BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?

Subject: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: ddw
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:19 AM

I've seen a lot of sage advice meted out here, so I thought I'd throw this out to see what people think.

The work that I do (newspaper editing) takes a lot of concentration but in recent weeks it has been made MUCH more difficult by two women on staff — one in her mid-30s, the other in her mid-40s — who giggle, squeal and natter constantly — commenting loudly on every unusual story they see, making up ridiculous headlines and squealing with glee at their own cleverness.

One, the older, has been on the desk for years and has been the subject of a near-revolt by the rest of the staff a couple of years ago. She recently returned from an extended "illness" and was on her way to working up to her old speed when the younger woman came on the desk. In tandem, they're unbearable.

Everybody in the newsroom has commented on it to me and I know several have to leave the newsroom occasionally to keep from blowing a fuse. Tonight, as we were wrapping up the work after a particularly hectic shift, I mentioned it to the shift supervisor. He took the attitude that I was just bitching because "nobody else has complained to me."

So what do you think? I'm really interested in how other 'Catters would handle a truly intolerable situation.

david

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:32 AM

We went en masse to the supervisor and told him we were walking if the problem person wasn't dealt with; it worked, but of course, everyone has to be in agreement.

Still, if you could get a group together to talk to him, so he'd know it wasn't just you, he might listen. That has got to be very frustrating and it must be costly in productivity, too. You could point that out, but that gets tricky as he could turn it into thinking you others are not capable of doing your jobs.

Is there anyone who is chummy with these two women who could explain to them how disruptive they are? Maybe they could be embarrassed into shutting up? Does their work get done?

Good luck,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: MarkS
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:37 AM

This is a toughie. If they were guys you could privately tell them to keep quiet, you are a pain in the a**, but the different gender involved here means you could be open to a complaint of harassment.
Best thing to do is to document every incident and in particular document every time you go to your supervisor with a complaint. Encourage your other co-workers to do likewise. And if you do confront the loudmouths, do so with absolute politeness and cordiality. And DOCUMENT everything you say and their responses.
Really. Write it down and make a record. Its for your own self protection.
Good Luck
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: ddw
Date: 24 May 01 - 01:14 AM

Kat — thanks for the response. We did talk to him en masse when the near-revolt happened a couple of years ago, but his answer was "So what do I do? Tell her to quit talking?"

We told him that's exactly what we'd like, but he never did anything and she started booking off sick, so the matter just sorta dropped.

MMario — you're right about the tricky. Both of these women are prone to running up "gender issues" at the drop of a hat. Maybe if the other women on staff vent some of their frustration with these two — they've all said it to me, but not to the supervisor — it would take that aspect out of the mix.

Thanks for the comments so far. I'm headed home now, but will check back tomorrow night to see if anybody else is willing to wade in here.

g'nite, all

david

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:10 AM

Put a digital recorder on your desk and record a few hours "for the record".

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:21 AM

It's a dificult thing to do but you or another collegue, with the backing and support of the rest of the staff realy need to explain calmly, sensibly and civaly that they are distracting everyone. Something along the lines of 'Would you please be quite as we need to concentrate' may be enough. If no-one does anything it will only get worse and worse and ill feelings will start to cloud the issue. Get it over and done with quickly.

I had to sack someone once. I kept putting it off until in the end it was realy stressing me out. When I finaly did it I was a nervous wreck and she just responded with 'OK - I was not realy happy anyway'. Could have saved myself weeks of stress.

Hope this helps

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:23 AM

Are you Union? Could your Union rep. drop a word in her ear? (Please god don't let one of these two dip-sticks be your union rep! That happened in one of my former workplaces!)

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:29 AM

civaly should read civily of course... It is not a cival matter but we should be civil about it :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 24 May 01 - 05:32 AM

Sounds like they're just not behaving in an appropriate way in the workplace. Its nice that they're having a good time, but its not the time & place for it, especially as they are disrupting everyone else. Could you suggest to the supervisor that they could be moved somewhere so that they aren't so in-your-face.
gnu's idea sounds pretty good.
Failing all that - would you be able to take in some music to listen to on headphones whilst working - at least it would be a noise you liked then.
I know its a difficult situation though - and I've been on the other side of it. We were a very lively team working together and breaking off frequently for bouts of hilarity which probably only was funny to us. There was a poor guy sitting just outside our door & he used to get in a right strop about it & come in and tell us to be quiet and then slam the door. Unfortunately that just made us worse (human nature I'm afraid) and we found him hilarious. Especially when he started wearing HUGE headphones to block us out (which is why I thought of headphones - see above). So from that I can confirm that if you confront them they'll probably just get worse.....
I'm pretty sure we calmed down a lot when we moved buildings & were seated a bit differently (ie not in so much of a huddle).
We weren't BAD people - just noisy. I expect these ladies are pretty much the same and it is up to the supervisor to sort out the problem somehow. Do these ladies not have enough work to keep them occupied - or do they need tighter deadlines? How to make the supervisor appreciate the problem is the trick...

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: InOBU
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:25 AM

Dear David:
Be very very carful. It is usualy the person trying to make things work better and more worker friendly who gets the axe. Perhaps you can get your work space moved as far from them as possible. Part of the problem may be the really untollerable pressure in a press room, been there myself. We all have ways of dealing with it, their's might be giving you a real pain, but the source of the pain may as well be short deadlines and the rest of the package of horrors of the job.
Hang in there Dave, and when it gets really bad - sing!
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:38 AM

Any way of physically separating them? Teachers move two disruptive students away from each other. Can they be partnered with different workers who aren't such talkers?

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 May 01 - 08:41 AM

Have you thought about asking them nicely to keep it down when you particularly need to concentrate on something. It might just be me, but I have noticed that people usually respond to a polite request quite well - especially if they didn't really realise how loud they were. It's always worth a try.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: John P
Date: 24 May 01 - 08:41 AM

I deal with sorting our other peoples' interpersonal issues at work sometimes. Here's what I would ask someone in your position to do:

1) Talk to the two women directly. Be polite and friendly. Do not put blame on them -- only describe how you feel and what effect the talking has on you. No confrontation! Conversation only. Try to have one (not more) other person with you to bolster your position and act as a witness. If you are afraid they may raise issues of gender harrassment, have the other person with you be a woman. Keep in mind that from the point of view of these women, they are not out of line. They have never been told so by their supervisor, who is the person who sets the tone of the workplace culture and ethic. Going over their heads without talking to them first ensures that the situation becomes confrontational.

2) If they respond with anger or other inappropriate emotion, end the conversation and go to your supervisor. Do not engage in an argument with them. If they agree to talk less but don't follow through, remind them once (in a light and friendly manner) and then go to your supervisor.

3) You have a supervisor who is incompetent to be holding the job he has. He is terrified of confrontation, and sometimes that is part of his job. It sounds like he has not responded to the idea that your work is suffering, nor to the idea that these women are being paid to sit around and chat. There are two choices when you have a supervisor like this. One is to provide him with more confrontation that he would experience by confronting the two women. This may cause him to mark you down as a nag and will certainly cause him to dislike you. You need to provide documentation of the problem along with the confrontation (the idea of making a tape was good). The other is to go over his head, after he has failed on at least two occasions to deal with the situation. This will also cause him to dislike you and may not be worth it. It may cause you to lose your job. It will also require careful documentation as proof of your charges.

4) It would be useful to have as much back-up from your co-workers as possible when confronting your supervisor or going over his head. It makes sure there is no way of anyone saying that you are just bitching about nothing. It is also completely inappropriate to conspire to foment a rebellion at work unless you have the support of all the rest of the staff and you are absolutely sure that the situation is making your workplace intolerable. I have fired people for forming cliques against another employee and harrassing them about their behavior at work when that behavior was inside the lines that the company had set as acceptable.

5) Keep a careful written record of everything you do!

6) When I say above that it may not be worth it, I mean that you should be sure of success before you start, or you should be ready to leave your job. If you are pretty sure you will not be successful, it would be easier to leave your job without all the hassle. Or learn to put up with the talking and laughing.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 24 May 01 - 09:53 AM

Great advice, JohnP!
Speaking as a woman may I add one more bit of advice to your #1 suggestion of talking to them directly? Somehow get them to believe YOU have a problem which THEY can help you with. Tell them you really admire people who can do several different things at the same time and keep their high level of concentration. You, unfortunately, have never had that ability and have to struggle to concentrate on your work (looking sad and forlorn at this juncture in the conversation couldn't hurt). Only absolute silence works for you because your mind tends to wander....well, you get the idea. Try to get them to think being quiet around you is helpful to your sad dilemma and that they are doing you a favor. Maybe even pretend you fear for your job. Unless there's already hard feeling between you three, they might want to help you out! And if it works, you may want to consider switching to an acting career!

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 May 01 - 10:57 AM

YES, keep records. If your firm has email, use it. You can send them a nice, polite request for quiet, and if that doesn't work, send them another AND COPY BOTH YOUR AND THEIR BOSS ON IT. Also, try going to HR/Personnel, rather than to the useless supervisor, and feel free to report there that you have already gone to said supervisor and are looking for other options. Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 May 01 - 11:14 AM

I work in a cube. I have no door. Sometimes I have to be on the phone. If people are being too loud in my area, I simply say, hey guys, keep it down, okay? Never had any problem. And sometimes people have to ask me to keep it down too!

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 May 01 - 11:41 AM

Me too, Kim. There are seven of us in an open area and I handle most of the phone work and quotes. If it gets noisy, I call out "Hey, some of us are trying to work here! (with a grin). If that doesn't work, I bring it up at a staff meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: InOBU
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:17 PM

Get a job in the Post office? No... forget that... Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: InOBU
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:19 PM

PS For our European members... Going Postal is an American term referring to the large number of Post Office employees who go simple and shoot all their co-workers... the previous joke was not an endorcement of that solution... Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:36 PM

Well, as a last ditch effort, you could "out annoy" them. Get yourself a boom box and turn the volume up high to a heavy metal station when they start getting loud. Maybe they'll get the point.

Or, even more annoying, put on headphones, plug into your boom box and sing along -- loud and out of key. A woman at the next desk used to do that. Drove me bonkers. But she was so into her own little world, and sounded so bizarre, I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry !

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:37 PM

A friend of mine has a good way of dealing with his two boys when they are out in public and the boys are too loud. He leans over so only they can hear him and simply says, "Other people exist." They get the message and quiet down.

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 01 - 12:39 PM

And - as I forgot to add in the post about the boom box, you'll have a bargaining chip. If they go to the supervisor about your noise, you can agree to trade silence for silence. That's why they say it's golden !

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Helen
Date: 24 May 01 - 07:45 PM

JohnP, great advice. I agree with all you have said as a total package - all parts are necessary, in my opinion & experience.

If the problem is not fixed after discussing with the two women what the situation is and how it affects you, in a diplomatic way, in a place which is private so that it does not appear to be a public "dressing down" then another idea is to have a staff meeting about issues relating to work.

Part of the reason for the meeting would be to encourage ideas to make work easier and more effective - like Best Practice teamwork meetings, or TQM (total quality management). Other topics for discussion should be sought as well to make this situation just another item on the agenda.

You would need to get support from enough of your colleagues to state how the situation is affecting your work and to put forward a constructive, diplomatic proposal for a solution, but be open to suggestions for alternative solutions. It needs to be presented as a constructive way of increasing team effectiveness. Think laterally about the possible solutions, e.g. can they or you work in separate areas? Can walls or enclosures be erected so that they can be free to be as loud and happy as they want? Or does it just come down to all working well together and making allowances for other people's needs, i.e. mutually agreed compromises, trade-offs, negotiated goals, etc.

If you choose to use this method I would go to the supervisor with a well thought out plan, be as reasonable and rational as possible, sell the "team effectiveness" and "team harmony for increased productivity" angles, and especially the angle that you want to work constructively and proactively on this situation, rather than just handing it over to the supervisor to handle. If the supervisor hates confrontation then the carrot dangled in front of his nose would be that he would be spared the trauma of dealing with conflict.

Good luck
Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: ddw
Date: 25 May 01 - 12:05 AM

Thanks to all who responded — it was more than could be hoped for and no less than what I expected from Mudcatters.

The problem eased tonight — one of the tandem was off — and apparently someone else did complain. The supervisor was asking around today to see if anybody else was feeling put upon by the nattering and was getting an emphatic and universal YES.

During our conversation Wednesday night, he told me he would have to deal with it if "everybody gets together and makes it an issue." Well, now he's got a pretty good idea it IS an issue, so I'll cool it for a little while to see what happens.

I did talk to several colleagues today and floated the idea of putting our concerns in writing, giving it to the supervisor and copying the next two editors up the line. Several of my co-workers said they would be willing to sign such a letter and, if that got no action, file a grievance through the union for management's lack of control of the work environment.

Of course, those are steps I'd rather not take because — as several people observed — it would just cause more bad blood all around.

As for talking to the women involved, I could talk to one of them, but there is a long history of bad blood between me and the other one (as there is between her and just about everybody else in the newsroom). But I contend it is not my place to do that. It's a management problem and they don't pay me enough to sort out those things

Anyway, thanks again, all.

Gotta do a little work now, then I can go home and forget about it for the weekend.

It's MUSIC time!

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Bert
Date: 25 May 01 - 12:20 AM

First, you do as Kim C says and say to them individually "Keep it down guys"

If that doesn't work you shout loudly "BE QUIET, THERE'S PEOPLE TRYING TO WORK"

And if that doesn't work you borrow your teenage son's umpteenthousand watt guitar amp and record their antics and play them back at full volume, live.

I had a similar situation once when us draftsmen shared an office with the estimators. They'd let their phones ring on and on and not answer them while we were trying to work. Asking them nicely did nothing. Eventually, I got to shouting loudly "TELEPHONE" every time their phones rang. Management soon sorted them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Helen
Date: 25 May 01 - 09:58 PM

ddw,

Alarm bells ringing. Be careful of passing the buck to managers/supervisors without having tried to discuss it first with the alleged perpetrators. If you and your colleagues have not politely requested the two people to be more aware of the needs of others in the office, and you jump straight to the part where you put it in a letter then you are risking a huge backlash, with cries of harassment, etc.

Putting a complaint in writing without making even a token gesture of negotiating with the people concerned will just make them see red. Written complaints can make people very defensive and often scared because of fear of having the document placed on their personnel files and used later as ammunition in various situations. Scared, defensive people can often fight back very aggressively.

Be seen to be doing things in the right way. "Being seen" is the key to this. Don't leave yourself open to backlashes if you can help it. Do everything by the book and don't give them any ammunition.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: Gypsy
Date: 25 May 01 - 10:31 PM

As a former supervisor...seems to me that these ladies are bored. Someone (like THEIR supervisor) should find them something to do. Enough work that they don't have time for idle chatter. I've found that the harder you work, the less you talk. Kiss of death for anyone working with me was to appear bored.

Subject: RE: BS: Workplace nuisances — what to do?
From: MudGuard
Date: 26 May 01 - 03:15 AM

Have you tried something along the line of

(when they are very noisy again) I hope we do not disturb your conversation if we work on silently?

MudGuard