for all who wish for war

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:08 PM

Well David... If history is any test, if you land only one hundred rangers, in that place, likely if they stayed for long enough, none would come home. On the other hand, history shows that one hundred Quakers have a chance of staying talking and leaving, not that there have not been Quaker martyrs, there have, but it is a fact recognised by a number of religious historians that we happy few have had an effect much greater than our few numbers whould otherwise be expected to be able show. Not to sound like a Californian, the power of love is always, always greater than the power of hate. You can only kill a Nazi, with love you can turn a Nazi into an angle. It happens, a Rabbi who was being daily threatened by the head of his local KKK, here in the states, each time would say, why do you hate me so much when I love you. It must be so painful to carry such hate. Not only did the fellow leave the Klan, he converted, became Jewish. Never underestimate the power of real love, not just placating an enamy but really loving that enamy. There is no power on earth greater. And in the end, it is so very painful to carry hate in your heart. You don't forgive someone for their benifit, you forgive them for the good of your won heart, until you have forgiven the unforgivable you can't understand. I have. I forgave two lawyers who destroyed my reputation and ended my career for greed and malice. I forgave them and MY pain ended. It changed them as well, I think. One has since died, but I think before she did, the love I showed her, I think was transformative. We have to put off our pain and hope that those who hate us can put their pain off, and we must help them to put that pain off, if we don't we need a bigger lock on our door, it is as simple as that.
Cheers, Dave,
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM

ddw - Good comments as usual. I appreciate the thought you put into your responses.

Regarding the Eastern concept of the One...the vast majority of those traditions involve at some level a denial of worldly existence, and a desire to escape from it. In that respect they err...or they avoid responsibility. That's not what I'm suggesting. I am suggesting fully realizing the One in an effective practical way, here and now, in physical reality, not escaping into Samadhi or some form of Nirvana.

To apply the teachings I am studying in the world would involve treating all people everywhere in an equal fashion, which hasn't actually been tried yet by most people, although some progress has been made toward that ideal in democratic societies...it's just got a long way to go yet.

And there is a definite plan and series of steps for getting there, but most people are far too lazy and undisciplined to bother going through even the preliminaries, if they even know about them. I know about them, and I've proven too lazy and undisciplined so far myself. I'm about 2% of the way down the path to Self-realization at this point, I figure. I've met one individual who I know has made it there, and I've never met anyone else like him in my whole life. That shows me it can be done.

It's like the diametrical opposite of "ignoring the bus"...it's more like being totally tuned into everything that's going on, and acting in the most effective and harmonious way possible under every circumstance...with absolute love, confidence, and effectiveness.

If you're looking for airy-fairy world-denial type of stuff to criticize...well, it's out there all right, but that's not what I was talking about.

If I thought I could deny the hardships of the tangible world and get away with it, I probably would go for it at this point, but I know it just ain't that easy.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:51 PM

kendall,

What's your solution? Turn the other cheek? Would that be the crowd at the world series cheek, or the GM headquarters in Detroit cheek?

Acquiesce to the Taliban/al-Qaida/Islamic Jihad/etc.? I'll bet your wife/daughters/sisters would be really happy to don the veils and never go out, but I don't think mine would. And, if bin Laden is to be believed, only death will exponge the insult to Allah of having infidels on sacred Islamic soil.

War may be a failure of niceties and it is never THE solution, but it can certainly be A solution for a particular problem at a particular time. When someone has told you that the only solution to his problem is to kill you and he's demonstrated his willingness and ability to do it, I don't think that leaves much room for options.

But if you really doubt my way will work, let's run a test. You and Larry and Amos and LH round up 100 Quakers (or anybody else who wants to TALK bin Laden out of his madness) and I'll take 100 special forces troops. We'll land them all in Afghanistan, and see who does more to end the threat.....

BTW — somebody above (Amos, I think) made the argument that just because history is laced with wars doesn't mean it's natural. Are you seriously arguing that peace (which, as far as I can tell, is not a whole lot more common than war) is?

If we define "natural" as what will happen in the absence of humanly-imposed laws, institutions, etc., I think the evidence will point to war being just as natrual as peace. The question isn't whether it's natural, it whether it's desireable.

There are times for both.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:41 PM

Hi David: I am rather found of Chompsky myself. Let me point to a potential flaw in your other wise excellent reasoning (and I mean that in all serriousness, you pose an excellent analisis). The flaw is this, if it were the simple equation you pose than the crime rate would be somewhat constant tied only to the number of people in any society, however crime is affected by a large number of varriables, most tied to alianation and other modes of limits on equality. So, if crime and alianisation is not simply a numeric constant and can be affected by giving a sence of fairness (and sence of fairness is more important than actual fairness as one sees in immagrant populations...) than we can do more by creating some sence of equality than we can through the inflicting of death and terror. So, I think...
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM

Doug, my friend..."The only answer is war"??

NO NO a thousand times no. War has NEVER been the answer! War is the ultimate failure! Whether you agree or not, our chickens are coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM

Geez, guest! It's so seldom anybody agrees with me, I'd love to know who you are. If it's politically inexpedient, fire a PM.

david

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:55 PM

david, you are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stangnant mindless barrage of twaddle. Live long and prosper.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:42 PM

Larry, Amos, LH, et al....

Sorry I can't stay in this debate in a more timely fashion, but I'm only online at work and have to do a catch as catch can. I also have limited reading time, so forgive me if I cover ground that's been covered before and I just missed.

As I said earlier, would that you were right. But I just can't see it.

First, I think the only absolute baseline of human nature is that we're social animals — we can't even survive infancy without some form of society, even if it's just core family.

Now, if we live in a society, we have to assume there will be different personalities involved. Some will want to lead, some will want to follow, some want to be left alone. Some will work hard for the common good, others for their own good and some won't work at all — preferring to use superior physical prowess to take the necessities from weaker members.

So somebody says, "Hey, we need laws to keep this from happening." So they make laws saying you can't take somebody else's lunch, because if you do society will take two lunches from you.

There will always be somebody who thinks the rules don't apply to him because he's too smart or too strong for anybody to stop. He'll go right on, until something more drastic than taking his lunches is required.

You can try convincing him that he would be happier if he'd stop the thefts/robberies and play by the rules; you can even offer to educate him and give him better housing and all kinds of other things.

But there will always be at least one who won't conform.

So you can lock him up, you can throw him out of the group, or you can kill him.

If you lock him up, it had better be for a long time — maybe the rest of his life — because he'll be absolutely convinced that you're just persecuting him and he'll need to get even when he gets out.

If you throw him out of the group, you have to set up some kind of perimeter defence, because he'll just come back to raid your fridges if you don't. And if he acquires a gun, you're really in deep shit. You either arm yourself, or you're at his mercy.

Now you could kill him and the whole problem would go away — for a while.

But there would always be someone who would want to take his place, who would be convinced he failed because he was too weak or too stupid or not ruthless enough.

You've got the same list of possibilities, only now you're dealing with an even nastier adversary.

You can reason with these people all you like, but I think in the long run the better solution is to kill them, one by one as they arise, until they all get the idea that operating outside the society is not going to be profitable or good for their health and longevity.

I don't advocate shoving my lifestyle or god or political system or whatever down anyone's throat, but I see no reason to sit idly by and let someone else shove his down mine. I'll resist, with whatever force is necessary.

LH,

I'm familiar with the eastern concept of the Great One and the spiritual planes to achieve it. It seems to me to offer no plan for getting there, only a penchant for defining problems out of existance — sort of "if I don't recognize it's a problem, then it will cease to be a problem."

Seems to me pretty fundamentally flawed, if we're talking about tangible existance. I can ignore the bus, but it'll still knock me on my ass.

As for the "duality" of love and hate — you missed my point. I don't think it's a duality, it's two sides of the same thing — absolutely inseparable by definition. You can't have love without hate and vice versa.

Just curious, have you read Noam Chomski or any of the other general semanticists? Always made a lot more sense to me than Atristotilean logic.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 06:49 PM

I'm jumping in a little bit late here, and I haven't had a chance to read some of the posts here yet. But this is something I feel I want to say now.

I would also have to add that the 5 to 6 thousand people who got wiped from life last month were mostly just trying to do what good they could, build some sort of future, and get along and get ahead -- in short, to pursue happiness. Their right to do so got violently curtailed by an act of war.

I would also have to add that the (thousands? millions?) of people whose cultures were disrupted and sometimes destroyed, many of whom died from despair as a result, were mostly just trying to do what they could to maintain they're accustomed lifestyle and continue their way of life, -- in short, to pursue happiness. Their right to do so got violently curtailed by acts of capitalism.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM

Hi Folks... had to take a wee break for a REALLY GOOD rehersal... reorganising Sorcha Dorcha (booying goes the plug o matic.. ) and while I was away, I see lots of good thoughtfulness still going on! I notice that one post happened while I was posting another, so I missed it. It concerned me blaming the US for WWII. Well, in some way most of the large industrial nations were to a great deal involved in setting the historical environment which led to that war. Even the most conservative hsitorian will admit that the early part of that century saw American agression in the Pasific leading to Japanese counter agression in the middle of the century. Where Wilson desperately wanted to create political systems to cure the jugernaut aspect of world wars, France insisted on punishing Germany, which gave rise to the support for Nazism, in much the same way as middle eastern politics of everything or nothing empower Bin Ladin. So, did the US plan to have Japan invade China, or bomb Hawaii? Did the US plan to empower Germany to build death camps? Of course not, but had the rest of the world demanded humanity as the core of our governmental policies, my cousins, many of your fathers, uncles aunts mothers, would not have died wretched horrible deaths.
Let's start being the brave generation which tries something new, meeting hate and horror and inhumanity with love and peace and understanding. Lets try it once, the other way hasn't worked yet. All our religions demand it of us, but we never seem to try it...
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

This thread is complex. A lot of talk about bin Laden but not about the brains of the outfit, Zawahiri.

We are not approaching the situation in a new way. We are resorting to old tactics. Bombing Afghanistan may appease the anger of some.

Here's what I think needs to be done. We need an International Police Force hopefully through the UN. We need to apply the rule of international law to this situation and try the guilty parties at the Hague.

How do we protect ourselves in the meantime? Strenghten the resolve of other countries to join us in routing the criminals. The Muslim community must speak out more firmly on this issue and denounce the radicalized fundamentalists and not let the issue of Israel stop them.

We need to look at who we support as allies. Wahhabism is rampant in one of our chief allies, Saudi Arabia and the seeds for this radicalization is planted there and financed by rich sheiks.

We need to stop our dependence on oil. Alternative energy sources should be a high priority for our government.

War is not inherent in our social makeup. We resort to it out of impotence and not because it really accomplishes very much. We are embarking on a road toward WW III. Is this why we fought WW II?

One of the big problems is anger. Hot-headedness keeps our country from seeing alternative solutions. They are there but we're so used to thinking in a box. War is seen as the easiest solution. But is it really the most effective?

There is no reality in the theory that war is inherent in the human social condition. Was slavery inherent? Hasn't most of the world to some extent evolved from that recourse?

No, we are a social species because war is not inherent in our makeup. This is why we have survived, because there is the kind of intelligence out there that knows that war doesn't ultimately work for survival. Societies that practice it for any length of time do not survive.

A measured response is what's needed, not simplistic low-context, hot headed responses espousing "patriotism" and simple-minded "good guys and bad guys". The story of the Samurai warrior who will not brandish his weapon unless he is free from anger has some relevance here.

A high-context attitude in which all parts of the puzzle are considered, such as our involvement in what has happened to us and how we can keep it from happening again is in order. Inasmuch as Bush seeks the world community for support, this is good, but as we act unilaterally, we are not being responsible.

How do you neutralize the negative force of those who would destroy us? First, by not becoming like them.

Second, to appeal to the highest principles of people rather than the lowest "let's nuke 'em" attitude.

Third, to listen to what's being said and rather than reacting angrilly and out-of-control, give it weight and consideration.

Fourth, forget all of the generalizations that are made in this situation about what action we take. They will not work any more. This is uncharted waters. We need help and consultation from the whole world and it's in their best interest to help us lest the next goal of these fanatics would be the destruction of the Eiffel Tower, the Hermitage, The great wall of China, Tel Aviv, American embassies in every country of the world, the Parliament in London, and even Mecca itself. (Muslims ought to be very worried about this.)

I believe that there is a kind of insanity that doesn't hear voices or hallucinate. It's the kind that believes that the destruction of this world is rewarded in a paradise. A worldwide mental health is in order. Lets not become crazy ourselves.

Frank

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 03:47 PM

Bin Laden's strategy has not yet achieved his policy goals either (and is not bloody likely to). It's an occupational hazard with this sort of thing...

What we need is some more enlightened policy goals, I think.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 03:40 PM

In other words, Greg, the strategy has not yet achieved the policy goals. And therefore you could be implying many things. That the policy was wrong? That the policy goals should be changed? That the strategy was wrong? That the strategy should be changed?

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM

Only one small problem, gang- we have so far not scored one bloody thing whatsoever against Bin Laden and his organization and "international terrorism" in this so-called "war"! We've bombed the shit out of the Taliban, Afghan cities and Afghan civilians, though. That's hardly the same thing.

Greg

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

Whistle Stop - That was my post, not Larry's. As far as what you say, yep, I understand your point which was well-expressed.

Doug - Hey, I'm STILL not sure just what I would do if I were in George Bush's shoes right now. It's a hell of a messy situation, and if I come up with a neat and perfect answer for exactly how to deal with it, I'll let you know, but don't hold your breath waiting...

I think I would be more likely to use covert means of response to terrorists than conventional military action on small countries...and I think I would move heaven and earth to resolve chronic problems between Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians/etc in the meantime...so as to lessen the possibility of further crises.

But, hell, what do I know? Am I fully informed on all the factors involved? No. Are you? No. It's just that your gut tells you to strike back...and mine tells me that further violence probably won't help, because it certainly hasn't in the past.

I think it's a difference in basic emotional temperament, not a difference in moral concepts of right and wrong that is dividing us. (We all agree it's wrong to kill innocent civilians.) Or it's a difference in spiritual concepts on some level of what each of us terms "reality".

We run around like dogs chasing their own tails when we have these discussions, because we're really not focusing on the same things. The intentions get lost in the words, and the words get misunderstood.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:24 PM

Dan, I agree with your post, and I appreciate the clarity with which you expressed yourself. I believe there are a lot of us on the Mudcat who approve of the current efforts to destroy bin Laden, al Qaeda and the Taliban, even as we recognize that we should question our own role with respect to trouble spots and less fortunate countries around the world, and redouble our efforts to alleviate the world's suffering where it is in our power to do so.

There is an organization allied with a more-or-less established government that has specficially, and repeatedly, pledged to destroy the US, and that has recently shown itself to have the willingness and capability to bring mass death and destruction to the US. They declared war against us, in a most unambiguous fashion, and we are responding as we must. One need does not negate the other -- we need to stop bin Laden and his partners in crime, AND we need to search for better ways to help foster justice and equality in the world. But if we don't do the former, we won't have the opportunity to do the latter.

Larry, in response to your statement ("One observation here: You are either willing to see yourself in another human being...or you are not. If you are not, then you can easily justify killing him, torturing him, executing him, and making war upon him."), I CAN see myself in other human beings, even those like bin Laden and his cohorts who have committed unspeakable acts against my country. I can see myself in the soldiers of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and other countries present and past; I'm not proud of it, but I recognize that we share a common humanity and that, in other circumstances, I might be driven to do what they are doing. And yet, I can easily justify going to war against them, and doing all the horrible things necessary to try to win. I believe that they are wrong and I am right in this struggle, and I believe that their stated intention and demonstrated capability) to kill me and my countrymen is all the justification I need. Going to war does not prevent me from thinking about root causes, and thinking about root causes does not prevent me from going to war. We do what we must, and we try to create a better world once the shooting stops.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

So, L.H., Bin Laden sending his "troops" to kill over five thousand innocent people does not, in your mind, qualify as motivation for the U. S. to declare war! At least the Japanese targeted military targets!

I don't believe that you and many others have yet shifted your thinking from one kind of war to another. As so many others have said, we are engaged in a war much different from the ones we have been involved in before. The terrorist acts should only be answered in one way: war!

DougR

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

And, Dan...that was a great post! I would definitely rather deal with a spoiled North American than with the young Pakistani lad who is willing to become a martyr for his cause by killing himself and a whole bunch of people he's never met.

A higher standard of living in the 3rd world would soon do more to eliminate that kind of ignorant response than would any number of military campaigns. Experience has shown that when people achieve a reasonably secure level of material life, they are far less likely to resort to crime, drug use, and violence, and they are far more likely to practice effective birth control as well...thus easing the whole situation for all concerned.

We could move in that direction by paying workers in the 3rd World what they are really worth, instead of using them as virtual slave labour...but we'd have to give up some of our accustomed luxuries to do it.

I've been giving up some of mine regardless. Times are tougher than they used to be.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM

My, what a discussion! One observation here: You are either willing to see yourself in another human being...or you are not. If you are not, then you can easily justify killing him, torturing him, executing him, and making war upon him.

Osama probably thinks Bush is "a piece of crap" too, while seeing himself as a noble freedom fighter and a dedicated servant of God. That's typical human tunnel vision, the failure to see oneself in the other human being, and it leads to all sorts of tragedy and disaster.

Spot - Going to war against Hitler and Hirohito in 1939-45 was absolutely inevitable. It was a quite different situation in a number of respects from what faces us now. When a large, well-armed major power launches its armies and air forces across borders and sends navies to attack other navies, war is inevitable. What we are dealing with now is a far more diffuse and indefinite situation than that, with far murkier objectives. It is an attack on outward symptoms that is going forward, rather than an attempt to heal the basic illness...kind of like the "War on Drugs", a flawed and misleading campaign if ever there was one, doomed to failure from the start, because it was an attack on symptoms, not on original causes.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:24 PM

Dan, Thanks for w wonderful, thoughtful post. I agree that the young fellow you describe is not moraly justified in doing what he does, but on a practical note, we must find a way to not create an environment which creates such people. I don't think Bin Ladin is pshcyotic, rather I think he and his killers are sociopathic. There is a huge important difference, he does not hear voices in his head likely which can be cured by anti-whatever drugs. Rather he hears crying in the night. In fact, many who follow him don't realize that alot of the crying in the night, is caused by their side as well! But, there we are, we have to do something to aliveate suffering if we wish to be safe, consider it a tax. We tax to take care of the poor, so that they don't get the plague and spread it to us... (well, I am poor so I feel funny writing that last sentence!!!) But, in a practical sense, we share because what goes around comes around, even back in Hillel's day he saw that, "do nothing to another that is aphorant to yourself, that is the Torah and the rest is comentary". If in fact we lived to a small degree that way, spread love as fast as we spread sit-coms and McDonalds, we would sleep safe in our beds.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:19 PM

Larry: I think it's interesting that you, and others who share your POV, when replying to a question such as the one posed by "Spot" regarding WW2, always find a way to blame the United States for the problem. One might think the USofA is the enemy! Is that your position?

Amos posed a question to you earlier that I don't believe you addressed. Could you address it? His question: "What do you think the Administration should do about the current situation? (paraphrasing)

DougR

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM

>>>I am suggesting that we all tend to carry prejudices that we are unaware of. In unstable or more violent personalities that can quickly contribute to becoming a thug, that's for sure...or it can contribute to becoming a "freedom fighter" or whatever else one could call it. <<<

This is a good point and it seems to me is a necessary distinction to prevent discussions from getting heated for no good purpose. Someone anonymously asked above: "Why is it that anyone (myself included) that suggests addressing causes rather than symptoms feel the necessity to make explicit their horror at the slaughter in New York? Can this not be taken as read in view of our common humanity?"

In other words, where is the common humanity, where is the inhumanity and ethically unjustifiable, and where are the cultural differences. (We get into further trouble because the cultural differences may not be ethically justifiable.)

Mr. Anonymous doesn't recognize, because of his basic goodheartedness, that the common humanity has elements which literally approve of the WTC massacre.

I admitted in another thread that if I were born poor in Northern Pakistan, I would likely be a member of that aforementioned category. There is not an inherent, natural evil that would have made me that way. Circumstances would have caused me to go down a wrong moral path.

If I enjoy material excess because it is what I was raised on, despite actual knowledge or through laziness in failing to understand, that some of that material excess is made possible by geopgraphically or socially distant injustices, I have also gone down a wrong moral path.

But it's not ""I'm okay, You're okay." Osama bin Laden is morally more corrupt than I. So are his lieutenants. AND (here's where you and I may disagree): so is the poor Pakistani boy is willing to give his life for a "cause."

That poor misguided youth is willing to give his life for a cause, where I (probably) am not. On it's surface, he may seem to have a claim to moral superiority on that basis. But he does not. His position is morally inferior because he wishes to have me or mine (a) lose their lives, and/or(b) live in fear. I do not wish such deprivations directly upon him. My mental laziness may contribute (in large or very small part) to his material deprivation and discomfort.

The poor misguided youth may not be mentally lazy, but his moral wrongs in celebrating the misery of the relatives and orphans of the six thousand dead are worse than my failings in lazily accepting that my material comforts are due in abstract part to his material discomfort. His ignorance is more extensive than mine, even though I would be equally ignorant if raised in his environment.

In an imperfect world, prioritizing is required. The arguments we have here between those that ask us to see the more abstract portions of our ignorance are in large part engendered by the lesser developed of us sensing that you are failing to acknowledge the need to prioritize.

First, let's stop the direct mass murder. Then, let's lessen the ability to cause fear of personal harm. Then, let's enlighten ourselves about more dispersed injustices.

bin Laden is real and he is causing mass deaths and fear. Even if he is a creature formed by his environment, even if there are cultural idiosyncracies which explain his behavior, these have little influence upon or relevance to job one. Call him a freedom fighter for all I care. The name is irrelevant to immediate priorities.

Dan

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM

PuppySpot:

You appear to have misconstrued my point. Apathetic indifference to "right action" is what I was condemning, not stepping forwrad to stop a psychotic situation.

Larry is right in his implicit argument: with enough intelligence, compassion and a deep understanding of what drives people to the edge of violence, we could do everything with good PR and compassionate organizational work (including enterprise funding, etc.) that we now back our sorry asses into violent war to accomplish. But it would require a much higher grade of analysis than we now pursue.

For example, good intelligence and analysis would have perceived the emergence of a psychotic charismatic leader in the early stages of Laden's conversion from playboy to guru, and the ramification woudl have been well enough understood that we could have acted to divert the path to power before he made any advance on it. Unfortunately this kind of foresight requires very high-class management skill, not a qualification of our governments generally.

A

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:47 PM

You assume to much! I don't believe in caitol punishment also. I not only hold the psycotic druggy in the light, I have worked on class 1 A drug fellony cases. When I went into law, I though that those cases would be the hardest to stomach, and yet to my great surprise, I found that drug deelers are human as well. One sticks out in my mind, an older Black man, who had spent most of his life in the army, the early part of that time, in a segrigated army. He spent most of his elderly life in a federal prison. Even the judge, a rather conservative fellow, saw the humanity in the man, and gave him the minimum under the Rockefeller laws, 10 to life. The judge said if he had any discretion under the laws, he excersise it all. Now this fellow had not been involved in murder - but I have yet to find someone in their right mind beyond the reach of the light. I don't believe Bin Ladin is insane, he has committed insane acts, but unfortunatly he subscribes to the majority convention that if you are hit you hit back harder. and Jeasus weeps.
Larry
PS as does Allah, Budha, Krishna, and fill in the blanks...

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM

Ah...I see. So the darkly psychotic druggy drive-by shooter gets the gas chamber and bin Laden gets a religious conversion to a man of peace? How come no one is holding the psychotic druggy in the light?

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM

PS I love your handle Spot! It makes one want to say "Good Boy!" no matter what the post. Best wishes, and a scratch behind the ears from Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

Well, that war is always the troubling point for many. I have a number of friends who went into that war when the US and Britain still did not see a need to do so, for example my friend Jock, who was in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Of course, the real question is why did American corporations build up the Nazi state when so many here knew of the evil of Nazism, in fact the John Rockafella and the Morgan Trust bank worked with the Nazis through out the war. Nazism would not have been able to rearm without the aid of the Swiss banks and American corporations, so the time to have stoped Hitler was long before the holocaust. I would remind you that we did not bomb the rail lines to Auswitz, so the war to stop genocide was not really that. I know I have avoided the core question to a small degree, but here we are at a time when we have the need for other options, Bin Ladin does not have tank corps which can be opposed in open battle, rather there is the smoldering hatred of a single fellow with a bomb, and armies are never good at opposing that, more changing the world is a better way of defuseing that. So, though I admitt to avoiding the core question, the core question has little or nothing to do with this situaiton.
I would also point you to the carreer ending work of the late Congressman Bingham of Ct. who was in the US consulate in the south of France. He was the only US diplomat honnored by the UN this past year for smuggling jews and others out of occupied France. Like many of the other diplomats, his nation, the US destroyed his carreer as a diplomat for going against national policy. So, why do we fight wars, I don't know, it is seldom for the reasons the history books give. I just hope you are one of those who goes against what the mainstream demands of you and you help the exile and the hungery, that does much more to end war than making a bigger blood stain.
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:11 PM

Was going to war against Hitler and Hirohito right and justified in 1939-1945 then? I for one am glad that "we" did. I hope this doesn't brand me as "succumbing to my darkest impulses" or as a "wistless cork"

Spot

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:54 AM

Amos said it all, and thanks brother, but I would only add, does that also go to justify murder and rape? No wonder he or she does not share a name with us!
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:25 AM

War is something NATURAL?

Give me an effing break here. It may be natural the way having a lizard brain is natural, but your analogy of converting vultures is deeply flawed. We have ahistory of working away from our worst sides and toward our various ideals. Embracing our deepest psychotics as our natures would be the ethical equivalent of the druggy driveby shooter who takes out a little girl at the corner traffic light "because I felt like it, man!".

I dunno about you, but succumbing to my darkest impulses because they are part of my "nature" is not part of any intention I have, and I would suspect such a notion would indicate a complete lack of intention on the part of the proponent -- an apathetic retreat into zero-responsibility, life as a wistless cork.

No thanks, pal. I prefer to believe there are better ways of being human, and to look for them.

A.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:48 AM

Sometimes I wonder...everyone thinks that war is so horribly wrong, yet it has been a part of humanity since the beginning. Why not assume it is something natural? Vultures are carnivores by nature. Carnivores rely on eating dead animals. Should we try and convert all the vultures to vegetarians?

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:46 AM

Saint Augustine, I believe it was, said he did not believe that there was a devil, that evil was not a thing, not a force of evil, but was a void. Evil was the absence of good. It was the absence of order, the absence of love, the absence of care, the absence of reasoned thought, a void.
The void of evil cannot be filled with more evil. George Fox once said that I cannot believe that that which is forbidden in the comandments is then allowed in another circumstance.
It is very hard in the face of so many very good people being killed to live our principles, even for Quakers. We are angered as well, but more, we are deeply sorrowful.
How do we fill the void? Well, at present, we are the child who does not share his toys, and the abused kid, whose parents beat on him every night has just punched him in the nose. The teacher sits the hitter in the corner, but the other spoiled rich kid, continues to not share his toys... Is the little pscho kid going to learn his lesson? Likely not.
If we as a nation, take on world hunger, take on issues of production without exploitation, of teaching tolerance, than we might live in a less frightening world. It is harder, takes more national resolve than bombing people into submission, but there you are, the result is filling the void of evil with good.
We dehumanize people and governments who do evil, and it makes it possible for us to ignore our part in making a world that does not make evil people. Is it just cooincidence that crime occures more readily among folks with less equal opportunity? Victorian writers tried to say that crime was genetic that the English working class were a separate degenerate race, and it made it possible to use force against crime rather than fairness against crime. We go on and on, using force in the face of reason, and goading others to use force in return. It is so very very simple, and yet, no one wants to do the hard work of applying the obvious solutions.
In our neighborhood we have Syrains, Bosnians, Irish, Yugoslaves, so many who have seen generations of war. All of them I have spoken to are 1. shocked at the news comentary that we are hated for our freedoms, 2. afraid to speak out in this land of liberty to say it is not your freedoms but the excesses paid for in other nations that is at the root of hatred.
Now, as in any crime, it is not the majority of those who resent our excesses who act out, it is a small minority, and our excesses do not justify the violence sent our way, but it will happen with certainty if we do not begin to work on the root causes of disatisfaction.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:02 AM

Anyone who "wishes for war" is an ass. War is about the stupidest confession ofhuman aberration ever seen, and its historical popularity is a grim testament to human insanity.

On the other hand, failing to face up to evil is equally insane. Larry is clearly doing his part to confront some parts of the evil in the world. Seems to me there is no question the Knights of the Quesadilla are pretty much engaged in evil, regardless of their rationalized justifications. And given that they have carried that evil into the midst of our cities, I don't see where our alternative lies other than to use as much force as needed to unman this psychosis. This is true whether or not we have committed harm in earlier incidents.

While there may be a lot of corners in the organization behind our composite civilization, where greed and profit motives overweigh more rational goals, I would also have to add that the 5 to 6 thousand people who got wiped from life last month were mostly just trying to do what good they could, build some sort of future, and get along and get ahead -- in short, to pursue happiness. Their right to do so got violently curtailed by an act of war. That cannot be gainsaid regardless of the complexity of antecedent offenses.

Larry, what do you suggest the Administration should be doing about that?

A.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:44 AM

I never seace to be amazed a people who believe all who chose to live as they always have, and not in YOUR world, are living in the past. One group of people have not inherted the right to live in the modern world by stealing from others who live in THEIR modern world of hunting and gathering. It is ecconomic fundamentalism which is as destructive as religious fundementalism. As to personal attacks, I do appologise if I have made ad hominum attacks by saying wake up. My wife wakes me up every morning. Some times with "Larry Wake THE FUCK UP!" She means well, you need to get up early in New York to get by... As to hiding behind anonimity, well, to each his own. I do perfer to speak face to face, or name to name, but well this is now the world in which we live.
If you think the Innu live in a world that has no right to exist anymore, because you want their streams for your electicity, well, once the salmon are gone, and the bears that depend on them, and the dear who depend on bears thining the herds and the carabou who are part of the cycle, and the lichen and bacteria that exist on the lichen... well remember when we tried to recreate an ecco system in a dome, we couldn't do it. So, live in the modern world! I would rather live in the world created for us by a far more intelligent power.
Yours in the light (and the one big union)
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,swoopy
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:43 AM

I wouldn't advocate sending Asama bin laden a transcript of this thread

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM

Dear GUEST Chickenshit: if you're going to come out with this crap, at least don't hide behind anonymity. Even assholes have names.

Thanks, Greg

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM

Never mind all the nobility being espoused here. It is wasted in a piece of crap like Osama Bin Laden. Why? He declared war on the United States years ago, (Not to mention his native Saudi Arabia. I will be the first to admit that our policies Inre the Middle East need to be updated and more culturally sensitive but let's do that after the self appointed guardian of Islam is dispatched and I mean DEAD so there is no mistake. What his minions did is no less an act of war than the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor! At least the Japanese attacked a miltitary target. As to the Taliban, They were asked several times and knowing what our position regarding Bin Laden was, refused to turn him over even before the attacks of September 11. He was after all and still is the primary suspect in the attack on the USS Cole. In every nation in the world, if you sheild a killer yopu are an accessory to murder. In international usage by their failure to turn over Bin Laden they are rightly aggressors with the Al Quaeda. They could have avoided this whole mess by turning Bin Laden over to Pakistan or to the Hague. The U.S. would have accepted that condition. Instead, the Taliban wants to play games. This weeks game is war. Sucks to be them. Neil

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:19 AM

InOBU I suggest you wake the fuck up.... You are not the only person who cares about these people. We have survived many years of trying to work towards justice and equality for all. The northern peoples have the highest suicide rate because they try to live in a world that no longer exists. While I admit they have been for the most part been administered by a stupid system of socialist government, that has consistently failed them. They are responsible for the present conditions they choose to remain in.. Treaties that were signed 200 years ago no longer apply, and the pathetic attempts at enforcing them result in greed and stupidity amongst those who would not agree to work within a common law. You seem to think that war should not be used to contain and diffuse Bin Laden... May I suggest that you remember the first attempt at destroying the WTC failed. You cannot negotiate with someone who is trying to kill you until you have him by the balls kicking and screaming for mercy, or dead at your feet. Try it sometime, you might find a different perspective on life. I am not interested in your personal resume, ego and beliefs. Discuss the issue without trying to insult people. Many people who have different viewpoints may share the same goal as you. Your style of debate would turn them away from discussing the issue.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:06 AM

Our friend ddw puts forward "Then I realized the difference between the empirical and the normative worlds and decided to live in the empirical. You should give it a try. " Well... I have lived in both rather deeply. My scores on the logic section of the LSATS, where in the 100% nationwide. Now, as most of the real eggheads in logic go to law school that is pretty sucessful living in the empirical world, I grant you, but, I also fished a currach off the coast of Ireland, I traveled with hunter gatherer Indians in the far north of Canada, and worked as a photo journalist in Belfast, I have spent late nights in devanos (councils) with American Roma (Gypsies) and I have seen many many problems there, from Ireland having their fishing rights sold out from under the people to Native lands being stollen as I write this, to wars being kept smoldering for the benifit of NATO, and the answer that is human nature is pure bull. Fact is, read a few of Richard Leaky's speachs (the son of Louis and Mary Leaky). He went from ANthoropology to politics after loosing both legs in a plane crash.
At that point he realised that the real core of human nature is empathy. The modern money driven world makes empathy the enamy. We make war on empathy and call that resulting cold hearted politic which makes electricity for New York by destroying the lives of Innu and Cree human nature! I hear Morely's ghost screaming HUMANITY WAS MY BISSINESS, as he rattles his chains and ask you do the same. Go get on a bus - a plane, go and see Innu villages which have the highest instance of child suiside, where teens are killing themselves as their world is eaten by North Eastern American states for electricity, while our roofs are bare, hardly a single solar panal, cause our electric companys don't want to make electricity they want to make money. Wake up, THAT IS THE NORMATIVE WORLD! It has real palpable victems who bleed and die. WAKE THE F*CK UP!
Lovingly
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:03 AM

Dan, I am not suggesting you are a thug at all. I don't know you. I know I'm not a thug (I'm basically non-violent in nature), and I doubt that you are one either.

I am suggesting that we all tend to carry prejudices that we are unaware of. In unstable or more violent personalities that can quickly contribute to becoming a thug, that's for sure...or it can contribute to becoming a "freedom fighter" or whatever else one could call it.

ddw - Well, I am a philosopher by nature, not a general or a politician. If I was a general, I'd probably have my mind set on achieving victory. Then again, the most brilliant politicians sometimes have a strong philosophical bent, but those types are relatively rare in politics. Most are simple pragmatists, after victory also.

You say that love cannot exist without its attached opposite, hate. A fascinating statement! In a world based on the notion of limited and separated things, that is quite correct. Yet all the highest spiritual teachings I've studied (from numerous traditions) suggest that that world is in a sense illusory...that it's merely a preliminary pathway toward a higher understanding in which all things are seen in a single unity...like a hologram.

A hologram may appear to contain many separate things within it, yet if you take the very tiniest part of it, you will find within that part the image of the WHOLE HOLOGRAM! This is explained in the spiritual traditions as the indwelling divine unity, the One, revealing itself within all the apparently separated things that make it up as a whole...and which arise out of it.

Okay. I realize I'm ranging far afield here. But I am serious.

We subject children to more rules and restrictions than we do adults. That's partly because they are not yet aware of nearly all the factors in a situation which an adult is generally presumed to be aware of. So we let children believe in the simple concepts of good guy/bad guy, like in the comics. Real life is more complex than that.

In just such a way, a person who thinks in terms of separation, will always divide the world up in terms of good guys/bad guys...love/hate...all the usual dualities.

A person who sees an undivided unity (a single human race, for example) won't do that, but will strive only for the good in all circumstances, only for love.

I realize it probably sounds like sheer mumbo jumbo, and from a separated point of view, it is. But from a unified point of view, it's not. When you genuinely see the other person as you, you can no longer willfully do harm to them. I haven't reached that yet, but I am certainly aspiring towards it.

As for equality, I've seen and heard of numerous situations where far greater efforts have been made in that direction than are being made at present in most societies. It is possible. You are correct that it would mean a lowering of North American lifestyles (at first). I frankly wouldn't mind that, because I've lived in far simpler lifestyles and been happier for it...and healthier.

I kid you not. We are sick little birds in our gilded cages here, wasting our precious time on way too much virtual reality and materialistic excess. I know this, because I do it myself on a regular basis. Why? Because I'm weak. I am easily distracted into wasting my time on stuff like trying to explain unified spiritual field theory to people who mostly couldn't care less about it or even give it consideration. :-)

Whether you are one of those people I don't know.

I believe that Love and Knowledge are about the only 2 things that ultimately are real. When they become complete, they are the same thing...complete LOVE = complete KNOWLEDGE.

I regard hate as an illusion that springs out of concepts of limitation and separation and fear...which doesn't mean it's totally useless...it's a stepping stone in order to have experiences which eventually awaken the soul to the fact that the original notion is an illusion which no longer serves it.

That doesn't mean people who hate are not dangerous. They are...on a physical basis. I try to avoid them, and if I cannot avoid them, then I deal with them whatever way I best can, under the circumstances, but I do not seek to imitate them and sink to their level. And yes, there are times when one had best fight the good fight in defence of oneself or others. We may have different ideas about when is the right time for that.

You state that there will always be people who are smarter, stronger, or more ambitious. Absolutely! In an enlightened system those are the very people who do their best to raise less capable people up to a higher understanding and expression of life. In other words, through natural leadership they render service unto their weaker bretheren. They do not dominate, they serve. I have always been happy to take direction and leadership from people whom I clearly saw were more capable than myself at this or that thing. That's natural.

The doing of a beautiful work is itself the greatest reward. Not the money. Not the recognition, but the doing of the work. It is through that doing itself that the soul is ennobled and made more complete.

So....now that you all probably think I'm totally nuts (and off-topic!), I can shrug, take it in good humour, and go get a good night's rest.

Sleep well yourself,

- Little Hawk

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:07 AM

That's all interesting, LH, but weren't a lot of the people the Taliban put on trial trying — to one degree or another — to follow the path you espouse?

Peace, love and equality are nice concepts, but a reality check tells me there's little of it around now, there has been precious little of it in the past and there's little chance of it in the future.

Peace can never last as long as there are scarce commodities (food, building materials, oil, fish, whatever) to fight over.

Love can exist, but only with its attached opposite, hate. The more you love a person, place, god or whatever, the more imperative it is that you kill anyone or anything that threatens it.

Equality never has and never will exist. We can legislate equality of opportunity, but only with the inevitable outcome that all standards will be lowered to the mediocre, way below anything we would consider excellence. But there will always be people who are smarter or stronger or more ambitious than others and I've never heard of — in life, history or science fiction — any society or social institution that could level the playing field for long.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM

That it's just a CULTURAL THING?

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:05 AM

Little Hawk: Are you seriously suggesting that I or anyone try to get in touch with bin Laden's feelings, or those of his al queda membership, or those of the Taliban elite? That any of them are not thugs? That I'm as much a thug as Osama bin Laden? Dan

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:57 PM

Hear, hear, LH!

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:26 PM

Hey, GUEST, I would have fled Afghanistan myself, years ago, if I were there and had the means to...be assured. On the other hand, when you've grown up in a little village in the mountains and it's the only reality you've ever known, then it may not seem like such an obvious choice. A lot of people tend to hunker in and just try to survive in such a situation.

I fear that if the Taliban fall, another regime will shortly be in place that will be equally bad...the Northern Alliance do not have a good past record. On the other hand, almost anything might be an improvement, I suppose. That's assuming the Taliban are decisively defeated, which may or may not happen. They may just hang on longer than anyone thinks. We'll see.

Don't forget that the utterly insane Kymer Rouge were backed by money and arms from the CIA and China! (Talk about strange bedfellows) Vietnam finally kicked them out of Cambodia, due to chronic border skirmishes, among other things.

Vietnam oughta get a Nobel prize on behalf of a grateful humanity for that particular effort, despite their lousy human rights record within their own borders during the same period...they were a vast improvement over Pol Pot.

One other thing to remember...everyone on either side of this dispute (or any other) looks upon the other guys as "thugs refusing to cooperate" or to listen to reason. That's how many people in the Islamic countries see Israelis and Americans...as arrogant thugs with high-tech weapons.

If any one of you (including me) had been born in a different family, in a different country, then it is very likely that our views would be radically different. This doesn't mean we are born evil in nature, it means we have only a partial view of reality. One person's thug is another person's hero. One person's terrorist is another person's martyr.

To know this is to experience compassion, and to work for peace, not further bloodshed.

Peace can only be achieved through greater equality, on all levels of life, not through the temporary victory of one side over the other.

Equality. That is something worth working toward, and who can say that it is unjust to do so.

I don't want victory, I want equality. When I walk among equals, I have no reason for fear. When I walk among beaten enemies, I fear the knife in my back at any moment.

- LH

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:35 PM

P.S. No one of any significance has said we should kill anyone because Taliban are not nice to women.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:19 PM

Larry, we all know you were closest to ground zero and have afforded you deference in light of that knowledge. Your opinions are likely to carry added weight from your personal experience. May I politely and sincerely suggest that you have advantages to squander if you so choose, with, perhaps, a hint of condescension.

Dan

To answer your probably rhetorical questions:

Virtually no one wishes for war.
The Taliban are not a legitmate government by international conventions. They are thugs refusing to cooperate.
Killing or imprisoning bin Laden is not to scare him. It is intended to deactivate him personally.
Israel still exists.
A just world is not a short term viable objective. It is a long term ideal.
Yes, it appears that Afghanistan was an unfortunate sin of omission during Clinton's tenure. That's water under the bridge.

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM

Larry,

A lot of us do use our heads to think, but we start from the basis of human nature as revealed by history, not as we would wish it to be. You can tout the benefits of reason all you want, but you can't sell it to unreasonable people and the unreasonable — for reasons of laziness, stupidity, other priorities or whatever — will always outnumber those actually capable of and willing to think.

I spent a few years of my life — from about age 20 to 26 — making the same arguments you are. Then I realized the difference between the empirical and the normative worlds and decided to live in the empirical. You should give it a try. Calls for making some nasty choices occasionally, but at least you get to actually DO something, rather than sit around and whine that things should be better.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:15 PM

Well let's see, What I have seen and continue to see, is that when we take the easy reactionary responce of killing the killers we often almost always return other killers to power, for example even the US gov. expresses a concern that if the Northern Alience enters Kabul, they will just become the new Taliban. Rumaninans shot Chercescu and put similar bastards in power, We killed the president of Soutn Veit Nam, our bastard who got out of control, and well it just happens again and again. Lets just stop doing the same damn thing again and again? When do we learn? You think you can scare a suiside bomber into not doing it again??? THink about it? Do you think you can kill enough of his family that he wont do it again??? Israel tried and to what end.
I am not talking about apeasment, I am talking about working for a just world. Where where all the hawks when we of faith and caring were demanding help for the women of Afganistan, now suddunly they are an issue when it sutes those who wish to use them as part of the reason we should kill in their nation.
Please think with your heads - more of your head than your limbic system.
Larry

Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From:
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM

Arrggh bloody IE, always trying to be clever!

As I was saying before I was rudely interrupted:

Thank you for your efforts Larry and that of your fellow Quakers. It may not make any diifference, but at least it is a breath of sanity.

I have a couple of questions,

1 Why is it that anyone (myself included) that suggests addressing causes rather than symptoms feel the necessity to make explicit their horror at the slaughter in New York? Can this not be taken as read in view of our common humanity? 2. The US has always rightly prided itself on being a nation founded on the rule of law. Why then the military action against Afghanistan, preceeded by demands and threats rather than a request for extradition of Bin Laden to the Hague, if the evidence against him is so strong?

Pete M