BS: Damian Green

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:39 PM

CS Lewis? He was bit dodgy by all accounts. Magic kingdoms in wardrobes indeed...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 04:42 PM

Green gets a dedicated thread because I started a dedicated thread about him, his case being topical. That's how we do things, Keith. Feel free to undedicate it by prattling on about what others may have done. But we will then feel free to accuse you of schoolyard whataboutery and treat you with the derision the approach deserves. If you have an issue with Clive Lewis, Ivan Lewis, anybody else called Lewis or even anybody not called Lewis, I could suggest that you start a new thread and see whether you can unyawn us enough to engage.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:24 PM

I wonder again why Damian Green has not taken this further.

With his resources and the backing of his party he could readily afford to take the Police Officers to court for defamation at least.

Strange he hasn't followed this route.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:46 PM

Jim, you are entitled to your views on porn and I do not distance myself from them, but it was legal porn viewed nine years ago and we can not prove who put it there, who watched it or even that it was really there.

These are very poor grounds to sack anyone.

The alleged harassment is of a very low order compared to all the other cases around just now, and much less then those Clive Lewis was accused of and cleared, though the lady has not withdrawn her accusation against him.

So, why does Green alone get a dedicated thread, with Steve and Jim actually making up false facts about it?
Asking that question is not "whataboutery."

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:16 AM

"but there are many and worse all around that "
More whataboutism again
I have made my position both on pornography and sex in general quite plain, it is all-encompassing and condemns outright the marketing and selling of sex, which is what pornogrphy is all about.
I have no problem with genuine erotic literature or films - my own song repertoire is full of the stuff - one of my all-time folk-heroes is Gershon Legman, the folklorist who specialised in sexual folklore
A it different from packaging and selling it like drugs.
That debases the sexual act and degrades those involved - I do not expect elected representatives to participate in that trade, yet it has been proved commonplace among them,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM

why do you refuse to condemn the "many" and why do you attempt to brush off an accusation of sexual harassment as unimportant?

I do neither.

Any accusation is important but there are many and worse all around that you show no interest or concern about.

This thread just seeks to make political capital out of one case with much less evidence than most.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:53 AM

" interesting reading..."
INTERESTING INDEED
"Maltby has told the inquiry she believes Green appeared to solicit sex from her in exchange for political mentoring. She declined to comment yesterday, with the investigation into Green due to be released in the coming days.
In a piece for the Times, which prompted the inquiry, Maltby said she met Green in a London pub, where she said the MP offered to help her take steps towards becoming a Conservative candidate. She alleged that Green had touched her knee during the meeting, as he mentioned that his own wife was "very understanding".
Maltby described a conversation that she said touched on affairs of acquaintances, then she said she "felt a fleeting hand against my knee - so brief it was almost deniable".
The activist said she avoided Green after their encounter but,
in 2016, subsequently wrote a piece for the Times where she was pictured wearing a corset. Green then texted her, unprompted, she said, saying: "Long time no see. But having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid, I feel impelled to ask if you are free for a drink anytime?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:42 AM

"it is reasonable to ask why."
Because this particular suspect is a member of an official body who are in a position to change the laws on a business that degrades women and puts them at risk to sexual attacks - he has been accused both of using pornography and harassment
If you are aware that his case is one "among many" why do you refuse to condemn the "many" and why do you attempt to brush off an accusation of sexual harassment as unimportant?
Rhetorical questions, of course - because they involve one of 'the great and the good' in a party you support
Your arguments have never been anything other than part of a political agenda, certainly nothing to do with justice.
You are happy to accuse two of his accusers as 'discredited' only on the word of your own flavour-of-the-month (one of the two hasn't been mentioned elsewhere as being unreliable)
Where is the justice in that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:25 AM

Now the suggestion is that he'll get away with this because he did it before he was a cabinet minister, therefore couldn't have been in breach of tne ministerial code. Ha bloody ha!

In fact, while Keith and the cabal would like us to think that this is just a fleeting knee-brush matter, in fact there's a fair bit more to it. Yesterday's Guardian had a piece entitled "MP inquiry: Fears Green may escape sanction" that makes interesting reading...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:06 AM

If you devote a thread to discussion of one case among so many, it is reasonable to ask why.

This case has much less behind it than most.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:34 PM

Defense against the whataboutism arts

but what about...

(Do not ignore but exclaim) "NO you are going to answer the question, You are not allowed to ask what about some other imaginary thing and change the subject.
You are going to answer, or you are going away.


if you do this, whataboutism will have had its day.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:15 PM

I think they do like it up 'em Mr Mainwaring

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

There seems to be something disproportionately damaged in the male tory psyche,
that renders them more likely to be predators, behaving inappropriately with women,
even abusing younger men & boys..

How much would their traditional exclusive single sex all boys public boarding school system play a part in this...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 01:25 PM

More whataboutism Iains
That the best you can manage?
Something we could all do had we a mind to
WHATABOUT?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 12:52 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_sexual_scandals

As I said in my opening post, "There are bad apples in every barrel."

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:51 AM

Anyone else noticed the standard Tory tactic of 'Whataboutery'? The Praying Mantis does it every time she's challenged over the Tory governments abject failure on almost everything - she was at it again on PMQs today - and the feeble-minded, terminally-propagandised Tory shills on here do it too.

Still, it's easier than getting involved in sensible and intelligent discussion....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:48 AM

Liberals eh?

Well for starters there's Paddy Pantsdown

And Norman Scott bites your pillow, or even vote Liberal or I'll shoot your dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:45 AM

"Of course, Jim, your view of it is quite Biblical in its approach."
If you care to read what I said Nigel, I have no interest in the minister's personal morality, nor anybody else's
I do care about sex being commodified by porn and privatised by the Tories
I hardly think quoting from a book that encourages stoning women to death for adultery a particularly apt authority on treatment of women, not to mention the casting out and blinding that occupies that particular source of wisdom.
"I don't know Keith's opinion, but I would think there must be 'degrees' in such matters."
Really!!
If one is sexual assault, what's the other?
As far as atrocities are concerned, Keith constantly defends atrocities he supports by pointing to others he doesn't
I'm sure Iains was trying to do something similar with his failed link.
It's all down to how you regard women in society and putting right what is wrong, I suppose
Doesn't seem to concern your lot overmuch where our 'betters' are concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM

pestminster "404 - File or directory not found.
The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."...???



lets not exclude Liberals and Greens...

All are potentially fallible...
.. it's just the tories can usually be relied on to amuse us with the most spectacularly squalid political scandals...

It's one thing they have a talent for doing better than all others...

I'll at least give 'em credit for that...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:30 AM

Tory sex & corruption scandals are always good for a laugh in these increasingly dispairing times...."

Not just the tories at pestminster . Lets have a really good laugh and look at labour as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:50 AM

"You all just become irrational about anything involving a Tory!"

Seems perfectly rational to relish tories squirming in humiliation and disgrace...

Tory sex & corruption scandals are always good for a laugh in these increasingly dispairing times....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:16 AM

Of course, Jim, your view of it is quite Biblical in its approach.
Matthew 5: 27-28:
"You heard it was said, 'Do not commit adultery,' but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:10 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM
""fleetingly" touching her knee "
So?
Are there degrees of sexual harassment in your book just as there are degrees of atrocities and crimes against humanity?
I suppose there are really

I don't know Keith's opinion, but I would think there must be 'degrees' in such matters.
Whether the fleeting touch of the knee would classify as 'sexual harrassment' I don't know. But it is certainly less serious than grabbing a woman by the bust, which, in turn, is less serious than forced rape.

Do you, Jim, feel each of those three things are of the same degree? And do you think that they are all equally totally abhorrent? And should someone found guilty of any one of them receive the same sentence?
If you do feel that they are all of the same degree, then once having touched a knee, a man may as well go ahead and commit rape. You say they're all equivalent anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM

""fleetingly" touching her knee "
So?
Are there degrees of sexual harassment in your book just as there are degrees of atrocities and crimes against humanity?
I suppose there are really
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:14 AM

Steve,
So who's "exonerated" Green then, Keith?

No-one has.
Peston claimed on TV that the enquiry will, but nothing official yet.

Why do you people assume his guilt, start a thread all about how guilty he is, and make up facts to compensate for the absence of any real ones?

You all just become irrational about anything involving a Tory!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:09 AM

Jim,
Knee fondling and propositioning actually

ITV,
"Writing in The Times, Kate Maltby accused the First Secretary of State of "fleetingly" touching her knee during a 2015 meeting in a London pub, and of sending her a "suggestive" text two years later. "

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM

So who's "exonerated" Green then, Keith?

I'm no fan of Ivan Lewis even though he's a good local MP, etc. (he's my parents' MP as it happens). He was targeted by a Gordon Brown "hit-squad" smear in an attempt to discredit him after he'd embarrassed Brown. He's not squeaky-clean. As far as I know, proceedings are ongoing. I don't see what he has to do with this thread. Still, gnaw away. I know you will. If I tell you that he's a big noise in Labour Friends Of Israel (my dad refuses to vote for him), will that mollify you? Hilarious-laughter emojee...

Cressida Dick was in charge of the operation that led to the disgusting and brutal slaughter of Jean-Charles Menezes who was a complete innocent. The establishment looked after her and promoted her when, in my opinion and in the opinion of many other people, she should have disappeared from public view for ever at the very least. Jean-Charles' family and public opinion in Brazil have never accepted the cover-ups. Right, Keith. I've answered that question. Don't start on that unless you start another thread on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:24 AM

His integrity is severely in doubt whether you like it or not.

Yes it is.

Why is Cressida Dick "arguably discredited?"
Are you claiming an establishment cover up?
I think you are deluded.

Like so many other similar cases, there may be something in it, but we will never know.
A female Labour member accused Lewis of groping her.
Labour investigated and exonerated him.
She lied or a Labour cover up? I do not know but I would not start a thread celebrating his guilt and make up facts because of the absence of any real ones.
Why do you people behave like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:23 AM

"Losing the argument Jimmie? So bring up the racist card. What a twat!"
That's about the height of this pair's contribution - intellect to the fore as usual
My point was not about race it was about Keith's double standards between police who stick to the script and those who do not
"Ignore the troll."
Right you are - the blast from under this particular bridge is beyond a joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

You accuse me of typing made up shit, etc, then you negate that in your own post! In other parts of this thread we've had Iains calling for them to be slung into jail and we've had constant accusations of their bearing a grudge (an accusation, without knowing the characters of the men, that you can't support: it's perfectly possible for mature adults to feel that they've been wronged or dissed without turning it into a grudge) and, by constantly claiming that there's no evidence for the porn, you're implying that they are lying. And the word "discredited" has been thrown around repeatedly, though you can't explain who did the discrediting, bar you and Iains. One little point that I should reiterate: the policeman's nine-year-long knowledge of the porn was not made public until four days after the allegations from the Tory party female worker came out. That sounds to me like the cop wanting to add weight to her allegations. In other words, he may have thought he was acting in the public interest. He certainly was never going to make a fortune from the Mail printing "his story." I would never claim that he wasn't out of order technically in making it public. But, to coin a cliche, we are where we are. And where we are is that Green has a lot of explaining to do, protective establishment attack-dogs notwithstanding. His integrity is severely in doubt whether you like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:52 AM

or should I say trolls

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:48 AM

Did you detect an echo Steve, I'm sure my last post started "Like I said yesterday STEVE"

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:46 AM

Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:46 AM

Losing the argument Jimmie? So bring up the racist card. What a twat!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:36 AM

Rag,

Like I said yesterday Steve, Damien Green could take the matter to court and sue the police officers for defamation.

I answered that before.
The investigation is not complete, and to bring such a case requires you to prove it is false.
No-one can prove that they did not look at porn ten years ago.

Jim,
You said there was no porn on the compter and that the untrustworthy policemen lied about it

That was a lie Jim. Now you just claim,
You have implied as much since the beginning

Again, I have not.
Now Steve adds his lies,

Your cabal regard the two cops as not to be trusted, potentially lying, doing made up shit, bearing a grudge, out of order, should be prosecuted, let's throw the keys away etc, the very epitome of "discredited."

All made up shit, but I did point out the long standing feud as described by the Guardian piece I liked to, twice.

Many prominent people are currently accused of sexual misbehaviour, including members of all our main parties.

This one may or may not be true. We just have unsubstantiated allegations made nine years later by ex-cops with a grudge. It would not stand up in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:31 AM

Yep, I'm sure he has his reasons for not wanting to up the ante. Having your porn habit aired in public, even if not illegal, must be bloody embarrassing. Just look at how Iains went ballistic when I suggested that he'd implicated himself thus. Of course, if the whole thing is a pack of trumped-up lies, Green would have nothing to fear by suing, would he? As you say, very strange...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:07 AM

Like I said yesterday Steve, Damien Green could take the matter to court and sue the police officers for defamation. I'm sure he has the resources to do so and would get the backing of the party if he needed.

All a bit strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:54 AM

Your cabal regard the two cops as not to be trusted, potentially lying, doing made up shit, bearing a grudge, out of order, should be prosecuted, let's throw the keys away etc, the very epitome of "discredited."

So lemme ask again, Keith. The claims of you and Iains aside, how are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting? Do opinionated statements emanating from Green's Tory allies or (the arguably discredited) Cressida Dick, or other members of the establishment, sufficient to have us branding them "discredited," or is that just another throwaway remark of the "vulgar and fraudulent" ilk?

Are you just a jealous baldie slaphead, Iains? Far from being blonde, I'm a fiercely-bearded dark-haired Celtic type. Grr. Mind you, I've known some very nice blonde ladies... Don't bother sending a photo.

And don't even mention gingers. Oops, wrong thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM

"I did not Jim."#You have implied as much since the beginning
You described the police as "discredited" on the basis of the wotrd of the accused, though one has never been described thus - you made it up.
"So why start a thread devoted to celebrating his guilt?"
Because there's no reason to belive he isn't - porn is as common as cheese and lettuce sandwiches in the parliamentary suystem and the fellr is obviously a sex predator a set up that seems to GO IN FOR THAT SORT OF THING
Still nothing on the actuations of a fellow Tory - not even worth a mention!
What will probably happen here is that Greene's 'little peccadillos' will be swept under the carpet and eventually forgotten and his victim will probably be bought off on the understanding that she never raises the matter again - every time, with these people!!
You pair are virtually Dickensian in your defence of the great and the good - one Uriah Heep , the other, Whackford Squeers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:55 AM

You said there was no porn on the compter and that the untrustworthy policemen lied about it

I did not Jim.

We do not know if anyone is lying. There could have been porn on the computer. He might be responsible.It is just that neither is proven.

So why start a thread devoted to celebrating his guilt?
Why do you all assume it?
Why have you and Steve actually made up false facts about the case.

It is all political hysteria that we only get from you lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:20 AM

"You having a blond moment shaw?"
You people are CARICATURES of this rotten society Iains - one wheedling hand wringer of behalf of the great and good, the other a blustering bully who believes they can talk people down if they are unable to produce an intelligent response.
When the police were saying the right things, as with the racially motivated killings in Manchester, their word is the end; here, when a couple of policemen suggest a senior politician might have done wrong they become discredited liars." acting out of self interest and revenge.
Damien Green appears to be a serial sex pest - his victim, a fellow Tory, appears to have no interest for you pair in all this - probably a "discredited liar" too.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

How are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:06 AM

"How are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting?"

You having a blond moment shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:44 PM

How are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting?

If I were subjected to an attempted character assassination by a worried Tory I'd wear it as a badge of honour...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:40 PM

Iains - that reads so much like a word for word tory party line defense kit counter attack....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:30 PM

"But jimmy has elected him to sainthood"
Nope - I have said his word is as good as serial sex pest - that' all
It wasn't those who carried out the raid's job to obtain a warrant - it was the job of those who ordered the raid
Mors made up crap about the character of the accusee
You establishment arese-lickrs woul a say that, wouldn't you?
When in doubt - smear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:14 PM

I do not know if the police officer in question has done so, but if I were in his shoes I would damned sure I had back up evidence nicely stored away from prying eyes so that if Green was to try and sue me I could produce said evidence in court.

I wonder why Green hasn't gone down that route.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

Wonderful how the mudrats consistently confuse fact and fiction. It seems a common failing with all of them. They work up a complete fantasy on the unsubstantiated allegations of a couple of discredited coppers. The more senior one overstepped the mark by barging into an
MP's office, without even a search warrant, and took away materials.
Later he was photographed entering Downing Street clutching a confidential document. This was a convenient device enabling the removal of an embarrassment to everyone, not least the police. He was a high flier that flew too close to the sun and did a very poor Icarus impersonation. He crashed and burnt and held a grudge for the next nine years. Discredited is the least of his problems. But jimmy has elected him to sainthood. I suspect the halo would end up a ;little singed if this affair ever came to court.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:53 PM

"I have made no such accusation. "
You said there was no porn on the compter and that the untrustworthy policemen lied about it
"Groper Green"
Knee fondling and propositioning actually
Not much difference when you are one of his victims - or do you have a sliding scale of sexual assaults like you do with state atrcocities
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:49 PM

D'you thin there should be punishment for pulling your pud at the taxpayer's expense?

He denies it Jim. How do you know he is guilty?
Just prejudice Jim.
No court would convict on such flimsy evidence