BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:35 PM

"Retirement’s by far the best job I’ve ever had."
It is for me too, but we were in a position to move to somewhere we could afford where we wanted to b and survive on the proceeds of out London home
It almost makes being sentenced for thirty years in a place we didn't want to be
Not a lot of people are that lucky
Now I have come to realise I won't have enough time to finish everything I need to te make sense of our lives - but we're happy someone else will
That's why I love having become involved in folk song
**** all that maudlin nonsense - I'm going to live forever
TOP of the WORLD MA !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM

Two days ago Iains posted some interesting information which raises numerous questions. He posted:-
                  positive               Deaths
Italy             105,792               12,428                        
Spain             95,923                8,464         
Germany            71,808                775               
France             52,128                3,523         
UK                25,150                2.352               
Switzerland       16,605                433         
Belgium            12,775                705               
Netherlands       12,595                1,039               
Austria            10,298                128

There would appear to be significant difference between testing positive and fatalities between various nations. Germany, Switzerland and Austria appear to have far lower fatality rates other countries.

So are we asking them how they are managing the crisis, are we asking them how they are caring for the sick.

It would seem they are doing something that other countries are not, something that appears to be beneficial.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:48 PM

Based in the ExCel centre, the NHS Nightingale Hospital will be able to hold as many as 4,000 coronavirus patients, we should be proud and thankful that such an amazing facility was put together in just 9 days.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:54 PM

It was put together by the army in the main, Bonzo. At least the present administration have the sense to use the armed forces sensibly for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM

"we should be proud and thankful that such an amazing facility was put together in just 9 days."
Worth repeating that it's a shame that failing to produce sufficient protection for the medical staff will possibly put off getting staff for this magnificent and essential facility
Already this hospital has been downgraded for the treatment of LESS CRITICAL CASES

Are you people really more concerned about covering up the shortcomings on behalf of your Government, than meting the needs of the victims ?
You really need to tune your instrument instead of political bum-kissing
Bozo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:23 PM

Raggytash: The source data, scroll to the table.
Here

More testing,catching the asymptomatic, (thus boradening the victim base, more rigerous determination of cause of death where co-morbidities exist?
As yet the conundrum is unanswered. Do they have a better approach, or is it differences in collation? I am sure mant people are studying the German figures to see if lessons cn be learnt. This crisis is likely to last way beyong the initial lockdowns being discussed. Trying to restart with a "Clearance" certificate is fraught with difficulties. It merely captures a moment in time, just like an MOT cert. The following day you could become a budding typhoid Mary.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

What a shame you lefty pefties can't have things your own way, Oh dear what a shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Totally pointless attacking post. Please stop.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:46 PM

Clearance certificates come with other problems too. will there be a market value in forging them? Or will a simple photocopy do? How do you prove the person carrying bff the certificate is who is named on it? Who will be authorised to demand "Show me your papers!" and in what contexts?

Plenty of problems.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:53 PM

"What a shame you lefty pefties can't have things your own way, "
And what a shame the rabid right care more about their glorious leaders than the people they constantly betray
You haven't even bothered to deny these facts Bozo - how can you ?
Jim Carroll

Jim, is a post containing the words 'leftie pefties' worth responding to? Does it not provide a clue that it is trying to inflame a response?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:58 PM

Sensible political comment for Bonzo yet again I see. At least he is not rolling out his latest "we would both be wrong" joke yet again :-) In the meanwhile the right wing in the UK carries on gloating while Rome burns...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:23 PM

In the meanwhile the right wing in the UK carries on gloating while Rome burns...

A bit shy on examples there gnome. Looks to me like you are merely flamebaiting again.

Well stop responding if you think it's flame baiting!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:51 PM

You have been bragging how many less victims there are in Britain than elsewhere since this began Iains - you even provided figures which, I doubt were included among your many postings deleted
Go and check

I have family of direct Irish extraction living in Merseyside and in Cumbria; some of them, like many Irish in Britain, became nurses in the NHS - for the respect, the cushy jobs, short hours, long holidays and the astronomical wages, of course !!!
Given their backgrounds, I have little doubt that the retired ones will have got their names down to give a hand in this mess
It will be a long time before I forget the contempt shown for their kind by people like you and Bozo, neither of whom have ever shown anything for contempt for either Irish people or medical staff
Bozo has invented a special language for Catholics and you.... well !
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:52 PM

Examples? How about

What a shame you lefty pefties can't have things your own way, Oh dear what a shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for a start?

sigh, why are you responding to the comment?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 03:36 PM

I went home with a waitress the way I always do
How was I to know she was with the russians, too?
I was gambling in havana, I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns, and money
Dad, get me out of this

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 03:39 PM

The Prince of Wales has opened the new NHS Nightingale at the ExCeL Centre in east London with the hospital becoming the world's largest
critical care unit less than two weeks after work began.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:56 PM

OPEN GOVERNMENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM

Re #BBCbreakfast & Covid19, if available, can you imagine our doctors & nurses in WWII stopping to make AMERICAN pop videos & get their faces on TV?! Our culture & society have been ruined by mass economic/CAPITALIST immigration; my poem "The Old Dart"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

DMcG posted at 01.46 about the use of certification papers. I live most of my life in France (although am in the UK due to the virus stopping travel) and over there the use of certificates is required for all activity outside one's own property.
The forms have to be printed off the government website and contain a list of things that are acceptable, such as shopping, exercise, doctor/pharmacie visits, caring for relatives I think and a couple of others. You also have to take a form of identification (only passport, photo driving licence, Carte de Sejour) and these are checked along with the form. A new form is required for each activity and it is very strictly enforced with police or army checks even at some supermarkets.
I'm not saying this is the way forward, just that it is being done with no apparent 'black market' or identity theft. People, in the main, seem to be adhering very strictly to the rules over there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:31 AM

Thanks for the feedback. Barb'ry - which by the way feeds into my earlier comment that I use these threads more for extending my understanding, rather than trying to persuade other people.

It is fairly common in the UK for people (especially the poorer ones) to have no passport and no driving licence. I know one person who is disabled and has no photo id at all, so some solution would need to be found for people like that. It's not impossible, by any means, but it would still have to be addressed.

I admit my comment about forgery was really just a resuscitation of a concern about id cards. Broadly speaking, the more valuable something is, the greater the incentive to forge it. A form that anyone can print off at any time but you just have to have on you is a low value item so not worth forging. If one were to introduce a 'ration book', on the other hand, I imagine there would be a market for forging those. It is well worth forging passports and there is a small but thriving market for forged 'blue badges': the more inherent value in the object, the more it is liable to be forged.

So if the forms are simply printed off, there is no point in forging. But if, for example, certain streets could only shop on Mondays, others Tuesdays, etc etc, I could see a 'Monday' person wanting to forge a 'Friday' permit if stocks ran low.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:33 AM

Keir Starmer has been elected leader of the Labour Party, with more votes than Corbyn won with in 2015. A massive mandate…

Leadership:

    Starmer – 56.2% ELECTED
    Long-Bailey – 27.6%
    Nandy – 16.2%

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:42 AM

That is good news for all, starmer is very sharp and should provide a decent opposition to johnson!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:34 AM

If Starmer shows any interest in the welfare of the people as a whole he'll go the way of Corbyn
That's the way it works nowadays Boris and his Braindeads, with the assistance of a take media (and International right wing extremist allies), of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

good news - i supported corbyn but feel he should have stood down a couple of years back. i am glad to support keir starmer and angela rayner and wish them well. we have been reading on here for some time that rebecca long-bailey was going to win and continue in corbyn style - but i never thought that would happen- there is certainly no appetite for that in our local labour party. it will be interesting to see what the media make of keir starmer's win.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:46 AM

I thought Rebecca Long-Bailey was a better option to keep the Labour party true to its roots but I also think Keir Starmer is more likely to win back the electorate. I wish him luck and hope he can remove the factionalism that has caused no end of damage. Once we have a united party and have regained the support of the voters we can start to rebuild the party to the socialist model it should be.

Sadly we will still be in opposition to a party that, with its massive majority, believes it has been given the mandate to shit on the poor and destroy social care with impunity. At least the coronavirus has barred their way to selling off the NHS but I am sure they will find other ways to line their pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:56 AM

I have thought Keir Starmer a better choice for a long time - well before the last election - and think he will do a good job. But as we are often reminded, the Conservatives are in power and have a huge majority, so there is almost nothing that the Labour Party can do in practice.

I do agree with those who say that Keir Starmer should not take up the offer to 'work with' the government over this virus - it is nothing more than a chance to share the blame, since the government will still, quite properly, take the decisions. Stick to the role of the opposition to question the government about how well it is handling the coronavirus, praise them where appropriate and criticise them where appropriate, but do not fall into the Lib Dem trap of being the whipping boy for everything that went wrong during the coalition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:00 AM

Rather than talking personalities, I would find it helpful to see people nearer to things than I am discussing principles, remembering what the Labour party is supposed to represent (the clue used to lie in the name)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

Just watched Starmer - he's an opportunist shit with his head up the establishment's arse and an eye on his own career - what more can you expect from The House of Lords
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM

C'mon Jim. Tell us what you really think :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:17 AM

i'll take it you never voted for him then, Jim? whenever anyone slightly more progressive than blair is elected as labour leader they get hammered by the right in the party and of course by the media. there was nothing more sickening to me in recent years than seeing right wing labour queuing up to do everything possible to take down corbyn and the more hopeful members of the party. it will be difficult to stomach the likes of chucka umunna or other repellent tories making conciliatorytory noises.....however, if we want to get anywhere with more progressive politics we will have to be more canny than we have been without diluting the '17 manifesto or the green new deal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

Just remembered something I intended to post the other day. In Marvel's "Black Panther" film someone said being a good man makes it difficult to be a good king. I thought it was pretty true of any leader that has to make life and death choices.

And, yes, I know it is fantasy. I love the super hero genre. It doesn't stop them from being quite profound at times!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:45 AM

"i'll take it you never voted for him then, Jim? "
I can't vote from Ireland but I'd have thought twice before I voted for someone already in the House of Lords without having to get there by selling those who voted for him out (before anybody asks, Benn was born with that particular milestone around his neck and given that, he bore his brden quite well for someone with a built-in deformity)
Corby attracted Socialists back into their traditional and rightful home-place by impressing them with his socialist principle - he put them above his political ambitions and his party's lemming-like tendency to play the Westminster game
I admired Blair as a young man - look what a shit-hole he made of the Labour Party
This Pandemic is going to have to change people's thinking if the British People are going to cme out even where they started, never mind improve their lives      
Already the quick-fix vultures are circling and it hasn't reached its peak yet
The Tories used to have principles of sorts - The Brexit Blunder shod that the door
Now we have an unprincipled, uncaring moron surrounded by a bunch of unelected bullies at the helm
Logic says that in the short term a Government coalition is inevitable - if that coalition is formed by a bunch of Parliamentarians seeking to return things to where they were - what a waste
When Starmer kicked off by accusing his party of being riddled with Jew-haters - that confirmed all my misgivings I didn't have to have been ay Belshazzar's feast to see the writing on the wall
Sorry 'bout that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 09:22 AM

I hope that Hilary Benn is brought back into the shadow cabinet, he's a good man.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 09:32 AM

Well I voted for Becky Long-Bailey because she's a damn sight closer to being a principled socialist than either of the other two. Soft left is about right. It'll be interesting to see how long Starmer can keep up his all-things-to-all-men stance. For now he has to be our hope. I'd like to see Angela Rayner play a big part now. She seems very sure-footed and she doesn't suffer fools gladly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:29 AM

As Starmer only won 35.1% of the vote I am sure many will call it merely advisory and demand another ballot. As Corbyn won the argument many staunch corbinites wil insist he is still King.
After all having heard all these arguments repeatedly apropos "Brexit"
I have no doubt we will hear the tired old mantras all over again.
I do have to concede Starmer was the best of a pathetically poor bunch.
Even Kinnock had far more credibility.
Appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB) in the 2014 New Year Honours for "services to law and criminal justice he rather lowers the bar for Labour candidates. There is nothing of the working class of this particulat laddie with his private education and Oxbridge degree.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:44 AM

”As Starmer only won 35.1% of the vote I am sure many will call it merely advisory and demand another ballot.“

According to the LP website, it was 56.2% of the votes cast.

Unfortunate things aren’t they, facts?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:51 AM

Leave it, John. At least Corbyn and anti-semitism get a rest now. Well, for a day or two. There is nothing that the right wing plant can say about Starmer that would bear comparison with the lies already told by and damage already done by BoJo

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 11:12 AM

"At least Corbyn and anti-semitism get a rest now."
Not as far as I'm concerned it doesn't Dave - sorry
This scurrilous lie lost the Labour Party one of its major chances of returning to its principles since the post war Government - if you believe it won't be re-erected by Iains's friends if principles ever show their uncomfortabl heads in British politics again
I've always felt disappointed that far too few fellow Travellers on this forum found it a bit of a nuisance and avoided putting in their own two-pennyworth
As far as Starmer is concerned 'Put not your trust in Knights of the Realm - their lances not there for decoration - their there for spit-roasting anyone who stands in the way of their ambitions to keep their beds well-feathered
What did the feller say - "keep your friends close but your enemies closer"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 11:14 AM

True enough, Dave. Although I was tempted to say that, the poll being held on the basis of the single transferable vote, the result is a true and secure indication of the ‘will of the (Labour Party) people - considerably more so than the ‘first past the post’ Brexit Referendum result.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 11:17 AM

Unfortunate things aren’t they, facts?

Keir Starmer won 275,780 votes, spoilt ballots and non-voters totaled 293,284 votes, 56.2% of the votes cast or 35.1% of the votes possible. The lack of enthusiasm for any of the candidates is clear, in terms of the absolute numbers “none of the above” was the winner. In comparison in the 1994 leadership election Tony Blair won 507,950 votes…
You are absolutely correct facts are unfortunate, but I always check mine prior to posting. I recommend you do the same.
Once again Guido supplies reliable figures.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 12:10 PM

Re COVID19, stable doors & bolting horses at the Cheltenham Festival, & the Virtual Grand National, my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, questioning "Horses for Courses?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 12:34 PM

Give it a rest please, WAV.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:26 PM

From wiki:
2 April 2020         
Turnout        490,731 (62.58%)[1]
        
Candidate         Keir Starmer         Rebecca Long-Bailey         Lisa Nandy
Popular vote         275,780             135,218                79,597
Percentage          56.2%                   27.6%                  16.2%

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:27 PM

”You are absolutely correct facts are unfortunate, but I always check mine prior to posting. I recommend you do the same.
Once again Guido supplies reliable figures.“

Complete, unadorned tosh.

Re-read your post of 10:29 AM, which I quoted in my post, and pay proper attention to the terms in which it is couched. I responded precisely to what you stated, and in the same terms - and the figure I quoted is correct, as evidenced by the official Labour Party Result Page on the website to which I linked.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

Who cares? Labour are a million miles from government anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:31 PM

And you’ve even agreed with me in your post of 01:26 PM.

Just remind everyone again what you were saying about checking your figures before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:32 PM

You appear to have a sticking key on your keyboard, Bonzo. Been dribbling on it, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM

Hilarious! Give the left the same arguments about the labour leadership election that they applied to the brexit Referendum and watch the flak.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM

"Candidate   Keir Starmer         Rebecca Long-Bailey         Lisa Nandy
Popular vote         275,780             135,218                79,597
Percentage          56.2%                   27.6%                  16.2%

Given that Starmer received more votes than the other two candidates combined any comparison to the referendum vote is irrelevant.

Just someone trolling and flame-baiting it would seem.

As always it is best to ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 03:31 PM

Correct, Raggy. Normal Service will be resumed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:21 PM

The Labour Party membership will never, ever, elect a woman as leader- for the same reason the party is fundamentally antisemitic. For all their talk of equality and progression, regardless of leader, it remains a backward looking socialist party of yesterday.