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Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!

DigiTrad:
BANANA BOAT SONG
BELAMENA
CHOUCOUNE
COME BACK, LIZA
EDEN WAS JUST LIKE THIS
JAMAICA FAREWELL
TURN AROUND
YELLOW BIRD


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Rick Fielding 16 Oct 02 - 01:35 AM
Sorcha 16 Oct 02 - 01:40 AM
Deckman 16 Oct 02 - 03:27 AM
GUEST 16 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Allan Terego 16 Oct 02 - 11:43 AM
DougR 16 Oct 02 - 12:09 PM
GUEST 16 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM
Peter T. 16 Oct 02 - 01:31 PM
Kim C 16 Oct 02 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,chinmusic 16 Oct 02 - 02:49 PM
DougR 16 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM
Rick Fielding 16 Oct 02 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,Tony Blairs buddy 16 Oct 02 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Claymore 16 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 16 Oct 02 - 04:00 PM
DougR 16 Oct 02 - 05:00 PM
DougR 16 Oct 02 - 05:06 PM
Peter T. 17 Oct 02 - 09:54 AM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM
Rick Fielding 17 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Claymore 17 Oct 02 - 11:27 AM
Peter T. 17 Oct 02 - 12:02 PM
Alice 17 Oct 02 - 12:03 PM
Alice 17 Oct 02 - 12:05 PM
Rick Fielding 17 Oct 02 - 02:04 PM
Peter T. 17 Oct 02 - 02:19 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 02 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 17 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM
Kim C 17 Oct 02 - 05:14 PM
DougR 17 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Claymore 17 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 17 Oct 02 - 07:40 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 02 - 07:50 PM
Genie 17 Oct 02 - 08:30 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 02 - 09:28 PM
DougR 17 Oct 02 - 10:17 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 02 - 10:39 PM
Bobert 17 Oct 02 - 10:54 PM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 02 - 11:11 PM
DougR 17 Oct 02 - 11:44 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 02 - 12:43 AM
Mark Clark 18 Oct 02 - 01:48 AM
DougR 18 Oct 02 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 18 Oct 02 - 08:02 AM
Bobert 18 Oct 02 - 08:43 AM
Peter T. 18 Oct 02 - 10:17 AM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM
Mark Clark 18 Oct 02 - 01:17 PM
Peter T. 22 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM
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Subject: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:35 AM

I just watched Harry belafonte speak for the better part of an hour on the Larry King show.

I'm still in a bit of shock.

I've never before witnessed a major 'Mainstream' figure speak out on television with such passion, honesty, articulateness and sheer guts. Larry kept giving him opportunities to back track a bit, and probably save himself from the flack he'll surely get, but Belafonte stood his ground.

He was magnificent.

At times the current political idiocy (decisions being made in both Canada AND The United States, by leaders who seem incapable of coherent expression) has made me VERY cynical......but tonight, I'm proud to be in the same profession as Mr. Belafonte.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:40 AM

He is still alive?? I thought he died sevaral years ago; will wonders never cease.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:27 AM

Harry has been an outspoken leader all of his life. I agree he was magnificant. He even had Larry stumbling a couple of times. I found it most interesting when Larry kept trying to push Harry into a corner by personalizing it about Powell, and Harry refused to go there. He said it was Powells POLICIES, meaning Bushes Iraq war, that he was objecting to. Oh that our fearless leader speak (understand)as well. CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

For those of us missed the show, perhaps you could summarize what Mr. Belafonte had to say. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:43 AM

I'm glad you didn't try to paraphrase what the esteemed Mr. Belafonte said so eloquently. It wasn't 'what' he said it was 'how' he said it. There are obviously many showbiz folks who are horrified at this frightening and increasingly isolated space we find ourselves in, but for a prominent black activist and entertainer to speak out against the behaviour of two people of his own race takes gigantic cojones.

Al


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:09 PM

I can't share your enthusiasm for what Mr. Belafonte said Rick. I personally think he should stick to his singing, which he does very well.

It is difficult for me to understand why people like Belafonte can complain about the fact that minorites are never given the opportunity to occupy important positions in government, then bitch and berate them when they are.

Colin Powell and Condy Rice serve in two of the most powerful jobs in the U. S. government. They got there because they were the best people for the job. Had they served in those same positions in an administration more sympathetic with Harry's left-wing point of view, I'm sure his interview with Larry King would have come off quite differently.

I think HB owes Secretary Powell and Condy Rice an apology for his insults.

Incidentially, that interview ran a few days ago in the U. S. and there has been considerable negative fall-out as a result.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM

brandon parva


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:31 PM

transcript!


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 01:41 PM

I think he has the right to say whatever he wants. Howsomever, I don't think Colin Powell got where he is by kissing Massa's ass, and I think it was unfortunate for Harry to imply such.

Whether or not one agrees with General Powell's politics, I think it is wrong to suggest that he achieved his position by simply being a Yes-Man, and bringing his race into it. I thought that was something the black community was trying to eliminate.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,chinmusic
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 02:49 PM

Every since the Civil Rights Movement gained momentum in the 60's, Harry Belafonte has been at the forefront of these, and other issues. Until I saw Larry King's show last night, I really didn't understand what an articulate and well informed man he is. His various positions on American policies was brave, and ever since 9/11, it seems to be the norm to be a flagwaver in the extreme. I don't mean to underestimate the enormity of 9/11, or the pain caused to the American people, but one cannot lose their perspective on the issues. When hot button topics are discussed on programs like Larry King, some guests go off on verbal rampages, thereby becoming very annoying and boring to a viewer. What impressed me with Mr. Belafonte was not only his passion, but his ability to keep his answers concise and to the point, but also, keeping his emotions in check, as well. Also, because one one of black brothers or sisters had gained positions of power, he based his opinions on their actions, not on their colour. Now that's non discrimination. Quite often people percieve dissidents as the misinformed at best or traitors at worst, when in fact, they are true patriots. Loving one's country can include criticisms of its policies. It's just that they have the courage to speak their viewpoints of the truth, as unpopular as it may sound to the rest of society. It reminds me of what a void we have in North America, in terms of leadership. Bush and Chretien should take note. Folks like H. Belafonte and Michael Moore have gained new respect for me, because they have the balls to tell it like it is. Following the council of the UN should guide Bush's actions, instead of bullying the rest of the world with his bluster and rhetoric. So hats off to Mr. Belafonte for his wisdom and courage to tell it like it is last night on Larry King. I'm with you on this one, Rick.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM

Or at least Belafonte and Moore tell it they way they and you see it, right chinmusic?

kim: I totally agree Belafonte can say anything he wants to say. Did it take courage? I don't think so. Who is Belafonte beholden to? He can say anything he bloody well pleases without fear of retrabution.

An African-American has been appointed Secretary of State of the United States. The first in history. One would think the Black community would be rejoicing, but instead ...well no point in repeating myself.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:31 PM

Hi Doug. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! Cheers my friend. And not only that, I DON'T really like his singing, ha ha!

What I found remarkable about Belafonte's appearance was not his stance on the issue of the American Government's policies, or even Powell's complicity in it. After all, many folks are now starting to come out of the woodwork and take what is becoming less and less an unpopular (and dangerous) stand.

What knocked me out was the sheer improvised elegance and class with WHICH he expressed his opinion. His alluding to slavery times was tough AND probably very cruel (you could see that Powell was taken aback) but obviously there are a lot of good people who feel that way, but would not have the words to express it in the way he did.

This situation is absolutely consistant with own my politics......I feel that it is MUCH more important to hold your OWN side accountable when they come to power. I was very critical of Bill Clinton for allowing the opportunity of being a great President fly out the window, simply because of sheer recklessness and corruption. I've really tried to give the current President a chance, and so haven't jumped into any of the "Bush is an idiot" threads here. Over the last couple of weeks however I've been simply amazed at how he's been expressing himself. Repeating simplistic phrases over and over and over again like "we got 'em on the run" and "no place to hide", along with the "weapons of mass des...." and "gassed hissown people"..... He now appears to me to be a man who is incapable of expressing himself any differently than he did two days after 9/11. In "man on the street" interviews, private citizens appear to be parroting these phrases back, so I guess the technique works.

Belafonte apparently feels that Colin and Condi simply could NOT (in their hearts) support the current Republican response to 9/11, or other policies which he feels threaten the lives of poor people, not just in the States but throughout the world.

Personally I DON'T agree with everything he said....I'm a bit TOO cynical for that, ha ha! But the way the man spoke was an inspiration.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Tony Blairs buddy
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:35 PM

"An African-American has been appointed Secretary of State of the United States. The first in history. One would think the Black community would be rejoicing, but instead ...well no point in repeating myself."

How patronising can you get..This to me confirms everything Mr Belafonte said about "Slaves living in the house as long as they served their masters"...All its served to prove is that politicians and military types are equaly cynical disregarders of simple right and wrong....Whatever their colour...One surely has to question the good intentions of any politician willing to share political office with a weakminded space cadet like Mr WWW Bush....any other decisions that follow such a willingness can only be questionable..

TBB....


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM

Mr. Belafonte qualifications for judging the actions of the US Secretary of State is... what? That thirty years ago he memorized a song in pidgin English?

That he has a opinion at all is closer related to the fact he has an asshole than a mind, because in the US, in order to have an opinion, it is only required that he have the former, not the latter.

He states that he was characterizing Gen. Powell's actions and not his race by comparing "Massa" and the "Big House". Blacks have long complained that the College Boards are culturally biased because of the word-comparison test questions, (even though Asians consistantly outscore both blacks and whites on the tests). After hearing Mr. Belafonte, they may have a point.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:00 PM

I saw a portion of it, and I agree that Belafonte was superb. Whether or not someone else thinks so depends largely upon their already established mindset...who they think is trustworthy...who they assume are the "good guys" in global politics, and so on. Most people are far more subjective than they think they are.

What Harry said did take a lot of courage, not because it wasn't true, but simply because he lives in the USA, and must deal with people's reactions to what he said. What he did say will shock very few people who are not Americans, but it's a different story inside America. You almost have to have lived there as a non-American to appreciate how different...

Everyone grows up believing certain forms of national mythology, but nowhere is the national mythology likely to be much more aggressive and extraordinary than in the United States of America. And how does the rest of the world feel? Frightened, that's how. With good reason. The USA is seen to be a country capable of anything, and arrogant and paranoid enough to do anything, and powerful enough to accomplish it to boot.

In Saddam's case, only the first two of those conditions apply, which is precisely why far more people fear the USA than fear Saddam.

I hope that no one misconstrues this as an attack on my part against individual Americans. It is not. I am objecting to the policies of a national administration, not to its citizenry (who are unfortunately taken along for the ride). It is entirely possible that the people leading that national administration believe in their hearts that they are doing the right thing, too. If so, well, that is very, very unfortunate...but it would not be too surprising. In fact, it would be typical of most human beings to think that way.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:00 PM

Rick, my friend, nothing wrong in agreeing to disagree. Looks like we disagree on the whole shooting match, because I kinda like his singing.

DougR (grin)


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:06 PM

Oops. Rick I added to my reply but posted it to the Bush Iraqi thread by mistake. Too lazy to repeat it here.
:>)
DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:54 AM

What I was struck by in reading the transcript was the obsession Larry King had with "the big question" -- did HB do wrong by making this comparison? -- King kept going around this question long after HB had made his answer, and he had to repeat virtually the same answer about 10 times. As soon as Belafonte shifted topics, onto the more important questions about the war, about American international policy, whatever, King immediately became nervous and wanted to go back to the clash of two people. It would be a very good transcript to show to students about the difficulty of having intelligent debates on important topics on television, given the drive of contemporary journalism.


Reading the transcript, it appears to me that Belafonte was basically wrong, and should have apologised to Powell. That he stood his ground was admirable, as Rick points out, and that someone has the guts to speak out in an atmosphere of general cowering is fine, but as an argument, Larry King's main points were right. Simply because Belafonte disagrees with Powell (as I do) about Iraq, does not give Belafonte the right to argue that Powell and Rice are somehow betraying black people in general.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

Good analysis, Peter! I think you have hit on the essential problem regarding television talk shows and the media in general. They have an agenda to "entertain", rather than enlighten or inform... and to deal with sensationalism and focus on personalities, rather than dealing with larger and more important issues in a complex, detailed, factual manner. America's wars, for instance, are always focused on a personality...whether it be Castro, Quadaffi, Noriega, Saddam, Milosevic, or whoever. This is a dumb way to handle great global and social issues, but they do it that way simply because they think it will WORK...to motivate a not very well informed public to support a not very honest national policy. In other words, it's a propaganda technique...a primitive one...but, by golly, it works! The same propaganda technique is used by others too, of course, not just by the USA.

I didn't see the whole show, just a piece of it. That I even saw that was sort of accidental, because I don't own a television, but it was fortuitous that I heard it on someone else's set.

I'm intrigued by what you've said, and will read the transcript later...I'm too busy just now.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM

Fascinating Peter. I just read the transcription and it seems like a completely different show than the one I watched. T'was the facial expressions, twitches, and body language that made the words come alive for me. Larry was indeed uncomfortable (he says he's buddies with both guys) and seemed almost desperate to get HB to back off a bit or state his opinion in a way that would show SOME ambiguity.

Once again, (for the folks who turn complicated issues into simple Right-Left arguments) I would NEVER criticize someone in the WAY HB did. For two reasons...number one, I think he was a bit naive to expect that anyone (of any colour) would be invited into the hierarchy without agreeing to toe the line, and secondly, the focus will now be entirely on HARRY, and not on his complaint.

After three days of reflection, my take is a bit different than it was right after seeing the program. What I remember clearly is that "I felt that a public/political figure was speaking to me with complete 100% HONESTY". That hasn't happened in a lonnnnng time.

I've felt it a BIT when I've heard Gov. Jesse Ventura or Ralph Nader speak, but even those two still have to back track on their real views at times. Certainly watching Gore and Bush and their TV supporters blather on to their constituencies made me WANT to hear someone sound honest, whether I agree totally with their point of view or not. Harry was believable to me.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:27 AM

Well finally a little logic has lightly dusted this thread.

Belafonte was wrong at virtually every level, dispite the fact that he gained cute points from those so anxious to hear any opposition to the Bush poicies, that they imbue the speaker with the adjectives reasoned, articulate, lucid... which is absolute claptrap.

Forget that the comments about Powell were racist at every level, and try and imagine the outcry if any white person had said them. That wasn't articulation, that was sleeze at its smarmiest.

But lets not leave it there, Belafonte was wrong on his facts. His claim that Powell was bending his knee to his "Massa", was so wrong that it has to be taken as a deliberate lie by Belafonte. In the National and International press, the continuing story has been about how Powell has manuevered Bush into doing the very things that Powell thought needed to be done (going to the UN, renewed focus on the consultation with other nations, reducing the belligerent language to by-stander nations, etc.) In fact the National press has had the Powell influence over Bush as a major story for the past several weeks.

And anyone with the reptilian level of appreciation of American politics, knows that if Powell resigned over any issue with the Bush Administration, Bush has got serious problems. Moreover, any person with the memory of a hampster, will remember that one of the first things that candidate Bush did during the election campaign, was to trumpet his desire to appoint Colin Powell as his SecState, long before he was elected. Now my question to the "Boogaloo" Belafonte crowd is simianly simple, "Who is kneeling at whose table?"

At the point that that qustion is researched and responded to, Mr. Belafonte will rightly be regarded like Mark Twain's famous dog, who when observed to be standing on his hind legs, Twain commented that "It wasen't so much that he did it well, but that he did it at all..."


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:02 PM

Hardly a deliberate lie. Harry Belafonte's logic in the specific argument may be wrong -- but it is obvious to anyone even at the simian level that Colin Powell provides a great deal of cover for a Republican President whose party's ethics currently are somewhat to the right of Augusta National Golf Club. I think there is mutual kneeling and asslicking going on (which raises a Monica Lewinsky vision of a different sort). What Powell thinks he is doing among these disgusting reptiles is an open question that can be rightly asked. What any decent person would be doing among these reptiles is an open question. He seems to be a decent enough sort of person -- in fact, he is a relative of mine (true!), so he must have something going for him. I suppose the real question is: what is the nature of his ambition, and why has he picked this route?

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:03 PM

Harry Belafonte could have expressed his point of view without the label of house slave that he put on Colin Powell. He weakened his position by doing that and he should apologize. I've never heard or read a statement by Colin Powell that would stoop to a personal attack. If Belafonte wants to continue to be involved with political debate, he should brush up on the technique of logical argumentation. He did his political camp no good by insulting Powell.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 12:05 PM

Let me add that I have been contacting my congressional representatives with emails and phone calls to let them know I oppose Bush's point of view about unilateral attack of Iraq, but I do not agree with what Belafonte went about doing on Larry King.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 02:04 PM

Peter....You are related to Colin Powell?

Explain! I am certainly enjoying a thread where the term "Reptilian" is used, but if you really ARE related to Powell, can you get a message to him for me?

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 02:19 PM

Yes, my mother's family are all "Cootes of Mountrath", and an ancestor, Sir Eyre Coote, was the father, through a black servant (surprise), of the ancestors of Colin Powell. This was reported a couple of years ago, and Sir Christopher Coote, the 14th Baronet, welcomed him into the family on behalf of us all.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:04 PM

Hey, I gotta agree with Harry. Powell should have quit or at least put up as much fight as Cheney and Rumsfeld do. Actually, he should have never agreed to be Secretary of State for George Bush in the first place. He's smarter than that, or one would think. The safe money is that should Bush actaully be *elected* president in '04 that Powell will bail. He oughtta bail now and would except he has a level of pride and loyalty. Hmmmmmmm? Sounds like the slaves that live in the plantation house to me.

And so Harry speaks up and puts a lot of policy isssues on the line and look at the way his detractors attack. They go for that one little nugget that they, being the lilly white detractors that they are, hone on on something that they hypocritically know little or nothing about which is racism. Well, unless it's from the perspective of being *born* white... Hmmmmmmm?

And since they don't have a clue what Harry was talking about, ahhh, because they are steeped in their own whiteness, now they're gonna go about and discredit everything else that Harry Belafonte stands for. Like social justice in the world. Like not bullying the world. You know, all stuff that the right winged media talk show folks (which make up just about the entire media...) tell us is evil. Yeah, right.

So one person on the other side gets ahold of the microphone for a few minutes and tyhe right winger cry like crybabies. Danged, they own the media, they own the means of production, they own the labor force and own the minds of a lot of folks who don't have a clue. And so when one person who satnds for justice stands up and get a few minutes of microphone time, we gotta put up with all the wailin', wringing of hands, aqusations, and down right meanspirited attacks on a man who has given more than all the crybabies combined...

They killed off Bobby Kennedy....

They killed off Martin Luther King...

They danced in streets the night that Malcolm X was killed...

And now they cry if someone they don't like gets heard?

Give me a break.

Beam my boney butt up...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM

DougR
(quote)
"It is difficult for me to understand why people like Belafonte can complain about the fact that minorites are never given the opportunity to occupy important positions in government, then bitch and berate them when they are."

Well then try this one on for size, there, Doug R. At the time Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall held a short press conference to announce he was retiring ( and whom died shortly after his leaving ) he was asked what his opinion of Bush's new token appointee, Clarence Thomas, was and the quote that still resounds in my mind's ear was " A black snake is just as likely to bite you as a white snake ".
( And I don'ts recalls no Justice Thurgood ever appearing in none dem shows at de Apollo let alone do Hollywood. )

Meanwhile add to that the fact that the Republican Congress is looking mighty enemic of late now that their only *ever* black
representative , J.C.Watts , is retiring.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:14 PM

Why is it so hard for anyone to believe that Colin Powell might actually AGREE with the President? Is there some law against black people being conservative?

Powell isn't there to just serve the black community. He's there to serve The Country. Unfortunately you can't do that without pissing some people off.

Harry didn't need to play the race card. I thought he had more class than that. It seems to me, just as an observer, that with those few comments, he negated everything he's worked for all these years.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM

Bobert: Will you go take a cold shower or something? I think you are over heating! It might even be clouding your thinking.

Peter T: pretty plain speaking. You got your point across I think. (not that I agree with it of course).

Kim: No, African-American's are not allowed to be conservatives.
Them's the rules.

Taliesn: Are you SURE J. C. Watts is the only African-American Republican in the House of Representatives? You could be right, of course. I never really thought about it. I just thought he was a Congressman.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM

There's nothin against balck folk being conservative. It's just that if Bush wanted a black conservatuive to serve as his Secretary of State then he could have found a' plenty takers. Problem is that Powell seemed to have a world view and some insights into the how to and how not to conduct foriegn policy, but he accepted a position that has not showcased *his* skills and knowledge. Quite the opposite.

So Harry Belafonte calls him on it and now you, Kim C, want to just go ahead a discredit a life's worth of humanistic activism by a man who could have done the same as Powell, but hasn't.

Excuse me, I'm not trying to come off as pompous or righteos here, but I'd suggest that anyone that quick to denounce the body of a man's life's acheivements, probably didn't think much of him to begin with...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM

Peter, You've got a problem... You see if Powell was ambitious (as you wondered the nature of) you might have remembered that CLINTON OFFERED HIM THE SAME DAMN JOB, AND HE TURNED THAT BAG OF PUS DOWN.

And that little fact blows Bobert out the door... Powell had a wide open opportunity to work on the Ol' Liberal Plantation where the rest of the "good" black folks be, and he politely turned them down. Whose Massa is angry now, don'cha know...

Sooo maybe it wasn't ambition, OOOOH GOD FORBID, maybe it was principle. I know it's hard for the moonstruck to conceive that someone of rational mentality could possibly disagree with their lunar calendar, and that any deviation from the "Party Line" must be due to nefarious machinations, or secret ambitions, but I find it hard to appeal to the senses of someone whose sole defense of Belafonte now consists of the statement "Well, It wasn't a deliberate lie..." and then wonders how someone who had the decency to turn down Clinton, could end up with Bush....

And Bobert, when you say "meanspirited attacks on a man that has given more than all the crybabies combined" is it possible that you actually meant Belafonte? Instead of Powell? Have you truely lost any sense of proportion?

As for Thurgood Marshall, I once asked Juan Williams, who had just done a book on Marshall, to please name even one major decision that Marshall authored. He could think of none. When you compare his writings with say, Scalia, he becomes almost inarticulate; maybe the snake comment was the best he could do...


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:40 PM

(quote)
"As for Thurgood Marshall, I once asked Juan Williams, who had just done a book on Marshall, to please name even one major decision that Marshall authored. He could think of none. .."

Well now you just hoh de doh right there , Rastas , because , for one damn thang we all gonna have to take that pontificatin' wid mo' dan a whollta grains of salt as you offer nothin' but just taking you're word fo' it : and on the internet yet. Yeah an' I be da Queen o' Sheba.

I'd much prefer to go to the source , as is my first resource of choice, as I'm sure I have the C-Span "Booknotes" session with Juan on his bio of ol' Thurgood on v-tape and that's precisely the kind of question Brian Lamb would ask.
"Scuse me ,Suh, fo' not just takin' yo words all face value-like.

(cont'd)
" When you compare his writings with say, Scalia, he becomes almost inarticulate; maybe the snake comment was the best he could do..."

Yassuh, I guess po' ol' Thurgood was justa standin' in de shaddah of that other Supreme Court illuminati, Clarence.
Man I bets y'all can can just testify to the heavens on ol' bright shinin' Clarence's writings.

So lay it on us, Reverend Claymo',de assembled congegation awaits yo' dissitations with bated breath ;-)


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 07:50 PM

Like Iz blown out the door because Powell wouldn't work for Clinton? Like I care, Claymore! I wouldn't have worked for him either but I wouldn't call him a "BAG OF PUSS" either. Might of fact, I wouldn't call anyone a *bag of puss* because once one stoops to name calling, the rest of their argument goes right down the drain. There are controlled rants and then....

Nevermind.

This is about Harry Belafonte...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Genie
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 08:30 PM

Just finished watching the last part of Phil Donahue's interview with Belafonte (it's now 5:30-ish, Pacific Time). If you folks didn't catch Harry on Larry, maybe you can catch him on Phil.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 09:28 PM

I find it curious that when a black person encounters hypocrisy or what he considers wrongful behaviour on the part of some other blacks...and has the guts to so state publicly...that he is accused of...racism! Wow. Remember that this happened to Chris Darden too, during the O.J. trial, and he wrote a book about it called "In Contempt". He was confronted with some extraordinary racism in action (arranged to protect O.J. and obfuscate the evidence)...pointed it out...and was then called "racist" for so doing by certain people who should have known better. Well, he had seen through the big game, that's all. It must have been quite a revelation to him when he did. When you've been schooled to think of yourself as a "victim", and then realize that your own community is playing a deceitful game...

The game is...even black people are not allowed to point out blatant racism when it is practiced by blacks or supposedly on behalf of blacks by the system in general...usually in order to achieve some larger objective which the system has in mind (which will not benefit blacks or whites or secure social justice).

My, my. Perhaps it is time to change the word "black" to the word "untouchable"...given certain circumstances.

And at the same time, racism against blacks remains a very serious problem. Obviously. And I know it. The trouble is, the scoundrels in this world merrily play it BOTH ways...and if you call them on it, they will call you "racist".

It's doubletalk. It's opportunism. And it is racism.

These are general observations on society, rather than specific comments regarding Harry Belafonte on the Larry King show (I still have not read the whole transcript.).

If you don't like it, and you think I'm "racist" for having said these things, well, too bad. I'm not. I just name hypocrisy when I see it, and I don't care who is doing it...I name it. Doesn't make any damn difference to me what colour their skin is or what religion or culture they belong to or what someone else did to them fifty or five hundred years ago. What they are doing right now is what matters to me.

I castigated the longhaired "hippies" too, back when I was one, for much the same reason. A lot of them were self-indulgent phonies and hypocrites, just riding on what their chosen lifestyle could give them in the way of quick gratification. Their obsession with recreational drugs was self-defeating, their 50-word vocabulary was fatuous, and their self-righteous sense of moral superiority to older people was ill-founded.

If there are any black people out there who are not afraid to point out self-serving hypocrisy when it is practiced by their own community, I salute them!

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:17 PM

Why, LH, it is hypocrisy that Colin Powell serves in the Bush administration? Are you among those who believe that African-Americans are allowed to serve in or support only one party's administration? Isn't that what Belafonte is saying? Colin Powell is a Uncle Tom, because he chose to serve in an administration Harry does not approve of?

I don't know whether any of you were able, or chose to watch Colin Powell's speech at the Alfred E. Smith dinner in New York City tonight. The Fox News Network was the only television network that chose to televise it as far as I could determine. It preimpted the Hannity and Combs show to carry the speech. Powell gave a very powerful speech, and did not come across as anyone's Uncle Tom.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:39 PM

Okay, I have now read the whole transcript. Looks like I got to hear the last half of it when I saw part of the show.

I have no problem with anything Harry Belafonte said. Sounds like straight, honest truthfullness to me...and it will not surprise Europeans, Asians, Africans or very many other people except a certain number of North Americans who aren't used to hearing such views openly expressed.

I'm sure it was upsetting to Colin Powell, but Harry was speaking metaphorically, not literally. He was trying to make a point about national policy and the apparent support of that policy by Colin Powell, a man whom Harry Belafonte clearly respects and in many ways admires.

I'd say it was a wake-up call. Whether it has that effect will remain to be seen.

I believe that Harry Belafonte is very appropriately defending not only the black community, but all humanity. And that is as it should be. We are simply one human community, and we should behave accordingly, rather than playing favourites, pandering to elitism, and perpetuating gross inequality. It is the inequalities in the world which have led to all the conflicts with which we are beset.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 10:54 PM

Man, when I grow up, LH, I wanta be able to write like you... Until then, I'm just glad to have you on the *real people's side*, thank you.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:11 PM

Well, thanks, Bobert, but we are all real people. Still, thanks anyway.

Doug - I don't know whether or not Colin Powell is being hypocritical. He may well believe strongly in what he is doing. I just don't know. I do think that Harry Belafonte believes strongly in what he is saying and doing. I guess time will tell who had the better judgement on this or that matter. I hope so, anyway. We shall see.

I know that it is just plain old human nature that causes each one of us to see the good side of views that jibe well with our own...and the bad side of those that don't. Due to this, I honestly have compassion for most people I disagree with most of the time (except when I momentarily overreact emotionally to something)...and...I am fairly well aware of my own fallibility too. Like everyone else, I'm working with only partial information, and through the lens of my own prejudices and beliefs.

Like Harry Belafonte...and maybe like Colin Powell too...I call it passionately the way I see it, and hope that my vision is clear.

And so it goes...

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 11:44 PM

L.H.: why are you so confident that Belafonte is sincere, but are hesitant to recognize that Powell is too? Is it that you simply can't conceive that someone might have a legitimate point of view that differs from yours? If so, I find that very interesting. I thought liberals were liberal, and that included embracing the fact that everyone's point of view is legitmate, even if differs from one's own.

Genie: I just saw the Phil Donohue interview with Belafonte. Here is what I got from it. Tell me if you believe I am wrong. Colin Powell is guilty of one thing: his political philosophy differs from Harry Belafonte's.

If Colin Powell walked lock-step with Belafonte, he would be a hero, a great American, a real political leader for Black people. Am I right?

I was interested that Phil Donohue expressed the opinion that he thought it was a good thing that Colin Powell and Condi Rice were Republicans, and urged more African-Americans to join the Republican party, because they might be able to teach us "Right-Wing Christian Conservatives" the right way to go. Talk about patronizing.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 12:43 AM

The reason I'm so sure about Belafonte is mostly just that I saw him in that particular interview, and could plainly see that he cared deeply about what he was saying. No other reason than that.

Well, no, one more reason... He is more free to speak than Colin Powell, for the simple reason that he is not a politician. I think the realities of politics virtually require most politicians to say misleading things and outright lies from time to time. In that sense, they are not as free as private citizens to speak their minds. This doesn't mean they are worse people, it means they are in a more difficult spot. I suspect that you or I would both have to be a lot more careful what we said in public if we were Senators or Congressmen. Careers can be broken by one careless (or honest) statement when you're in politics.

So...I look on a politician more skeptically, generally speaking, than I do on most people, simply because of the nature of his job. I'm suspicious of ALL politicians, not just the right-wing ones. They have virtually ALL betrayed the voters in this country, whether or not they were "liberal" or "conservative". I kid you not.

Harry Belafonte has nothing to gain and a good deal to lose by being so candid, and he's not under the pressure of representing a political party or an administration. He said as much himself, when explaining to a caller why he had not chosen to run for office.

Donahue's comment IS patronizing. Agreed. I laughed out loud the other day when I heard a right-wing spokesman (I forget who) stating quite seriously his belief that left wingers are "fuzzy thinkers and just not very smart". Yikes! You know why I laughed? Because that is EXACTLY what left wingers think about right wingers!!! (Whether or not they say it...)

And you know what? They are both wrong. There are some exceedingly bright people in both camps, and always will be. There are also some dummies in both camps and always will be. But it is the common conceit of both to imagine that the opposing side is just basically...a bit simple-minded.

It's not the case at all. People should not make the mistake of underestimating their erstwhile opponents in such a facile manner...or of condescending to them either.

It reminds me of the myths that were prevalent early in World War II. The Japanese (initially) thought that Americans were soft, decadent, cowardly, and lacking in determination when the going got tough. The Americans (initially) thought that the Japanese were nearsighted, incompetent, couldn't aim a gun properly (supposedly because they couldn't close only one eye at a time!!!), had outmoded airplanes which were inferior copies of western designs (Ha!), and similar ludicrous nonsense.

They were both utterly dead wrong. Couldn't have been wronger.

The fact is, Doug, some "liberals" are anything but liberal, some are fools, some are brilliant, and some are just average. I can say the same thing about conservatives. Barbara Amiel is a brilliant conservative (Canadian). I seldom agree with her, but she is one sharp cookie. And I'm sure she is sincere. She bugs me, and I'm sure I would bug her if I wrote a national column, but I would never make the mistake of holding her in contempt, just cos she's on the other side of the argument.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:48 AM

I didn't get the idea that Belefonte disapproves of Powell because they have differing political views. He actually went out of his way tonight to say that there is much he admires in Powell. His criticism of Powell seemed to stem from the fact that Powell initially said publicly that he didn't think attacking Iraq was a good idea and seemed to be trying to move the administration away from the idea. It seems reasonable to assume that Powell's early remarks were based on his training, experience and personal morality. Then, in the view of many observers including Belafonte, ol' Massa told this boy what he should be thinking or at least saying and, like a good house boy, he quickly came around. I think it's Powell's apparent failure to stick with what he believes that Belafonte finds disapointing; and that only because Powell was in a position to do Afraican Americans and the country a lot of good but bowed to Massa's will instead.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 02:34 AM

So, Mark. Once one has taken a position, one should never veer from that position? Is that your belief? Suppose Powell felt he could gain more from those who disagreed with him by compromising a bit and perhaps persuading them to move more in the direction he felt the administration should go, rather than digging in his heels? If you recall, Bush was talking much more hawkishly a month ago than he is today.

Is it possible Colin Powell could be responsible or at least partially responsible for that? Frankly, I think that may be the case. From what I have read and heard, Bush (who really isn't as dumb as most of my liberal friends on the Mudcat think he is) likes to hear opposing views and encourages it. He makes the final decision, but only after considering all the arguments from both sides.

Powell never said, I don't think, that invasion of Iraq was totally out, as far as he was concerned. He did urge going through the United Nations (which Bush did), and urged building a coalition (which Bush is attempting to do).

If one takes the position that nothing should be done about Iraq, that Saddam should be left alone to build whatever arsenal he wishes to, then I suppose it's a moot point.

Be that as it may, I don't see how one could interpret what Belafonte said about Powell as anything other than that Powell was an "Uncle Tom" because he didn't agree with his POV.

L.H.: I think I asked the question before, but no one replied. Since you brought it up again perhaps you will answer it for me: what does Harry Belafonte have to lose by making the statements he made? Why do you and others think it took such great courage? He is a very rich man. He is beholden to no one. He will get gigs when he wants them. Enlighten me.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 08:02 AM

Did any of the Belafonte critics here ever consider that his strategically chosen "words" , knowing what effect they would have on a fellow black public figure , was not meant as a personal attack so much as a goad to *do the right thing*
because everyone is watching him.

BTW: With all due respect for Colin Powell ( and I do as I have several of his speeches and symposium appearances given before joining the Dubya House thanks again to C-span )
truth be told he was every bit a part of the decision-making when Papa Bush turned tail short of finishing Saddam's regime , when it would have been extremely *prudent*, and now we're here *11 years later* with a more practiced Saddam .

Makes one wonder out loud if Saddam is such a threat now *all of a sudden* why he wasn't part of Bush's campaign speeches
or why there was no drumbeat even before 9/11.

Bottomline: The Dubya White House gang didn't even have Saddam on its radar considering how off-guard they were when 9/11 did happen. If they were *on top of it* they could've produced proof of Saddam's threat fully a year ago when the world *was*
freshly outraged.

Where does Colin Powell fit in all of this?
He is a famously *moderate* Republican and it's that reason that there have been all these reports of *differences of opinion*in Dubya's *brain trust* within.

Belafonte knows this atleast as well as I do and was sending Powell a message he knew Powell would *get*.
How Powell goes about doing the right thing remains to be seen. If he sees things going horribly wrong just for the ideological play he can always resign.

It always amuses me how so-called *conservatives* never recognize ,let alone own up , to the fact that there are subject to as much a *Conservative Elite & Intelligensia" as they love use as a labeling tactic against their ideological opponents.
Tell me that patron saint William F. Buckley jr. is a meat n' potatoes conservative that the Republicans love to pretend they represent. Rush Limbuagh-fodder is charitablymore accurate.

Being a die hard independent I watch *both* ideologies at arm's length and watch 'em like a hawk.
Being patriotic I respect what G.Washington warned about the dabgers of "factions" in his farewell speech before Congress which is read out loud before Congress every year and C-Span *always* broadcasts.

Too bad Congress doesn't do the same with Eisenhower's
"military industril complex" warning speech.

Carry on.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 08:43 AM

Doug: I hate to agree with you so I won't. (Had ya' going there for a second, didn't I?) But I'll half agree with ya. No make that a third. The reason that Bush toned things down, I think, had less to do with Powell and more to do with the millions of emails and letters that flooded into Wsahington over a short period of time. Couple that with massave demonstration is the UK, Italy and here in the US with the balking by the allies and Bush had no other choice but to re-arrange his checklist. Yeah, I'm sure that Powell stated his case to Bush and was shouted down by the cheney/Rumsfield Gang but he shouldn't have given in which is exactly what he did. And this is the point that Belafonte was making. One has a value system where some things should not be negoitiable. Sure, folks might change a position on some issues but not one so important as a wrongly fough war in which the US would be the agressor. This was Collin's biggest fight and he "capitulated" to theose with louder voices. He should have told Bush that if Bush was gonna copntinue down a path of unilaterial pre-emption that he would no longer stay in the Master's house and to "Go find anoth "boy", thank you..."

Condi Rice is another story. She is being true to herself in that what you see is what you get. Heck, left to her own devices, she is a clear and present danger to the earth's population. A real unilaterialist in that ol' gal. But no hypocracy there. She's got as much huff-n-puff as either Cheney or Rumsfield. The only difference is that she does it in the Oval Office rather than infront of microphones.

And, lastly, Doug, what does Harry Belefonte have to loose? Who knows whatr the future is going to bring with an administration filled with intolerant folks like John Ashcroft and Tom Ridge? I mean, trhose of us in the other camp feel the chill that only those folks who were called before the McCarthy panel must have felt in the early 50's. People are being arrested for their thoughts and their intent. (Like who is it that looks at a guy and decides what his or her intent is?) The media is scared half out of their minds and goosesteppin' to the Bush Administration. Yeah, if you're over there, Doug, it's real cozy but it ain't so peachy over here. So, yeah, Harry Belefonte, knows what I'm saying here, He feels the vice tightening on the !st Ammendment. He lived during the McCarthy witch hunts, so here is where the courage part comesin to play...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 10:17 AM

I was well aware of Colin Powell's footsieing with Bill Clinton (one seems to gravitate towards physical metaphors with this bunch). Whatever the ins and outs of that, it is supremely likely that Colin decided not to be one more PGA grunt in the Dems, but the Tiger Woods of the Reps since it was what we in ecology refer to as "an empty niche". He gets to wear the blazer in the dining room, as opposed to being merely another waiter.

I have yet to run across any principles that are particularly Republican -- except the famous or infamous Powell war doctrine which Republicans despise -- that have been articulated by Colin Powell. It is of course hard to find any doctrines that are particularly Republican these days except far right wing notions -- Democrats seem to be where the remnants of Rockefeller Republicans went. Certainly it would be hard to find any Democrats these days, as far as I can tell.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

Hi, Doug. You asked what does Belafonte have to lose?

Hmmmm. Well, if he's really got guts, absolutely nothing in all probability...except that he will be harangued by a lot of people who don't agree with him, and will have a lot of his time eaten up in replying to them and defending himself against various accusations.

Now, if he was a politician, he'd have to be much more careful.

I guess as a Canadian I was impressed by what he said simply because it is very rare to see a well-known American public figure saying the things he said, things which tend to remain unacknowledged in the USA. It was unexpected and rather inspiring.

But...that's cos I agree with what he said, of course.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 01:17 PM

Doug, Far be it from me to say that someone shouldn't change his positions. I've often thought it would be especially nice if you would change yours. <VBG>

Or to quote Dan Ackroyd... “Jane, you ignorant slut!...” <g>

Seriously though, I didn't mean to be interpreting Powell's position or commenting on Powell directly. I only meant to describe what I thought Belafonte was saying. My own political views are niether conservative nor liberal—in the way those terms are used today—and are seldom discussed here unless to take exception to some extreme bigotry or an exceptionally egregious political outrage.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Harry Belafonte on L.K. show. Amazing!
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM

Amusing Oct 22 cartoon from Boondocks -- here!


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