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Twelve-String Guitars

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GUEST,Butch McKinley 07 Jun 11 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Effectively capoing your 12-string -- a solu 07 Apr 08 - 11:55 PM
GUEST,Marty 11 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM
GUEST 11 Mar 08 - 03:43 PM
Dan Schatz 11 Mar 08 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Marty 10 Mar 08 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Britt 10 Mar 08 - 01:23 AM
GUEST,Jim 26 Nov 04 - 10:09 AM
Roger the Skiffler 26 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM
Grab 26 Nov 04 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Heather Mansfield (SA) 26 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM
chris nightbird childs 17 Nov 04 - 01:32 AM
GUEST,dubya 16 Nov 04 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,Heather Mansfield (South Africa) 29 Oct 04 - 07:19 AM
GUEST,ed 07 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,GIBSONSLIDER@WEBTV.NET 13 Mar 04 - 05:50 PM
Bernard 12 Mar 04 - 12:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM
musiclover 26 Feb 04 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,jay 26 Feb 04 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 26 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM
Walking Eagle 26 Feb 04 - 03:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Feb 04 - 02:46 PM
freightdawg 26 Feb 04 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,jay 26 Feb 04 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,mikee 20 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Kevin, Edinburgh 13 Aug 03 - 11:05 AM
Amos 12 Aug 03 - 10:44 PM
GUEST 12 Aug 03 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,blamin 12 Aug 03 - 03:42 AM
freightdawg 07 Aug 03 - 11:12 PM
Eckerd 07 Aug 03 - 02:16 PM
Steve Benbows protege 05 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM
banjoman 05 Nov 02 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,william.lilliott@agedwards.com 04 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM
John MacKenzie 26 Apr 02 - 03:10 PM
53 26 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,guitguy 26 Apr 02 - 10:36 AM
GUEST 26 Apr 02 - 10:03 AM
Songster Bob 17 May 01 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Rick Neeley 16 May 01 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,ban-jo@msn .com 16 May 01 - 11:49 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 01 - 02:53 PM
Lanfranc 07 Apr 01 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,terry wrisley 07 Apr 01 - 12:42 AM
Iguanaguy 22 Mar 01 - 08:51 AM
Bedubya 21 Mar 01 - 05:08 PM
Bernard 21 Mar 01 - 03:27 PM
texastoolman 21 Mar 01 - 01:20 PM
catspaw49 21 Mar 01 - 09:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: GUEST,Butch McKinley
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:50 PM

Two words: John Fahey. According to Federico Sheppard of Paracho del Norte, John used a cheap European 12 string for his recordings. Great sound, great recording technique. Butch


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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: GUEST,Effectively capoing your 12-string -- a solu
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:55 PM

A tip, for what it's worth:

Easier and more effective than cutting E- and A-string notches in the rubber of your Shubb capos: get hold of some 1/8" thick mouse-pad material (you can find mouse-pads cheap as dirt -- try eBay for instance).

Measure the rubber part of of the capo that goes across the strings; cut a piece of mouse-pad to fit; and Krazy Glue the cloth side of the mouse-pad to the rubber.

The mouse-pad being spongy, it'll press down both the regular and octave strings more effectively than the rubber sleeve does, with absolutely no buzzing.

It also makes retuning less of a necessity, because the capo doesn't need to be as tight in order for it to compress all the strings.

Mouse-pad material is rugged, and seems to last forever. I've been using my "Mouse-pad Modified Capo" for a couple years now and it shows almost no wear.

Those of you with tender sensibilities who might be concerned about ruining the rubber on your capo, keep in mind that Shubb offers rubber sleeve replacements for a buck!

Cheers!

Glenn Jones
Cambridge, MA
gkjones1@comcast.net


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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: GUEST,Marty
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM

Thanks, Dan. It's the one thing I didn't try. But if I can get it away from that guy with the Martin. I will.


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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:43 PM

Thats a neat idea Dan
Its a lot better than your French !!
It took ages to work out what "WALLA" meant!!


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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:38 PM

It sounds to me like your neck is too thick for the capo. Most Shubb capos come with a little plastic piece on the end of the screw that keeps the screw from wearing a groove in the metal when the capo is closed. If you remove the little plastic piece, WALLA! You have a capo capable of accomodating a wider neck.

Of course, you might have tried that, in which case - I got nothin'.

Dan


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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: GUEST,Marty
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:41 PM

I like my six-string and banjo Shubb capos, but the 12-string model would pop off of my Guild no matter how I set it up. It has found a happy home with a bandmate's Martin and I am fairly happy with a spring-clamp Dunlop. Has anybody run into this problem with a Shubb? And if you did, is there a better solution than replacing the capo?


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Subject: RE: Twelve-String Guitars
From: GUEST,Britt
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 01:23 AM

Let me brag a littler bit about my 12-string. It's different, it's rare, and best of all it sounds great.

I have a National steel-bodied Delphi 12-string guitar. National guitar will custom build a 12-string for you for most models of their metal bodied and wood-bodied guitars for a 10% upcharge.

I play this 12-string resonator finger-style, and it is really wonderful. The sound comes off louder and brighter, due to the resonator, but without too much of the "little bells" or "chimes" sound produced by wooden guitars with their softer tones. It's hard to describe, but pianos have multiple strings struck simultaneously by a single hammer. The multiple strings are indistinct. What you hear is a piano. This guitar sounds less like a 12-string, and more like some completely different guitar, one that's perfect for blues and ragtime.

For example, the low base notes on the 5th and 6th strings almost sound like a tuba.

That's my two cents.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:09 AM

Hey Jay - if you're on a tight budget I'd suggest one from the Godin workshops in La Patrie Canada (makers of Norman, Simon & Patrick, Seagull) - they are the best (at the price) guitars in the world (though China is catching up fast).

The beauty of these guitars is in the sound and build quality, but they have slim profile necks (they are sub-contractors to Martin for fretboards I'm told) and it is especially important to buy a 12 string that is not difficult to play. If you search for reviews on the net you will see how highly regarded they are (not just reviews from owners, but magazine reviewers too).

Unlike Martin, for example, they do not have a heavy marketing budget and just rely on word of mouth recommendations, so with limited overhead costs the buyers get the benefit.

Check out reviews (eg Simon & Patrick) here:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Simon---Patrick/SP12-01.html

Good luck


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:35 AM

Slight thread creep. I've complained in the past that no-one uses the 12-string on the blues circuit these days. Last week's acoustic set by Nine Below Zero used one on several numbers , great to hear one again outside the skiffle/folk arena.

RtS


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Grab
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:21 AM

Heather, why didn't you try typing "Egmond guitar" into Google first? More info than you could ever want.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,Heather Mansfield (SA)
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:03 AM


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:32 AM

Hey Gibsonslider! I got one like that!


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,dubya
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:41 PM


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,Heather Mansfield (South Africa)
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 07:19 AM

Hi Guys, can anyone tell me any information about Egmond 12-strings? I cant seem to find any information about them.
Thanks:)


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 07:38 AM

i use a washburn 12 string. and this thing is built ford tough. i tune it 1/2 step down which would be EbEb AbAb etc.....i don't do it to save the neck, i just do it because i like the way guitars sound tuned this way. to me, when tuning a 12 string you have to be able to tune by ear. you can use a tuner to get it close. but each string has to be tunes the the other, otherwise it will never sound in tune. i tune the thicker string first then i tune the octave string to the thicker string. if you use a tuner they will always be a little off, since there is a range in which the tuner will say the string is in tune.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING STELLAS
From: GUEST,GIBSONSLIDER@WEBTV.NET
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:50 PM

STELLA 12 STRING TRAPEEZE TAIL MODEL FULL SIZE LATE 50'S SUNBURST NICE CONDITION NO REPAIRS ETC TAKING OFFERS ON THIS GUITAR OR ANY ONE KNOW VALUE


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Bernard
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:56 PM

Anybody done any experimentation with high density tungsten strings?

A fiddle player I know has a five string fiddle with HDT for the low C string, because he can get the low pitch (like a viola) using a much thinner (and shorter) string than would be possible with conventional strings.

I don't know if such strings are readily available for guitarists, though I believe some people use them on bouzoukis, which would suggest they may be...

Just a thought...


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM

Yepes, ike some other Spanish guitarists, add four lower strings, which add extra bass notes, and increase the sympathetic vibrations, "amplifying and enhancing the sound quality."
Don't know any more about it than that.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: musiclover
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:35 PM

hi again.

this is jay .
I am now musiclover. haha.
im definitely glad that i stumbled upon this site last night.
umm. thanx again. im gonna go play my six string.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,jay
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:30 PM

thanks for the advice freightdawg, and guest: martingibson.

I think it will be a while before i can afford a twelve string though.
I gotta pay for college and rent, no money left after that ha ha. thats the way of the world though. Ill save for one though. Im gonna become a member of mudcat. and i will continue to read and learn. thanks again.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM

Consider pursuing a very decent used 12 string.

Gibson made model B25-12 which is a smaller body guitar still with good sound. I have seen these used available $550-750 range.

The larger, full sized version was the B45-12. Figure $800-1000. Built like a tank, very durable.

With either of these investments, you are buying one of the finest American or anywhere brand name around. These instruments, will serve well for decades and because of their Gibson legacy, will hold their value, if not slightly increase (12 string guitars do not increase in value as much as 6 string guitars due to their more limited market desirability).


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:03 PM

I love my 12, but may have to give it up due to a physical problem. My 12 is a leftie Martin J15-12. The body of it is narrow and seems to sit nicely under my arm. Martins' J series is similar in depth to their 000 & 00s. I find this depth to be much easier on a woman for playing. I had a bit of trouble getting used to the heavy neck bracing as it puts the guitar a tad out of balance. I use a Kyser 12 string capo with it.

That 10 string sounds interesting Q. Do you have any idea how it was tuned?


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:46 PM

The famous Spanish classical guitarist, Narciso Yepes, used a 10-string for most of his performances and recordings. A couple of the Hawaiian guitarists use a 12-string to good effect on recordings that I have.
Not a guitarist, but it seems to me that Freightdawg covers some important points.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: freightdawg
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:34 PM

Guest Jay,

Welcome to the Mudcat, and you really need to be a member. It doesn't cost anything, but offers some good little treats, like being able to send personal messages, and Mud chat and other goodies.

You asked about advice about a 12 string. If you noticed the list of related threads at the top of this one, you can get a whole encyclopedia of knowledge if you scroll through them. One word of special advice, any guitar store will charge more for a 12 string than a 6 string. The problem is, you can pay a little more and get a real piece of junk, or you can pay a little more than that and get a quality instrument. The twelve strings add a considerable amount of tension on the bridge, and if it is not braced correctly the plate will pull away from the top. Also, the neck has more tension on it so it tends to warp more. Some of this can be compensated by lowering the tuning (hence the many discussions on 12 string tuning) but a really well made instrument should hold standard tuning. Now, about price. If you are serious about a nice (new) guitar that will last a few years, I would say $800 - 1,000 would be a minimum. There are probably some screaming deals out there lower than that, but buyer beware. I personally would start at about $1,200 - 1,500, and from a reputable company or luthier you know and trust. Used prices will be somewhat less, but make sure the bridge is in good condition and that the action (the distance between the strings and the frets) is acceptable to you. As far as tuning, on the lower 4 courses (sets) of strings, each string in the set is tuned an octave apart, in the two highest courses each string in each set is tuned to the same note. So what you would have in standard tuning is eE, aA, dD, gG, BB, EE. That is what gives the 12 its distinctive sound. Then, there are a multitude of alternate tunings, and you can play with the octaves as well.

Hope you get your 12. It is almost a different instrument than your 6 string, and you will learn to love both of them for different reasons, and use them for different purposes. I had a 12 as a teenager and gave it up, to much moaning and groaning later. Now I have another one and I will give it up when they pry it from my cold dead fingers (to quote a well worn out phrase).

Keep pickin' and grinnin'.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,jay
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:27 AM

hi all. I am a beginner to a six string still. but i Want a twelve string more than anything. Huddie Ledbetter is definitely one of my biggest inspirations and heroes. My other hero is the late kurt cobain, He was also a big lead belly fan. I just wanted some advice, about anything really, six or twelve strings. what type is a good twelve string guitar that is a decent price? And I thought maybe you just tune a twelve string like a six, except make every other string an octave. Anyway, all honor to the masters. any help would be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,mikee
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 11:28 PM

I want to play stairway to heaven on my double neck but i cant figure out how to tune it, nothing sounds right.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,Kevin, Edinburgh
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 11:05 AM

I saw all the stuff about tuning 12 strings and the use of capos. I've ben playing 12-string about 25 years now - my guitar is an Epiphone Nova 245. It works at concert pitch with light gauge strings and also when detuned a tone with slightly heavier 5th and 6ths. I sing and also accompany a lot of singers and the capo is essential - someone will always want it 'up a bit' at the last minute. With the thicker strings I use 2 (!) Shubb capos to hold the strings down firmly and get a clear tone.
Important: a capo will almost always put the octave (thinner) strings on the 4th 5th and 6th strings out of tune slightly - its stretching them a fraction more than the thicker bass strings. Its probably just a quarter turn on the machinehead but it needs doing! The thicker the strings and the higher the action of the guitar the more you need to do it. Cheap or badly set up guitars also go 'out of tune' as you go higher up the neck because of the extra tension to hold the string down. If you're checking out a guitar in a shop, try playing the e minor chord using the 5th string at the 7th fret and the 4th string at the 9th fret with all the other strings open and see if all sounds in tune!
Hope this is all helpful - Happy Playing


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:44 PM

Well, I'm plumb sorry to be the one to tell ya, Guesty-me-lad, but it just ain't so. There.

A


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 08:38 PM

12-string guitars suck! There - I said it.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,blamin
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 03:42 AM

No mention on this thread of "bellying". If the action is getting high, it's much more likely to be the bridge lifting (with a section of the body bulging upwards) under string tension. 12 strings are especially vulnerable.

I bought an old Framus with this problem and, once fixed, it's absoluteley brilliant (as opposed to unplayable). Within a month I've been also given an "unplayable" EKO Ranger and a Yamaha. I've fixed the EKO and have just taken the stings off the Yamaha to start work. (These are just from people I've come across and started talking guitars and so I suspect that there are thousands like them about - or maybe it's the Cornish (England) climate)

Two studio musicians played with the Framus and the Eko and were delighted with them.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: freightdawg
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 11:12 PM

Have enjoyed reading all the comments on the 12 strings. I am currently having one built by Pimentel's in Alb. NM. I discussed this question with the luthier building my 12 string and he agreed that any well made guitar should hold the standard concert tuning, but that the possibility (note: not probability) of the neck warping and other problems does increase due to the extra tension. A lot of variables could enter here: what is the relative humidity where you live? Do you keep your instrument in a case or out? Do you play outdoors a lot? I think sun and humidity could have more effect on a good instrument than string tension Thus some 20 and 30 year old instruments are in mint condition and some are destined for the great kindlin pile in the sky. He recommended for me to lower the pitch and capo as necessary. For lower pitched voices the lower pitch is a benefit. This is one of the really cool things about a 12 string - the options are considerable and some really creative playing can be done.

One more comment about capos - two of my favorite inspirations on the 12 string - Paul Stookey and John Denver - both used capos. I reckon unless and until I can outplay them (not likely) using a capo is okay.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Eckerd
Date: 07 Aug 03 - 02:16 PM

hey i need a twelve string but i was wondering if those gibson d-25 and d-45 are any weaker cause the neck meets the body around the fourteenth fret; cuz i wiil be using heavier strings for a Lowere leadbellyesque type tuning; or does lees tension on strings make this reservation negligible.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM

Regarding your query on twelve string guitars. My very good friend Johnny Joyce ( king of the 12 string) always used to tune his down. The E string does down to C then follow on from there. John plays both Guild and Stella's. He used to do this to play the Leadbelly repertoire. ( Leadbelly's was tuned the same)
Hope that helps a bit.
    Pete.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: banjoman
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 06:13 AM

I currently own a Washburn and find it probably the best 12 string I have ever played, including my old Stella and various Japanese rubbish. I use a Kyser 12 string Capo and keep the guitar tuned to standard. The action is remarkably low and very easy on the fingers. I use it also for playing in Church, where depite the lack of PA its volume is sufficient to fill the building. Its also used in the band when the others can persuade me to put the banjo down, and the effects which can be produced with the built in electric bits are amazing.
However, I usually warn beginers off buying a 12string as I feel its a specialized instrument best played by an experienced guitarist and than for specific songs or band pieces. Great thread - good to see some sanity creeping in to mudcat after trying to skin my garden hedgehog to make a banjo head skin.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,william.lilliott@agedwards.com
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

DGCFAD SEEMS TO BUZZ TOO MUCH ON A MARTIN D12-28. THIS IS A 1972 MODEL AND TOTALLY AS NEW CONDITION.WOULD D# TRANSPOSITION OF THE STRINGS USING MARTIN MARQUIS EXTRA LITES DO THE TRICK?


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 03:10 PM

Alan, want a Gibson 12, try the Elderly music site,vintage & used, then click on 12 strings and scroll down. I tried to make clicky of it, but it wouldn't let me I have a 60s Epiphone Serenader FT208, a small bodied 12 string which I've always strung in concert, and I used La Bella strings for years, I now use Martin strings, but only 'cos I can't get the La Bellas.
Failte.....Giok


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: 53
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM

I have never owned one, and the reason I guess is that they're to hard for me to play. Of all the ones I have tried I have never found one good enough for me to lay out some bucks for. I have 4 acoustics and I think that they'll do me for awhile.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,guitguy
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:36 AM

Martin D12-35's and D12-18/28's are braced heavier than the standard 6-string Martin D's. The Gibson D's have 'double-X' bracing and it's slightly heavier than the 6's of the same vintage. The B12-25's, while not 'double-Xed' have heavier bracing than the standard B25 6-string. Speaking of Bob Gibson there's a story of him tuning his guitar for an entire set without playing a song. Legend has it after hilarious observations, caustic remarks and general social commentary, at the end of the set he finally got his guitar in tune, strummed a C chord and left the stage to a standing ovation. Is this story true? I heard it years ago and always wondered.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:03 AM

to John W. : It doesn't make any difference where the neck joins the body-- whether it be 12th fret or 14th fret-- the scale length is measured from the nut to the bridge saddle-- Ledbelly's 12 string had a 26(plus) inch scale length


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Songster Bob
Date: 17 May 01 - 05:26 PM

I've had a few 12-strings over the years, but no "high-end" ones (think I'll go looking for an Appolonio if I get serious about this). Older ones did indeed suffer if tuned to concert pitch, but I want that Leadbelly BOOM instead of the Joni Mitchell twinkle (I almost wrote "tinkle" but decided it could be misconstrued), so even if/when I get a good 'un, I'll tune it down and use medium strings. Michael Cooney, for instance, not only tuned low and used heavier strings, seeking the Ledbetter sound, but has even used a clamp at the bridge to ensure good string-to-saddle contact when using a tailpiece-equipped guitar.

The old Stellas were made by the Oscar Schmidt Co. of autoharp fame, and were of better quality than the Stella by Harmony ones, which were basic music boxes for sure. That allowed, though, you can get good sounds out of even a Harmony Stella 12-stringer if you set it up right.

The poster who wondered about getting his guitar neck straightened should know that anything is possible, but sometimes it ain't worth the trouble. If it's an old high-grade guitar, or a collector's piece, like an Oscar Schmidt Stella, then, yes, I'd do it. Seek out a good repairman and be ready to spend $250. If it's a $250 guitar on the used market, I'd replace it. If it's a Framus, I'd set it down and back away slowly.

As for harmonicas, cross-harp is in the key of the 5th note of the harmonica's key (C harps play G blues, etc.), OR, from the song's perspective, the harp is in the key of the 4th note in the song (G blues requires C harps, etc.). If you forget which starting point you're using, harp or song, you'll get some really weird-scale blues.

Bob C.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,Rick Neeley
Date: 16 May 01 - 11:56 PM

Bob Gibson played a Vega 12 string (probably due to contract stipulations for endoresment of "Vega" instruments.) These guitars used the same body as the Harmony Sovereign dreadnaught. No doubt braced differently with a fixed bridge. From the late 60's to ythe end of his career Gibson played 12 string guitars built by Bozo Podunavac, of Chicago, California and of late Florida. Gibson strung his guitar with D'ANGELICO medium gauge strings. These employ a wound octave A string for a really solid bass. Gibson tuned to D and capoed at the second fret.

If anyone knows any more about the Vega 12 strings I'd like to know.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,ban-jo@msn .com
Date: 16 May 01 - 11:49 PM


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 02:53 PM

I have a 1969 Yamaha FG 12 string in which my neck bowed in 1970. I had a heck of a time finding someone who could fix the bowed neck. I was told later that the instrument should have been tuned down 1 step and capoed. I think that if I would have changed to lighter guage strings and tuned down the strings when I was not going to play for a while this might not have happened. What kills me was that at that time I could have spent $200 more and got a Martin.


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Lanfranc
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 08:26 AM

My Washburn EA20-12 is built like a brick sh**house, but it has the lowest and easiest action of any 12 I have ever played, combined with a neck of decent width. Using Gibson lights (10 thou first, 8 thou 3rd octave) it keeps its tune in E once bedded in and even permits tuning down to D if required. I use a Terry Gould or a Heriba capo, when necessary, and don't have any intonation or tuning problems.

And, unusually for a Washburn EA (Festival Series) in my experience, it works well as an accoustic.

I've owned and played 12-strings for almost 40 years, and this one is the best so far IMHO. Perhaps I'm just lucky.

But if my friend Rick ever wanted to sell his 1963 Gibson B45-12 ....


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: GUEST,terry wrisley
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 12:42 AM

There is another way to look at this: it is a different instrument. I tune mine to D and play the song. I am fortunate enough to play with some guys who are able to put up with my lunacy and it all works out. Leo Kottke says he uses heavy gauge strings when he tunes to C#. I have been doing this stuff since I first saw Bob Gibson in 1961. He played a Vega which he constantly had to tune. He called it bad names. Anyway Rick Neely says he used D'Addario mediums. I have a Gibson j185 12 currently as well as a Banzer. The latter has a redwood top and will not stand even medium gauge strings. I use Elixir light gauge strings on the Gibson.I use a Fishman rare earth magnetic pickup. That helps me tune. I tend to use harmonics to tune. Electric tuners are great but they tend to erase my ear. In a pinch, fine. I use a shubb capo when necessary. No, it is not perfect but life is full of things I don't like. Thanks, Terry


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Iguanaguy
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 08:51 AM

HI All, Well, after reading several replies & going thru some of the suggested threads...I am going to try several things; first, try some lighter-gauge strings(any recomendations as to brand names?) second, see if I can lower the bridge some(the action is VERY stiff, really hard to bar chords... On an offside note, I have an all-black Washburn 6-string that is an absolute dream to play..soft action, great resonance...but it also has a slight tuning problem in that when I tune it without using a capo then put on the capo on the second fret(where I normally use it, to be in tune with my/my group's voices) I have to re-tune again...maybe I could tune it up to where I don't need the capo...?

mark V. 8:)


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Bedubya
Date: 21 Mar 01 - 05:08 PM

During a typical practice-noodling-meditation session with my 12-string I will go through a couple of open tunings in addition to standard. I always try to put it away tuned to a lower-than-standard tuning like open G. It's probably not necessary, but it can't hurt. And I'm probably going to want to do some open-tuned stuff first when I pull it out again.

As for capos, I'm currently using one of those over-priced rolling capos that a guy at the music store talked me into buying (I think he was getting a kickback from the manufacturer). It actually works pretty well. It's good points are: 1) It's wide enough to go to the 9th fret of a 12 with no problem. 2) The tension is provided by two springs, one on the bass side and one on the treble, instead of pinching from treble to bass. 3) It's the only capo I've ever found that you can actually leave on at the nut of a guitar with a "dart" (like a D-28) when not in use. On the downside: 1) The springs are pretty strong and one that was allowed to snap back could hurt a finger or a guitar neck. 2) Since it has a roller instead of just a rubber pad, it is more difficult to do a mod to keep the 10th and 12th strings fom buzzing. If you'v never seen one of these things there's a photo at FRETS.COM (Go to the index page and then scroll down to accessories. The photo's on page 2 of the capo section.)

Cheers

bwl


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Mar 01 - 03:27 PM

My Yamaha FG260 12-string is now 30 years old, and I've never had any trouble keeping it in 'concert'.

I worked on it when it was new (the day I bought it!) - a bone nut, re-tensioned truss rod, and I planed some wood off the top of the bridge so I could lower the bridge insert. A bit drastic, but it worked really well.

These days I use Kaman 1717 strings, and it really sings.

Phil (Mudcat name FOG - Friend of Gnome) has a similar instrument which he bought secondhand recently, and it's a shed in comparison... but it will be fine with a bit of work!!


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: texastoolman
Date: 21 Mar 01 - 01:20 PM

i have a taylor 12-string and tune it to pitch no trouble so far and i've had it for about 7 years now i don't do all the recomended things for it like humidifiers and such but it's held together pretty well so far i think the quality of the instument has a great deal to do with it


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Subject: RE: TWELVE-STRING GUITARS
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:31 AM

Hi Mark........There are a number of things that can cause your problem, but often its a matter of using a "B" compessated saddle. Here's what you do.......Go read THIS THREAD and follow the links in it too and I think you'll have a good understanding of the problem and the fixes for it.

Spaw


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