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BS: Am I Missing Something Here?
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Subject: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 02 - 02:54 PM This has come up recently in two threads--the ethnic/cultural assumptions of some folks here. Over in one thread this week, someone suggested there might be cultural differences between British drinking folk and American drinking folk. Just now, in the showmanship thread, Murray points out that we have all forgotten it is Burns' Night tonight. Is it me, or are there some pretty hefty cultural assumptions being made in Mudcat about who "we" are here? My ancestry is French and Polish. I'm an American citizen. Yet there seems to be this assumption that we are all good Brits or Celts (well, yes I am Breton--but not a British Breton!) both sides the pond? Really, am I supposed to take care to notice that it is Burns' Night, or that the British lads like their drinks at the sing-around down at the local? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST,Mad4Mud at work Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:06 PM Burns' Night is celebrated in America. You just have to find the right crowd. Maybe you should widen your circle of friends. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Maryrrf Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:09 PM Burns Night is definitely celebrated by my crowd! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Mark Clark Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:18 PM GUEST, For the most part, all of us here harbor a deep appreciation for the songs and traditions of people all over the world. We in the US want to know what's happening in Africa, Asia, Australia, Canada, Europe, South & Central America (and anywhere else) because all of these cultures have contributed their traditions to ours. I also find that people throughout the world who are working in their own traditions, often have an interest in US folk and traditional music as well. M4M is correct, you just need to find the right crowd... or maybe, since you're here, you've already found it. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Herga Kitty Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:18 PM Guest Well, the messages on Mudcat are usually posted in the English language, and there has been a constant exchange of songs back and forth across the Atlantic between England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada and America. There is a shared tradition, although the melting pot has added a lot of interesting stuff. Similar considerations apply to Mudcatters in Oz and NZ. The Irish and Scottish community in America and Australia is larger than in Ireland or Scotland. I understand that Rabbie Burns is very popular in Russia, and that Burns Night is celebrated by many non-Brit or Celtic people there too. He was a major collector / adapter of songs (not in English!)and it's quite appropriate to note that today is Burns Night. My own ancestry is half Polish/Jewish and half English/ Irish, with as far as I know not a tad of Scottish, but I still went out to lunch with a Welsh friend from work and ate haggis, neeps and tatties (in London, England). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:20 PM Probably exposing myself to some flames here, but I read your opening post, GUEST, with some amusement. I've noticed the same sort of thing from time to time. What amuses me about it is that it is we, in the US, who get accused of being insular. I find no small amount of irony in that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: MMario Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:28 PM I think cultural assumptions are just that - cultural assumptions. That means that it probably takes an effort to discard them. It shouldn't mean that one takes offense at someone else's assumptions; just acknowledge that sometimes it takes a bit of effort on both sides to reach a common meeting point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: paddymac Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:30 PM Guest - The first thing I'd like to suggest is that you become a member of the family. There's no cost, there is as much annonymity as you wish, and it's a great big global family. The flavor of mudcat changes as the "flavor" of the members and visitors changes. We have valued family members all around the globe. If I had to guess, I'd say that the majority are from the US and western Europe. My guess is that such a distribution reflects many things, but mostly it's just a matter of language. All of us are human (though we sometimes question the truth of that), and vulnerable to the usual and common foibles of the species. We all see the world from where ever we happen to sit, and pretty routinely bring those perspectives into discussions here. But the beauty of this commuinity is that we gradually learn to put aside many of our individual biases and prejudices and learn from each other about each other. There are sometimes those who seem content to live within their self-constructed cages, but most are sincerely open to the world. The fact that most of us never have a chance to personally meet other members, means that we are forced to form our views of others based on the ideas and emotions they express in writting. That means that the visual cues that normally inform so much of human behavior rarely come into play, which, in my humble view, is not a bad thing. In a more direct answer to your question, I think it is fair to say that there are some "pretty hefty cultural assumptions" made by some of us at different times, but I don't think it's either fair or accurate to view those as necessarily antagonistic to other world views or cultures. I want to thank you for starting this thread, and hope that others 'Catters from around the world will join in and share their thoughts.
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Herga Kitty Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:35 PM Oh hurray, a thread has just started on celebrating Australia Day, because it's already 26 January in Australia. There are usually appropriate celebrations for St David's Day, St Patrick's Day, St Andrews/ Hogmanay and Burns Night, but English people get buggerall opportunity to celebrate being English because St George's Day and Shakespeare's birthday (both 23 April) never get any worthwhile support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:36 PM Guest: Do take the opportunity to join our global family. And to all who celebrate the genius of Rabbie Burns "Here's tae us, There' damn few of us and most of them are dead." Kindest regards, neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST,Scabby Doug (without a cookie) Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:51 PM I don't know much about traditional Breton, or Polish, or West African celebrations with a musical aspect. But I'd be delighted to learn more. I'm only able to talk or write or sing about what I know. But please don't assume that I am content with "what I know" or that I am quite happy to operate within the bounds of a Celtic/Anglo-Saxon/English-speaking enclave. Two nights ago, I heard a fantastic Basque band playing traditional music from their region, and singing by Marta Sebesztyen (spelling could be a bit crazy there). I didn't know what to expect but I loved what I heard. As I write Glasgow(my home town) is hosting a festival which celebrates all sorts of music - there are musicians from all over Europe, America (North and South) and further afield. If you want to share songs or music with us, GUEST, and can't see anything that you'd like to partake of, please feel free to share your passions with us.. I for one, would be happy to hear what you have to say. Cheers
Steven |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Willie-O Date: 25 Jan 02 - 03:56 PM Hard to say. But I've noticed our island brethren seem to make the most assumptions that a reference to "the song half-circle under the cellar at East Froggywinkle" is both instantly comprehensible, and useful information, for catters at large. Irritating, but charming. And hey, there are cultural differences in drinking styles between Canadians and Americans, too. To be specific, a lot of Americans think we Canucks drink all the beer all the time and no one here takes any particular notice or passes judgment if that's your full-time pastime. Well, my wife does, but then she's still American. Willie-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:03 PM Thank you CarolC, for catching my drift. Apparently, there is also no shortage of cultural arrogance afoot here either, if the remark that it is non-Anglo/Celts who need to widen their circle of friends is to be taken seriously. Without a hint of irony? Hmmm... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Desdemona Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:05 PM Oh, pass the haggis (actually, could you please pass the whisky first?)! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:05 PM GUEST, Should Murray, who has left his we hoose mang the heather for our spacious skies and amber waves of grain, forget his auld acquaintance, and fail to encourage us to take a cup of kindness for auld Robbie Burns, just on the off chance that someone, such as yourself, would use it as an excuse to take the low road in thread like this? You should learn to be a bit tolerant--a man's a man for that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: bill\sables Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:11 PM Herga Kitty, I agree we don't celebrate St George's night in England as much as the Scots and Irish do their patron saints but for the last few years on April 23rd a few friends and myself have re-named it St Geordie's night and celibrated it in some local pub with tales of events from our youth in Newcastle area punctuated with Geordie songs. We all tend to eat Ham and Pease Pudding sandwiches and Black Bullets and wear flat caps and mufflers. Perhaps this idea should spread further South. Cheers Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Herga Kitty Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:28 PM Bill Well of course Geordies have the best of all worlds. I generally associate Ham and Pease Pudding with New Year, Allendale, various Keelers or ex-Keelers, but I probably have a lot to learn. Kitty
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: DougR Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:31 PM I see nothing alarming or untoward in Murray's reminding everyone of Burns Night. We remind our Mudcat friends of so and so's birthday all the time. Big deal. You evidently have been around the Mudcat for awhile (though I suppose that it might be possible for one to just look in one time and pick up the insight you seem to have of the folks in this forum). The third paragraph in your first post I find very interesting. You ask, "who is we?" We would like to know, who are you? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM Sticking up a mention of some local event, wherever it is, England, Australia, Pennsylvania, whatever - that doesn't indicate an assumption that everyone on the Mudcat lives round the corner and might come along. It's a hopeful recognistion that there miht be some who do and might.
And what it also is is a way of giving a thumns up to the idea that what folk music is centrally about isn't show business, it's about is people getting together where they are, and making music for the enjoyment of it. It's a way of saying "We are still doing it that way where I am", and expressing solidarity and encouragement for other people who are doing it on the other suide of the world.
And the same goes for reminding people about special days for people in some particular part of the world, or with klinks to some particular part of the world - Thanksgiving, Burns Night, St Patricks and so on, and the more the merrier. (And when it come to Bretons, it really is the more the merrier.)
For the Engkish I've alwasy felt that April 23rd is a bit artificial as a day to choose - May Day is far more of a vibrant tradition, even if it gets shifted to a Bank Holiday Monday somewhere in the vicinity of May 1st. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: artbrooks Date: 25 Jan 02 - 05:33 PM ANON.GUEST: people here put up information or ask questions under the assumption that someone within the Mudcat family will be interested or have the answer. A message about Burns' Night no more assumes that everyone here is Scots/Celts than other threads assume that everyone is interested in Morris Dancing in Hull, Miles Wooten or men's underwear (other current threads). There is an easy way to avoid topics that don't interest you...simply don't open the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: SINSULL Date: 25 Jan 02 - 05:35 PM To answer your original question: Yes. You are missing something. Burns Night Supper is an occasion not to be missed. Piping in the haggis, drinking to the piper, drinking to anything actually, pasties and neeps. Wonderful shortbreads. But mostly good company. Good music. Wondrous tales and stories. This is the first year in a long time that I am not going to one and I miss it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Rick Fielding Date: 25 Jan 02 - 05:50 PM I've been wondering why none of the Americans here ever seem to take notice of BEAVER DAY. OK, so I'm just a small time parochial Canuck, but BEAVER DAY has been a very important holiday for my family through at least five generations. Just to remind the other Canadians here that because BEAVER DAY falls on a Saturday this year (Jan 26) the traditional 'decorating the beaver' ritual has to be finished by midnite tonight. As most Scots will certainly know, along with the traditional BEAVER DAY feast (Cream of wheat mixed with Pemican and Salt Cod) left over haggis from Robbie Burns day, is usually thrown into the blender and whipped up with beer and dandelion greens. So everyone (Yanks and Brits included) Have a wonderful BEAVER DAY Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: SINSULL Date: 25 Jan 02 - 05:58 PM Gee Rick. I hope you invited Cletus, Paw, and the Reg boys. Sounds like their kind of fun. Dare I ask for more details about "decorating the beaver" or is that getting too personal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: sophocleese Date: 25 Jan 02 - 06:02 PM Rick I'm having difficulty getting to my dandelion greens, the snow is a little deep. What is an acceptable substitute? I'm only first generation Canadian and I don't want to offend with something inappropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Gareth Date: 25 Jan 02 - 06:09 PM Just remember folks - The Canadians may have thier "big Bruvver" to the South. Ours is to the East. Headline in the South Wales Echo " High winds close Severn Bridge - England isolated" Garydd ap Godfri ap Benji ap (please continue for many ancestors) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Jeri Date: 25 Jan 02 - 06:51 PM The original question: "Really, am I supposed to take care to notice that it is Burns' Night, or that the British lads like their drinks at the sing-around down at the local?" This question is a lot more complicated than it seems upon first reading. It asks what the correct behavior is: "Am I supposed..." First one has to determine who's in charge of making these decisions. This might be Max, but Max doesn't give a shit. I mean, seriously, Joe Offer or Pene Azul can enforce behavior standards to some extent. I don't know about you, but I can't see them writing a message saying "This message was posted on behalf of Jeri because not noticing is not allowed." The next available authority on my behavior here is me. Personally, I wouldn't start a thread to ask myself that question, I'd do it quietly, in private. I suppose the question needs to be in a thread in order to figure out that I was the one with the authority to make such a decision, though. Anyway, I just asked myself the question. The answer I gave was "I don't have to if I don't want to, nyah, nyah." I also came to the conclusion there were even some things I should take care NOT to notice. One of these things is BEAVER DAY, which I have not noticed and don't plan to ever notice. I don't care how Rick decorates his beaver. I didn't even know he had one. Not that I noticed he mentioned it in the first place. Well, OK - I noticed. I just didn't "take care to notice." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:08 PM Here's a page about Beaver Day - looks like fun. I didn't know the Beaver was supposed to be the National Animal of Canada though, I'd always assumed it was the Moose.
Since it seems pretty hopeful that the Beaver will be re-introduced into Scotland, maybe Beaver Day and Burns Night could be combined?
Maybe someone could write a Burns style tribute to the creature... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Don Firth Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:28 PM Hell!! It just occurred to me! I missed Guy Fawkes' Day last year!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: AliUK Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:30 PM BEAVER DAY! You decorate beavers? Why and do the women mind? Seriously though. I am english with a definite celt lineage, my I love brithish folk, country, blues and jazz. I live in Brazil, which has an amazing collection of music that I hear all the time as it is a living part of the culture here and not relegated to small clubs and concerts. In fact Carnaval starts here next week and I shall spend four days pissed out of my head and dancing in the streets. Beats the shit out of Burns Night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:50 PM I lost half my post there. So here it si again, since there was an interesting link in the part I lost. An dthe link I did include went somewhere maybe not wholly inappropriate, but not intended:
Here's a page about Beaver Day - looks like fun. I didn't know the Beaver was supposed to be the National Animal of Canada though, I'd always assumed it was the Moose.
And since there is every hope that the Beaver will be reintroduced into Scotland, perhaps Beaver Day and Burns Night could be brought together.
Maybe someone will feel moved to pen a Burns type tribute to this noble and industrious animal with its so highly evocative name... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: bill\sables Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:58 PM The local pub I attend was asking for ideas for theme nights, They already had a French night and a poachers night and are soon to have a Geordie night. I mentioned an American night on 4th July, Irish night on St. Patricks day and a Scottish night on St. Andrews day or Burns night. Do the Ausies and Canadians have another celibration day around July or August or can anyone give me any other ideas for theme nights from other lands Cheers Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:29 PM Doesn't Yorkshire have a national day? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: CarolC Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM It's not my intention to get involved in a debate on this subject, partly because I just don't have it in me right now, and partly because some of my favorite Mudcatters are among our friends across the pond. However, I think the opening post to this thread is a good example of the sort of thing the GUEST who started this thread is talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:00 PM No, I believe that the Moose is the national animal of Sweden. At least that's what the guy said when he sold me a tie with mooses all over it. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Rolfyboy6 Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:00 PM I'm descended from Norweigans and French Canadians and Frisians and.... And hey, I like Burns. And Burns Day is good with me. And all the other Days too. Burns is important to all English speakers because he defended his native dialect against homogenization before that was popular, and because he's a hell of a good poet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: PeteBoom Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:53 PM Right. So the next time any of my bands are involved in celebrations honoring Casmier Pulaski or Tadeusz Kosciuszko, I'll let you know. Beaver Day looks like an absolute blast. I think I'll try and get it recognized here South (well, portions of Michigan are actually NORTH or portions of Canada thanks to a couple of twists in a certain river) of the Border... Regards - Pete
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: SDShad Date: 25 Jan 02 - 10:34 PM Well I, for one, was right glad to be reminded (or just plain minded, since I'd been entirely unawares) that tonight is Burns night. Gave me time to pick up some Scotch (blended--too broke for the good stuff just now)on the way home from work, and sit on the deck watching the sunset, raising one in Rabbie's memory. Sure, I'm interested because of a fair bit of Scots heritage on my own part. But I'd love to hear of the celebrations of ethnic groups not my own, too. Can't imagine wanting such announcements not to appear. Chris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:42 AM CarolC--yes, thanks for the effort and acknowledgment of people clearly in the minority here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: paddymac Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:00 AM Thanks to the Mudcat, we were able to toast Burns' Day and Australia Day at our session last night. Unfortunately (or not) we couldn't find any haggis or 'roo burgers, so we settled for a two-fisted salute: a glass of scotch in one hand and a glass of Foster's in the other. It's actually a rather pleasant combination. If I had learned of Rick's favorite holiday earlier, it would assurredly have been included, with a pint of "Canadian Muscle" (Molson's). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: sledge Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:19 AM I think it is best if people put forward that which they are familiar with when mentioning celebrations or festivals of whatever ilk. After all, it is the culture in which they were raised, so they should know something about it. So its not too much to assume that they might want to share what they consider good news, whats wrong with that. If someone has heard of an interesting (to them) event then they may ask on the forum for a little more info, nothing wrong with that also, they may find out a great deal or just enough to keep them going in the right direction to find out more. If any body thinks this group is too narrow minded and ignores other cultural issues maybe they should get off their "guesting" arse and post some items of (if only to them) interest. That may then prompt discussion and exploration of that topic leading to wider world views all round, but the guest poster probably wont, so much more fun to flame and sow dissent. It bugs the shit out of me when people critisize things but offer nothing in the way off a remedy. Stuart is guest missing something? probably a bit of decency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Dave Bryant Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:03 AM With reference to celebrating St George's day, we (Barleycorn - Ted, Linda, & Myself) had a gig for a pub celebration last year. Also in the past I was involved in running ST GEORGES FOLK FESTIVAL at Cecil Sharp House, London (HQ of The English Folk Dance & Song Soc.) on the nearest weekend to April 23rd. I think, however, that the reason that Burn's Night and Paddy's night get celebrated more in England is that it's a chance for publicans to fill their pubs with ex-pats (and many distant descendants of the same). As to the the question about "Is there a Yorkshire national Day ?" - if you mean do they have a day when they go out and get pissed - yes it starts on Jan 1st and ends on Dec 31st ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: CarolC Date: 26 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM I think there's an important distinction that's being missed here. It looks to me like the complaint is not about whether or not people put forward that with which they are familiar. It looks to me like the complaint is more about the expectation that everyone else should be familiar with those same things, and anyone who isn't is deficient in some way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: DougR Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:45 PM Rick: "Beaver Day." I love it! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Paul from Hull Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:56 PM Can't see that anyone else has answered Kevins question so I will.....I'm a bit surprised that other Brits arent aware of it. Maybe we just arent advertising it enough! *G* Yorkshire Day, aka 'White Rose Day' is August the 1st, Mr McGrath |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:01 PM artbrooks-But surely everbody here is intersted in were Morris is dancing! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM I always chuckle at assumptions. I am thrilled when people of cultures, beliefs, political stripes find me common enough to assume that I am one of them. I enjoy being invited into celebrations that I normally am not a part of because I am not one of THEM. I realize as I type this that my cookie needs to be reset and my anonymity is seemingly secure. So being invited to a Burns nite dinner and recitation based solely on my manners and apparent interest in cultures other than mine I find flattering in the extreme. I won't get hot if someone assumes I am a Celtish sort anymore than I will be insulted if someone miss guesses my gender. I come into this forum of people I don't know not expecting to be intentionally insulted and hope my pardon is accepted in I should unintentionally insult someone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: Blackcatter Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM It seems to me that the Mudcat should have an official calendar - maybe entitled "Events to get pissed/drunk to" We could come up with cultural holidays so that we're never very far away from a "official" chance to raise a glass/bottle/can and play/listen to/butcher some music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST,Spoy the Dog Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:48 PM I celebrate them all. I have had 15 celebrations this year and it's only January (assuming that you work with the currently accepted international calendar). I tend to celebrate only the ones I can pronounce but I am willing to have a go at any Saint (or other religious deity) day of rememberance. I am truly multicultural when it comes to celebration. My problem at the moment is that my knowledge of religious / non religious / secular etc etc. days is a limiting factor so given that February (assuming that....etc.) is nearly upon us does anyone have anything I can celebrate during this month. (not St Valentine PLEASE.....) Would GUEST please sign in with an annonymous nom-de-plume so I can stop trying to guess who he/she is? Spot the dog |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST,Spot (not Spoy) the Dog Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM Help .............my cookie says its reset but I still appear as Guest (spot the Dog)..any answers? Spot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Am I Missing Something Here? From: GUEST,Spot the Dog Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:01 PM ............and I can't get at my personal pages.....Oh crumbs........ Dear Mr Clone, Could you please sort out my cookie and help me to become Spot the Dog again. I hate identity crisis. Many thanks Spot the Dog |