BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:00 AM

The Health Service has always been an anathema to Tory philosophy which hangs a price tag on whatever if it can
There has never been a limit on how much is spent on weapons - the lives and health of the British people have always come a poor second which is why this and any tight wing administration need to be closely scrutinised, particularly at a time like this
We already know that Dom Scummings was weighing up the possibility of ditching the elderly - didn't that being revealed lead to a farcical scrambling of denial among those who have become dependent on him for thinking up such penny-pinching schemes on their behalf ?
More of the same to come I'm sure   
We really are expendable to these people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM

"tight wing"
I was going to apologise for the typo, but considering who and what is under discussion - maybe not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:09 AM

More like, Hello? Delusion calling! The Tories have now had ten years. Trying to shift attention to what Labour did in an election campaign does absolutely nothing to address what devastation you Tories have wreaked on public services, including care, education and the NHS. Once again: if you don't agree with that, give me the counter-argument with evidence.

Is this standard of left-wing discussion?
Present a series of personal opinions dressed up as facts, and insist that they require facts to give the opposing view.

Typical!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM

From a live feed:

Councils in England have been asked to house all rough sleepers by the weekend, Sky News is reporting, though the government has yet to confirm this.
====

Odd that no one seemed to worry much about that before. It sounds like - if the reports are true - it is thought that the councils could do it in 24h or so if the will was there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:50 AM

I haven't stated any opinions as facts, Nigel. In fact, I've twice challenged Stanron (that paragon of right-wing standard of debate....just look at his last two posts...) to counter my claims with facts in evidence. He has signally failed both times, preferring instead to make lame accusations about leftie negativity, etc. I could ask you the same: if the things I've said are in any way wrong, I cordially invite you to present evidence to that effect instead of indulging in the same brand of Stanron-nonsense (which at least avoids your having to confront Tory predations in embarrassment, I suppose).

I'll never defend Labour kicking off prescription charges, PFI or the academicisation of schools. In both those latter cases, what started as small but wrong-headed initiatives have ballooned gleefully UNDER THE TORIES into massive corrupting blights, so it ill-behoves Tories to keep on castigating Labour for them. If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them? Attacking Labour for them is both dishonest and downright hypocritical, both trademarks of Toryism, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM

.... Dom Scummings ....

It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. Stick to facts and well argued opinions instead of resorting to playground insults, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:53 AM

And, DMcG, isn't it amazing that the Tories can now suddenly find zillions to battle this crisis, whereas a few short months ago in the election campaign they were accusing Jeremy Corbyn of indulging in fairyland over his far humbler spending proposals...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM

How often did you wade in on Iains when he was calling Corbyn magic grandad and Compo, and more, Doug? How about little jimmie? What about abbacus in Iains' latest post? Or does your selectivity betray your personal leanings? In my view you could well be right, it doesn't help. But lampooning politicians in words or cartoons is time-honoured. It's either all of 'em or none of 'em, surely, Doug...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:10 AM

If you look at the Nickname thread, Steve, you will find that I objected to the use of Magic Grandad, amongst others. As I said above, ... whatever side of the political spectrum you are on. Two wrongs don't make a right.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

On a cheerful note, Richard Thompson is apparently doing a concert on Facebook - "Join Richard this Sunday at 1pm PST / 4pm EST / 9pm GMT for a Facebook Live concert for Parents & Grandparents Who Are Staying Home".

More than that I do not know!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:14 AM

If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them?
They did.
Fact dear boy! Fact!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM

Boris Johnson has Covid 19

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM

Stay safe Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM

As my sister said, how many has he infected? What is the state of the cabinet now?

Remember the recovery rate is 80% or better, so he will probably be ok. And I for one would far rather Johnson in charge than Raab.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:40 AM

Without wishing to Labour the point, Doug, you waded in on Jim today over Dom Scummings but left Iains alone with abbacus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:41 AM

Stay very safe Boris.
But why do I have an advert onscreen, while I type, of a toilet bowl being cleaned with a can of coke while advertising bowl sparkle?
Too deep for me I am afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM

I didn't intend to capitalise the word "labour" there, in case anyone thought I was trying to do a clever play on words.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 AM

So how come he got tested, then?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:48 AM

on the advice of the chief medical officer

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:49 AM

Because he has priority, like we do with Supermarket deliveries.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:09 AM

.... I objected to the use of Magic Grandad, amongst others.

You have obviously made no effort to see what I actually wrote in the other thread but abbacus was included. I gave, in all, four examples, three of which had been posted by Iains - two against politicians and one against a Mudcat member. The fourth example was posted by a Mudcatter of a different political persuasion against a Conservative MP. They were the insults I could recall at the time. It was not a comprehensive list but enough to illustrate my point.

Whataboutism isn't the best tactic to use in any argument.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:13 AM

"It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. "
I suggest you take a look at how the Tory press has ridiculed CORBYN AND HIS COLLEAGUES to the level that Punch depicted the the Irish during the Famine and even lower, since he first appeared on the scene
The Government supported trumped up charges of anti-Semitism, they attacked him over his age despite having historically been led by leaders far older and supported on controversial subjects in the House of Lords by old men who have to have their afternoon nap before they can make it to the ballot box
Their level of open hatred (based, no doubt on fear) of Corbyn is far beyond anything I can remember
These people may not be popular among the great and good, but Corbyn received a far greater level of support from rank and file members than has any Tory leader before or since his arrival
And you complain about my being "not nice" about a non elected proven bullying thug who hasn't enough respect for his employers or the public he is supposed to be working on behalf of to even DRESS PROPERLY whwn appearing in public
His WELL-THOUGH-OUT LANGUAGE when recruiting staff sums up his contemptuous attitude to those he is working for
That a Government steering Britain though first a crass decision to leave Europe and now a world wide pandemic should rely on such a ridiculous individual to steer Britain, or even sell tickets for these perilous voyages is a plain display of their contempt for us
Give us a break Doug - I thought you were better than that
This clown caricatures himself far better than anyboy else coul
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

These people may not be popular among the great and good, but Corbyn received a far greater level of support from rank and file members than has any Tory leader before or since his arrival

But not from Joe Public. They deserted Labour in droves, even from the labour heartlands. The biggest drubbing since 1935.
Now Boris is King and Corbyn a total failure -FACT!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

"Whataboutism isn't the best tactic to use in any argument."
Yet you people use it all the time - Ia'ns jus has, harking back to a previous labour government
In general and ongiong aspects such as this when decisions and rhetoric become habit, whataboutism sums up a general approach to Governance ather than a one-off mistake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM

On the people signing up to be volunteers distributing food, contacting those isolated by phone and so forth: no one I know who volunteered has been contacted yet to help. Does anyone else on here know someone who has? Or how long it might take before we are contacted?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:26 AM

Cummins 'Rambling Blog' to help Britain through Brexit
dominiccummings.com/2020/01/02/two-hands-are-a-lot-were-hiring-data-scientists-project-managers-policy-experts-assorted-weirdos/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM

I'll never defend Labour kicking off prescription charges, PFI or the academicisation of schools. In both those latter cases, what started as small but wrong-headed initiatives have ballooned gleefully UNDER THE TORIES into massive corrupting blights, so it ill-behoves Tories to keep on castigating Labour for them. If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them?

Part of the reason the NHS is short of money is the PFI initiatives signed up to by the Labour Government. The ongoing cost of these initiatives (paid from the NHS budget) was kept off the balance sheet of the government at that time.
These PFI initiatives were contracts with the providers. The Conservative Government could only end these by either reneging on the contracts (illegal), or buying them out (very costly as a 'one-off' payment which would fall into current expenditure).
How do you think that the Conservatives could 'abandon them'?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:57 AM

Since Nigel and Iains seem to in some disagreement on whether PFI has continued under the Tories, it might be useful to look at this Wiki page, and in particular the new contracts put in place after 2010. The contracts are conveniently listed in a table towards the bottom. Yes, the majority are before the Tories gained power (in a coalition), but there are a good number afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:59 AM

With a prediliction for magic money trees the economic knowledge of the left could safely be written upon a postage stamp. This is due to the fact that the most vociferous leached off the public teat all their lives. They cannot appreciate the link between graft and reward. It is not in their genetic makeup. Nationalise and destroy is their only mantra.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:17 AM

"But not from Joe Public. "
Joe Public relies on a non-existent unbiased media for its information - what else do you expect - those uninvolved in politics have sweet f...all else to go on - even Joe Goebbels knew that
Our report found that 75% of press coverage misrepresents Jeremy Corbyn – we can't ignore media bias anymore (THE INDEPENDENT
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html
You regard the media with contempt when it doesn't correspond with criminal blogger 'Stained Staines's' blogs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:21 AM

Dum de dum de dum de dum!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM

If by "graft" is meant hard work (rather than some kind of corruption), I too cannot understand the link in this country between hard work and reward. Without going into any detail, or piling up examples of various kinds of work at widely differing rates of pay, I'd just use the observation that a GP, or a Practice Nurse, does real work of more genuine value in one shift than some highly paid people do in their entire "working" lives. As one particularly unpleasant politician put it a generation back, though his targets were different, they would never be missed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM

I'm glad to see that the non- cash declaring self employed will at last get their comeuppance under the Coronavirus Support for self employed rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:52 AM

Not making an argument Doug. We had abbacus and Scummings close together in THIS thread but you remarked on just the one. However, point taken, and I retract gracefully (hopefully).

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:00 AM

YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN' YET :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:33 AM

A Question Time rant from Lancet editor Richard Horton is doing the rounds this morning after he savaged the “national scandal” of “being in this position. We knew in the last week of January that this was coming – the message from China was absolutely clear that a new virus with pandemic potential was hitting cities.” Hindsight is a wonderful thing…

Richard claims the message by the end of January from China was absolutely clear – why then, in late January, did he Tweet:
Richard Horton
A call for caution please. Media are escalating anxiety by talking of a “killer virus” + “growing fears”. In truth, from what we currently know, 2019-nCoV has moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity. There is no reason to foster panic with exaggerated language.
2,988
7:18 AM - Jan 24, 2020


Richard Horton
And, when one examines the global response to 2019-nCoV, Chinese authorities have acted quickly and decisively to control the outbreak. They have shared information rapidly and transparently. Meanwhile, WHO has been impressive: clear and confident decisions and communication.
251
7:29 AM - Jan 24, 2020

Richard’s own journal, The Lancet, included a report on the effects of Coronavirus in China published weeks later in the February edition, which said “2019-nCoV still needs to be studied deeply in case it becomes a global health threat” – implying they did not, at the time, see the virus as a global health threat. Richard is arguing that governments around the world should have seen what he, the editor of one of the world’s premier medical journals, only sees in retrospect…

Typical BBC behaviour on question time. Introduce with one hat and the activist inside springs out with another. His wiki entry is quite clear. Perhaps the Lancet requires a neutral editor.
Brought by Guido and no truth was harmed!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:45 AM

Just discovered how hopelessly vile "breakfast tea" is. Just trying to make our Earl Grey last longer!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:19 AM

What a relief it would be if everyone would stop squabbling.

Read this and then think about how to help your neighbors, and even those Mudcatters you're always bickering with. This could come to your town sooner than you think.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:35 AM

To be honest, Steve, I never even noticed the abbacus comment. It was uncapitalised and appeared in the middle of a sentence, half-way a post in excess of one screen length on my tablet. I tend to skim read long posts and those of any length from certain posters. I had to do a search to find it, and even that wasn't straight forward ad Iains spelt it with

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM

The view in Ireland is that while it is possible that the situation migt ease up in a month or so, there is likely to be a second wave on its way
It was announced that China seems to be on top of the problem but presumably the same will apply
I've never been happy about China's grip on its people but when the British Establishment controls and manipulates the necessary information to guarantee democracy - whence the difference, apart in technique

Sorry Stilly, (with respect, of course) were not going to be able to discuss this problem fully if we're expected to act like a pack of nodding dogs otherwise all we'd do is go around wailing "Oh calamity"
We've already managed to worm out how Government supporters believe health facilities should be distributed - presumably they reflect the views of those they support
These are the type of things we need to know
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:49 AM

Done it again! You would think that I would have learnt by now.

To continue:-

.... two Cs, while you and I only used one. Even if I had noticed it, I had already commented on it elsewhere, so I may or may not have included it.

Jim's post was shorter. The name was capitalised and stood out

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:54 AM

For completeness:-

.... abbaccus ....

It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. Stick to facts and well argued opinions instead of resorting to playground insults, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

Some positive news!
Dyson designed a new state of the art ventilator in 10 days. At least 15,000 will be built in Wiltshire with 10,000 going straight to the NHS, and 4,000 expected to be sent to other countries in need. Dyson said the company had designed and built an entirely new ventilator, called the "CoVent," since he received a call 10 days ago from UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
"This new device can be manufactured quickly, efficiently and at volume," Dyson added, saying that the new ventilator has been designed to "address the specific needs" of coronavirus patients.
A spokesperson for the company, which is best known for its vacuum cleaners and hand dryers, said the ventilators would be ready by early April.


https://order-order.com/2020/03/27/on-the-brighter-side/#comments
I have a little sweepstake on who posts the first negative comment.
Go on, Make my day

---

This is why no one likes to have you participate in thread - you shoot yourself in the foot with nasty remarks when simple news would have been sufficient. Consider this the first, loser.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Doug - sorry can't remember if we have agreed or disagreed in the past..

But in the midst of pandemic crisis, in an already over long and over convoluted thread,
do we really need several posts extending a somewhat petty irrelevant thread derail 'bee in your bonnet'
about 'name calling' and spelling...

It's taken me bloody ages catching up reading this thread from where I left off to go to bed..
I don't skim, but treat folks with sufficient respect
reading every word of threads that take my interest..

Please take this as intended in good humour,

But it's only fair I be consistent in my 'bee in bonnet' about long winded hijacks and pedantry
in mudcat threads...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:54 PM

Respect, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM

Define 'ready'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:21 PM

PFR,

I made my comment in response to Jim's post and that would have been it. All of my subsequent posts were in response to Steve who, while not wishing to "labour the point" nor "make an argument", repeatedly brought up a perceived imbalance in my original post. If you have a problem, take it up with Steve.

The only reason I am posting this message is that you have decided to extend the discussion. Physician, heal thyself!

That is all I have to say on the subject.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM

Doug - I was awkwardly aware of that possible irony..

bugger.. dunnit again...!!!

But in a a robust forum politics debate between big grumpy old git grown ups,
robust mickey taking language and humourous banter should not be policed and judged by
self-appointed morality officers..???

Far more important realities concern, even frighten, us right now..

..and if we can't lighten the tension by taking the piss out of govt and opposition politicans,
who all badly f@cked up to some degree...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM

A sad irony re coronavirus covid19 is that, whilst English have become the world's worst when it comes to copying other cultures (yoga, American pop, etc.), we are not copying the mask-wearing of nations coping relatively well with this virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM

Masks don't work.