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The current state of folk music in UK
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM "Jim - yeah.. but.. this thread aint about Ireland..." Then why raise libraries ? Ireland is an example of how the fortunes of traditional music can be turned when everybody thought it was finished Our work shows that English and Irish traditions are very similar - dying scene can learn from a growing one - surely ? I believe Ireland can learn from Britain - nowadays that seems to be confined to what to avoid Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM Fine Jim. Whatever. You are the ultimate arbiter not only of what is folk music but also what passes as humour. It must be tough having all that responsibility. I hope that you are up to the job. Good luck. Now, back to the thread, have you managed to find anything to dispute my claim that good quality folk music can be found anywhere in England, any day of the week and any time of year? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:58 PM I don't recall ever hearing Harry Boardman on South West England TV or Radio One back in the 1970s...??? Though I'd be surprised if Brenda Wooton got much media exposure up north...??? Earlier today, I asked Alexa to play any of his tracks.. but not available for streaming... So I found and bookmarked some of his songs on youtube, but the one I had a quick sample taste listen too didn't appeal to me too much. I'll try some more later... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:01 PM It's no sin to dislike some of the source or revival singers, PFR. Although the way some go on you would think so... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM "Then why raise libraries ?" Jim - do what...??? you actually really don't care...!!!??????? Why would that even need explaining to you...??? as it's so obvious to any small UK town that no longer has a public library stocked with Trad Folk CDs/LPs, amongst everything else that is now taken away from ordinary UK citizens seeking free self-education in austere tory Britain... Maybe, living so long in Ireland has detached you too much from our UK reality...??? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:20 PM he was known s harry boredom by raggytash and his chums but for many others throughout the uk folk rvival he was a well respected performer, the very fact you call him harry boredom is an insult and a slur on a man who ran a club for many years and who gave the chance to and encouraged many performers such as brian peters myself mark dowding, you are insignificant compared to Harry, when you have acieved half of what he achieved someone might respect you, in the meantime, stop this boring mantra, if you had repeated this slur to my face ,i would have told you in al ess polite manner my opinion of that shitty remark |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM "Why would that even need explaining to you...??? as it's so obvious to any small UK town that no longer has a public library" Ennis is a County Town and has taken on the musican and song heritage of the whole county It has done that because they have been persuaded of its cultural and historical importance - that is never going to happen if the so-called exponents of folk song don't take their responsibilities seriously It was through the eforst of people like me and Pat, Reg Hall, Malcomlm Taylor and a few others going to the National Sound Archive who, in their turn,, went to the British Library, that Britain Got it's 'Bright Golden Store' online-archive so dion't come the 'living in Ireland' bit please Scurrying behind "you don't live in England any more" is wearing a little thin Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:30 PM Dick - but for folks who grew up never knowing him or his music, he is still an unknown quantity... For me personally, it's only since I joined mudcat 15 or so years ago that I've noticed his name mentioned occasionly... Listening to his recordings is something I now intend to do, and I'll do it with an open mind, and come to my own conclusions about how much I enjoy him in 2019... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM That guest was me pfr.. My mobile phone has signed me out without me realising... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:41 PM I sometimes wonder if some people can actually clean their teeth from the inside. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM Jim - no I'm not having you lump me in with your perceived enemies.. I've never once before mentioned anything about you living in Ireland disqualifying you from having an opinion.. No idea what doing that now.. But here I can't accept you completely dismissing our problems in England, while you then continue to bang on about how great island is... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:43 PM To Peter Laban, Thank you for your answer to my query way above but I would just like to point out that "breathing out" does bot bring air INTO the mouth. I don't recall any other singers or even Theatre Workshop players adopting this pose. But I wonder did Christine Keeler ever sing a folk song??? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:44 PM That should have read "neither am I doing that now".. Bloody mobile phones... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM You can't afford a mobile phone PFR. They are the province of us nouveu riche middle class folkies... :-P |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM "I don't recall any other singers or even Theatre Workshop players adopting this pose" So you saw their plays and monologues then This gets stupid Maccoll used it for the reason he said We tried it and it worked It's a part of relaxing the bod i otderr to produce an uncluttered sound - S.W, developed it from the ideas of an expert on relaxation, Nelson Illingworth Why do you do this Hoot - it really does you no credit "Jim - no I'm not having you lump me in with your perceived enemies.." I wouldn't do that P - I have people I disagree with heer but I couldn't very few of them as "enemies" - I leave that to those who consider argument insulting You mentioned that my "living in Ireland" has put me out of touch with what's happening in British Libraries - maybe I'm knee-jerking in memory of all those who tell me I don't know what's happening on the club scene because I "live in Ireland" - if so, I apologise - (long day and still not shaken off a heavy cold) I don't regard them "enemies" - just lost sheep in need of a shepherd :-) Jim Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:03 PM I'm back on my PC now.. This is a corrected repeat of that post... ===================================================== Jim - no, I'm not having you lump me in with your perceived enemies.. I've never once before mentioned anything about you living in Ireland disqualifying you from having an opinion.. Neither am I doing that now.. But here in this thread about the UK, I can't accept you completely dismissing our problems in England, while you then continue to bang on about how great Ireland is... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM Jim - we cross posted.. No problems, no sneers ever intended... I was just a bit astonished that you'd not give a monkeys about our libraries being cut by tories...??? Which you obviously would never seriously mean like that... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 PM DtG.. I have a "Peoples mobile phone" best value for money budget price smart phone.. A cheap Lenovo/Motorola.. I'd never have one of those flashy conspicious consumption Apples or Samsungs... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:45 PM Ah, Ok. Is it like "The Voice of the People"? :D tGs |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:59 PM hello.. hello.. sorry the signal is breaking up... hello.. hello.. oh sod it.. been cut off... The peoples voice goes unheard... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:18 PM Hello Hong Kong! What's weather like over there? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:02 PM Compare the irish folk awards with the uk folk awards in my opinion the irish are closer to the roots of the music |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM So what ? It's not an international competition. I believe Scotland has "Folk Awards" too, but obviously they are not worth mentioning - or of course, you are totally dismissive, or more likely, ignorant of them. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:32 PM Jim, Obviously you are unaware of this and why should you be but I once lived about two miles from The Theatre Royal, Stratford. I wouldn't say that all of this thread was stupid but as with many posts above I can't understand why you think that the situation in Ireland is relevant to what is or is not going on in the UK. You admit that it is second hand knowledge that you have from this side of the Irish Sea. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:49 PM hoot look at irish folk awards and then see the difference with the english folk awards , that is the relevance comparing one country that is closer to its indigenous roots and the uk which has moved further away from oits indigenous roots |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:29 PM no guest 31 OCT i love scottish music, i am critical of how English FOLK MUSIC HAS MOVED AWAY FROM ITS ROOTS ,ENGLAND IS PART OF THE UK SO MY COMMENTS ARE RELEVANT, IT IS NOT A COMPETITION YOU SILLY BILLY BUT A COMPARISON |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:06 PM "Obviously you are unaware of this and why should you be but I once lived about two miles from The Theatre Royal, Stratford." So - I once worked with one of the founders of Theatre Workshop - for over twenty years What's your point ? Incidently _ I met both of Ewans wives - three if you count Peggy (who is still a friend) I've told you what the technique was used for - I use it occasionally - I suggest you do "You admit that it is second hand knowledge that you have from this side of the Irish Sea." Did I say that - no - course I didn't My forays into British clubs is nowhere near as frequent as they once where but every time we visit the UK we make a point of trying to vissit one or two Impossible in some places as tere are none, but thee ones we have managed (partoicularly that in the home of the English Folk Song and Dance Society) haas confirmed the description of what many have defended here - folk clubs minus folk songs I see seem to remember The Ballads and Blues was beginning to look like that when MacColl left "I was just a bit astonished that you'd not give a monkeys about our libraries being cut by tories...???" Of course I do - but it is not relevant to your excuse (sorry - argument) I became a member of my local library at the age of 13 and remained one ti;; we left Britain, when I joined The Patrick Hillary Library (Miltown Malbay) Not having a library would be like having part of my brain removed I'm rather proud of teh fact that my merchant seaman grandfather helped start the forrst btanch of the seaman's branch of the Worker's Education Association He later translated several of Shekespear's plays into fluent Scouse and was invited to talk on his interest to students at Stoke on Trent college of (something or other) ""The Voice of the People"?" Humour or more piss-take I wonder Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jack Campin Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:11 PM Yes there are Scottish folk awards too. Lots of them in countless categories the general public doesn't give a monkey's about. A meaningless boondoggle of mutual backpatting. There are a lot of things Scottish folk does very well but handing out gongs isn't one of them. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 PM ""I was just a bit astonished that you'd not give a monkeys about our libraries being cut by tories...???" Of course I do - but it is not relevant to your excuse (sorry - argument)" Jim -"excuse"...??? What am I supposed to be making an excuse about...!!!??? What is it you think my argement is, because I'm buggered if I know.. Have you got me confused with someone else again...??? I seriously can't fathom out what's going on in your head, why you are being so argumentative about the forced closure of UK public libraries, and the loss of local small town free to borrow collections of folk music CDs and LPs...?????????????? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM "What am I supposed to be making an excuse about...!!!???" The state of local libraries maybe? Again, if I mistook your meaning, I'm sorry County libraries are the places to aim for "why you are being so argumentative about the forced closure of UK public libraries," I'm not - I know what's happening - it's happening to a degree over here with local libraries being centralised in Dublin, but in my experience some of the larger UK libraries were open (sort of) to expanding their activities I've lectured on folksong to specialist libraries and the Deptford Library once hosted a day devoted to Travellers which enabled us to bring in singers and storytellers to perform to schoolkids - one of the most memorable days I've ever spent This is the type of thing that could be done by EFDSS if they cared enough about the music to get up off their arses Jaysus - how I miss Malcolm Taylor even if his taste in folksong was sometimes a bit iffy) Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:22 PM Jim - We moved out of London nearly 20 years ago back to tory dominated south west England.... The library here and in the next town down the road have both been closed permanently in the last 2 or 3 years.. We used to have a substantial CD collection, accumulated over years by a Librarian who was obviously a UK Folk Music enthusiast... Also a lot of British folk books, I know that because of all the late fines I used to pay on them... The loss of such resources is far more immediately important to us out here in the provinces, than any big specialist library in the capital city... It's great that those special academic collection libraries continue to flourish, but they are not so relevant to ordinay folks as our local public lending libraries were for so many decades... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:28 PM Why.. it's almost as if the tories don't want ordinary small town citizens to educate themselves.....????? Unless they fork out hard earned cash to commercial tuition companies selling vocational courses the tories approve of... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM PFR I have to say you weer right to a degree to say I didn't know the full situation of the local libraries in Britain - so I looked it up, and was horrified to see the level they have been driven too by the Government's..... - some would say 'neglect' but I believe it's more deliberate that that - one of the tenets of the Slave Trade was that it is dangerous to educate those you would dominate THE SITUATION TEN MONTHS AGO I'm grateful for the education That aside, it doesn't stop any enterprising group from going higher up and attempting to involve the County or even National libraries in folk song, as we did in Clare This is an example of what might be attempted, instigated by two friends, Michel Fortune and Aileen Lambert, from Wexford TRADITIONAL FOLK SONG PROJECTS Mick and Aileen devised a number of projects, got together groups of singers, (good but not necessarily widely known and certainly not professional performers), approached The National Library of Ireland, who agreed to sponsor them in taking their work around venues in various parts of Ireland at irregular intervals (not a 'tour') and putting on mini-concerts to schools and colleges. Each one had an increasingly positive effect, the best know and most successful was the 'Man Woman and Child' Project The immediate effect was the marked increase in the singing of Child Balllads in clubs and sessions, almost unheard of previously. I was inspired to fulfil a long-time intention of gathering all the Child Ballads that had been captured from the older generation of singers - I've now been working on it for over two years and am hoping to finish it in the next few months Then I will get all the example I have found, get singers for the ones from print, and pass them on to whoever is interested (probably via PCloud, but I ham hoping that ITMA might consider putting them on line for me I see no reason why similar projects can't be taken, say to The National Sound Archive at the British Library and try to win their interest The British Library has, at long last, shown an interest in folk song, thanks to pioneers like Lucy Duran who herself a renowned field worker This would fit in perfectly with the B.L's putting collections of folk song and music on line, as it has been doing for some years now. It needs to be confined to folk song as documented and not "I don't know what folk song is" wishy-washiness, which will give it roots in the academic world while at the same time showing the 'entertainment' value of the people's culture. Its aim should not be to provide work for established singers, but to give the job to folkies who are there for the love and promotion of songs, not for earning a wage or making their name - hopefully there are enough competent and dedicated singers to put together such schemes without them costing a fortune - Groups could be put together in various parts of Britain rather than them being centralised in London and having to travel to the venues - but they would need to be well-co-ordinated By using non-stars you would be introducing songs showing you don't have to have been singing before audiences for years - every man and woman a singer (if they work at it) Mick and Aileen's work did much to increase folk song nationally in Ireland - I wonder if anybody had such dedication in Britain Ideally, EFDSS not only could, but should do it - I doubt if they would be interested I thought of broaching the idea with The Traditional Song Forum when we were in Belfast a couple of weeks ago but didn't get the chance. Something needs to be done, and quick, if Britain is not going to lose its greatest cultural asset Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM Jack you are right there are more important things than handing out gongs, i thought that comparing the irish and english awards might throw light on each countries state of folk music and i think to some extent it does,of course that is not a reason for having the silly awrds in the first place |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM jim,perhaps norfolk county sound archives might be ther lace for Walterand Harry cox recordings |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM Dick Thanks for that - I'll look them up and if I ahve any trouble locating them, I'll get back to you They're all digitised and listed so it would b e a formality to just pass them on Who's in charge of The Norfolk Archive? Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM no guest 31 OCT i love scottish music, i am critical of how English FOLK MUSIC HAS MOVED AWAY FROM ITS ROOTS ,ENGLAND IS PART OF THE UK SO MY COMMENTS ARE RELEVANT, IT IS NOT A COMPETITION YOU SILLY BILLY BUT A COMPARISON Then if you're comparing England with Ireland, you should have titled your discussion "The Current State of Folk Music in England", which I'm fairly certain is not the same as the state of folk music in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. There's not a single person here who is in a position to judge "the current state of folk music in the UK". For that to be meaningful, you would have to know what's going on in Shetland down to Lands End, and all points in between. If anyone has that experience let them come forward. What's happening her is that people are reporting their own personal local experience and extrapolating it to cover the whole of the UK, which is meningless. It was a badly-worded "discussion" in the first place, and nobody's any the wiser since it started. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM I'm assuming by the use of capitals that was you Dick? Apologies if not but Guest 31st October wasn't the person who titled this thread. That was me. Thanks for the criticism anyway. For a badly titled thread it has received over 800 responses - ok some were pointless arguments but I personally think there has been a lot of interesting reading |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM I know everything you say is true Guest - England has a great deal to learn from what if happening in parts of Scotland (I would love to believe "all of Scotland) I am constantly turning on Northern Irish television and seeing programmes of Sc ots and Irish singers co-operating in musical projects) - Julie Fowlis is a regular and our Clare Musician Edel Fox made one a couple of weeks ago The Scots have a tradition to be proud of - hopefully there are more people recognizing that fact than there are in England at present Lang may your lums.... whatever !! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:35 AM yes joe g, that was me, but this below was not so i do not know what is going on Then if you're comparing England with Ireland, you should have titled your discussion "The Current State of Folk Music in England", which I'm fairly certain is not the same as the state of folk music in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. There's not a single person here who is in a position to judge "the current state of folk music in the UK". For that to be meaningful, you would have to know what's going on in Shetland down to Lands End, and all points in between. If anyone has that experience let them come forward. What's happening her is that people are reporting their own personal local experience and extrapolating it to cover the whole of the UK, which is meningless. It was a badly-worded "discussion" in the first place, and nobody's any the wiser since it started. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:36 AM joe g , i reckon someomne hacked in and added the bottom bit |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Iains Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:45 AM According to the living tradition there are 178 folkclubs in the uk. They do not claim the list is complete. (6 in N. Ireland) Interesting resources: one among many(not yet online) Jim Carroll & Pat MacKenzie's Collection http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/magazine/articles Sessions and useful links http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/session-index In Ireland the listing is different (apples and oranges) http://www.folkandhoney.co.uk/ireland/venues/ |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:46 AM I am talking about england as a whole, in the north east the folk scene is stronger imo, there are more tradtional bsed folk clubs with strong resident singers, however Newcastle bridge folk club apparantly gets more people when they book local acts that is an intersting phenomenon, the conclusion could be viewd in different ways ,it could be inward looking,or it could be a sign of a strong local scene |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM "I see seem to remember The Ballads and Blues was beginning to look like that when MacColl left" Jim, I just cannot ever take you seriously. You have said in the past that you had never been to the Ballads & Blues Club but your future wife had. The above event took place in 1961 when I believe you were still up North not having moved to London until 1966. How can you 'seem to remember' something that you didn't witness? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM Thanks Djck. I thought it was unusual as you have made some helpful and interesting contributions to the debate Wonder how they hacked in? Very sad and potentially very disruptive. It's already too easy to fall out here without people attributing comments to others! I agree with your later comment about the north east of England being very strong. My first club was the Hartlepool Folk Club at the Nursery - I've lost touch with what has happened up there in detail but many of the clubs that were around in my early days still seem to be going strong |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM "How can you 'seem to remember' something that you didn't witness?" Of course I didn't witness it, but I actually have recordings from the period - one done by the BBC MacColl was quite clear what he believed was happening to The Ballads and Blues when he wrote "Why I am starting a New Club" for Dallas' Folk magazine - we have it here I knew Ewan and those around him long enough to have some picture Even one folkie who was not particularly sympathetic wto Ewan's ideas wrote in his reminiscences of the period that the B and B was becoming a bit of a free-for-all He told the story of Nixon doing a runner with the club's finances in the same piece I still find it amazing how people who revel in MacColl Urban Legends leap on their high chairs demanding proof when their own flavours-of-the-month are criticised From Iains's list, it seems pretty conclusive that there are less than 200 clubs in Britain (and I never really think of Northern Ireland as being part of the British scene - for historical reasons and because of the fact that Ieland never really had a strong club ethos) Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM No one "hacked in", Joe. They copied Dick's comment into their own post and then tagged their own comments on to that. Both posts are still there to view. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:01 AM Dick wrote:- look at irish folk awards and then see the difference with the english folk awards , that is the relevance comparing one country that is closer to its indigenous roots and the uk which has moved further away from oits indigenous roots Dick, this would only be true if the awards had any relevance, which in my opinion they do not. The organisers are a self-appointed coterie of interested parties who decide themselves who the awards should go to without any reference to public opinion and who have their own axes to grind. What you are saying, Dick, is that the Irish candidate selection cartel is more inclined to the tradition than the English candidate selection cartel. As for the Scottish Awards, we have heard that they are a meaningless boondoggle of mutual backpatting.. Now I don't speak jackcamipnese but I am assuming that this means the Scottish shortlists and awards, like the other two are selected by a very small panel with no sense of how the judges are appointed. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Jim Martin Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM Jim Carroll You mention N. Ireland tv but I think you'll find most of the Irish/British trad music co-operation is between RTE & BBC Alba - & very good it is too. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:39 AM Ah thanks Dave - yes I see now! Thought it was odd! Whoever that particular Guest was needs to read the posts on here more closely or just save all our time by not commenting |
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