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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:16 AM Never heard of that one, sounds like a good idea, and I'll definitly look it up. There's just nothing like shouting FREUDE, untranslatable. You probably see this everyday, but to me it's interesting to see such different translations, especially when some of the original words are not common words. (I also intend to learn Un bel di from Madama Butterfly in Italian.) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:27 AM I just noticed the similarity between the words Freunde and Freude. Does Freunde mean friends (as in the translation at the top) or brothers (as in your translation), or is it better to not try to be too literal? I always remember the line in Joe's translation Alle Menschen werden Brüder, and it just souds like that word is the literal word for brothers. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:17 AM I never before thought about the similarity of the two words. 'Freunde' is 'friends' and 'Freude' is well translated with 'joy'. The word 'Bruder' now nearly exclusively means brother as a close relation. One century ago or more it still could by used in a broader sense meaning a very close friend. That's how Schiller used the word, but this use is completely out of fashion today, it only survives in that sense in composite words. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Haruo Date: 14 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM Like the English (in some times and places "brother" is restricted to a sibling, in others it may mean fairly vague acquaintance; in the low free churches it may mean "fellow believer" and in the high liturgical ones "male religious"). Incidentally, Wolfgang, can you cite a source or a translator for this latest version? Liland |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wolfgang Date: 15 Mar 02 - 03:37 AM I found it when searching for the lyrics Paul Robeson is singing on Freedom Train. No translator is mentioned, but here is my source: http://links.uwaterloo.ca/~douglas/Songs/schiller.html Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:38 AM Unfortunately Joe's text only contains a few stanzas, and it is a little bit muddled up. Here is a link to Schiller's poem "To Joy": http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gb1053/mudcat.htm I have added the traditional tune of 1801; poem with tune are given as sung by German students about 1890. It is an early version of the poem; later on Schiller did some minimal changes, which are recorded also. Especially in stanza 8 you will find a catalogue of civil virtues, references to which are preserved till today in German everyday speech. Keeping in mind the purpose of an European anthem the poem fits well with its description of Joy creating harmony and unity. It is not sung in official use because of the length of the text and the variety of languages, but played by the band and listened to in the right state of mind. Wilfried |
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Subject: Lyr Add: BRÜDER, SINGT EIN LIED DER FREUDE From: Haruo Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:48 PM This is with reference to "Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude" which I mentioned a couple times above that I was looking for. I got a piece of email a couple days ago from a woman in the German-writing parts of the world, who wrote: De: "Sigrid Preuss"which I think means roughly "I am looking bereft of hope for the German text of "Brüder singt ein Lied der Freude". Can you possibly be of any assistance to me?to which I replied Liebe Siggi,which is probably the most German I've written in a week in the last thirty years. It's supposed to mean Dear SiggiSiggi just wrote back, Liebe Liland,i.e. Dear Liland,And simultaneously I received, from Pastor Burkhardt, the following email: Die große Bitte kann leicht erfüllt werden:So there, another text for the old Beethoven's 9th! Liland |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 23 Jul 02 - 06:26 AM Wolfgang, when you wrote "Paul Robeson sings it in a micture of English and German" above, were you taking the piss? ;-) I'd be happy to see this tune transformed into a hymn because I hate so much about it as it is: - I regard the 9th symphony as Beethoven's only serious lapse of good taste. - Schiller is for me the whining, wimpish Neil Young/Joe Jackson (delete as appropriate) of German literature. - It is official EU doctrine that the setting of the tune which is to be used as the € "national" anthem is one by the great Prussian infantry bandmaster himself, Herbert von Karajan. - And most of all I detest the way it and the flag are being used to recreate at European level the trappings of a militaristic nation State which is precisely what the "European ideal" was supposed to replace. By the way, today marks the expiry of the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty, which (we are told) was all about making it impossible for France and Germany ever to go to war against each other again. Happy peace (while it lasts, before we all join hands to go to war against somebody else). End of rant. (And by the by-way, I know that HvK was Austrian, but I hate what he used to do to Mozart, and the sobriquet for him is just my little rejoinder to the old joke that the Austrians have convinced everyone - and most of all themselves - that Hitler was German but Beethoven was Austrian.) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:25 AM Oh my dear, An Pluiméir Ceolmhar! Don't let us discuss good taste here; let us have a look at German litetrary history. Schiller was coerced by his Duke to the carreer of regimental surgeon in his army - when S. couldn't stand it any more he deserted and turned to the profession he understood best: poet. His first drama, the Robbers, was a flaming accusation of tyranny. Through all his work runs the read string of liberty. That is why he is more beloved and esteemed by the common man than Goethe. I don't know the two guys you are referring to in your post, but I'm sure Schiller is lots of classes better. Naturally Schiller's poetry wasn't undisputed even in his lifetime; there are documents of literate people having fallen from their chairs under lots of laughter when reading his Poem of the Bell. On the other side, your last remark in brackets is quite right. Hitler was a born Austrian and was naturalized in Germany at the end of the 20es; Beethoven was born in Bonn (former capital of the FR of Germany) and never naturalized in Austria. In 1938, when the German Army occupied Austria, about a million of people assembled in Vienna to receive Hitler and shouted "Heil"; on May 8, 1945 the PoWs in Siberia took red-white-red armbands to show to the Russians, that they were not Germans but the poor innocent victims of Hitler. Bloody gang. To address Herbert von Karajan as a German infantry band master is, nevertheless, a gross insult to this fine group of musicians. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 23 Jul 02 - 12:43 PM I realise what symbolic value Schiller has, Wilfried, but let's agree to differ on his writing, though I admit it may just be that my first impressions of his poetry prejudiced me against delving deeper. My affinity for Goethe is probably reinforced by the fact that I'm a civil servant (not that I've read anything by either of them in the last thirty-odd years, BTW). But since war is now back in fashion, maybe you can help me with an OT question, otherwise I'll start a separate thread. Do you know what is the precise German wording of Clausewitz's famous dictum about war being the continuation of [diplomacy?] by other means? And have you any idea where in the book it occurs? I waded through several hundred pages of a translation a few years ago without finding it (OK, maybe I slept through the bit where it came up...). I have a strong suspicion that he was grossly misrepresented on account of it in Britain, and would like to read it in context. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:04 AM An Pluiméir Ceolmhar - Agreed, An; as I wrote in another thread, tastes are different, and that is good so. A strange question you ask. I'm a civil servant, too, but I served my time and read Clausewitz voluntarily. It must be in his most famous theoretical work "Vom Kriege" (About War)where he says: "Der Krieg ist nichts anderes als die Fortsetzung des politischen Verkehrs, nur mit Einschluß anderer Mittel" (War is nothing else than political intercourse continued, but with other means included). I'm not sure whether I cited it right, since it is a long time since I've read it, and I have to look it up again (maybe I need some time to find it). It is one of his facts misinterpreted most. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:14 AM I remember singing "Alleluia Sing to Jesus, His the sceptre, His the crown" to this; (A shame when there is a lovely Welsh tune!), so I checked the hymn book. The metre is common, 8.7.8.7. (Doubled), and has many interchangeable hymns and tunes. Possibly the best known is "Austria" (Glorious things of thee are spoken, Zion city of our God) which was not only the tune for the Austrian anthem but also the German. (Deutschland, Deutschland..) Is it mere happenstance that we have a tune for a European anthem which is interchangeable with the German ? Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Snuffy Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:29 AM I agree, Nigel. HYFRYDOL is by far the best tune. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:48 AM Thanks, Wilfried. Don't stay up at night on my account searching for the quotation but I'd still be interested in seeing it in context if you do come across it. I take it to mean that countries (well, OK, in his time kings and princes) go to war for specific policy reasons, not just for the hell of it: in practice, it seems to be a still timely call to define war aims before you start a war, and a warning against what we now call "mission creep". I dragged it in here because I'm uneasy at the direction which the European Union is taking, and the question about the tune which is also our anthem gave me an excuse to sound off. That's me in my gloomy days. When I'm feeling cheerful, I observe that the grindingly slow conduct of business the countless Council working groups is reminiscent of trench warfare, ans is in fact the continuation of war by other (peaceful) means. Admittedly this is the process which has led us to have an anthem without words, and banknotes with "white brand" non-specific cultural symbols, but it's still an improvement on people literally beating each other over the head about symbols. It was also the inspiration which led John Hume to bring about something approaching peace in Northern Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:11 AM An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Found it sooner than I thought since it is on page 19 and in bold letters as a heading; I am sorry for the wrong text I gave in my previous post. Clausewitz: Vom Kriege / General v. Clausewitz. - 8. Aufl. - Berlin : Behr, 1914 [Title: About War] Book I: Die Natur des Krieges (Nature of War) Chapter 1: Was ist der Krieg? (What is War?) 24. Der Krieg ist eine bloße Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln. So sehen wir also, daß der Krieg nicht bloß ein politischer Akt, sondern ein wahres politisches Instrument ist, eine Fortsetzung des politischen Verkehrs, ein Durchführen desselben mit anderen Mitteln. ... denn die politische Absicht ist der Zweck, der Krieg ist das Mittle, und niemals kann das Mittel ohne Zweck gedacht werden. 24. War is a mere continuation of politics by other means. So we see that war is not only a political act but a true political instrument, a continuation of political dealings, a realization of them by other means. ... because the political purpose is the objective, war is the tool, and never the tool can be thought of without objective. I hopr to have been of some help to you; the translation is literally and may be not the best example of Her Majesty's own language, so I beg your pardon. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 25 Jul 02 - 04:05 AM Thanks a million, Wilfried. Another triumph for Mudcat, solving one of those questions which have been at the back of my mind for decades! It looks as if either the translation which I have is very free, or else my attention span is much worse than I thought: I don't know how I missed it, given that tracking down this statement is one of the reasons why I bought the book. I should explain that we never had compulsory military service in Ireland, but for a long time I was a volunteer member of the volunteer territorial reserve. Hence my interest in military theory. I have also, since my schooldays, tried to defend Germany and "the Germans" against the kind of stupid prejudice that was propagated by British boys' comic books of the 1950s before they were entirely taken over by football. Believe it or not, that attempt at objectivity earned me the nickname "Hitler", which followed me throughout my childhood - and that was in "neutral" Ireland! The misguided belief that Clausewitz's dictum is no more than the expression of cynical Prussian militarism is the adult equivalent of the same prejudice, which is also still actively stoked up by the British tabloids, sometimes under the pretext of commenting on football (spot the connection?). Your translation is fine. "Verkehr" could be translated by "intercourse" in a text of this era, but in modern usage that word is almost totally confined to the sexual domain. "Relations" would be another possible translation. One of the great dilemmas for translators working from German or French to English is to decide whether to translate Politik/politique as "politics" or "policy". Either would seem justified if Clausewitz's heading stood alone as an aphorism, but I think you have made the right choice here, given the way he develops his point.
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:01 AM An Pluiméir Ceolmhar - Thanks a million, too, for your attempt to objectivity. It makes me crazy, that 12 years of history have made Germany's face black all over the world, especially when your family was prosecuted for not being Nazis. Considering Irish independence one shouldn't forget the role of "Comrade Mauser" in the fights (before 1933). Glad to hear that you volunteered. So did I, in a sort. I was exempt from compulsory service but insisted on doing my duty. Now back to Clausewitz: Most people only know this little sentence you asked for; the theories behind it they aren't interested in. You are doing well to read them, because in my opinion they still are and will be valid because of their deep insight into human nature - but let us still be glad that thoughts like those expressed in the "Ode to Joy" where our discussion started also belong to human nature and may give some hope. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 26 Jul 02 - 11:48 AM Agreed. In fact, part of my motivation for becoming a civil servant was the belief that it's better to work for your country rather than die for it. Now I'm in the European Commission, in the department which inter alia runs the Socrates programme, thanks to which approximately one million European students have spent at least a term in another country, the Youth programme which promotes cooperation between youth clubs and organisations, and the European voluntary service which helps young people to spend time doing voluntary work in another country, so it's not all bad! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST,vickivivian Date: 27 Sep 04 - 04:24 PM I'm looking for the lyrics that go something like this: "God our maker, mighty father, all creation sings your praise; Sun and stars in all their splendor, moon in every changing phase; Earth with all its trees and grasses, sparkling rivers, oceans blue; All unite to pay you homage singing joyously to you." Other bits of it go something like this: "Man and woman you created that united heart and home They might live and strive together in the building of your world" "First born of your vast creation leasing all in unity Leading all in power and wisdom to a glorious destiny." There's a "Provident and wise creator" somewhere in it as well. Please can anyone here help me? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST,Is is this one ? Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:23 AM Brother sing your country's anthem Shout your land's undying fame Light the wondrous tale of nations With your people's golden name Tell your father's noble story Raise on high your country's sign Join then in the final glory Brother lift your flag with mine. Hail the sun of peace, new rising Hold the war clouds closer furled Blend our banners; Oh my brothers In the rainbow of the world. Red as blood and blue as heaven, Wise as age and proud as youth Melt our colours, wonder woven, In the great white light of Truth. Build the road of peace before us Build it wide and deep and long; Speed the slow and check the eager Help the weak and curb the strong. None shall push aside another None shall let another fall. March beside me, Oh my Brother All for one and one for all. Note from Joe Offer: words by Josephine Daskam Bacon, 3rd verse by Don West. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST,Hymn in the Roman Catholic Missalette Date: 20 Apr 09 - 01:56 PM Alleluia! Alleluia! Hearts and voices heavï'nward raise: Sing to God a hymn of gladness, Sing to God a hymn of praise. He, Who on the cross a victim, For the world's salvation bled, Jesus Christ, the King of glory, Now is risen from the dead. Now the iron bars are broken, Christ from death to life is born, Glorious life and life immortal, On that holy Easter morn. Christ has triumphed, and we conquer By His mighty enterprise, We with him to life eternal By His resurrection rise. Christ is risen, we are risen! Shed upon us heav'nly grace, Rain and dew and gleams of glory From the brightness of Thy face; That, with hearts in heaven dwelling, We on earth may fruitful be, And by angel hands be gathered, And be ever, Lord, with thee. Alleluia! Alleluia! Glory be to God on high; Alleluia to the Savior Who has won the victory; Alleluia to the Spirit, Fount of love and sanctity; Alleluia! Alleluia! To the Triune Majesty. words: Christopher Wordsworth, 1807-1885. tune: Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," 9th Symphony |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST,mike Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM It seems that possibly every other church has worked different words to fit the ode to joy movement? My catholic hymnal version was(God created earth and heaven, God comanded light to be...seperated light from darkness! Set the bounds for land and sea the next line has con fused me but he final line in the first verse is God created earth and heaven and God saw that it was good! Help? Please and Thankyou Mike |
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Subject: ADD: God Created Earth and Heaven From: GUEST,Anon Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:51 AM Hey Mike, This is the one I recall as well...perhaps it does have something to do with denomination, as I'm RC. It was always sung to the tune of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy", more or less. "God Created Earth and Heaven" God created earth and heaven, God commanded light to be, Separated light from darkness, Set the bounds for land and sea. While God's spirit on the waters, In His love did gently brood. Life on earth began to quicken, And God saw that it was good. God made man in his own image, Gave him power to think and choose; Made Him Lord of all creation, Everything in his to use. Let us praise our loving Father, Let us thank Him as we should. For the gifts of His creation, Which His love has made so good. (finally found on an Ottawa Catholic School Board website.) |
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Subject: RE: Ode to Joy - other lyrics From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:41 PM God created earth and heaven God commanded light to be Separated light from darkness Set the bounds for land and sea |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:47 PM Thanks This was the hymn I was looking for. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Mar 20 - 01:36 PM A local Edinburgh choir discovered you can sing "A Man's a Man for A' That" to it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 20 - 06:32 AM Sang in church all the time...lol now Im stumped at how it s tarted t oo! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM It also had the lines: Speed the slow, remind the eager, help the weak and guide the strong... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy' From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 10 Jul 20 - 01:02 PM When I was at university the Morris side would read the label of a Guinness bottle to it. "Brewed by Arthur Guiness Son & Company Park Royal Limited. Extra Stout Guinness (registered trademark) Arthur Guinness..." and so on. The tune also worked for a morris dance, although I csnt now recall which one. |
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