BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:02 PM

"PFR you were the last person on my mind."

I'll happily accept that.. if Piers Morgan is nearer the front of your mind...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

Iains - That was a good post, and the Iains persona I can more positively relate to in debate...


Today's news of the covid death of a 21 year old UK woman with no underlying health problems,
is a significant cause for concern...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 05:01 PM

Well I may be out of date as I type this, but I understand that the death of the young woman "caused by coronavirus" is currently just a claim by her close family. Not saying it isn't true, but let's get confirmation of this before we start getting all scary about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:09 PM

So BigEars gets a test, even though he's not in hospital, unlike everyone else not in hospital, and he's travelled to his second/third/fourth home, against all the advice about travelling to your second home that everyone else is expected to adhere to (we're almost at the point of throwing flour bombs at the selfish braindeads who have been coming to Cornwall in their droves in caravans, motor homes or to seek refuge in their second homes...). It's still good old little Britain, innit, one law for them, one for the plebs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:58 AM

'What are the safe distances for forelock-tugging, arse-licking, gun-loading and other personal services your majesties?'

'one doesn't bother with that nonsense, witchell'

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: BobL
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:30 AM

Trump seems to have contacted a brain-eating virus
To quote Dorothy Parker - "How can they tell?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM

The performance of Nadhim Zahawi on Newsnight last night (12:08 minutes in) was frankly embarrassing. If that was supposed to reassure the government is on top of things, it failed dismally. You cannot agree to both the statements the UK has 8,000 ventilators and it has 12,000 unless you are able to explain the discrepancy, and he could not. And things went downhill from there, in my opinion. He was certainly unable to give confidence that we might have the ventilators in time for the anticipated peak in a few weeks time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:44 AM

Steve Shaw's comments about 'big ears' may have some relevance, but they sound like sour grapes. In fact, identifying the Prince of Wales as 'big ears' suggests some degree of envy there.
The Telegraph yesterday made clear that he was due to be staying at Birkhall, and that, having been in close contact with Prince Albert of Monaco (already tested positive), he was right to be tested.
With health being a devolved matter in Scotland, the testing criteria there may differ from the criteria in England.
Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:00 AM

I'm very happy with the ears I've got, Nige.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:17 AM

You cannot agree to both the statements the UK has 8,000 ventilators and it has 12,000 unless you are able to explain the discrepancy,
According to the Dpt. of Health and Social care the NHS currently possesses 5,000 adult ventilators and 900 child ventilators. Private health care has another 1200. These are figures from early March. A sorce quotes a capacity to build 400/week Hamilton Medical in Switzerland, but many of those will servuce existing contracts.
It is by no means clear where the additional 900/4900 have comefrom. Most military hospitals have closed but may supply a small number, perhaps another small number are stockpiled. With the situation in flux a definitive figure is impossible to derive, it likely changes by the day.
Yet more negativity from the usual.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM

Not surprisingly, you miss the point. It was not up to you to explain the discrepancy. It was his job to explain the discrepancy. For example one possible explanation might have been - and I am not saying it is, but it could have been - "We have 8000 actively in use, and another 4,000 have been received into our distribution centres. They are going through the standard quality checks before going out to the wards. That process should be completed by the weekend."

A nice, clear account of the reason for two different figures. And any other reasonable explanation would have not only sufficed, but would have shown the government to be on top of the situation. Instead, they could not explain it and it is left to others to scrabble for ways that might - or might not - account for the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:51 AM

while i have always been a red/green old peace and love type socialist i too love our countries. these are some of the things i love - pubs and how i can go into any or most, understand what the atmosphere is and behave accordingly, good beer, beautiful countryside especially in the highlands, people around small club football in particularly, but good football played well. and other niche interests of many older working men. music tradition, live music, festivals particularly, the radical tradition - george orwell,tony benn, michael foot to caroline lucas - socialist climbing and reading groups type of thing. our language and the literature that has come from it. ivor cutler and michael marra to karine polwart and richard thompson among many others. i love our dry wit and self deprecation and how we will never accept a fascist (in the last euro elections green mayor majid majid, muslim refugee was elected with over 200,000 votes while yaxley-lennon got 2/3 thousand.) or any self-important bull-shitter. i could go on as i'm boring myself - (though i'm sure you are all fascinated!) long and short of it is - i like just about everything except what comes from the tories and their war and royal family driven establishment - what they tell me is patriotism is vast inequalities and broken lives. telling a generation of our young men to walk in an orderly fashion toward german machine guns is not patritism - it is a hideous crime against our people that must never be forgotten or forgiven
blah...blah....bla...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 09:39 AM

"Covisiousness" of course - can't get my head around new words, as good as they are
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM

The EU fiddles while Rome burns.

Von der Leyen
“The single market has to function,” she said.

“It is not good when a member state takes unilateral action. I have seen travel bans and controls put in place. But let’s look together… certain controls may be justified but action has to be proportionate.”

After trying to retain control over the United Kingdom’s state aid rules in post-Brexit talks, the Commission last night sanctioned a £10.7 million Danish scheme to refund events canceled to prevent the spread of coronavirus.
Best not talk about confiscated surgical masks and handcleaner bound for the UK

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:15 AM

"He was pointing out that all levels of UK lefties are presenting negativity and fault finding criticism..."

No he wasn't. He was pointing to the whingeing of ONE left-wing celebrity, namely Emma Thompson, as complained about by ONE "news"paper columnist. Comment is free but facts are sacred. Read the article (holding your nose, preferably).

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:29 AM

Waste of time Steve
Britain left Europe in order to go it alone and not have to be forced to co-operate with other countries in a non-crisis situation - now, at a time of crisis, he whinges at other groups of countries who decide to , guess what "go it alone and not have to be forced to co-operate with other countries"
I wonder what assistance Britain is offering to Europe at the present time!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM

"Best not talk about confiscated surgical masks "
Best not
At present the death toll in Britain is in the low hundreds and less than 1%
In Europe the death rate averages 4 to 5%, in France around 2,500 have died
Had the situation been reversed a and surgical equipment been passing through Britain heading for France, does anybody honestly believe that our lot would allow it to pass though
Flag-waggers like our friend would be screaming themselves hoarse shouting "traitor" - so would bumwipes like the Daily Mail, who headlined this ***** nonsense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM

Brexit or Breathing?

It seems crazy to me to put so much trust in Dyson getting a ventilator ready when it looks like it will be September at the earliest for mass production, whereas we need it in a few weeks at most. By some accounts I have read, there is a factory in Galway that is moving from an 8hr workday to a 24h one, but we won't get any of those as they are destined for the EU scheme.

Others people will, undoubtedly, have a different opinion, which I imagine will be some variation of "nothing to worry about, we are British so will solve it."

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:53 PM

Did anyone ever hear of furloughing before?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:58 PM

Give it a few years and the tories will probably erect memorials and statues
to the brave front-line essential workers
who gladly sacrificed their lives for Britain...

That'll be a glorious PR photo opportunity...!!!

My wife's deputy head is now self isolating with a cough,
after one week baby sitting a handful of essential worker's kids..

She's in the 50 - 60 risk group...

My mrs is scheduled for her brave essential service on the compulsary rota,
during the predicted peak..

She's nearer 60...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

Good luck to you both PFR - hope all goes well for you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:43 PM

Jim - cheers, I look forward to your posts here..

.. well if they weren't so rapidly deleted...

But fortunately I managed to catch some of your today's 'disappeared' earlier writing, just in the nick of time...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM

I see the Government is now saying the failure to join the EU scheme was 'an administrative error'.

why is the world plagued by these administrators who keep doing things on their own without those on authority knowing anything about it? Odd isn't it?

It could not just be a threadbare excuse, could it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:23 PM

I thought the Tory-Brexiteer-Banana-Bunch were fed up with 'unelected bureaucrats' running things?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:59 PM

BWM - maybe dom is hoping the one's not already weeded out
will be taken care of by targeted covid infections...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:05 PM

Thought I'd posted a reply PFR - must have been deleted :-)
I hadn't realised there had been any deleted today - must be losing my touch
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:14 PM

a little deletion here, a little deletion there..

that's the first baby step towards book burning...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:23 PM

Indeed PFR. May you and your better half keep safe.
With talk of authortarianism it is worth pointing out that the Corvid-19 special powers act was rattled through both houses with barely a whimper from either side of the house. The same for passage through the Lords.
Special times call for special powers. Unfortunately the act only requires review in 6 months, automatic repeal unless extended would be a safer way to go. Government takes very easily,giving back is always a struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:34 PM

If you're a Tory voter, and you stood outside tonight to applaud the NHS, that same NHS that the Tories have systematically run down for ten years, and which now has thousands of its workers put in harm's way because you Tories simply don't care, you're a hypocrite, and you should hang your head in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:50 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: If you're a Tory voter, and you stood outside tonight to applaud the NHS, that same NHS that the Tories have systematically run down for ten years, and which now has thousands of its workers put in harm's way because you Tories simply don't care, you're a hypocrite, and you should hang your head in shame.

Negativity and criticism. Bring it on!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:10 PM

Nope. It's a challenge to you Tory voters. It's a fact that the government you elected, over a whole decade, has run down our health service. Just look at what's happened to A&E. Just look at what's happened to waiting lists for consultants and operations. Just look at how we've leaked away thousands of doctors and nurses. Just look at those disgraceful scenes of patients dying on trolleys in hospital corridors. I've just waited six bloody weeks to see my GP. The upshot is that we now have tens of thousands of health workers who haven't got the kit to keep them safe. We haven't got the ventilators. There isn't the testing that is so crucial. Contact tracing doesn't happen. It's a shambles, and to point that out isn't negativity. You're free to contradict, with facts, what I've said. Your post addresses nothing. It's just an attempt to sidestep. Defend the party you voted for by all means. But do it with facts. And I won't even ask if you stood outside to applaud.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:26 PM

The 'facts' are that Labour negativity and criticism played a significant part in it's latest political defeat. The voting public dismissed the underlying dishonesty and I hope will continue to do so in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:34 PM

someone mentioned sidestepping...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:58 PM

Well it's very strange that this wonderful Conservative government has spent approaching £30m on a fantastic new A & E unit at Croydon University Hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:38 PM

Answer the question, Stanron. If I'm wrong about what your party has done to the NHS, contradict what I've said. With facts.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM

That's progress, Bonzo. What about just about every A&E department in the country failing by miles to meet its waiting time target? What about the ones that have been closed down?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:59 PM

I can't speak for other areas. We used to have an A & E at our private hospital back in the early 90s which I used on one occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:15 PM

Apparently no longer any night time A&E between Bristol and Taunton...!!!

Supposedly a long term temporary measure..
More like testing the water for a full 24/7 closure...???

So how many minutes do you have left to live from heart attack to Ambulance pick up..

.. and that's a Conservative heartland populated by a significant elderly demographic..


.. if the tories an do that to their own kind, their own loyal voters...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:16 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Answer the question, Stanron. If I'm wrong about what your party has done to the NHS, contradict what I've said. With facts.

This is a good example of the underlying dishonesty of Labour's attacks on the government over the NHS. Remember the financial crisis of 2008. A deficit in National Economics inherited from Labour which saw National Debt growing at a rate that can only be called out of control.

Had the Conservative Government not brought Public Spending under control our current position would be far worse than it is. You might point out that National Debt has grown since 2008 but if spending has not been cut, the current debt would have been far higher. Despite the low interest rates an even larger part of tax income would have gone into paying interest.

And none of this takes Baby Boomers into account. I get the impression that the term may have changed it's meaning recently but originally it was the boom in births in the UK as serving men came home after the war. 1946 to 1948 saw a boom in births. This lot are now in their 70s and needing the NHS. The commercialization of bad food has led to an epidemic of obesity and diabetes. We are now, mostly, a nation of fatties. More drain on the NHS.

But, Hey!, we'll ignore overspending, baby boomers, HIV, obesity and an overall less active lifestyle and let's just blame it all on the Tories! That worked well in the last election didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:27 PM

..what...!!!???

Hello, 2020 calling...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:00 PM

More like, Hello? Delusion calling! The Tories have now had ten years. Trying to shift attention to what Labour did in an election campaign does absolutely nothing to address what devastation you Tories have wreaked on public services, including care, education and the NHS. Once again: if you don't agree with that, give me the counter-argument with evidence. I don't want to hear any more excuses about what you inherited from the last Labour government, which, as a matter of FACT, handled the GLOBAL financial crisis of 2008 as well as or better than most other countries. You've imposed unnecessary hardship on the most vulnerable for the last ten years, applying "austerity" only to the poorer sections of society. You imposed a draconian and inhuman benefits system that has resulted in countless premature deaths, destitution and suicides. There are more people sleeping on the streets than ever before. We have the bloody disgrace of the major industry of food banks. You froze the pay and screwed the pensions of millions of public sector workers. At the same time you allowed feckless bankers to keep on raking in their bonuses and you continued to allow non-doms and other offshore spivs free rein. Drop the yebbut-Labour-blah-blah, mate. You've had TEN YEARS. You told us that the deficit would be paid off by 2015. Liars. You've created over a million "jobs" which can involve employers ringing you up at point blank notice with no work today. You've allowed the burgeoning of a bogus "self-employed" sector of five million workers, the majority of whom are attached to employers who don't have to pay sick pay, maternity pay or holiday pay. You have the neck to call this "the flexible labour market."   

Well all you can come up with, apparently, is diversions about negativity and how Labour fought a bad election campaign. Stick that in another thread, because it doesn't belong here. It's sidetracking and it is bloody dishonest. Address for once what you lot have actually done for ten years, and, when you've done that, reflect on the state of crass unpreparedness for this epidemic that it's brought us to. It's shambolic, and it's killing people. How good is that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 PM

If I was a tory, I'd hope I'd be honest enough to say

"I don't care, I'm alright Jack...!!!"

..but then be badly surprised to find out in fact I'm not,
as I'd also be left to die...

Because the tory elite I always faithfully voted into power
never care about anyone else, not even me...

[comical sad face crying in despair smiley emoticon...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:41 PM

Right on. If anything defines Toryism, it's the way they've been found out by this crisis. It involves everybody, not just them, and Tories can't handle that: Tories are used to leaving the masses behind. The lack of preparedness is staggering. And just think how they've got away with it in part because this has been an easy flu-winter this time around. The poorest people, the hospital porters, orderlies, paramedics, cooks, cleaners and nurses, along with doctors, are mercilessly exposed to deadly disease because this government, in spite of at least three months' notice, can't produce the protective gear needed. They have failed to ramp up the testing regime, so that hospital workers don't know whether they're infectious or not. They tell us that they're sticking to scientific advice, yet a week ago they were rattling on about "herd immunity," which had those of us who know what that means holding their heads in their hands groaning. And Boris sez he's going to mop it up in twelve weeks. Stick it on a bus, Bozo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:35 AM

The government now busy awarding lucrative contracts for ventilators to Brexit-supporting, Tory-Party-Donor companies like Dyson and JCB. Sounds as though there’s a new outbreak of Cronyvirus....

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM

I've just read a news report on BBC RED BUTTON
Govt are asking vets to lend big dog/horse ventilators to the NHS...

What next.. asking Blue Peter to get kids to make them
out of toilet roll tubes and lolly sticks...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM

One of the things about the Internet being around awhile is you can see what the world thought of Gordon Brown's approach back in 2008/9. That is, you can look at reports from around the world written in 2008/9 commenting on whether they believed Brown was doing the right thing. Not the revisionism of the more recent years, but what people actually thought at the time. Generally, they thought Brown was doing the right thing. For example, the IMF.

We can also see what the world thinks about how Boris Johnson is handling the current crisis, which, judging by the US employment figures just released, is going to be many times more significant. OK, this is a Guardian summary, but you can look at sources for both the 2008/9 timeframe and the current one from outside the UK and check for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:54 AM

"Remember the financial crisis of 2008. "
Tsk, trsk more whataboutism
Comparing a financial crisis to a world-wide pandemic just about holds the Gold in the Poliic-Olymics
Economical, with one possible exception, Labour and Tory governments are joined at the hip - while adopting different techniques, both are/were dedicated to preserving the political status quo - Blair's 'New Labour' was probably the most honest in Exposing the 'pro Capitalist nature of Right Wing Labour - out-of the closet Tories.
The exception was the post war Attlee Government which rebuilt war-destroyed Britain using mild socialist measures
The rest have been getting more and more like their so-called opponents each time, which is why it became necessary to take out Corbyn, with the enthusiastic co-operation of the Tory Government, the Tory Press and backers of the extremist right-wing regime in Israel
Blaming the 'last lot' for the inevitable decline of a rotten system is older than the Pyramids
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM

"which I used on one occasion."
Lucky you to have an A and E that has a brain surgery department Bozo
"that's the first baby step towards book burning...???"
It's helpin keep us warm during these dark days - be grateful
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:34 AM

What do the Tories say? Though PFI began under the Conservatives, they were intensely critical of Gordon Brown and Tony Blair's much expanded use of the funding method, viewing it as a way for the former government to conceal the true scale of public borrowing in the 2000s.Jan 18, 2018

FROM THE GUARDIAN
NHS hospital trusts to pay out further £55bn under PFI scheme

Some spending one-sixth of entire budget on repaying debts from Blair-era policy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/nhs-hospital-trusts-to-pay-out-further-55bn-under-pfi-scheme

I have mentioned PFI several times recently but as it was a cunning labour wheeze to kick NHS debt way into the future the usual lefty selective amnesia kicks in.
Fact:
1)year on year the NHS budget has grown.
2)NHS hospital trusts are being crippled by the private finance initiative and will have to make another £55bn in payments by the time the last contract ends in 2050
3)“Toxic PFI contracts are still driving billions away from patients and into private bank accounts,” said Chris Thomas, an IPPR health fellow, who carried out the research
4)Tory Ministers have banned the NHS from using PFI for any future building projects after criticism that many of the contracts still active represent poor value for money.
Rather a different narrative than the left would have us believe.
Tories know money vcan only be spent once.
It is only the left, with the abbaccus as shadow home secretary figure they can use mathermagic and spend the same penny a multiplicity of times. Their schooling may have been at Hogwarts but all they learnt was hogwash.

At the start of the NHS life expectancy in the UK was (M)66 years and (F)70 years. Today the figures are 79.3 years for males and 82.9
Two-thirds of hospitals beds are occupied by the one-third of the population with a long-term condition.
. People are living with a growing number of long-term chronic conditions - diabetes, heart disease and dementia. These are more about care than cure - what patients usually need is support. By the age of 65, most people will have at least one of these illnesses. By 75 they will have two.
5. Care for older people costs much more

The average 65-year-old costs the NHS 2.5 times more than the average 30-year-old. An 85-year-old costs more than five times as much.
If youwant a better health service it will cost you. Simples!