BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

Did anyone see the program in which she was challenged about the Belgrano by Diana Gould? I missed it, wanting to miss her, but watched a repeat later, when our family had met Mrs Gould, whom we liked. Our video failed to record it, so I couldn't rewatch to verify what I saw. Mrs Thatcher gave a very good impression of someone in the position of defending a deciasion she couldn't defend - either because it was taken by someone else, or because she had doubts about it. She was definitely uneasy, which was very surprising for her. And yet, as has been shown above, there were statements she could have made, and which she must have met in disputing with Tam Dalyell. It was very odd.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Scotland the brave
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

magaret thatcher, as I said she's just a mad old cow, who should be really locked up for her and our sakes.

And anyone who could admire that old bitch must be a tory in disguise. I just wish that the old bitch would just crawl under a stone and die. Or do like one of heroes Hitler, just put a gun to her head and shoot herself, I mean what she did to Scotland was terrible, and her pals in the Labour party, that helped her by doing nothing. They just sat back and let her run riot here in Scotland, and yet there are still people here in Scotland thinks that she's great. I really can't understand why Scots can vote for the Tories or New Labour or even the Liberals because all they care about is what happens in Westminster and not in Scotland. I don't know how they could make that old bitch (Sorry to old bitches everywhere) a barnoness. To be one you would need to be human and she's not and never will be. I agree that she stuck to her ideas and all that sort of thing, but to ruin Scotland and Wales and also start a war just so that she could remain prime minster is beyond a joke. So one final word I just wish would hurry up and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:35 AM

Just remind me which war(s) Mrs Thatcher started, Tone d'F.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM

I suppose this would not be a good time to post the following extracted from the Freeserve news site.

Tories need to break with Thatcherism, says vice-chairman

A leading Tory says the party must break with Thatcherism.

Vice-chairman Gary Streeter says they need to act in the same way that Tony Blair convinced Labour to ditch Clause Four.

He says Baroness Thatcher was a fantastic Prime Minister but she has only a very small part to play in the future.

Mr Streeter told GMTV: "We are talking about 15 and 20 years ago and it's a very different world in which we live today.

"Society has changed enormously and I think if we are to attract support from a wider group of people, then we have to say, 'that was great then but that's yesterday, we leave that behind and we look forward'.

"I think you will find that Baroness Thatcher has a very small part to play in the future of our party, although she was a giant in the century that we've just enjoyed."

Mr Streeter says the party could benefit from a confrontation between Mr Duncan Smith and hardline Thatcherites.

"If we are to show people we are changing and we have changed, picking a fight with a reactionary group within the party, as Mr Blair did, is not necessarily a bad thing," he said.

Those reactionary forces include racist party members, according to Mr Streeter.

"I think we have to pick a battle with them and say that will not do for the future of this Party because we are now looking forward to a multi-racial, multi-cultural society," he said.

Let us respect thier greif in private.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:24 PM

We brits don't vote people into power, we let the 40% to 60% of people that vote do it.

But not satisfied by that you can win by having the highest percentage of votes something like 51% willput you in power even though 39% of the voters were against you.

Strangely enough I don't think people are sexist about Thatcher, just hateful, resentful, spiteful and rude but not sexist

It looks as though she read Das Kapital and reversed it, selling off the assets quicker than a Yankie carpetbagger.

If the Falklands had not happened she would have been out of office but as with PM's before her, stick a pin in the patriotic nerve and you're ok for another six months

Before entering polotics she was a research scientist who's claim to fame was working out just how much air to put into ice cream to make it soft (Mr Whippy)

She was assertive and domaneering and when she wanted your opinion she would give you it. As for why the Tory's voted her as leader, I can only guess being controlled by her was cheaper than a visit to Ms Whiplash (sorry conservetives but your slease track record sucks)

From what was on offer she was the best of the lot as with Hitler and Mousolini things started out seemingly ok and all three started wars

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:45 PM

since when was Thatcher ever a woman? And that's a direct quote from a feminist of many years that I know, and most of the feminists I know were of the same opinion. The Malvinas conflict was a result of many interests, political and economical, as has already been pointed out, like the straits of Gibralter. The Malvinas Islands are a handy staging ground for the UK's interests in the Antarctic mineral fields. The only reason the British ahave got the arse end of Spain is because the impirialist/economic policies of the era were to control the traffic in and out of the Med. Also, Thatch's government were flagging a bit at the time and they were in serious danger of getting booted out. Then the Pols in the conservative party wouldn't have been able to continue to line their pockets and those of their industrialist cronies through the sale of the public utilities and services.. 79 was the year when the British voters didn't do what they did this year, stay at home to register then non-vote. This was the end of the era of british popular political consciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:17 PM

I'm curious, truly: Just what is/was it that the people who voted her party into power like/liked about her? And what was her political reputation before she achieved the prominence?

I hope no one takes offense if I say that some of the invective on this thread sounds just a bit sexist? I can't fathom a 'Catter speaking of a 'bull' politician, especially in a negative sense. Is it possible that the fact that this was a woman prime minister makes it easier and more 'correct' to hate her?

Eb

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:09 PM

so you don't think that the fact that the Falklands gives the UK legal access to antartica Via Drake Passage and Paradise bay had any bearing on it's value.

mmm... Flaklands lamb only £3,220 per pound (spitting Image)

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:45 PM

Sapper -

My politics are somewhat left of center - but, like you, it infuriates me to hear the mantra, that that ***** set up the Falklands War to gain electorial sympathy.

260 plus UK servicemen may have died to save her face ( and many more Argentinian conscripts) but that particular crime can not be layed to the cow.

Foe what it's worth I suspect that the Falklands war may well have saved the British Labour Party from complete electorial breakdown.

As stories go, this one is worth telling. At the time of the war I was at a routine meeting in East Kent, held in the Miners Institute in Aylesham (nr Dover). Business in the smokey back room had finished and I was enjoying a pint or so before cycling back to Whitstable.

One of our lunatic fringe started sounding off to say that the whole thing was a capitalist war etc. Sure enough the stupid sod was picked up by half a dozen colliers (not Thatcher sympathisers) and projected out of the bar horizontally - to general applause.

Nobody can pretend that that war was to protect democracy in the Falklands, or in Argentina - but I suspect that it was a case of the Government making all the right decisions for all the wrong reasons.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

Sapper, if I believed that LAST bit WAS the case, I'd be sending you a Private Message on here asking if you could knock up a 'certain piece of kit'....& I'd willingly go & position it.

Thats a bit flippant, sorry....& to save upsetting 'Councillor' (who is someone I dont dislike at all, though I despise his political affiliations, & his defence of Thatcher) I think I'll shut up on this subject now!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:12 PM

Mrs Thatcher was elected in 1979 thanks to the unstinting efforts of the trade unions to impose their rule over the elected Labour Government. The country was in absolute rag order at the time. In 1977 I drove Green Goddesses in Wigan as part of the the emergency fire cover for the Firemen's strike. The next year we had a squadron clearing streets because of a bin-mens strike. The winter of '78/79 was was notable for hospital porters picket lines turning back patients because the porters did not think they were ill enough. Also, there were strikes of delivery drivers who then picketed hospitals and schools to prevent heating fuel from getting through. In addition there were further public service strikes resulting in unburied bodies in Liverpool and massive heaps of rubbish in Glasgow. The Wilson/Callaghan government clique had shown themselves to be totally ineffective in dealing with these troubles, as had the Heath government a few years earlier. Mrs. Thatcher was by no means not perfect, but she was MANY times better than the incompetants who preceeded her. Also, to hear some of the invective regarding the Falklands, it would be easy to gain the impression that the whole event was set up with Galtieri simply so she could kick his forces out and get re-elected. Come on, get real!!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:10 PM

Ooops! doesnt that bring up the knotty problem of President Ford then?

*evil, teasing grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

McGrath the reason that your comparison falls down, ( and as they say comparisons are odious ) Is that none of the fanatics you cite stood for election, AND got elected, and more than once. This fact alone no matter how much one agrees with the result gives them legitimacy, or a mandate as they prefer to call it.

Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:53 PM

God -yes.

Let the nuts on the left hang their collective heads in shame the way they helped keep that ***** in power.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM

Agreed, Mr McGrath, with just about all of that

...I feel that there are a number of extreme left-wing individuals who engendered a LOT more than 'one person - one vote' FOR the Tories.....

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

I wasn't actually comparing Thatcher to Bin Laden. In fcat I was contrasting them, as a way of challenging whether that remark of Giok really stands up. If really it is appropriate to "admire in anybody" the "ability to be true to (their) beliefs, right or wrong", the logic of that has to be to admire that in Bin Laden or in Hitler.

Well, maybe it is possible to distinguish between the actual beliefs and the ability to be true to them. That's why I put a question mark in my reply.

As I said earlier, I don't go for seeing Maggie Thatcher as the person to carry the responsibility for everything that happened in her time. People elected her. She didn't come to power through an army coup like Pinochet. If there is blame - and I think there is - it rests on a lot of people, those who voted for her, yes and those who drove them to vote for her. And also those who have consistently refused to reform the voting system so that a fanatical minority could never achieve overwhelming power.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:09 PM

Spaw.

That is a visual image I _really_ didn't need.

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:07 PM

*G* Catspaw...

As for the Falklands, I see it as us 'calling the Argies bluff' really...but then they called OUR bluff by HOLDING, & 'forcing' us to fight...

However, I think a lot of Conflicts can be seen in that way

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM

Hmmm...think I'll leave this particular issue alone....

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

Over here in the Colonies, I never could make much sense of the Falklands thing at all. The US has had enough of those to last the world a lifetime......I mean like after Grenada, where could you go to get any worse? The Reagan and Thatcher years only gave me enjoyment in my imagination. I was always hoping to hear that a security guard had caught Maggie, with a giant dildo strapped on, butt-fucking Reagan in the Oval Office.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:52 PM

a desire to be true to ones beliefs is a good thing and should be recognised as such especially in the context of what jock was trying to say.

Mcgrath Comparing Thatcher to Bin Laden is not really understanding the comment or worse deliberatly mis representing it because of your fanatical hatred.

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:42 PM

Jock I applaud your comments, I can admire people who are dedicated to their political beliefs even if I disagree with them. Having a mutual respect gives people a greater ability to work together particularly in the political field.

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:34 PM

What I admire about Maggie is what I admire in anybody, i.e. her ability to be true to her beliefs, right or wrong.

Bin Laden for example?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:29 PM

It often causes me to be amazed at the amount of hatred that the name Margaret Thatcher engenders. I am not a card carrying member of any political party, but I can't find it in my heart to hate Maggie, or anybody else as much as some of our contributors seem to. What I admire about Maggie is what I admire in anybody, i.e. her ability to be true to her beliefs, right or wrong. She would never do what the New Labour (Conservative in disguise) Party has done, and abandon all her principals and betray her friends in order to curry favour with the electorate. In case anybody's interested, I waste my vote on the Scottish Nationalist Party, and no I don't agree with all of their policies either.

Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:25 PM

I still think she was one of the greatest prime ministers we have had.

Cllr AKA Thatcherite revolutionary

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:22 AM

Cobble - I stand corrected on the building date for "Glamorgan" - The original design of the County Class was designated Light Cruiser, they were reclassified as Destroyers by the Admiralty to get the costs through the Treasury. The same trick was used on the I class aircraft carriers, calling them through deck cruisers.

The point was/is any warship will normally survive and operate within the limits of damage allowed in design.

The Counties were designed to take hits, the type 42's were not designed to do so to the same extent.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:06 AM

In the normal course of events I never ever hate anyone. With Margaret Thatcher I will make an exeption, this person sent British soldiers to their death's to further her political career. Dave, formerly the Zander

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 09:01 AM

As I've always seen it, the danger which was averted by the sinking of the Belgrano was that a peace deal might have been hammered out.

The only people who benefited by the war were the Thatcher government. Without it, it is overwhelmingly likely that the next election would have seen her thrown out. And leaving aside the Belgrano, there wouldn't have been any invasion of the Falklands/Malvinas if cutbacks relating to the islands hadn't given the increasingly precarious Argentine generals a clear invitation to invade, on the assumption that the British government really wanted to get rid of this expensive outpost. I have always had a suspicion that this was really what was intended all along.

Actually it's not quite true that the only people who benefited from the war were Thatcher and co. The people of Argentina did as well, in that it meant they got rid of the generals.

That was the irony of that war - the best outcome for Britain would have been the defeat that was averted, and the best outcome for Argentina was the defeat that was achieved.

That's leaving aside the poor young men on both sides who were butchered. And the three civilian islanders killed by "friendly fire" by the British.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:33 AM

I remember the photo of her walking around the industrial wasteland she and her policies created. "If you require a monument, look around you"

I remember the only IRA bomb the target of which I could even marginally approve of, and my disappointment when the bitch survived.

I remember that, during the Falklands episode, I felt rather lonely in my opposition to the whole thing. I wasn't alone, but few of my friends or colleagues at the time thought as I did.

I remember how I exulted when she was voted out of office.

In my lifetime, she is the only politician for whom I can honestly say I feel something akin to hatred, and I do not hate easily.

History might put her in perspective, catalogue the damage she did, and, to a (fortunately) lesser degree, continues to do. As usual, it depends who gets to write it.

I'm with Elvis Costello on this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Scotland the brave
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:31 AM

She just likes to start wars, and should lock up because she's mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 05:59 AM

Thank-you Paul and Gareth for your detailed information. I am going to have to find out a bit more about this, but I can't fault the way you have backed up your arguments. I am sure you will understand my distrust of practically anything the ministries announced at the time. Still, there is plenty left on the charge sheet against "that woman".

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:24 PM

well. I have made my views on the bitch Thatcher known in previous threads. "Tramp the Dirt Down" by Elvis Costello ( on his Spike album) about sums up what I'm going to do when the old cow finally bites the dust. And to illustrate how she thinks just look at who she's best mates with, does the name Pinochet ring any bells. I always remember the Spitting Image sketches in which she got her political advice from her next door neighbour, an ageing and thoroughly bitter Adolf Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cobble
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM

To put you right Gareth Glamorgan was built in the sixties a county class destroyer of which two are still on the go for a South American Navy. That was my time in the RN. She carried sea slug missiles and at the time had four 4.5 inch guns.

Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:23 PM

Intersting fact - Falklands

HMS "Glamorgan" 1950's built Light Cruiser took an Exocet hit in the Aircraft hanger and remained on station, as an effective unit.

HMS " Sheffield" 1980's build Destroyer received one Exocet hit - and burnt.

I suppose its what you design and build for.

The Type 42's were designed to get a troop convoy from the US of A to Europe, and after that they were expendable - like the "Liberty Ship"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM

Agreed, mate...

Not that I wish to change, or influence anyone's opinions, but if we can provide information that puts things in a different perspective...

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:03 PM

Paul-

thank God there are two of us who think the same way over the "Belgrano"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:55 PM

Alanabit and others.

I yield to no person my detestation of that bloody woman, and all she stood for. I Beg to remind the lunatic fringe on the left how thier destruction of the British Labour Party enshured that that ***** maintained power in the 1980's.

But in the intrests of historical accuracy -

The ANS "General Belgrano" (ex USN "Phoeonix") was a light Cruiser mounting 15 x 6" Guns in manuel turrets.

Escorted by 2 British built type 42 destroyesrs armed with 1 x 4.5" Automated Guns plus 4 Exocet launchers each.

Max speed about 30 knots.

Question What is the turning circle of a light cruiser - 10 ships lengths ?

Remember - it is not what the enemy is doing know but what she can do is the problem. - " Reverse Course Helmsman" In Spanish

The order was given by Admiral Woodward to HMS/S Conqueror was shadow - and if there was any difficulty sink. And no these were not Thatchers Orders, they were the orders of the man on the spot. This was done. Sorry, no submarine could have shaddowed and been imune from detection by SONAR (ASDIC) at speed over the Burnwood bank.

Now the sceptical may wonder what threat a cruiser and two missile carrying Destroyers could have been to the Royal Navy if they had got into range.

I leave that to your imagination - unless of course you categorise the Argentinian Navy as abject " Dago" cowards.

In the early 1970's there was a war between India and Pakistan - it resulted in independance for East Pakistan, now known as Bangladesh.

The Pakistani goverment sent a troop convoy escorted by three Ex USN "Fletcher" Class Destroyers (5 x 5" Guns in single turrets). The convoy was intercepted by the INS "DELHI" (ex RNZNS "Achillies") A training ship, by then carring 4 x 6" Guns in twin turrets.

BTW If you have ever seen the film the "Battle of the River Plate" The Indian Goverment lent the INS "Dehli" to the film company to play herself as the "Achillies"

The result of this Gun line battle ?

Two "Fletcher" Class DDs sunk, One "Fletcher" retired hurt, and the Troop Convoy destroyed. Not bad for a ship built in 1936 - and classified as a training ship.

I take no pleasure in death or destruction. What a pity it is that those who give the orders tend not to be on the recieving end.

But please do not distort history by suggesting that the "Belgrano" was sunk to appease that ****** blood lust.

The job was done for naval reasons, on naval orders.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:39 PM

Mind you, I feel uneasy about talking about here as if she was some kind of baleful evil magician, a political version of Voldemort.

She only had power because a lot of people voted for her party, and kept on voting for her party. Never by any means a majority, but more than voted for any of the others (unlike in the case of George Bush).

I remember Danny Cohn-Bendit in 1968 when asked about how he felt as a leader of the Student Rising in France said "I'm not a leader. I'm a megaphone." I think there was a real sense in which Maggie Thatcher was a megaphone, amplifying the hates and fears and prejudices of millions of people who are still around. A bit scarey to think that.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:38 PM

....& Suzanne, thanks for posting that song....hadnt seen it before.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM

Certainly couldnt agree with you more re: Thatcher... screwing the country up as she did constitutes Treason in my book...

But the Belgrano, though it WAS an old WW2 vintage Cruiser, sold off by the US Navy, was a considerable threat to the Task Force, at sea or against our Troops when they went ashore.

Being that age, it was armoured, of course, something thats FAR too expensive to do in more recent years with Warships... an estimate at the time was that it would have taken, IIRC, 40 Exocet missiles to take it out of action (yes, the British also used Exocet, at the time)The ONLY thing that could have dealt with it was a torpedo...

It was manpower intensive, slow, noisy, & fuel-hungry, but still cheaper to keep in service than purchasing a new Warship (though the Argentine Navy had some new Warships too), & in fact in many ways irreplaceable anyhow, & with its armour, & its 6" (or 8", I cant remember, & too idle to look it up) guns,it was superior in some ways to modern Warships.

It WAS used as a Training Ship prior to the Invasion, yes, but those Cadets were, apparently, replaced by more experienced Crew, because it WAS intended to engage the Task Force, given the opportunity, & could, & would have caused ENORMOUS damage had it done so.

Its been alleged that Conqueror's Torpedo 'Officer' (probably a Petty Officer, actually) - the man that actually pressed the button that fired the Torpedoes that sank Belgrano, vomited over his console..so he wasnt without sentiment for the Ship....cant have been an easy thing to do....

Its a great pity that Thatcher secured her Political position with the deaths of so many - Argentine, British, & Gurkha.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:29 PM

1975. And she hadn't really got started by then.

Subject: LYR ADD: Targets
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:57 PM

A great opportunity to post another Harvey Andrews song:

TARGETS
(Harvey Andrews)

Chorus:
Call us equal, call us proud
Call yourself a liar
No matter what the people do
They'll set the target higher

You read it now, they tell you how the Lady is a leader
With hats and curls and strings of pearls, they say the people need her
She took the milk from my son John, locked it in her larder
Then said, The secret of success is - work a little harder

My girl she nurses sick and old, the builders of the nation
And then they pay a pauper's wage and tell her it's vocation
She'd love to ride the world around, to give the cups and prizes
But someone's got to lead the blind and see the cripple rises

We would have married long ago and we're still hoping one day
Two up two down and a little lawn and time to rest on Sunday
I wish the ones who kept us here could live like us and borrow
I'd place a pound for what it's worth they'd be gone tomorrow
We'd like a yacht, some rooms to spare, horses in the stable
We might as well believe that we could buy meat for the table

From Harvey's album 'Fantasies from a Corner Seat' (1975)

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM

I am sure if we float the question, Paul, that some other Mudcatter will refresh our memories. From what I recall, the Belgrano was a large, but rather old ship which the Argentines purchased after it had become surplus to the US navy's requirements. It was mainly used for training recruits. (That is if my admittedly fallible memory serves me well!) Its wake may have endangered any passing canoeists, but up against practically any Royal Navy vessel which was present at the time - let alone HMS Conqueror, it represented about as much threat to our ships as a canary would to any self respecting cat. I am going to go along with Joe, McGrath and Eric, because I think they are all seeing the world from a similar standpoint to myself. I can appreciate what John Freeman is driving at, but I have to ask myself if he has bought into the newspapers reading of seventies Britain. I was a NUPE shop steward in the seventies when a Labour government full of honest triers - David Ennals, Jim Callaghan, Hattersley and Dennis Healey et al were trying to battle a cash strapped government through a hung Parliament at a time of world recession and OPEC induced inflation. They borrowed money from the IMF and the Shit of Persia. Effectively, the IMF ordered them to operate policies which may well have seemed too severe for the previous government (three day week etc....) Before Thatcher came to power, 84% of the wealth of our country was in the hands of 7% of the population. Margeret Thatcher proclaimed that this was not enough. If you think that her redistribution of wealth was a by product of her policies, just read her speeches - and those of Keith Joseph - before the election. Labour were then in the position of presiding over Conservative economic policies at a time when inflation was effectively cutting living standards of its own supporters still further. As an ancilliary worker in an NHS hospital I was on a basic wage of twenty pounds eighty pence per week. (Sorry - there's no pound sign - I'm using a German computer). Guess why I joined NUPE and took part in limited industrial action. Yes, things were bad in the seventies, but there were certain features of British life which only emerged later on. I do not recall seing large numbers of young beggars on the street. I do not recall race riots. I do not recall seeing abandoned council housing estates at the same time that large numbers of people were homeless. For me John, the only thing Thatcher proved was yes, it was possible to make things worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM

A comedian friend of mine had a great bit way back in the early 80's, when for a brief moment in time Canada had a scape-goat/fall-person, Kim Campbell to bear the brunt of Brian Mulroney and the Conservative Party's impending election decimation. (Mulroney resigned just before the election and Kim Campbell became the temporary prime minister and sacraficial lamb.)

His line was: "I've finally figured out WHO Kim Campbell is. She's the female version of Margaret Thatcher." (I always loved that joke.)

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM

You know. My rose-coloured spectacles. I always called them my Maggie Thatcher glasses (both pairs are prescription lenses). I don't need them now - or do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:06 PM

I don't know. I can't help but feel that we were in a mess, the extreme left had gone too far and someone like Thatcher was probably a good thing for a very short term but then we should have got rid of her.

Somehow fear of what another Labour government might do seemed to over-rule any realisation as to what Thatcher would do. I think it was this same fear that paved the way for Tony Blair to strip labour of some of its traditional values.

As for Thatcher herself, I never liked her and I love mooman's "well past her sell by date..."

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM

The thing about Thatcher is that after her pretty well every other politician looks quite human. That's the best thing about her - and it's the worst thing as well..

I have a feeling that she's blown it now though. My big worry was that Blair would see her as some kind of a role model for making war, in the way he has in other ways at times. I don't think he will now. Gladstone is the man, it seems.

I think democratic socialism might start sneaking back in now, Joe. De-regulation of everything fuelled by big business is looking a bit sick right now. And the heroes of the hour are the very people who've been victims of cuts in funds for public services - firefighters and people like that. Tax and spend start sound quite a sensible idea now. "No such thing as society" sounds even more stupid than it did before.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

I say chaps,What I really meant to say was. I don't really like her or her brand of politics. (Of course if I had gone to Eton and Winchester I would think she is STILL A C..T and F.....G bitch)

Terrrrribly sorry, but there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:03 PM

Silly old cow will be expressing dismay that the relatives of the innocent passengers on the ill-fated aircraft haven't apologised, next... or the aircraft manufacturers... or airline pilots...

Never open your mouth until your brain is in gear!!

Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Thatcher, Thatcher the milk snatcher
Taking the milk from childrens mouths
I remember the demo's well Richard-went on about 6.

Margret Thatcher, her money, her brand of politics, her philospohy of greed and self centredness and all her cronies should be given to the people who she most shat upon for them to do unto her. The poll tax, the removal and destruction of society, the dismantling of the welfare state has left us in Britain with a legacy of want and need. profits not people, money not minds and bodies. We haven't even begun to rebuild a tiny amount of what she killed off.

I hope she rots-better still I would love to have her live long enough to see a new Britain, where freedom,equality and tolerance become the norm. Where the rich have their greedy gains removed and the population have equality of opportuninty and the help they need to have a fairer life.

personally I wouldn't even waste my shit on her or her cronies!