Origin: She Moved Through the Fair

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 04:24 AM

"Kind" in Ireland is archaic but still occasionally used for the goods you own.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 09:22 AM

Regarding MGM Lion's post from 29 August 2012.

Does anyone know where that Karl Dallas story about Maggie Barry learning She Moved Through the Fair from a gramophone recorded first appeared?
Was it in print?

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 09 Aug 22 - 09:04 AM

Guest, writing on 8th August, can you please specify which of the Child ballads you're referring to?

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 22 - 06:55 PM

Child's has many, many verses of the different versions of this song over the past two centuries.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM

I'll accept that. It was the alternate meaning that I posted.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 11:10 AM

MtheGM is surely correct, though I've shared Q's interpretation since I first heard the song.

The OED has no definition of "kind" that is anything like "wealth" or "property." "In kind" is an idiomatic phrase which means, more or less, "in precisely or essentially the same way." Hence, if an obligation is settled "in kind," it does mean, in many cases, "by handing over property," but "kind" all by itself is never used as a synonym of "property."

Nineteenth-century database searches turn up no exx. of "lack of kind." Twentieth-century exx. are restricted to printings of Colum's poem. Phrases like "enough kind" meaning "enough property" appear to be nonexistent.

A writer in the Irish University Review in the 1970s noted that "lack of kind," in the poem, was "a phrase unfamiliar to me in Anglo-Irish or English usage."

Colum's "kind" could have been a typo for the archaic (and thus "poetic") "kine," cattle, which would make sense, except that Colum never bothered to correct it in any post-1909 printing - and there were many of them. As it stands, "kind" would be equally "poetic" and has the advantage of rhyming perfectly with "mind."

All the evidence shows that by "lack of kind," Colum meant lack of what the OED defines as "The character or quality derived from birth."

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:52 AM

Take this point, Q, re payment in 'kind' possible = dowry. But surely 'slight' ['my father' btw, not 'your'!] implies a social-class counter-reaction rather than a merely avariciously disappointed one. Both interpretations semantically possible; but must say I prefer mine.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 10:05 PM

"And your father won't slight you for your lack of kind."

It follows from payment in kind- payment in goods rather than money.

Quotes in the OED, 15, under kind; e. g. Buckle, 1862.

Walton, 1670-"Rainment were provided for him in kind."

Entry 16, Kind payment- payment in goods.

Or one could take Kind in one of the other senses, which Webster's lumps under lineage: lack of breeding or background; "good of its kind;" etc.

Kind is a word with many meanings and inflections; the OED has about three quarto pages all told, including the supplements, with the various definitions and quotes.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 07:17 PM

What your authority for that assertion, Q? Cannot find any such usage in any dictionary, whereas --

"Definition of KIND
1
a archaic : nature
b archaic : family, lineage"
          Merriam Webster Dictionary online

~M~

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 04:03 PM

lack of kind means lack of worldly goods.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 03:10 PM

Lack of 'kind' I have always taken to mean she did not come of a 'good' family ~ kind=kindred here, surely?

I wonder why so many singers leave out that vital 3rd verse of Colum's ~~ the one with the 'great sorrow', the goods & gear', the 'last that I saw of my dear' ~~ including Margaret Barry, who, asked in an interview by Karl Dallas whether she had learned it from family? other travellers? ... replied simply, "Oh no, I got it off a gramophone record by Count John McCormack" - who also, obviously, omitted it; and more recently Méav of Celtic Woman, who I imagine will have got it from one of these sources. Seems a shame that verse should vanish into the ewigkeit. I recall that Bob Davenport, way back when I first heard him in about 1956, sang only vv 1,2,4 also.

If you want it as a ringtone, you can get it by googling the lyrics of Belfast Child by Jim Kerr of Simple Minds, who wrote this 1989 chart-topping song to the tune of She Moved, which he first heard at about the time of the Enniskellen bombings. Not sure if I find this an iniquitous impertinence or an encouraging manifestation of an ongoing tradition! (And much the same re Rosamund Lehmann's having called her introspective memoir The Swan In The Evening.)

~M~

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

A lot of speculation on this song, but these are the basic facts, from Contemplator:
"The original words were an old ballad from Donegal which was collected in 1909. The words were "reworked" by Padraic Colum to this version. Alternate titles and variants include "Our Wedding Day" and "Out of the Window.""
http://www.contemplator.com/ireland/shemoved.html

The basic idea of the song is paralleled in other songs, some early, but no direct connection has been made to this particular song.

Mudcat has about a dozen threads on this song; picking the "meat" out of them is a slow and laborious task.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,michelle
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 01:14 PM

Can someone PLEASE just tell me if the origins of this ballad go back to the 18th century, or earlier. There is no real information except for it being "From the traditional...""traditional" could mean anything. When was this tale first heard, in any form?

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 05:55 AM

GUEST Pedant

Colum wrote "kind" which is,here, an Ulster dialect word. FWIW the curious expression "with her goods and her gear", which turns up in the "Out of the Widow" versions, has similar origins.

REgards

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,A passing pedant
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:55 PM

Lack of KINE - it means cattle.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:06 PM

There are so many reasons why your coworkers are transparently wrong about Padraic Colum's meaning that I'm tempted to suggest they were having a bit of fun with you.

On the other hand, rock & rave fans may believe that all songs present the story you describe. Or should.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,Jab
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:06 PM

Again, some might say this is going to ruin it but anyway...

I am not an English native speaker and I ran across the Loreena McKennitt interpretation of this song. I felt some of the archaic forms evade my understanding and I really don't know what the song is about. So I ran to google and found this thread and similar. After reading all theories I took the lyrics - without the added last verse (the one that has the death connotations) and show it to my coworkers, the majority of which are English speakers. The consensus was , roughly put "they had a minor fight because the girl wouldn't put up, she left telling him to wait until the wedding and then he has a wet dream about it in which she still reprimands him" . Now before dismissing this as pure trollery, please consider that the initial versions of the song were more light hearthed in both song and lyrics than what we all got used of hearing. Also key to this is that most of these coworkers are people that have no contact or interest in Celtic, folk, Old English , tradition and so forth. These are people grown up on rave and at best rock music. And yes, a song is what you make of it - and even the outhor rights to define what he meant dillutes in time.

Just my 2c.

Jab

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:55 PM

"No two were ere wed but one had a sorrow that never was said" is a traditional Irish saying, meaning that no two people have ever been married without one having an unspoken sorrow that was concealed throughout the marriage.

It's a more romantic idea in the context of the "made match", when both boys and girls were liable to be married off to the person who would make the best partnership with their family farm.

Many's the girl or boy who was married to a 50-year-old next door whose land marched with their parents', so that the marriage would consolidate the two farms. Or to a drunk who happened to be heir to a good business.

As for "din", in the context it is a regional usage for "sound".

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

I really do like this version by Wendy Arrowsmith. Have a listen. She has a really nice voice. Its the second song on the right.
http://www.myspace.com/wendyarrowsmith

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:48 AM

I can only imagine how great Sam Brown's background singing must be on this number, singing with her dad.

My first and only knowledge of Sam's artistry is her performace on the "Concert for George [Harrison]" DVD, which also features Joe Brown, but separately. Her rendition of "You Can Lead a Horse to Water" is my very favorite moment in a really excellent all-star concert. That girl can sing!

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,Billy, Donegal
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:13 PM

So many great versions of She Moves Through the Fair. Always a showstopper at gig, party or gathering. Many singers go over the top on the song. It`s one of those rare gems that is best sung unaccompanied, without too much embellishment. My favourite version is by Anne Briggs...simple, bare, effective.
Billy

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:33 AM

Thank you for the explantion (TB). I disagree most strongly that such an explaination takes anything away from the beauty of the song. If anything it makes it more achingly beautiful.

When a person died before they were married, it was often called their "wedding day" and they were burried in white. (Source: Albion's Fatal Tree) That alone makes me agree with the explaination.

Subject: RE: Origin: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,Another comment
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 05:59 PM

A fine song to be interpretted as you wish. The 60's rocker Joe Brown & the Bruvvers have recently recorded this. His daughter Sam Brown adds some fine haunting backing vocals. Well worth a listen.

Allan from Norwich

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,Shinann
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM

Ive been reading through alot of the threads and find them all very interesting.
Im a 16 year old who loves Traditional songs ALOT and has been singing this particular song alot and has had it sung to her alot aswell....
I always presumed the woman had died and then her ghost came back to him.....and that was the impression ive been getting since i was 5...I love this song

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Taconicus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:39 PM

Thank you. I did look through the various threads, but could not find it amongst the massive number of posts on the subject (even with the search engine).

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:04 AM

One thing you could do would be to read the other discussions here on the song (see links above). I appreciate that that might be onerous and confusing, though, given the amount of rubbish that people have posted here on the subject over the years. You will also find comments that, though they seemed reasonable at the time, have proved to be wrong (such as my own suggestion that it was Margaret Barry who introduced 'dead love' to the song).

Have a look at the DT file OUR WEDDING DAY. This is copied from the Sam Henry collection. Unfortunately, the DT transcriber has given it the wrong title (Henry called it 'Out of the Window') and hasn't bothered to credit the singer, who was James Lafferty of Doaghs, Magilligan. His version was printed in The Northern Constitution, 24 July 1926.

You'll recognise the first two verses. The third is the usual conclusion, while the others are 'floating' verses that occur in many songs. There is another version in Henry, 'Our Wedding Day' ('collected' in 1934), which appears to derive from Colum's re-write. That is not quoted here. There are further references to two versions in Paddy Tunney's repertoire if you have the stamina to wade through the other threads mentioned, and the wit to learn to use the search engine.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Taconicus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:56 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Malcolm. But what was "the song that formed the basis of Colum's re-working," and where can I find the lyrics?

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 06:13 PM

'Gurney': since all 'versions' of 'She Moved Through the Fair' are based on Colum's, it might be best to consider his the original rather than merely as another 'version'; though as we know he based his poem on elements of existing material, these told rather a different story. It's certainly true that a lot of silliness has resulted from McCormack's (possibly accidental) alteration to the song; though it certainly gave it a new resonance for a lot of people, its author hadn't intended, so far as we can tell, any such thing. I wonder if anyone ever asked him what he thought about the whole business?

I don't need to read Herriot to know about TB; my father contracted it in the early '70s. Because innoculation and other precautions had largely eradicated it in Britain at that time, diagnosis was late and he sustained quite a bit of permanent lung damage before he got the right treatment. The medical establishment hadn't fully appreciated then that increased immigration from countries lacking proper innoculation programmes would inevitably bring with it an increase in diseases of that kind.

As one theory among others it's fine; but without evidence it can only be speculation. Consumption has for centuries served as a romantic plot device, though the reality is very far from romantic. Since there is an Irish connection here, it's worth mentioning that TB was a recurring motif in Van Morrison's early work; sometimes the references were direct, sometimes more oblique. That isn't guesswork, though.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:50 PM

I should have said Bramicus rather than Malcolm. Sorry Malcolm.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

No, Jim Lad, I'm sure Malcolm meant you. Dominic was my best man (although my wife hated him) but he was an incredible man. If you caught him at breakfast time you could have the most enlightened and entertaining few hours but ...

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:50 PM

The versions of the song that I came across were too 'witchy' and mysterious for me, until I found Colum's sensible and sensitive version.

Regarding the TB theory, anyone who's read the James Herriot books will realise the huge effort and expense that went into wiping out this curse. I remember , as a child, seeing large signs in meadows advertising "The Tuberculin Tested Herd....", so I'm ready to credit it as a plausible theory.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:18 PM

Praise the Lord!
I was hoping that wouldn't offend you.
"Jim mentions that the current lyrics are from the following book of "Irish Country Songs" published in 1909" ... he must be referring to you, here.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

Barney McKenna reckoned Dominic copyrighted the Bible!

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:18 PM

Is there a song worth stealing that Dominic Behan hasn't had a go at?

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:08 PM

What 'Bramicus' read seems to have been based on a misunderstanding by somebody. Colum's poem was first printed as 'She moved thro' the Fair', 'adapted from an old ballad', in Hughes' 1909 anthology (unchanged in later reprints), which also included a song called 'The Next Market Day'. Now, the 'old ballad' is generally taken to be one called (among other titles) 'Next Market Day'; but that isn't the song that Hughes printed, which is more usually known as 'A Maid Went to Comber'. The story is a very different one: see, for example, thread A Maid Went To Comber, where the text is quoted. Note especially the comments from John Moulden and Bruce Olson.

The New Oxford Book of Irish Verse (see earlier post) included a form of 'She Moved Through the Fair' reworked and expanded by Colum as compared to the version in Hughes. It should be noted, as ever, that 'dead love' was no part of Colum's poem; that was introduced later on, via a commercial recording, by the tenor John MacCormack. In the song that formed the basis of Colum's re-working, the reason why the narrator didn't see his sweetheart any more was that she had eloped with another man.

The tuberculosis tradition is actually quite interesting as an example of the folklore that accumulates around songs; there are many such examples, and it can happen very quickly. The reason why Jim's comments were greeted with scepticism and a degree of hostility was that he presented them as bald fact without explanation. He was new here, and probably didn't realise that some songs in particular attract all manner of balderdash from people who don't always know what they are talking about; and that this is one such ('Danny Boy' is another).

His later comments made it clear that it wasn't something he had made up himself but a genuine tradition (even if it originated with Dominic Behan, which wouldn't be a surprise). Whether or not it was what Colum had in mind we don't know; though, given the information available so far, there seems no particular reason to think that it was.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 02:48 PM

I heard this song sung by Dominic Behan in 1957 or so. He also said it was about a girl dying of consumption. The only difference was that Dom said he wrote it himself!

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM

I like Jim Lad's version above. Elsewhere, Jim mentions that the current lyrics are from the following book of "Irish Country Songs" published in 1909. Here's the full citation:

Irish country songs / collected and arranged by Herbert Hughes.-- Pub info London ; New York : Boosey & Hawkes, 1909-1915

However, I've also read that Padraic Colum derived the lyrics from an older County Donegal ballad that was published in the 1909 edition of that work. Does anyone have a copy of that 1909 edition? I'd like to know the lyrics of that ballad from which "She Moved through the Fair" was derived, if it was printed in that book. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM

Heh, Heh.    You have to know your audience sometimes.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:53 PM

So Jim Lad - I see you're fond of the Brannigan rendition ... ?

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,AWG
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:52 PM

Hey Guest Meself, it's AWG, (sorry I forgot the handle in the one post). Anyhow, Meav did that song on Celtic Woman's first DVD from The Helix Theatre in Dublin, Ireland. She does an incredible version, with her beautiful voice and all. Trad Arr and David Downes (Celtic Woman music director) wrote this song. The best version by far (would there be any doubt).

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:47 PM

AWG. It's good that you've now given yourself a handle. Start a "Celtic Woman" thread. You will surely then, find people of like mind.
Off you go now.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,AWG
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:44 PM

I checked out PoppaGator's link to a thread about Celtic Woman. I really hope all threads dont contain so much @#$%-ing crap. Have those people any taste at all? Boy oh Boy. Oh well, theyll come around and learn to love Celtic Woman, like everyone else!!

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:16 PM

For a variety of opinions about "Celtic Woman," check out:

this thread

As you'll observe, it's not one "woman" (singluar), but a group of very attractive young women whose musical talents are the subject of some debate, best known for videotaped concert appearances shown on PBS (American public TV) during fund-raising drives. Depending upon whose option you trust, their presentation is either overproduced and tastelessly commercial, or beautiful and inspiring.

(My own opinion falls somewhere between the extremes. I've never watched an entire program; I think the ladies are undoubtedly talented, and the music mostly quite enjoyable, but that the show as a whole is quite deliberately middlebrow, directed toward the largest possible audience.)

Describing "She Moved Through the Fair" as a "Celtic Woman song" is probably a demeaning dismissal of a song that can be quite wonderful when presented by the right perfomer, and which certainly predates the CW group's formation, regardless of whether it's truly ancient or if it was composed only a single century ago.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:16 PM

"Celtic Woman does the very best rendition of that song."
That you've heard.
Hmmm. John McCormack, Fr. Sydney McEwan, Jim Brannigan, That Bald Girl whose picture I'd love to tear up on David Letterman .... meself..no .. but there's more.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:13 PM

GUEST - why don't you give yourself a handle, so we'll know if it's the same GUEST making each post? If it is, I assume I misinterpreted your first post - if it was yours - in which case, I missed the irony, and took it as a slag at both CW and the song ...

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM

Not yet. I'll try to watch it during the next pledge drive. You just never know, do you?

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:10 PM

Celtic Woman does the very best rendition of that song. And they don't change anything as far as I know. Hey Jim, are you a fan yet ??

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:07 PM

I know I've said this before but it always annoys me when people change the lyrics to this one. Please tell me that Celtic Woman doesn't do that.

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM

Celtic Woman is a group made up of 5 Irish women (4 singers and one fiddle player), and one singer from New Zealand. They are currently on a North American tour, you can check them out at Celticwoman.com. This song is one of the ones they do, and quite beautifully IMO. Be warned, you may become an instant fan, and become 'obsessed' with their music. Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Help: She Moved Through the Fair
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:42 PM

"Just another Celtic Woman number."

Someone else respond to this. I don't know anything about "Celtic Woman" and this is the first I've heard of her having anything to do with this song.