with - what are you, a man or an airbed?.

"I have put Israel's case as all you comrades have put the opposite case."
"We didn't do it" isn't a case - it's a denial
If you are saying that is the sum total of Israel's "case" - fair enough - it's all you have offered.
"What he really said,"
What he also said was:
"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out."
Contradiction or confession or what - nobody but you has ever suggested it was a fake.
If they have - who has?
"First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile."

This is the "bile" you refuse to read from Israeli newspaper Haaretz:
Jim Carroll
Holocaust Survivors Condemn Israel for 'Gaza Massacre,' Call for Boycott
In response to Elie Wiesel advertisement comparing Hamas to Nazis, 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants publish New York Times ad accusing Israel of 'ongoing massacre of the Palestinian people.'

Haaretz Aug 23, 2014 5:24 PM
Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel.
According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis.
The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors and sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, accuses Wiesel of "abuse of history" in order to justify Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip:
"…we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."
The letter also blames the United States of aiding Israel in its Gaza operation, and the West in general of protecting Israel from condemnation.
"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads.
The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes.
Full text of letter:
"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.
"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.612072

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM

You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? You have made yet another accusation of antisemetism where none exists!    I disagree with the holocaust survivors   I have not accused them of ranting. as long as people like you rant and make baseless accusations of antisemitism, there will never be any civil discussion on this issue. people holding your views are a huge part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:57 AM

"First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile."
That says what needs to be said - 300+ Holocaust survivers Condem Israel's behavior as "massacres" = bile
As I said - Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:54 AM

"Jim puts up over the top rants. "
Stop waffling and answer the points
If tey are what you claim they are, they are easily exposisable as such by facts
You have put up none - just in and out, in and out - just like the tide.
Show where they are wrong
At least you might have the courtesy to show where the Holocaust survivors are wrong and not "ranters"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:27 AM

"Guest, please read the link on Jim's last post. It's not just a small group of people on here who condemn Israeli state action."

First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile.

Secondly, one can find anything on the internet to support whatever take you have on an issue. I can post plenty of links that show that his views, and those of his supporters, are shared by neo Nazis and white supremacists.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

Is that the side of the "the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state"

No.
I have put Israel's case as all you comrades have put the opposite case.
No fair minded person could object to both sides being heard.

Who says they are "fake" other than you?
Example,
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985."

What he really said,

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:00 AM

Guest, please read the link on Jim's last post. It's not just a small group of people on here who condemn Israeli state action.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:56 AM

Jim puts up over the top rants. His arguments, if one can call those rants rants arguments , consist of venomous bile and hatred. you may call it balanced debate, I would call it by another name.
I am not blindly pro Israel. I am aware of the situation in that country and like many others, I am also aware of what needs to change, not just in Israel, but in the Middle East. To disagree with Jims views does not equate to being an islamophobe or to being a fucking disgrace. It just means that I take exception to his relentless nonsense, and his accusations of antisemitism against those who dare to disagree with him.
I think Keith and Teribus are wasting their time putting facts here, Jim is not interested in facts. He cannot see beyond his hatred. To oppose his views is not bigotry, it is essential or no reasoned debate will ever occur. It would be grand if this subject could be discussed without the usual name calling and drivel. That will not happen as long as There is support for this over the top   Fanatasism continues.
I firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve better both from Israel, and from their own leaders. people who share Jims views will sully that discussion at every turn.
if you wish to support his views Steve. That is your affair, but I cannot support that kind of anti Israel obsession, on any grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:49 AM

"the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state"

Sez you and your nut buddies not non bigoted people.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:44 AM

"There is no consensus among historians of Israel as there is about aspects of WW1."
Christ only knows where WW1 comes into this - still smarting from the kicking you got on the subject, no doubt
Who disputes Benny Morris and on what grounds - didn't he sell his books in "Real bookshops" - can't be that he's dead.
The only criticism of Benny Morris I can find is that he tends to draw his information only from Israeli sources.
The massacres he lists, which you claim don't exist "what massacres?" - or "no massacres" - are recorded events of history - they were petitioned against by Einstein, and have never been denied - until now, by you.
"No we have not, because there is none."
Just answerd that one - the rest have never been tried because any pfficial eaxamination of them has been blocked by U.S. vetoes.
"Those quotes were fake, and you knew they were when you gave them."
Now we're back to "fake" after theme being "he didn't mean that" - you cant't even stick to your own story
Who says they are "fake" other than you?
People have tried to re-interpret them, as you have , but nobody has denied they were ever made - other than you.
Is this the line you are going with now or can we expect something else in the future?
"No, I just put their side of the story."
You are not giving the Israeli's "side of the story" - only that of the Israeli regime.
Report of massacres, of atrocities and persecution, and attemprs to set up an apartheid state, from Haraatz, from Jews for Justice, from Rabbis for Justice, from jews both inside and outside Israel - your line is only peddled from the extreme right-wing politicians who refuse to be tried for their crimes - that's waht I said - you have rejected what all Jew who don't suppore the regime have to say.   
Criticism of the Isreali by Jews has covered: Antisemitism, persecution of Palestinians, same of the Bedouins, the Blockade, massacres, using chemicals against both Palestinians and Bedouins, bringing the reputation of the Jewish people into disrepute, using "antisemitism" as a defence and by doing so, putting the wellbeing of Jews throughout the world at risk, creating an Apartheid state, encouraging Apartheid South Africa to obtain nuclear weapons.... and much much more
Even Holocaust survivors condemned Israel for the Gaza the massacres you claim have never taken place. Holocaust survivors condemn massacres
By brushing aside all these criticisms, you have adopted teh attitude that every Jew who criticisms the Israeli regime is not to be believed or regarded - that reeks of Antisemitism (and something just as sinister) in my book.
You have linked nothing, you have produced no evidence for anything - do so now, or climb down
"Disagreeing with Jim get you accused of antisemitism, "
Read what I put up Lilo and answer - that'll prove me wrong
You drift in and out of these discussions on tee tide like your air-filled namesake.
How about the information on Vanunu - that'd be a good start.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:53 AM

" No, I just put their side of the story"

Is that the side of the

"the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state"

Thought it might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM

he most accepted (by Isreal) Jewish historian of the Israeli State, Benny Morris,

There is no consensus among historians of Israel as there is about aspects of WW1.
There are as many views as there are historians.
You accept without question everything ever said against israel and refuse to accept that there is any other narrative.
There is.

You have been given it (unequivocal evidence of atrocities by Israel.)

No we have not, because there is none.

the admission of David Ben Gurion.

Those quotes were fake, and you knew they were when you gave them.

You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your aim is to defend the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state.

No, I just put their side of the story.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?


Redeem your behaviour and address the evidence you have been given,
None actually!

It never ceases to amaze me how Jims irrational hatred can be defended.

Very few do. Four names? All sharing his extreme politics and feeling they have to support him.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM

But Jim puts detailed arguments. His posts far exceed in content and links anything by you or Keith. Whether you agree with what he says or not (I do, nearly all the time), that is incontrovertible. Instead of sniping at a chap with whom you just happen to disagree why not try to strike a balance here and look also at the posts of one of your allies, Teribus. All sweetness and light there, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM

Disagreeing with Jim get you accused of antisemitism, islamophobia, , being a fucking disgrace, living in a fantasy and so on . the usual tactics employed when their arguments get more and more absurd . It never ceases to amaze me how Jims irrational hatered can be defended.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM

"I am sure that no unequivocal evidence exists for either, "
You have been given it - you refuse to even answer it - it exists and Israel has tried to ascertain that they don't stand trial for it.
You have even denied (without evidence) the most accepted (by Isreal) Jewish historian of the Israeli State, Benny Morris, just as you tried to first deny, then re-write, then both at the same time, the admission of David Ben Gurion.
Your defence of Israel, in attacking the founders of Israel, has now become Antisemitic
You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your aim is to defend the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state.
Redeem your behaviour and address the evidence you have been given, which you could have worked out for yourself - it has always been there
Then you can go back to defending asylum seekers being forced to wear degrading and dangerous identification tags.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:08 AM

Keith. Are you sure? Double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed no atrocities?

No.
I am also not double doggy dare sure that France has committed no atrocities?

I am sure that no unequivocal evidence exists for either, and I am sure that it is reasonable to put both sides of the story.

Re ICC, Lieberman made his strange statement last January.
In December it emerged that Israel has been co-operating with ICC since July, so it was just a bit of nonsense.

Also in December the interim report has not confirmed a single war crime, so how can you all be double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed atrocities?

It is fortunate that some of us are fair and open minded enough to consider both sides of the argument.
Someone who is so prejudiced as to assume guilt in the absence of any evidence might reasonably be called a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM

"The verdict on the Court [ICC] is mixed. It has gone some way to ending impunity and it is certainly an improvement on the
ad hoc tribunals. However it is inevitably a political body rather than a purely legal institution"

Kirsten Ainley
London School of Economics
Published in Cambridge Review of International Affairs, 2011, 24 (3). pp. 309-333

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:36 PM

Keith. Are you sure? Double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed no atrocities?

Really?

Not even the ones where you stated that the schools and hospitals their terrorist militants blew up were "legitimate targets?"

Are you sure that you, Terribulus and that anonymous twat are right and The UN, British Government, EU etc are wrong?

Really?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:42 PM

"Tell us all Jom the countries that do not recognise the power or jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court the two at the top of the list are USSR/Russia and the USA -"
The have both committed atrocities - what's your point?
Are you suggesting that either of them are democracies in the proper sense - nah - even you
Not sure where USSR comes into it anyway - Russia is one of the white hats since it was freed from communism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 01:57 PM

Tell us all Jom the countries that do not recognise the power or jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court the two at the top of the list are USSR/Russia and the USA - take it from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:33 AM

"I just asked you to substantiate the claim Jim."
"So this is another made up fact Jim! - You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true."
Looks like being accused of lying to ma - perhaps I'm getting over-senssitive in my old age
Will you stop lying - it seems to be congenital with you
"Just a bit of bluster I think."
Just a bit of avoiding being brought to International Criminal Court for war crimes, I think
"Which of your many points would you like me to address next Jim,"
Piss off Keith - you haven't addressed any yet and you don't intend to
Just admit you don't and go away - or better still, just go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM

I just asked you to substantiate the claim Jim.
I only accuse you of lying when it is unequivocal.
It appears that the Foreign Minister, Lieberman, threatened to "dismantle" ICC.
I am not clear what power he or the Israeli government has to do such a thing.
He said this over a year ago and nothing has been heard about it since.
Just a bit of bluster I think.

Which of your many points would you like me to address next Jim, if you are not going to challenge the demolition of your point 5?

I hope you see now why it is not practical to address them all at once.
One at a time please.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:11 AM

Brucie seems to be blowing for tugs - maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:00 AM

Israel is opposed to the court, is not a member and has no plans to cooperate with investigators already looking into possible crimes by both sides during fighting. It was furious when the Palestinians announced their application on Dec. 31 and tried to undermine it by lobbying to cut funding to the court.
The demands for closure were made when Palestine was accepted as a member.
It is opposed to the court's existence and has attempted to cut its funding.
As a non-member it has now power to openly demand the closure of the court but it has attempted to gets its friends to neutralise its work bu cutting its funding
"Now, however, in response to the ICC's launch of a preliminary investigation into alleged crimes in Palestinian territory, Israeli government officials have chosen to challenge the very existence of the court. Is Israel's campaign to delegitimate the ICC likely to advance its interests? Based on comparable campaigns by aggrieved states, the answer is almost certainly no."
Israel attempts to challenge existence if ICC
Don't you dare call me a liar - your whole case is based on lies.
"You are so gullible!"
You have had the evidence and produced none yourself

"
Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.

So this is another made up fact Jim!
You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true.

Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so.

Israel denies any and no decent democracy holds the guilty of any such.
Just accusations and propaganda Jim. You are so gullible!

Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?"

No arguments at all.
I just put their side, as you put the opposite side.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

"I chose to respond to your point 5."
You were shot down in flames -

No! You did not challenge a single word."
Ok Jim.
5   In 2015, Israel invaded Gaza, leaving 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children.

Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes.
It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's.

No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity.
They know it is all propaganda, but deluded hate filled people like you suck it all up without a question.

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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM

No excuse of the atrocities done during the invasion the destructuion of occupied hospitals, he unprecedented killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) or women and old people.
"No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity."
Every single human rights group has accused it of these - not interested what self-interested politicians think.
Not done too well so far - no evidence, just denials "Israel didn't do it"
Now how about that rest of number 5?
Jim Carroll

WILL YOU STOP LYING
Now will you piss off - out of shame, if nothing ales
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.

So this is another made up fact Jim!
You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true.

Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so.

Israel denies any and no decent democracy holds the guilty of any such.
Just accusations and propaganda Jim. You are so gullible!

Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?"

No arguments at all.
I just put their side, as you put the opposite side.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

"I chose to respond to your point 5."
You were shot down in flames -

No! You did not challenge a single word.

Here it is again,
Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes.
It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 09:48 AM

"You have yet to substantiate it."
Done so a long time ago - 'ere we go again.
"The Palestinian Authority becomes the 123rd member of the International Criminal Court on Wednesday, a major step that could move its decades-long conflict with Israel into a courtroom.
Israel is opposed to the court, is not a member and has no plans to cooperate with investigators already looking into possible crimes by both sides during fighting. It was furious when the Palestinians announced their application on Dec. 31 and tried to undermine it by lobbying to cut funding to the court."
Reuters
"Yes, because Israel has committed none!"
Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so.
War crimes and atrocities are not a consideration in international politics and never have been.
The U.S. has committed war crimes itself and has assisted terrorist leaders in countries such as Chile to overthrow democratically elected governments - 'Democratic' Mrs T fought like a tigress to keep mass torturer and murderer, Augusto Pinochet from standing trial for his torturing and murder, called British politicians who wanted to put him on trial as "running a police state" and described him as 'her kind of democrat'
The Western world has largely followed suit in turning their backs on War Crimes and acts of terrorism by its friendly allies - Syria being a cse in point (ten years of torture, murder and human rights abuses before it even got a mention), let alone, stop selling riot contol gear, miliraty equipment and chemicals capable of being turned into weapons.
It eventually
"That makes it a rival of most democracies, not a reason for friendship."
You calied it only had oranges - don't be silly
"That is not what I do."
Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?"
"I chose to respond to your point 5."
You were shot down in flames - Israel's friends have helped her never to have faced international law, far from "failing to challenge a word of it", you had the legs cut from under you and are still ignoring the rest of the points - which was the purpose of your one-by-one demands in the first place - delaying tactics.
Go away Keith before you disgrace yourself even further
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:50 AM

Well, Teribus, I suppose Jerusalem has something of the allegory about its bow, arrows and chariot of fire, but the others aren't exactly pacifist songs, are they? Even a little bit imperialistic in places? Raggytash could have included Hearts Of Oak as well, I suppose. Just because these songs are now regarded as part of our tradition and a little "establishment" (last night of the Proms, anyone?) doesn't take away from their original intent, which was to inspire people to be, er, non-pacifist... I'm not judging that but I am saying that you're wrong to assume that "our" militaristic songs are fine whereas those of The Other are not. It's the way of the world to have tunes to rouse you to the cause. The whole world, including us. You don't have to like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM

JERUSALEM — There have been fights over books, music, plays, funding for the arts and academic awards. This being Israel, they have been underpinned by fierce rhetorical exchanges about democracy, fascism and zealotry, identity, the future of the state and the fate of Jews.

The latest was an attack on Wednesday by a far-right group on beloved leftist literary icons including Amos Oz, A. B. Yehoshua and David Grossman, writers who have been considered the voice — and conscience — of the state for years. The group, Im Tirtzu, began a poster campaign calling the writers "moles in culture," which prompted accusations of McCarthyism.

Ms. Regev the divisive and conservative minister of culture and sport,said that the aim of the "Loyalty in Culture" initiative, proposed as an amendment to a must-pass budget bill, is "for the first time to make support for a cultural institution dependent on its loyalty to the state of Israel."

"The search, identification and marking of alleged traitors is an old fascist characteristic, an ugly and dangerous one," said an appalled Benny Begin, a member of Parliament and a former minister from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party.

This month, the left-leaning daily Haaretz highlighted internal discussions in the ministry about what artistic works might be considered "politically undesirable" for high-school students. Among the criteria, the newspaper said, were whether artists would perform in West Bank settlements and declare loyalty to the state and to the national anthem, something that is particularly problematic for Israel's Arab citizens.

Internal discussions are not policy, but even this report drew stinging responses, with Oded Kotler, a prominent Israeli actor and director, comparing Israel to the Soviet Union and telling Israel Radio, "There's a real culture war underway here, but the war from that side of the political map is a harbinger of zealotry, darkness and coercion."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/world/middleeast/israel-mired-in-ideological-battles-fights-on-cultural-fronts.html?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:33 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 29 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM

"I wouldn't expect you to understand professor."

Just as nobody now on this forum ever expects any sort of explanation or substantiation for the idiotic drivel you come out with Raggy such as your post of 29 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:21 AM

Jim,
it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.

You have made this claim a number of times now.
You have yet to substantiate it.
Please do so now.

No democratic government has absolved Israel from war crimes and atrocities - they have remain silent

Yes, because Israel has committed none!
On real issues, like settlements, they can be very critical but no serious person believes all that shit about massacres and atrocities.
You are too gullible Jim!

Israel has a rapidly expanding arms industry
That makes it a rival of most democracies, not a reason for friendship.
No-one has to be their friend, but decent democracies like to encourage others, especially in a region otherwise devoid of them.

You are not putting arguments Keith - simply denying Israel's guilt is not an argument - it's a denial.

That is not what I do.
All I have done is to put their side, just as you put the opposite side.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

I chose to respond to your point 5.
I put Israel's case that it abided by International Law, and the civilian deaths were due to Hamas' flouting of the law.
You have failed to challenge a word of it.
Would you like to choose the next one?