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Lyr Req: Little Big Horn

GUEST,Theo 12 Aug 01 - 01:56 PM
Sorcha 12 Aug 01 - 02:11 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 01 - 02:31 PM
Sorcha 12 Aug 01 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Theo 12 Aug 01 - 03:16 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 01 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Reiver 2 12 Aug 01 - 04:44 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 01 - 04:49 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Theo 13 Aug 01 - 06:29 AM
Coyote Breath 13 Aug 01 - 10:13 PM
GUEST,Reiver 2 13 Aug 01 - 11:09 PM
katlaughing 13 Aug 01 - 11:28 PM
Irish sergeant 14 Aug 01 - 08:43 AM
John Nolan 14 Aug 01 - 11:27 PM
Coyote Breath 15 Aug 01 - 10:00 PM
Louie Roy 16 Aug 01 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Theo 17 Aug 01 - 06:26 PM
Abby Sale 17 Aug 01 - 10:29 PM
katlaughing 17 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Heo 18 Aug 01 - 07:03 AM
Louie Roy 18 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM
katlaughing 18 Aug 01 - 07:31 PM
John Nolan 18 Aug 01 - 09:04 PM
Jim Dixon 05 Jan 12 - 02:06 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Jan 12 - 04:10 PM
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Subject: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Theo
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:56 PM

Can anyone help me with the lyrics to the song:"Little Big Horn" I only know the first two sentences The indians gathered to hold a war dance Out along all along little big Horn. I would be very grateful.Thanks in advance.

Theo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:11 PM

This (click) is all I found and it doesn't include lyrics.


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Subject: Lyr Add: CUSTER'S LAST STAND
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM

Written by Dickson Hall and Gary Romero. Recorded by Harry Belafonte

In 1876 on that bright summer morn at the Little Big Horn
The arrogant Custer caught a few licks
When he tried to stand up to the Cheyenne and the Sioux
He was confident he'd win the fight
But he underrated the Indian's might

Of White Bull, Iron Lightning, Swift Bear and Gall
Black Moon, Little Wolf, Crazy Horse
And Sitting Bull chief of them all oh, oh
Oh Sitting Bull chief of them all

Oh the Indians tried to live in peace
On that bright summer morn at the Little Big Horn
They signed the treaty that warship cease
The white man was cold; he wanted gold
He killed all the buffalo, destroyed the corn
Even brought unknown diseases to the unborn

Custer's Cavalry pressed the attack
On that bright summer morn at the Little Big Horn
They thought they had driven the Indians back
But like a wave came an ocean of braves
Custer exclaimed to the noonday sun
Tell me where all these red-skins is coming from

Well it wasn't long 'fore the dust settled down
On that bright summer morn at the Little Big Horn
The soldiers was spread all over the ground
The battle was gone; the braves had won
Custer's men had fought their best
But the Indians had stood the test

There is also another one title "Little Big Horn" but judging from the words you knew, this should be the right one.

thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:31 PM

It's odd because the link Sorcha posted, which I had also found, lists the same lyrics as you knew, PLUS it shows the same authors, etc., yet the complete version doesn't have those lyrics, even though artist, etc. are the same.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:37 PM

OK, I see what happened. I went to the original link and got a 404 error so I posted the cached page. Guess I should have clicked refresh or something.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Theo
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:16 PM

Thans for your troubles Kat but I meant the ones that Sorcha refers to. Belafonte's version called "Custer's last stand" is slightly drifferent than the ones I mean called "Little Big Horn", which is sung by the Belafonte folk singers and starts off with: "The indians gathered to hold a war dance".

Thanks,

Theo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:41 PM

Sorry, Theo.

Sorcha, the first link you did was an out of date addy. The link I got the above from, Harry Belafonte & Friends has the song and lists the same info your link does. It seems that is the one song for which they have not completely entered the lyrics.

It does look as though you could contact them, Theo, if no one posts it here.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Reiver 2
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:44 PM

Just a trivia note from a Little Big Horn buff: the name of the Hunkpapa Lakota war leader is normally spelled Gall (at least in every account of the battle I've ever seen, which is quite a few) rather than Ghaul (see the 2nd stanza) above. I've never seen it spelled that way anywhere else. Not very important, but just for the record.

One further note: Gall is referred to in the book KILLING CUSTER, as having "fought the longest and hardest of any warrior that day (and) also lost the most -- his wife and children were killed by the soldiers." Sitting Bull apparently did not take a major part (some accounts say he wasn't involved in the fighting at all) in the actual fighting. Years later a scheming and unscrupulous Indian Agent induced Gall to brand Sitting Bull a coward, a charge that is patently false.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:49 PM

Thanks, Riever2, I knew something didn't look right about that. It's the way it was on the website I copied it from. I have corrected it, though. It may have just been a typo on someone's part at that site.

Mitakuye Oyasin,

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM

Sitting Bull was in the camp, making what we would call "strong medicine". He had earlier had a vision of soldiers falling into the camp, defeated by the Lakota and Cheyenne. His vision and his medicine proved accurate and effective that day. Sitting Bull was the center, at the heart of the camp, and that was well understood by the warriors who rode out to fight.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Theo
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 06:29 AM

HI Kat,

I contacted Harry Belafonte and friends, but they don't have the lyrics. So hereby I do another call. Thanks

Theo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:13 PM

I rather prefer to hear the battle referred to as "the battle of the greasy grass".

But Little Big Horn is , after all, what every one knows it as.

Its kinda like calling Goyathlay "Geronimo"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Reiver 2
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:09 PM

James Welch, who's KILLING CUSTER, is based on Indian accounts of the battle, has this to say about Sitting Bull's role (pp 157-158).

"Which brings up another mystery surrounding the Battle of the Little Bighorn: Where was Sitting Bull during the fight? Depending on which scholar you read, he was making medicine in his tepee, he was riding at the front of his warriors shouting, 'Brave up, brave up," he was riding herd on the women and children in the center of the camp, or he was cowering behind them. These various accounts of his whereabouts were furnished by Indian people who were in the village. Some of them are honest recollections, but some are inspired by adulation or jealousy...

The truth is that Sitting Bull was forty-two years old at the time of the battle, an advanced age for a warrior. By contrast, Gall was twenty-nine, prime fighting age... And (Sitting Bull) was a chief, not an active war leader.

The most probable sequence of Sitting Bull's movements, based on the majority of accounts, is that he mounted shortly after Reno's attack, shouting encouragement -- definitely not instructions, as some scholars have suggested, since Indians of that time in the heat of battle were not inclined to listen. Then he made his way through the village, gathering women and children and the old ones, persuading them to stay put in the safety of the village, or just west of the village, near the hills...."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:28 PM

Coyote Breath, I, too prefer to hear it referred to Battle of the Greasy Grass.

There are some very interesting accounts at this site about Sitting Bull, one in particular by a person who knew him: Tatanka Iyotake.

There are also some first-hand accounts by a captive of his and other whitehides who knew him at this site.

Also, there is a really good book out: "Soldiers Falling Into Camp: The Battles at the Rosebud and the Little Big Horn" A collection of writings by Robert Kammen, Fredrick Lefthand and Joe Marshall that present both the Indian and the white soldier's perspectives of them two historic battles.

Bob Kammen used to be one of my neighbours and Joe Marshall, a Lakotah, used to teach at the college here. He is a fantastic lecturer.

Don't worry, Theo, someone will turn up the lyrics!*smle*

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 08:43 AM

My understanding is that Sitting Bull was making medicine. From what I've read, no-one ever accused him of being a coward. If Gall was later induced to do so, I've never seen a reference to it. Greasy Grass or Little Big Horn it remains a part of our shared heritages. The important lesson of Greasy Grass is we the people need to ignore stupid and bigoted leaders and forge our own bonds of friendship so the greasy grasses and Wounded Knees don't happen again. Kindest Reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: John Nolan
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:27 PM

Visited the battlefield in early August and was astonished, if not disturbed to see that that apart from the roughly 220 gravemarkers for Custer and his men, a huge part of the site was given over to a national cemetery for thousands of US veterans, some of whom have died comparatively recently. There was also a notice which said that a memorial for some 150 Native Americans who fell in the battle would be constructed if and when the money is raised. They sound like second class citizens to me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 10:00 PM

Wow, I'm glad to have been forewarned about the nature of the battlefield. We are visiting in September. The remark about an American Indian memorial is very disturbing and yes they are treated as second class (or less) citizens in most all things. I won't repeat what I have heard used to describe these gracious people by some locals on my last visit to Wyoming, but it is fair to say that there is still strong prejudice and rampant bigotry.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Louie Roy
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 10:43 AM

Coyote Breath,in your last posting you indicated that the battle of the Little Big Horn was in Wyoming,but it is in Montana


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Theo
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:26 PM

I've learned a lot about the battle at little big horn. But still I didn't receive the lyrics to the song sung by The Belafonte folk sings in 1958 Is there no one that can help me here, The twoo beginning sentences I already mentioned in my first thread I'm looking over 30 years for those lyrics and woeld be very grateful if anybody would be so kind to send them to me. mabay write them from an old Blafonte folk sings album called;"AT home and Abroad RCA LSP 2309. I thank you in advance

Theo The Netherlands E-Mail adress; thwolters@home.nl


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 10:29 PM

Good research All, and good links, Kat. Interesting feller, he was. Also interesting the leader of the event, Crazy Horse.

Lately (these past 24 years) I've had an interest in the Little Big Horn battle as my company wrote life insurance on Custer & five of his officers. Company lore (and it's gotta be at least 100 years old) is that the Company is still hunting for the fool agent that wrote the policies. One of our handouts is a fax of the death register for the six men - - - since you will ask, it was $5,000 each, a good size for those days. I'm not aware we held any paper on the NAs.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM

Coyote Breath, it is too true that there is still so much racism in Wyoming and in South Dakota, esp. around the reservations, but there are people who work to change that through education. (I was assuming you meant you'd traveled through Wyoming to the battlefield in MT.)

In my research when writing articles on just such issues, I've run across, or heard first-hand, accounts of unspeakable prejudice and crimes against many minority people. In fact, I just read some in a discussion group, today.

I am grateful I was not raised with such prejudice and it has stood me in good stead over the years with many friends/family from diverse cultures, but mostly among Native Americans.

THEO, hang in there! Somehow, we will find those lyrics for you!!

gehele beste,

kat (hope the translation program got it right!*BG*)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: GUEST,Heo
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 07:03 AM

Hi Kat,

Thank you for your encouragement, but as I already said if I don´t get the lyrics I leatned a lot about Little Big Horn.

Het aller beste (all the best)

Theo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Louie Roy
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

Kat,I agree with you 100 percent.In the 1950s I had the privledge to work on the reservation in Plains MT for a group of Indians who owned a sawmill.There were 50 Indian families living in this camp and they were they best and truest friends I've had the honor of meeting throughout my life.There are many of these who have crossed the great devide,but all who are still alive I still kep in touch with them.An Indian friend is a friend for life. I worked there for 6 years. Louie Roy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 07:31 PM

Thanks, Louie. I've got a neighbour who is the sister of a Lakotah who held a sweat down here which I was privileged to a part of and my sisters, who are twins, just went to work teaching 1st and 3rd grade on the Hopi Reservation in Arizona. It is already proving to be a very rewarding and interesting experience. Thay had a lot of Hopi friends in college and so are getting back in touch with that very special culture.

Thanks, Theo! I still think we'll be able to find the lyrics!*bg* My friend who has been in radio all of hsi life, said to look into this program at CBC: Basic Black. He said people call in with fragments of songs, they research it and then perform it on air at a later time. He said they are really good!

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: John Nolan
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:04 PM

Heo: Sorry, no lyrics, but with a magnifying glass you can read the inscriptions of the Little Big Horn grave markers at www.stephaniepiro.com/news_page.htm


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 02:06 PM

I got the following discographical information from WorldCat.org; then I verified the dates and added the catalog numbers from Billboard (via Google Books):

LITTLE BIG HORN appeared on "The Belafonte Folk Singers at Home and Abroad" (RCA Victor LSP 2309 ©1961.)

CUSTER'S LAST STAND appeared on Harry Belafonte's album "Calypso Carnival" (RCA Victor LSP 4521 ©1970.)


ASCAP.com says:

LITTLE BIG HORN (which it confirms was performed by the Belafonte Folk Singers) was written by Nicholas A Catsos and Floyd Riley Shepard. It was also recorded by the Robert De Cormier Chorale.

It also indicates Dickson Hall is an alias of Floyd Riley Shepard, and Gary Romero is an alias of Nicholas A Catsos.

ASCAP lists several songs called CUSTER'S LAST STAND but it doesn't connect any of them to Harry Belafonte, or to either of the above songwriters. Likewise for BMI.


Kat doesn't say where she got her lyrics but it looks like she got them from here: http://www.akh.se/lyrics/custers_last_stand.htm

In her next message, I think she's referring to this page at the same web site: http://www.akh.se/lyrics/little_big_horn.htm

Since the discographical information provided at that web site agrees with what I found earlier, I am encouraged to think that the lyrics and other information there are reliable, although the posted lyrics for LITTLE BIG HORN are obviously incomplete.

I haven't heard complete versions of either recording, but my guess is, they are two somewhat different versions of the same song. The last-mentioned web site provides brief excerpts of both songs, and there are considerable differences, but at least the following lines appear in both versions:

...And Sitting Bull chief of them all,
Oh, Sitting Bull chief of them all.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Big Horn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:10 PM

It might be of interest to take a look at the recent(?) Smithsonian Magazine article:

How the Little Bighorn was Won that is based on the reports from some 50 or so Indian participants, collected mostly immediately after the battle.

There were NO SURVIVORS on the losing side, so all the numersous analyses and historical "facts" so frequently reported are based on speculations, hallucinations, and plain ol outright lies to save face for the "gallant idiots" on that side.

There have been virtually no "scholarly papers" using what the survivors, who were there, reported as first-person accounts.

It's an interesting account, although it is a fairly long article. (There may be a pdf that you can download for later reading, but pdfs from the site often omit most of the illustrations. I have a pdf version on my computer, with the pictures, but don't recall whether it was a direct download or whether I made it from the html version or scanned it from the magazine. Illustrations are often posted at separate links in a sidebar.)

John


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