BS: Was Thatcher right?

Subject: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:57 AM

Margaret Thatcher when UK prime minister famously said..."There's no such thing as society". Events last week seem to bear this out.

A young man was stabbed to death on a London bus one week ago, after asking another youth to stop throwing potatoe chips.

Although the bus was crowded with passengers, only one woman went to the assistance of the dying man.

She later said,"as the young man lay bleeding,I asked the others for help to call police or assist with first aid. Most of them just averted their eyes, nobody rose from their seats to help. It was unbelievable".

Later, only 6 people would help police with details.

Is this what it has come to?..Has Thatchers rotten selfish ideology killed any any real compassion in us.

Thachers credo is now being implimented by her protege Blair.

Where is the wonderful "way of life" that we are spending millions to protect. Its time to ask serious questions of the politicians who seem oblivious to the results of their policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM

You could be right ake, but earlier evemts in London shows the human spirit in good order.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:23 AM

Ok Eric...But not so long ago the bombers were also members of our society. What happened to turn them against us?

There are extremists in all religions, but we had no real problems with Islamic extremism until we followed Blair on his crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:27 AM

Again you could be right, this man is NOT a labour politician.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:46 AM

She was about as far to the right as one could get.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: mooman
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:07 AM

No she was not right.

What was the question?

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:09 AM

Just a thought, she possibly saved many miners lives by closing so many pits, with her psychpathic paranoid hatred of trade unions in general and miners in particular.    She would be devastated to learn this,   I think I'll let her know.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:25 AM

Was [Mrs] Thatcher right?" In general, I think she was.

As to the now notorious quote (talking to Women's Own magazine, October 31 1987), it's not so bad in context: "I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

What she's saying is that the bills of the feckless who cast themselves on "society" are, in fact, paid by individuals like you, me and their families.

Seems utterly reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Piers
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:36 AM

Eric, she just transferred miners deaths elsewhere. South Africa now is the biggest exporter of coal to the UK:

"Safety standards and technology lag far behind those in Australia, the United States, Britain and Canada. As evidence, the union points to statistics that show South African mines are many times more dangerous than those in other countries. For example, the fatality rate in South Africa's coal mines in 1992 was 0.64 per 1000 workers compared to 0.43 in NSW, 0.36 in the US, and 0.08 in the UK."

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1994/155/155p14.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:51 AM

Ringer, society is judged by how it treats it's poorest members, Thatcher promoted greed and avarice as being virtues.

I hope she dies a slow painful death.

Ewan MacColl hated her with a vengance, I think I'm second.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:13 AM

Thatcher and her little boy Bliar certainly looked after themselves. The government that wrecked Britain's industrial base, made millions unemployed, replaced well- paid jobs in which people could take pride with McJobs on short term contracts... then called them feckless.

Feck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:22 PM

Of course there's no such thing as society until it needs protecting, then the feckless get asked to put on the uniform and go and die for their country

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Shakey
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM

A sound bite and one example. An impressive basis for a debate, I'm sure TB is arranging a crisis meeting at this very moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

Earlier this week an off duty Israeli soldier boarded a bus in an Arab area, produced a gun and killed six Arabs, including two young girls.

The remaining passengers overpowered the soldier, the bus was surrounded and the man beaten to death on the spot.
Rough justice, but at least they cared what happened to their brothers and sisters.

Which society is better?...If we as a nation really cared for others, Blair would be impeached and possibly jailed for the consequeces of his action in Iraq, and the thousands of innocent civilians killed in our name.

The legacy of Thatcher and Blair, is a nation who care more for the antics of the freaks on Big Brother than for the crimes committed by us and to us in real life...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:38 PM

I know what you are saying akenaton. Does community spirit and common decency belong to another age? I am appalled at what happened in that bus, but I am not going to let myself believe that it is the only face of my compatriots nowadays. Only four weeks ago, the driver of a bus, on which a bomb had already exploded, had to be restrained forcibly from trying to search the wreckage for survivors. The emergency services feared that a second bomb might explode.
A few years ago, while waiting for a ferry from Dover back to the continent, I witnessed an incident. Ina and I heard shouting and screaming from the other side of the road. I did not see everything, but I ran towards the screaming woman, who was being beaten and kicked by a man. It was only about fifty yards away, but by the time I had crossed the road and got there, three other men were on the scene. One man had nabbed the assailant. The second man was attempting to thump the bully, but he in turn was being restrained by the third man. Law and order only works if everyone supports it. That is what happened that day, when an attempted child snatch was foiled. Ina was impressed and it was one of the occasions on which I genuinely felt proud to be British. Sometimes the right thing does happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:44 PM

NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: sapper82
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM

If anyone with an open mind (few and far between in some quarters) would like to read the full text of the interview where she made that oft misquoted comment, it is here:- "There is no such thing as Society"
As to the question, was she right?
In the context of that article, most certainly. Society, if it is to work at all, must be built on the efforts of individual men and women who are prepared to accept personal responsibility for themselves and their families, together with the responsibility of giving assistance to those in need.
It has been the trend over the past 60 years to distance the need for personal responsibility from individual actions that has led to the problems we have in our Society today.
In addition to the above, the "me first" attitude of greed predated Mrs Thatcher by more than a few years and amongst the first with their noses in the trough were the Unions.
How many times during the '60s did the T&GWU, the GM&BMU, ASLEF, the NUR, the EEPTU stand up and swear complete backing to the Nurses for a pittance of a pay rise, then in the next breath demand pay rises several times higher?
How many times did "Solomon Binding" help broker agreements between Unions, Wilson's Government and employers, only for the Unions to tear them to shreads?
Thank God those days are long gone!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:03 PM

I'm not talking about that. I was just referring to Maggie in a general sense... ;-)

I'm sure she was right about the odd thing now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:21 PM

I'm no supporter of the trade unions who were in my opinion just another tool in the Capitalist box, but they were one of the major factors in influencing the Wilson govt not to join America in the obcenity of Vietnam.

Blair didn't have to involve us in Iraq, he did it for political expediancy and because he knew he wouldn't have to pay for it , but the British people will.

Personally I see a vast difference in society since my youth,the more prosperous we become ,the more insular we become.
We have everything we need to live in our own little castles ,we need no one, and one of the casualties is the music and culture we love which will soon be submerged in the karaoke, pop idol swamp.

The young, with the exception of the highly politiciced young Muslims, are either money mad users or apathetic defeated drug users.
What happened to the idealism that made our young lives worthwhile?

Usurped by Blair and his like, who hype and lie and spin, till they've wrung the spirit from us all....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:54 PM

And where did the beautiful people
Put all their beautiful things?
The love that we carried on banners of smiles
And the songs that we all used to sing?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:26 PM

WE did of course have a Civil war in 1984/5

On one side was the NUM through Arthur Scargill who was trying to defend mining industry and jobs.

It was a terrible time with Thatcher crying Rule of Law and down with Union power [which she accomplished] at the cost of revenue from North Sea Oil ~ she was a very clever strategist having seen the fall of the late Edward Heath due to union activities


We now have a society virtually devoid of heavy industry little mining, a society dependent upon Tourism and Banking

Former mining communities like Grimethorpe and no doubt others virtually empty and derelict

The reality of mining was miners in poor health, dust ~ emphesemia
no jobs for MEN who worked and got paid well for the physical efforts

What are the mining lads encouraged to do now learn IT!!

Where are the physical jobs now please?

Trades men are needed to ensure our utilities are maintained and needs physical effort, yes

The Spirit engendered during the miners strike from all sectors of the UK took us back to the War austerity times, with soup kitchens and hand outs

That's was Thatcher's legacy a divided Nation

Yes Scargill made mistakes he was prophet of doom

Both were wrong, both stubborn the maxim jaw jaw was needed ~ but Thatcher was the dictator the Class thing mattered and who was Scargill anyway.

Thatcher was convinced that she was the Prime Minister and had RULE of Law on her side, yes but through physical strength of her paid police/army (I wonder what percentage of the electorate had actually voted for her ~ bearing in mind that voting isnt mandatory in this country?) Scargill should have gone to his members ~ so should Thatcher!

Yes ex miners lives are much safer now free from the dust, such harsh after math leaving villages crippled, communities split up and men on the dole [yes i know a lot got redundancy pay and good too] but a man needs work to do and says nothing of the pay off in terms of sold out jobs for miners sons (do this IT course young man!!)

Prime Ministers now need a fair and reasonable hand in our society, class must no longer be seen as an issue, we all have fair and reasonable opinions to which due regard is needed and we have much more information than we ever did.

PMs actions are seen with great clarity and scrutinised on TV and in Parliamentary televised committees and debates

We can at least see and hear explanations and make up our own minds regarding decisions made, PMs are called to account for their actions and have difficulty hiding as Thatcher did from proper discourse and divisive action which caused undue hardship which still continues as with any war

Openness and accountability is the new watch word

I am now non political having been disillusioned by the SDP Liberal merger many years ago

i dont like any of 'em now nor the society in which now live
Ray Padgett; Barnsley, South Yorkshire

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: The Curator
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM

She was another Winston Churchill, he was prepared to use the army against miners in the 30's. Society splintered via Thatcher's years. Money made money and poverty bore hate.Money has no friends,those years saw a greater class devide since the middle ages.She held a viewpoint of how it was and nothing was up for disscusion. Frankly I hate the woman due to other reasons. I did note a coming together of society briefly after she left and stopped holding John Major by the shoulders.A society grows from a nation. A nation is formed by it's people. Sadly for the British, Blair is too busy pleasing Mr. Bush to focus on it's people and the backlash such a friendship has created.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Ray Padgett...Remember how the establishment and the media banded together to demonise Scargill, and they've the cheek to boast of "our democracy".

I had an uncle who was a miner in the Fife coal field just after the war. He said it was hard and dirty work ,but the miners had real community .

Thatcher destroyed that by making every worker a capitalist.
Chain them down with morgage payments, all the consumerism they can stomach, thats the only game in town.

Thanks for the post Ray!!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Shakey
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:03 PM

Thatcher was pretty evil but she was in the right place at the right time. The country wanted change, you don't get far in this country if you don't have the people with you, it's far too easy just to blame her. The unions were corrupt and, by the way, it wasn't her that defeated the miners, it was the miners themselves in the UDM.

To try and show that the UK is morally bankrupt using the one example on the bus is risible. There are plenty of good things happening but ake is never going to see that with his blinding hatred for Blair colouring every post his makes.

Blair has won three elections and is as popular as ever, face it ake, the loony left (capitalist toolbox?) lost; the election, the argument and the plot.

Blair's performance will pass the test of time, I doubt if ake's will pass the current test match.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:31 AM

I'm with ake, history will judge Bliar like it has Thatcher, he'll be reviled.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:23 AM

"Blair's performance will pass the test of time, I doubt if ake's will pass the current test match."

Did this drift into ake's performance?

I thought we were talkin' about Thatcher???

Blair? He'll go down as another American flunky. Well spoken and with a great deal of aplomb.

But aren't we talkin' about Thatcher???

She'll be remembered as the battleaxe.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:16 AM

One example ???    There are dozens of examples cited on this forum of the moral bankrupcy of British society at this time.

But the most dambing is the example set by our leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:17 AM

She was a woman of incredible courage who was prepared to stand up for her beliefs no matter what, she deserves our admiration for that at least. Shame her beliefs were such a crock of shit, she deserves Hell for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:51 AM

Nah, if she goes to hell it'll be empty within five minutes.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 08:16 AM

Never! I agree with all erics sentiments about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:04 AM

Hi Johnny good to hear from you again!

I think I agree with you about Thatcher, unlike Blair she certainly wasn't a hypocrite.
She actually believed in what she was doing, and knew it would work for those she represented.

I never meant this to turn into a Thatcher bashing thread, I was more interested in debating the political reasons behind the changes in our national perception, that allows our prime minester and the majority of his cabinet to carry out such repressive policies at home and abroad and still remain, as Shakibus says, electible.

Blair and New Labour are short term, motivated by the need to stay in office above all else, and I believe this culture of deceit has affected most of the UK population.
Who these days regards any politician with any degree of respect?
Its now accepted that lies and distortion are part of the job.

Time we realised that winning elections means nothing if what we get at the end of the process is worthless...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Piers
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM

So what's the plan Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:04 AM

you lot are thick. Somewhere up the page, you criticize Thatcher for "asking the feckless to put on the uniform and go and die for their country."

All of the squaddies i know who were about at the time respected Thatcher for having balls, the Falklands, no compromise with the IRA etc.

You dont like in the proper world. Your probably all teachers and dreamers. If you go to Iraq, you will see that the majority of people out there are thankfull to us, and want to see Iraq on its feet.

You sad lot and Kerry still want to see American forces pull out of there, nice one.

The union strikes and that were a waste of time. Trade Unions have killed british industry. Thats why companies move work abroad where workers are more willing to work without screaming about "our rights, and pay rise."


thats all for now

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM

Last guest = anonymous wanker.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:46 AM

I was no fan of Thatcher, but as Ringer said the full quotation was about who pays for things or solves problems and gives a very different flavour to the usual soundbite: And, you know, there is no such thing as society [to pick up the costs]. There are individual men and women, and there are families.

Of course, exactly the same could be said for other groups of people: nations, for example. I don't remember her ever suggesting Britan didn't exist, only its individual men and women and families.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

Hey, folks, live under G. Bush for a while and Thatcher looks pretty darn good!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:55 AM

Has anyone ever seen G W Bush and Alfred E Newman in the same room ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:17 PM

Eric..I'm with you in spirit, but the anonymous wanker has made the argument that the right always make,and its correct from their point of view.

Its also the argument that gave Thatcher popularity with the centre.
Pragmatism...... they see the world as it is not as we would like it to be, but only in an economic sense and the strategy is always short term. Humanity is seen as a collection of individuals ,there to exploit or be exploited. The notion of a common bond between peoples, is anathma to them. They are safe and secure in the knowledge that power is in their hands through our amazing economic system and they know might will always prevail.

But as Blair says, the rules of the game are changing, though not in the way he thinks. The worm has at last turned, in the shape of fundamentalism, and the strong are no longer safe.

This is what worries the right, the weak for once have the means to bring the fortresses of power tumbling not by four bombs planted by four crazy young men, but by attacking the economy and public confidence.   There is no defense, the agressive posture of Blair and Bush is simply panic and will make matters much worse.

Only by disengaging from the Middle East completely and stopping the manipulation of other countries for our interests can we expect a period of peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: sapper82
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

Wanker = Anyone who disagrees with Eric?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:24 PM

Sapper the Guest above has posted a number of times his opinion re Iraq War and is inciting hatred against all and sundry, he is a nasty piece of work who wont put his name to his opinions

He changes his stance at will

All out war against the IRA? you have got to be joking that's how to perpetuate conflict!

Trade Unions have not killed off British industry

Many factors have contributed to the demise of the industrial base.

We do not expect workers to work under slave terms in this country and uk governments have passed laws to protect workers rights

Such laws would not have been passed under the uncaring, out of touch Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Halyburton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 01:46 AM

Threads like this seem to draw the Thatcher and tory and capitalist apologists out, like sapper82 and the rest.

Incidently I was a trade unionist most of my working life, the last ten years as an activist and an official, but fighting for other peoples rights and defending the less well able against a management who just regarded people as resources, has gained me personally nothing but unemployment and unemployability.

I'm not bitter about trade unions but Thatcher and her monetarist cronies can all burn in hell for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:52 AM

Perhaps it would be a good idea to return to the mediaeval practice of the King riding to war at the head of his army, and we might see a lot less agression.

IMHO, of the three under discussion, the only one that would have done so was Thatcher. She was the one with the balls to have gone ashore with the troops in the Falklands.

Does anyone imagine that Bush or Blair would have started the invasion of Iraq, if they had to lead from the front? Dream on.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:19 AM

She would not have dared to have led from the front against the miners!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:20 AM

Nor the miners' wives!!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:08 AM

She paid that twat McGregor millions to close all the pits, then the cheeky bastard had the nerve to apply for a concessionary pensioners ticket for Grantown On Spey Angling Club.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:34 PM

Thatcher was of course wrong on most things.

1.    There is such a thing as society - the collective will - and it is one of the functions of "society", through the political and fiscal system, to provide for those less privileged, and to arrange to fund such provision by those proprotionatley able to fund it. Otherwise all you have is the law of the jungle (or of the Hell Fire Club viz "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law").

2.    Although she did not need to declare war to use military force within the boundaries of the Falklands against an invader, it was unlawful (without first declaring war) to use such force outside those boundaries.

Scargill was right about most things - where he failed was that he allowed his enemy to choose the timing and terms of battle.   The union/capitalism problem of the Wilson and Heath years lay in the fact that both leaders of capital had the power to extract money from enterprise to the detriment of labour and the leaders of labour had the power to coerce the leaders of capital to provide for labour. What was of course necessary was to curb the power of management to pay excessive salaries to management and excessive dividends to shareholders (and excessive interst to loan funders eg banks). In stead Thatcher stage managed a conflict with Scargill at a time when coal stocks had never been higher (and she had arranged for them to be stockpiled). From this power base, with the aid of legislation intended to emasculate unions, and without putting any restrictions on teh power of capital and management, she sought to reduce the working man (and indeed workers by brain as well as hand) to reliance on capital.

This, as will be seen, is adverse to the benefit of soceity.

The woman was the enemy of the people and of civilisation. I wish her much suffering. I wish her as much suffering as she caused others.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 11:24 PM

A milder but no less evil version of all the little runts who have throughout history cause misery and suffering to the world so that they could be famous for a while, so that they could be feared for a while, so that they could wallow in the increased pain and suffering of the old, of the weak, of the poor and of the rest of us.

Notice none of them, Napoleon - Hitler - Stalin - Thatcher - ( and today Cheney, Rumsfeldt & Bush, or the three Uhh-monkies )were more than a couple of inches over 5 feet tall. Talk about a chip on yer shoulder gone awry!

Also notice that the world would have survived without em just as well and better than with!

So for example, Thatcher could have done much to help and nourish native British Industries, instead she and her Paki chums were busy on the 'short sell' scam whenever and wherever they could get it on!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:43 PM

There was an interesting documentary on the economy shown in the States recently, "Commanding Heights". It compared economic philosophies and it seemed to cast Ms. Thatcher in a good light, but I'm not sure if that's what is meant by the initiating question of "Was She Right?"

Trade Unions or Trades Unions are a good thing when they protect workers' rights and a bad thing when they institute featherbedding and luddite policies and result in less open competition.

Governments are a good thing when they provide health and environmental standards and good order, and a bad thing when they stifle free expression and the aspirations of private enterprise, and protect the entrenched power and wealth of the powerful and wealthy out of proportion to the protection of anyone else.

Society is a good thing when it promotes standards of taste, decency, and humanitarian behavior, and a bad thing when it promotes class interests, crass interests, and any single religion.

So, not knowing how Thatcher stacks up, I dunno if I can answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:42 PM

Robomatic...The question "was Thatcher right?", referred to her assertion that "there is no such thing as society"

I am haunted by the words of the lady on the bus, who asked for assistance to help the dying youth.

"Most of them just averted their eyes" she said.
We all think this was cowardly and disgraceful conduct, but
I see an analogy with public perception of politics in the UK.

It seems that our government can do as it wishes without censure.
I'm sorry to keep harping on about Iraq, but it really has been a blunder of gigantic proportions, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents, many of them children. It has made the lives of ordinary Iraqis worse than when under the Saddam regime. The much vaunted democratic elections have proved to be a sham, and a vehicle to deliver an Islamic republic.

Women are actually going to have fewer rights than when under Saddam , whos regime was secular.
There is also the matter of American and British young men being slaughtered daily to no good purpose.

In short the whole enterprise has been a disaster, and instead of calling to account the man personally responsible for our envolvment.....Mr Blair, the British public "avert their eyes" and elect him for a third term.

When his actions bring suicide bombers onto the London streets....as we warned it would , the British public "avert their eyes" and say it would have happened anyway.

The culture of individualism that Thatcher promoted and which has been continued and "improved" by Blair,means that we are unable or unwilling to take collective responsibility for even the vilest of crimes committed by our leaders....Ake