BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:50 PM

how many years have you spent in the labour party, bozo? how many members - or trade unionists have you spoken to about these matters? this really is complete bullshit. there is no problem with women or with anti-semitism. we do have a problem in the party with people who hate our last leader and have a real problem with anti-establishment policies. jeremy corbyn was too tolerant with these traitors and spent all his time on the back foot because of it. my worry is that keir starmer will be more accommodating with these people. my impression is that the membership want nothing to do with all this infighting and want a positive, united left of centre party that recognises its enmeies and takes the fight to them instead of each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:28 PM

I'd swear too many tories, and even further right nutters,
are far more obsessed with the Labour Party
than an average Labour voter ever is...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:42 PM

Damn good post there, pfr. Spot on, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:32 AM

And the labour nutters?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 03:09 AM

" jeremy corbyn was too tolerant with these traitors "
Absolutely
Now one of them has been elected leader which makes "a United Labour Party" a problem
Unless Labour returns to principles instead of looking for rescuers on white horses who have just stepped up rom their Round Table Labour will become as disunited as the Conservatives have become in the post Referendum years
The only way the Tories have managed to stay afloat after the recent Breasco has been via a putsch to rid itself of anyone of principle
If Labour is not careful that is what SIR KEIR will engineer
The rabid right know this, hence the support he is getting for its representatives here
Can you imagine TR's darlin' boy supporting a Labour vote for as he is this one
Corbyn had all the weaknesses of an inexperienced leader but he has pronciples and a knoweledge of why Labour was set up in the first place
The first thing this twot did was to promise to weed out the 'Jew Haters (should read "opponents of the Israeli Regime")
Wake up and smell the Reichstag burning before it catches a hold fellers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM

the national health service needs to be strengthened and the party that has let it run down need to be punished by the electorate if there is anybody left to vote

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 03:50 AM

"Labour vote for" should read "Labour vote for Corbyn"
Goes without saying but I've just said it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM

The Labour Party membership will never, ever, elect a woman as leader

Says the man who believes Rebecca Long-Bailey should never be in a position of power because she "sounds like a cleaner off Coronation Street"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 AM

The same feller and his mate are also happy to compare black women politicians as ugly animals and support A MISOGYNIST THUG who is happy to pay for sex using taxpayers money
No attacks on the Jewish People - no antisemitism -- simples
THIS IS WHAT REAL ANTISEMITISM LOOKS LIKE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM

The first thing this twot did was to promise to weed out the 'Jew Haters (should read "opponents of the Israeli Regime")
Wake up and smell the Reichstag burning before it catches a hold fellers
Jim
Inflmmatory remarks like above do not hide the reality, spoken by one who knows.

His actual words were: Antisemitism has been a stain on our party.......
and I will tear out this poison by it's roots!"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2020/apr/04/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-acceptance-speech-in-full-video

I imagine the leader knows a tad more about the problem than any commentator on this forum. He starts 8mins 40secs into his speech.
It seems very clear and unequivocal to me.
This is of course backed up by the government quango enquiring into the problem of antisemitism within the Labour party- a dubious honour only shared by the National Front.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/equality-body-launches-investigation-of-labour-antisemitism-claims
There are those who continually bury their heads in the sand and try to deny there is a problem, but the electorate perceives otherwise.
From the Guardian post election:
Graham Jones, the former Labour whip, said the campaign became so bad in his constituency of Hyndburn that canvassers began to play a form of “Corbyn bingo” as they counted the votes leaking away from usual Labour supporters.

“Four out five voters would not vote for Corbyn and his policies. Door one wouldn’t vote for him because he was scruffy; the next person wouldn’t vote for him because of antisemitism in the party; the next because of connections with Hamas; and the next because he seemed unable to lead. On one road, you might get the full set,” he said.

The wilderness beckons!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:40 AM

As the quip has it, where there's smoke there's sometimes a fire. But sometimes there's a smoke machine.

That you are convinced there is no anti-Semitism is not enough, Jim. I know quite a few people who normally votes Labour and have no connection whatever with any Jewish relatives, neighbours etc, but were still reluctant to vote Labour in the last election because of the anti-Semitism charges.

In the end, the only people who can declare Labour 'free from smoke' are those who raised the smoke alarm. Starmer knows that, so it was right that he raised the issue in his acceptance speech and vowed to sort it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:50 AM

Looking forward to our Tesco delivery this afternoon!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

The new leader has a poisoned chalice admirably outlined by an opinion piece in Unherd.
https://unherd.com/2020/04/the-last-thing-labour-needs-is-unity/


Unity. According to Sir Keir Starmer, it’s the pre-requisite for Labour to re-establish itself as a serious party of government. As he put it recently (and has said repeatedly): “I don’t think there’s any victory without unity.”
Instead of seeking to assuage the anger of Corbynite members because their hero will no longer be leader, Sir Keir should confront them and — as Neil Kinnock did with Militant in the 1980s — highlight the grotesque chaos of having such people in a mainstream party.

Had Neil Kinnock not fought and defeated Militant, Labour would have ceased to exist as a mainstream party in the 1980s. The situation today is of course different, but the same dynamic holds; if Sir Keir refuses to fight the hard Left, Labour will continue on its current trajectory and cease to exist.
It’s obvious why he won’t. For one thing, the hard Left now dominates Labour’s National Executive Committee by 21 votes to 13

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

"That you are convinced there is no anti-Semitism is not enough, Jim"
It is up to those making the accusation of serious antisemitism to provide examples of attacks on Jewish People - so far there have been a tiny handful which, in my opinion have arisen because Israel has equated its own policies with being Jewish by making critiscism of those policies "ANTISEMITIC"
Up to Crobyn declaring support for Palestine, there had not been a whiff of an antisemitism in The Labour Party - not one
Within a month of that statement being made, Labours 'Friends of Israel' were invited to Jerusalem, where it attended a meting with members of the Knesset - a few weeks later these claims started
Yes - non Jews have made these claims - many are 'Friends of Israel'
These are typical
Loise Ellman - Friend of Israel spent a year in Jerusalem
Lucianna Berger Director of Labour Friends of Israel - romantically linked to Tory Blurr's son

Others are part of the 'New Labour' crowd who have been trying to get rid of Corbyn since he appeared on the scene - go and check
One of the Jewish Labour MPs who claimed of being antisemitically harassed is a self declared admirer of Netanyahu and was invited to rallies and private meetings in Israel

I have been following these complaints since they began - my family have been involved in opposing attacks on Jews since before I was born - my grandmother was arrested for hitting Mosley with a stone and my father volunteered to fight in Spain when he learned what was happening to the Jews in Germany - according to these people I am an antisemite

Israel is run by an extremist right-wing regime guilty of human rights abuses and war crimes - they have persistently been saved from standing trial by over thirty US UN vetoes
In 1982 they facilitated the greatest organised massacre of civilian since since WW2 when their army armed and opened the gates to killers who massacred up to 3,500 unarmed refugees, those trying to esacape were turned back by the Israeli army
Eye-witness, Jewish American nurse, Ellen Seigal has dedicated her life to bringing Israel to justice - she is "antisemitic" too
The only antisemitism here is that by those who would make actions such as these "Jewish"
Tell me what of what I have written is not true - nobody has so far
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:42 AM

See - moe support from Tommy's friend
If that doesn't confirm Starmer's pedigree - nothing will
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:29 AM

I second every word of your post, Jim. You could also have mentioned other detestables such as John Mann, Margaret Hodge and Ruth Smeeth, disreputable and dishonest to their cores. I must say, I hold out little hope that Starmer will make much progress. Still, as they say, elections are there for governments to lose. By any measure, the disastrous way the Tories have handled this crisis ought to condemn them to permanent opposition. But they'll no doubt get away with it. Plenty of big guns on their side ultimately, and Starmer has all that vacillating-over-brexit baggage with him which will no doubt be fully exploited. Looks like we're going back to New Labour but without the charisma.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

And one thing that simply must not happen is any sort of "national government." It's fine to say that we'll work constructively with the government, whatever that's supposed to mean, but what's needed now more than ever, confronted by the disastrous shower that are currently in power, is firm, critical and conspicuous holding of the government to account. Nothing too cosy, please, that will end up with Labour "sharing the blame" for this current shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:51 AM

Mann
Anti Corbynite Baron in the House of Lords
Mann has faced criticism for allegedly perpetuating racial stereotypes in an out of print booklet he produced on antisocial behaviour in 2007
Hodge
"In July 2018, the National Executive Committee (NEC) adopted a code of conduct on antisemitism which was based on the IHRA's working definition while omitting or modifying examples of antisemitism, including defining how criticism of Israel can be antisemitic.[62] Hodge subsequently said that Labour's refusal to adopt the full set of unamended examples for disciplinary purposes "make the party a hostile environment for Jews. It chose to entrench antisemitism....
Jewish anti-Zionist groups signed a letter of opposition to the IHRA definition, calling it a "distorted definition of antisemitism to stifle criticism of Israel".
Labour Friends of Israel

Ruth Smeeth - a doozie, this one !!!
In June 2016, Ruth Smeeth resigned her position in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet as Parliamentary Private Secretary for the shadow Northern Ireland and Scotland teams. This was part of more than 60 coordinated resignations from Corbyn’s shadow cabinet organised by plotters with the aim of precipitating a no-confidence vote and forcing his resignation. The plot failed.

Smeeth then staged a stunt at a press conference where Corbyn was launching a report into the manufactured claims from Labour’s right wing that the party under his leadership was anti-Semitic. Smeeth stormed out of the meeting, with her office later claiming she had been reduced to tears. She made an official complaint to the party after claiming, “a Jeremy Corbyn supporter” had “used traditional anti-Semitic slurs to attack me for being part of a ‘media conspiracy.’

Smeeth claimed that under Corbyn, Labour was not a “safe space for British Jews”. She called on Corbyn to stand down as the leader of the party – “immediately and make way for someone with the backbone to confront racism and anti-Semitism in our party and in the country.”

In the meantime, the Chicago based news outlet – The Electronic Intifada reported in December 2016 in an article entitled – UK Labour MP Ruth Smeeth was funded by Israel lobby:

   “Official records show that Ruth Smeeth was funded by two ultra-wealthy figures from the same pro-Israel organisation she once worked for. But these relationships have been overlooked by the British press, which have extensively reported on her allegations of anti-Semitic abuse at the hands of Jeremy Corbyn supporters.”

Good, honesr politicians dedicated to their cause (whatever that is!!)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM

The reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcuoEVcsLcs

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 07:03 AM

Can I just add to this that blurring the lines between attacks on Jews and criticism of Israel is then most dangerous thing to have happened to the Jewish people since the end of the War - it denigrates the Jewish State by defending actions which would have been tried in the UN had America not intervened
It also paints a target on every Jew on the planet for claiming they are responsible for crimes comparable to those which led to the extermination of six million Jews
The first people to draw attention to this were Albert Einstein and thirty of his Jewish fellow scientists in 1949, shortly after the Jewish State was founded
Read this and weep
ndependent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Monique
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

Jim's link

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Thanks a million Monique
You once explained how to do the Independent but I seem to have lost the knack
Keep well
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Monique
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM

You're welcome! You have the whole thing explained here.
I try to keep well, thanks.
To the tune of The Wagoner's Lad
"Oh, oh, hard is our fortune in these virus times,
We're always controlled, we're always confined
Controlled by the police until we're inside
And slaves to the TV, avoiding to die…"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:59 AM

And John Mann, when he was a Labour MP, stage-managed his aggressive attack on Ken Livingstone. Despite being one of the most passionate anti-racists in the country, Ken was eventually driven out of the party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:01 AM

Thanks again M
I've always assumed you're in France - do I have that wrong ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Monique
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:11 AM

No, you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

It 's interesting to compare the kind of explicit hostility and mockery faced in the House of Commons by James Keir Hardie some one hundred and fifty years ago with contemporary conduct and behaviour. No doubt Sir Keir will be more "electable" than other leaders of the Labour Party, in the co-ordinated expressions of opinion from influential participants. After all, Labour politicians of the right background and behaviour can move smoothly from the party to other rather more rewarding positions, almost as if they were of the Tory Party but didn't acknowledge it.

Excellent points on the very obvious, and crude, drive to characterise criticism of a political policy pursued by some elements of a group as being equivalent to insulting that group in its entirety. Obvious, crude, useful - and allowed to be repeated incessantly no matter how often, and reasonably, the false equivalence is demonstrated and refuted. Interesting to observe the progress of things. Interesting times in which we are still for the moment living.   Exits ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM

Merci
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:07 AM

Good piece by Will Hutton

Boris Johnson is not a man to be trusted

Not that we didn't know that already!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:21 AM

But outside the opinion pieces of the Guardian in the real world:

Public support for Boris Johnson's coronavirus response soars

A YouGov/Sky News also poll found 72 per cent think Johnson has handled the crisis well, which is a 23 per cent increase from just a week ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

While simultaneously:


In a week that saw many questions over the handling of testing in the UK, there has been a significant fall in government approval of the handling of the Coronavirus crisis. In the space of a week, net approval almost halved from +42% to +23%.

Twitter feed from Opinium

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:18 AM

Citing 'public opinion' when it flies against the facts of the matter is populism at its most manipulative, as Brexit has proved
To claim that those working on the health front are lying or mistaken when they say this is not being handled well is downright insulting

THREE DAYS AGO
FOUR DAYS AGO

JOHNSON ADMITS ****- UP WHILE BUM KISSERS CONTINUE TO LIE

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:24 AM

UGove was set up by a bunch of right-wing Tories and is notorious for seeking only convenient answers
It's founder, Stephan Shakespear, originally owned the equally iffy "Conservativehome'
You may as well stick with criminal bloggers like Guido
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:54 AM

Boris Johnson's popularity - like that of the majority of world leaders - has risen significantly during the coronavirus crisis.

As tracked by Ipsos MORI, the prime minister's satisfaction ratings had improved to 52% by mid-March.

Polling by Number Cruncher more recently found that Johnson's satisfaction ratings had risen to 72%.

But Mr Johnson is by no means alone.

At a time of unprecedented global crisis, and with only one or two exceptions, leaders the world over are experiencing rising popularity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 12:20 PM

This becomes mindless
You may as well claim Trump's has, which is possibly true
Answer the criticisms of the poor bastards who are fighting on our behalf please otherwise you are putting the safety of the British people below that of a notoriously flawed leader and holding the medical workers who claim he isn't in contempt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

Sunday

***Starmer announces top team***

16.57: Anneliese Dodds appointed Shadow Chancellor
16.57: Lisa Nandy appointed Shadow Foreign Secretary
16.57: Nick Thomas-Symonds appointed Shadow Home Secretary
16.57: Rachel Reeves appointed Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
16.57: Jonathan Ashworth remains Shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care

******

16.57: Angela Smith remains Shadow Leader of the Lords
16.57: Nick Brown remains Labour’s Chief Whip

15.53: Jon Trickett sacked as Shadow Cabinet Office Minister
15.26: Ian Lavery sacked as Labour Party Chairman
15.23: Barry Gardiner sacked as Shadow International Trade Secretary

Saturday

    Diane Abbott and John McDonnell resign from their front bench positions, prior to Starmer’s election as leader

I see on Marr's program Starmer is already pitching to delay brexit. Luckily, with a stonking majority Boris, can ignore him.
We know he is a rejoiner! As for his front bech, I have never heard of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

Meanwhile the conservatives run true to form.

Rees-Mogg cashing in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM

Iains - wot.. like..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qERZgLv3MKg


Showing snowflakes like boris and trump how to impose a proper populist macho lockdown...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:15 PM

Rachel bloody Reeve in the shadow cabinet. I might have to leave the party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:18 PM

I never joined, I just vote for our wannabe MPs and hope they're up to the job
if they ever win...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 PM

BoJo has gone to hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 PM

BoJo has gone to hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:25 PM

Starmer was superb on Andrew Marr, such a pity that the all the lefty pefty labour party could offer before was useless wimpy Corbyn!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:48 PM

I strongly hinted earlier that boris shouldn't trust
any food, drink, or medicines sent up to him from gove...


btw.. wtf is a "pefty"...?????????

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:20 PM

It rhymes with lefty, PFR. I can't think of anything to rhyme with greedy bankers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:25 PM

righty shiteys...

actually.. when I googled "pefty" it was showing up randomly in a few archaic texts..

A Latin word maybe...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:18 PM

BBC NEWS

"Coronavirus: Boris Johnson admitted to hospital.."

.. must be the first thing he's ever admitted...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:09 AM

Pefty?   It seems to be a compliment.


Peft
Something extravagant in beauty. Very gorgeous and pleasing to the eye. Nothing could top the amazing sight of a peft.

Urban Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:54 AM

This just rumbles on and will continue to until begin to discuss what they expect from a Labour Party
I expect them to offer a solution to the downward turn that our countries (( include Ireland) have taken
Here we have a fairer system than Britain here, even the losers get a say in the running of the country - theoretically
At the last election, Sinn Fein was obviously the people's choice and would now be running Ireland had they been able to afford enough candidates - they are quite likely to win the next election
The two major parties haven't yet devised a cunning pln to exclude them from the Government that is being formed, but they're working on it
Unlike Britain, there hasn't been a campaign of hate to keep them from taking their prize, just a few rumblings - we tend to have a less hysterical
press
Interesting days

I have reservations about S.F. (not the usual ones), but they offer welcome and needed change rather than rhetoric and personalities and they have representatives who seem to know what people want and need and care about it
I believe that if you scratch the surface of any people, especially those in the level of trouble we are, that's what all but the mindless few want (I refuse to believe there are enough of them to matter)

I'm exceedingly grateful to our extreme rightists here - their postings of support for Sir K - if I had any doubt about my summing up of him, they've put them fairly firmly to rest
"The also serve who only stand and prate"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:02 AM

By the sounds of some of the reporting, Johnson's condition could be very serious. I for one hope he recovers: I have said before I would rather have Boris than Raab any time.

But if the worst comes to it, such is the oddness of our political system that neither the person those who voted Tory voters voted for (Boris) or against (Corbyn) would be in place, yet we have the best part of five years before the next election. Moreover in the leadership election, Raab was eliminated in the second ballot, before, say, Rory Stewart. So we don't even seem to have the person in charge the Tory MPs favoured (Agreed, we have a very different set of MPs now to those who voted at the time.)