Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,JS Date: 21 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM I like and would recommend the improved A & B settings as suggested above (26 Mar). It has tripped me up a time or two in the past and this makes the intent of the lyrics much clearer. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,Dave Date: 27 Mar 15 - 09:59 AM Kingsfold, which is Vaughan Williams' arrangement of this tune (not Holst's as someone above seemed to be saying) is used as a tune for at least 53 hymns, the two most popular being "O sing a song of Bethlehem" and "I heard the voice of Jesus say". Its use as a hymn tune goes back to 1906, so probably predates "Star of the County Down" (but definitely not Gilderoy, and probably not Maria Marten). Vaughan Williams got it from Broadwood and Maitland, as others have said, but knowing his conventions he would probably have done so after first hearing it sung in a pub in the village of Kingsfold, Sussex. His "Five Variants..." were composed much later. http://www.hymnary.org/tune/kingsfold_english |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Tradsinger Date: 27 Mar 15 - 05:17 AM If you want to hear a version from a source singer, here is Emily Bishop of Bromsberrow Heath. http://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C0604X0098XX-0001V0 She sings the song at about 47min 20 sec into this recording. And she pronounces it "Divers" - just to add to the debate! Tradsinger. |
Subject: DT Correction: Dives & Lazarus From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Mar 15 - 02:58 PM I don't think your perception is quite correct, Darowyn. It's my understanding that "Lazarus" (Greek "Lazaros") is a Latinization of the Hebrew "Eleazar," which means "God is my help." The beggar Lazarus, who was covered with sores and was quite possibly a leper, later came to be regarded as the patron saint of lepers. The association with leprosy comes from this story, but does not pre-date this story. Note that the beggar Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is a character in a parable. Lazarus of Bethany (Gospel of John, Chapter 11), brother of Martha and Mary, was the one who was raised from the dead. -Joe- I'm working on the lyrics of "Dives and Lazarus," and the lyrics I was given to start with were the ones from the Digital Tradition. To my mind, the DT's coupling of couplets into four-line verses is unfortunate. The usual tune is identified in hymnals as "Kingsfold" (I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say). On most recordings I've listened to, the "B" part of the melody is used on the "answer" verses ("Thou art none of my brothers" and "Rise up, rise up.") The other verses generally get the "A" part of the melody. DIVERS AND LAZARUS (DT Version) As it fell out upon one day rich Divers made a feast And he invited all his friends and gentry of the best The Lazarus laid him down and down and down at Divers door "Some meat, some drink, brother Divers, to bestow upon the poor" "Thou are non of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my door No meat nor drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor." Then Lazarus laid him down and down and down at Divers' gate "Some meat, some drink, brother Divers, for Jesus Christ's sake" "Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my gate No meat nor drink will I give thee for Jesus Christ's sake" The Divers sent out out two merry men to whip poor Lazarus away They had no power to strike at all but threw their whips away "Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, That lies begging at my wall No meat nor drink will I give thee, but with hunger, starve you shall" Then Divers sent out two hungry dogs to bite him as he lay They had no power to bite at all, but licked his sores away As it fell our upon one day, poor Lazarus sickened and died There came two angels out of Heaven, his soul therein to guide "Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus, and come along with me For there's a place prepared in Heaven to sit on an angel's knee" As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers sickened and died There came two serpents out of hell, his soul therein to guide "Rise up, rise up, brother Divers, and come along with me For there's a place prepared in Hell, from which thou canst not flee" Then Divers looked up with his eyes and saw poor Lazarus blessed "Give me one drop of water," he said, "To quench my flaming thirst Had I as many years to live, as there are blades of grass Then I would find some peace secure, and the devil would have no part." Child #56 @religion filename[ DIVRSLAZ TUNE FILE: DIVRSLAZ CLICK TO PLAY TUNE FILE: STARDOWN CLICK TO PLAY recorded by Roberts and Barrand on Nowell Sing We Clear SOF This is what I've come up with for submission to Rise Again. What think ye? Dives & Lazarus [AAB] As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers made a feast And he invited all his friends & gentry of the best Lazarus laid him down & down, & down at Divers’ door “Some meat, some drink, Bro. Diverus, do bestow upon the poor” “Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my door No meat nor drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor” [AB] Then Lazarus laid him down & down, & down at Divers’ gate “Some meat, some drink, Bro. Diverus, for Jesus Christ, his sake” “Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my gate No meat nor drink will I give thee for Jesus Christ, his sake” [AA] Then Divers sent out his merry men to whip poor Lazarus away They’d not the power to strike one stroke, but flung their whips away Then Divers sent out his hungry dogs to bite him as he lay They had no power to bite at all, but licked his sores away [AB] As it fell out upon one day, poor Lazarus sickened & died There came 2 angels out of Heaven, his soul therein to guide “Rise up, rise up, Bro. Lazarus & come along with me For there's a place prepared in Heaven to sit on an angel's knee” [AB] As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers sickened & died There came 2 serpents out of hell, his soul therein to guide “Rise up, rise up, Bro. Diverus & come with us to see A dismal place prepared in Hell, from which thou canst not flee” [AB] Then Divers looked up with his eyes & saw poor Lazarus blessed “Give me one drop of water, Bro. Lazarus, to quench my flaming thirst O, was I now but alive again the space of one half hour! O, that I had my peace again, then the devil should have no power.” trad. (English, Child ballad #56) Tune is the same as “Star of the County Down”. In Oxford Bk of Carols |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Darowyn Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM Although there seem to be plenty of people who know that Dives means 'rich', nobody yet has picked up that Lazarus is also an adjective prior to being taken as a personal name. "Dives atque lazarus' could be translated as "The Rich Man and the Leper" I don't know enough Hebrew to know if the same is true of Eleazer, though it would not surprise me, since there is a trace of the same word root there. Cheers Dave |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM In fact similarity of this tune to Star of County Down has oft been noted. Following e.g. from OP of an old thread~~ ···Subject: Star of the County Down From: Paul Stamler - PM Date: 18 Feb 98 - 02:41 AM Hey, folks: How many songs do you know that use the tune "Star of the County Down", aka "Dives and Lazarus"?··· There are also frequent refs which can be found by googling the two titles together in the Roud Index e.g. ~~ ···Dives and Lazarus (Roud 477; Child 56) 24 Feb 2011 ... The tune is related to the Irish air of Star of the County Down··· and in sleevenotes by Bert Lloyd. ~M~ shall refresh that old thread to show how many other songs share this air. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas Date: 13 Jun 11 - 07:54 AM This thread popped up, and I was interested in it... then I was surprised to see that it had been me who originally created it. Thanks again to all who contributed ... Really intriguing and useful. Just what Mudcat does best Regards Steven |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: MGM·Lion Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM Pedantically ~~ the Broadwood & Fuller Maitland book is actually English County [not 'Country] Songs. Of course it's the Star Of County Down tune ~~ surely Cathal Garvey will have been well aware of that when he wrote his famous song so memorably covered by the great Count John McCormack. ~M~ |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Will Fly Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM Thanks for that info, Jim. I did a recording of "Lazarus" from the score in Broadwood and Maitland, and it's interesting to hear the differences in the melodies and harmonic backgrounds between that and the "Star of the County Down". "Lazarus" is actually quite a melancholy and thoughtful tune, while the "Star" is usually taken at a rollicking pace - two different slants to the same basic melody. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Jim McLean Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM It has been mentioned that the melody used for Dives and Lazarus, LAZARUS from English Country Songs by Lucy Broadwood and Maitland, 1893, is also The Star of the County Down. I did some research on the tune family Lazarus, which has already been pointed out, includes the very old Gilderoy. The oldest variants of the tune I found were a Gregorian chant, En Gaudeat, 12th Century, a Latin Carol called Congaudeat, 1582 which takes us to Gilderoy then Lucy Broadwood's Lazarus and finally The Star of the County Down. This is of course a quick summary . |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,Meg Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM can anyone tell me why Michael Raven left out the last verse of this Ballad in his "Songs from Ross workhouse? I would like to be able to introduce itwith a little history history at a concert next week but have not been able to explain why he leaves it out (He doesn't include the chorus either.) |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM Oh, the dives he visited- |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Gurney Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM So, the conclusion is, everyone has an opinion, opinions are all different, it doesn't matter, no-one knows, various authorities are also out-of-date, and we have to be guided by some-one dead who pronounced 'Ralph' as 'Rafe.' (In the English manner.) Very edifying! :-) I'll go go on singing it my own way, rhyming with 'hives.' |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,Bedinog Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:38 PM he voice of Ralph Vaughan Williams is heard on the Tony Parker film documentary about his life, and RVW specifically days 'Die-vees' when referring to his music. I think the composer knows what he's calling his own music irrespective of the scholarly views, and he did attend an 'Oxbridge' college- Trinity College, Cambridge. |
Subject: ADD Version: Dives and Lazarus From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:15 AM I was looking for a version of Dives and Lazarus with a chorus, and couldn't find one at Mudcat. I DID find a pretty good one at http://www.anglocatholicsocialism.org/singing.html, but I'm still looking for others. The tune, of course, is Kingsfold (Star of the County Down). Any other versions with choruses? -Joe- Here's the version from anglocatholicsocialism.org (love that URL): Dives and Lazarus
As it fell out upon one day, |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,MtheGM Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:22 PM Surprised that none of all you classically educated has pointed out that the reason Latin V was taken in "Reformed Pronunciation" to be pronounced like our W is that it was just a conventional way of writing our U: so that "Claudius" on an inscription would appear as "Clavdivs"; so before a vowel it would be pronounced as W. Hence some people's theory that "Dee-wayz" would have been correct for "Dives". But that theory is of early 20C origin — A P Herbert had some sarcastic things to say about it in the 1930s; so is unlikely to have appealed to source singers of 18-19C. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Gweltas Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:42 PM In my 5 years of Latin study in a convent school in Ireland we were taught to pronounce Dives as "DEE-ves" |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,CC Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:30 PM As an Oxford educated Anglo-catholic priest I always rather thought the convention was 'dee-wes' but I guess we'll never know entirely. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,guest Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:19 AM Does anybody have the chords to the above song as song by Martin Simpson? Be great if we could all play it. guest, palmer |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 May 02 - 12:53 PM Scabby Doug, another song from the Apocrypha is The Cherry Tree Carol, from I believe False Mark. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 May 02 - 12:32 PM F.J. Child had this to say on the subject: "The subject could not escape the popular muse: e.g. Socard, Nöels et Cantiques imprimés à Troyes, Histoire de Lazare et du Mauvais Riche, p. 118 ff; 'El mal rico', Milá, Romancerillo, p. 16, No. 16, A-F; 'Lazarus', Des Dülkener Fiedlers Liederbuch, p. 53, No. 63; 'Lazare a bohatec,' Sušil, Moravské Národní Písne;, p. 19, No. 18, Wenzig, Bibliothek Slavischer Poesien, p. 114; Bezsonof, Kalyeki Perekhozhie, I, 43-47, Nos. 19-27. There is a very beautiful ballad, in which the Madonna takes the place of Lazarus, in Roadside Songs of Tuscany, Francesca Alexander and John Ruskin, 'La Madonna e il Riccone,' p. 82." These are not relatives, as such, of our Dives and Lazarus, but different songs on the same subject. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Scabby Douglas Date: 10 May 02 - 12:11 PM I believe that the existence of the English song comes directly from the Bible or the Apocrypha, as do some other songs, notably "The Bitter Withy" and "The Well Below The Valley" I'd also be intrigued to hear about versions of this or other songs in other languages...
Cheers
Steven
|
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 May 02 - 11:40 AM It would be interesting to know how this old tale from the Alexandrian Jews (and originally(?) the Egyptians worked its way down through time. Are there any any Sephardic or other Jewish songs with this tale that predate the English versions? |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Ringer Date: 10 May 02 - 10:50 AM If you look at Luke 16, you see that Dives & Lazarus is basically 2 parables: first "The poor go to heaven, the heedless rich go to hell" (I simplify) and second: "The (Jewish) law is enough; it doesn't need the dead to be raised to life to confirm it." The version sung occasionally at a session I attend is basically Child-56B as given by Joe above, but with 2 extra verses which roughly correspond to the second parable: Then Dives laid him down and down, even down in Hell's deep pit. "Then go, I pray, Brother Lazerus, unto my brothers seven Anyone else come across them? |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,Pied Piper Date: 10 May 02 - 10:26 AM "the whole symphony, by von Williams, was built around the old song, "Star of the County Down", which appears in a slow majestic theme throughout."Sorry Claymore the tune was stolen by the Irish you can find the English original in Bronson.All the best PP |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 10 May 02 - 09:10 AM Thanks, Herga, I would have remembered eventually, but much too late to add it to this thread, and everyone interested would have already found it somewhere else by then! One thing not mentioned is that Lazarus' name was/is much more common in its Hebrew form, Eleazer. Lazarus was/is the Latin form, and not many were named such, but there were plenty of Eleazer's, at least into the late 19th c. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: IanC Date: 10 May 02 - 07:40 AM As usual, my memory for dates is a bit vague ... resulting in a simplistic and slightly inaccurate post. Here's the info. re; the Stationer's Company (compressed from various sources). In 1534, Henry VIII granted letters patent to the Chancellor of the University of Cambridge to appoint three printers who, within the University, could print and publish any books of which the Chancellor and three doctors approved. This is a very early example of a licence being granted to one or more persons to determine whether works were fit to print and, further, to be able to print them. After some time the King realised that there was the possibility of making money out of the printing process if an appropriate monopoly was put in place. Thus, in 1547 Edward VI granted a monopoly to the King's printer over a number of specific categories of material. The monopoly was granted over Acts of Parliament, books of the rights and services of the resettled Church of England, Bibles and testaments, law books and year books, almanacks, educational works and Latin grammars. This monopoly in favour of the King himself was, some years later, followed by what we might call an industry self regulation scheme if it was established today. In 1557 the Stationer's Company was established by royal charter (it had originally been a book trade guild formed in 1403 by the association of scriveners, limners, bookbinders and stationers), and this charter was confirmed in the first year of Elizabeth's reign (1558). In 1566 an ordinance was passed by the Star Chamber for the censorship of the press. The effect of the Stationer's Company charter and the ordinance of the Star Chamber was that the Stationer's Company was given a monopoly over printing and broad powers to enforce it. For example, the ordinance of the Star Chamber prohibited any person from printing any book against the force and meaning of any ordinance, law, injunction or letters patent and the Stationer's Company was authorised to enter onto premises and inspect a printer's printing operations to ensure compliance with these regulations as well as to act as customs officials to intercept trade in books. This is quite important because The Stationers Company register is often the source of earliest dates for many songs and, later, becomes useful for establishing first printings. As a note of caution, though, it's worth reading this thread about song forgeries.
:-) |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: IanC Date: 10 May 02 - 04:57 AM Just a small bit of extra information. Elizabeth I, in a wish to control the printing of books and pamphlets (there had been no systematic censorship till then) passed an act (1558 I think) that everything printed in England which was not printed by Oxford or Cambridge Universities was to be licensed by The Stationers Company in London. The fee for the licence of a book was 2d, Ballets and pamphlets were rather less, I think. In the Register of the Company of Stationers July 1557-July 1558 (written up in July 1558) is an entry of payment for licence to print the "Ballet of the Ryche Man and Poore Lazarus". This is probably Dives and Lazarus.
Cheers! |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Scabby Douglas Date: 10 May 02 - 04:37 AM Wellll!!!............ I logged back in this morning, thinking I'd find one or 2 follow-up posts to my original question... little did I know. A real big "Thank you" to everyone who has added their weight to the discussion. My original feeling was that,like some other contributors have said, the traditional English/British way with Latin names or words is to slaughter them without mercy. So I'll probably go with Die-ves. But who knows.. Thanks again for all the other info.. Now all I have to do is to start learning it and singing it..
Cheers
Steven |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Herga Kitty Date: 10 May 02 - 02:29 AM For Bill Kennedy's benefit, the third member of the Young Tradition was Royston Wood. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 May 02 - 10:31 PM I see that Joe has added to his earlier post since I provided the provenance for Child 56A. I suppose I'd better do likewise for version B. This is titled Diverus and Lazarus, and is described as "From memory, as sung by carol-singers at Christmas, in Worcestershire, at Hagley and Hartlebury, 1829-39; F.S.L., in Note and Queries, Fourth Series, III, [page] 76."
This was the edition of January 1869; the page in question can be seen online at The Internet Library of Early Journals:
A Worcestershire Carol (1)
"F.S.L.", who called the song A Carol of Diverus and Lazarus, commented:
"I forward a copy, from memory, of one of our Worcestershire ballads. This is a carol, or was sung for one, and every village child knew it thirty to forty years ago. I once saw it (about 1833) on a hawker's broadsheet, but have never seen it since; and of late years the clergy have been discouraging carol-singing of this kind..." |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 09:58 PM Erasmus, writing during the renaissance in the early 16th C, was following rules of grammar and composition that were becoming formalized into the modern Latin language used by scholars and scientists during the 17th C and later. New species of plants still must have a Latin diagnosis. The changes in Latin at that time certainly made it easier for botanists to deal with their discoveries. The diagnoses now are becoming skeletal as Latin in dropped from most curricula. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: wysiwyg Date: 09 May 02 - 09:47 PM Here is Hardiman's view.... ~S~ ========================================== Hi everyone, What a great thread: any of the suggested pronounciations of "Dives" is OK, but I've usually heard "Die-vees." However you pronounce it, the name is not a proper name found in the Bible. It comes from the Latin, meaning riches---preachers have used "Dives" 'cause it is easier than saying "the rich bastard." :-)
The name Dives has been traditionally used to refer to two presumably distinct individuals from the Bible: Now, Lazarus-- the poor man named Lazarus in Luke 16 is not the same as the Lazarus of John's Gospel. The Lazarus of John 11 was the brother of Mary and Martha, whom Jesus raised from the dead. Lazarus was apparently a common name! No Dives, two Lazaruses, and here's a mind bender: the name of the penitent thief, crucified with Jesus: also not named in the Bible, but traditionally called St. Dismas. (Just in case you are passing a Saint Dismas hospital somewhere.) cheers, Hardiman the Fiddler |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 09:35 PM I myself don't speak in "polished literary prose", even in English, and I don't even think many polished literary people do.
The thing with Latin it was spoken by all kinds of people across the whole contnent as a second language - rather like English is in most of the places it's spoken. I don't imagine they all spoke it the same way.
|
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 May 02 - 09:08 PM I was replying to McGrath's post rather than yours, but the vulgar is not entirely lost. Beside my point about the v/w pronounciation being established by reference to puns (and therefore reflecting common rather than literary practice), there are plenty of Latin graffiti of the period that demonstrate demotic usage, those preserved at Pompeii and Herculaneum (mainly in brothels, if I recall correctly) being particularly amusing, if brief. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 08:48 PM You are right, of course, we were taught only literary written Latin. The vulgar is gone. Poorly expressed, my point was that if some scribbles did turn up, we would have a hell of a time trying to put meaning to them. We have odes by well-known Roman writers, some based on folk tales, but no language, poetry or tales directly from the common people of the time. We have only a word or two of the slang of the day and no knowledge of the allusions that were common. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 May 02 - 08:39 PM Pronounciation would be pretty useful if you had wanted to speak it! Classical Latin, as taught, is based on what are considered the "best" exponents of the written language ( Cicero for prose in particular), so it bears the same kind of relationship to (putative) spoken Latin of the same period as polished literary prose of the present day does to the current demotic. Having said that, the main reason why medieval Latin is easier to understand is probably because the word-order and vocabulary more closely resemble the usage in modern European languages. I found Erasmus far easier to translate than Cicero, for example; and a damn sight more entertaining, if it comes to that. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 07:59 PM "We are fortunate in that most of the old, classical period Latin that has been preserved is not vulgar"
Well, I call that unfortunate. I don't mean that less of the literary stuff should have been preserved, but it's be great to have the vulgar stuff that the ordinary people spoke as well. The stuff that the Roman equivalents of the kind of people who made the songs we like singing would have used. The kind of stuff our own equivalents in Roman times would have spoken to each other in.
I always rather resent the years I spent learning Latin, and I never was able to speak it, and one reason for that is, I'm pretty sure, that the Latin they taught us - leaving aside the pronunciation, which isn't that important - wasn't what people used for talking at all. I think they'd have done much better to give us, as a foundation, the corrupted late Latin that it's possible to actually speak in. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 07:56 PM Don't see my error: http://courses.nmu.edu/bl425gl/stu-not-2000/ma-lk16_19-31.htm. Or type Jeremias into Google and select Catholic Encyclopedia. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 07:49 PM Error: Not Jeremias, but the writer of the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia, stated that the story would be familiar to Jesus and the Pharisees. See: Rich Man |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 07:39 PM I couldn't help wondering where the tale came from, and got a partial answer from the Catholic Encyclopaedia. Jeremias, a "prophet" who lived at the end of the 7th and the early part of the 6th Centuries BC, from near Jerusalem, wrote some of the story. He said it was an Egyptian Folk Tale of the journey of Si-Osiris, the son of Setme Chamois to the underworld, which concludes with the words: 'He who has been good on earth, will be blessed in the kingdom of the dead.' Alexandrian Jews brought this story to Palestine, where it became very popular as the story of the poor scholar and the rich publican Bar Ma'Jan. In a dream, the fate of these two men in the next world was seen. A few days after both men were buried the scholar was seen in gardens of paradisal beauty, watered by flowing streams. Bar Ma'Jan the publican was seen standing on the bank of a stream and trying to reach the water, but unable to do so. Both Jesus and the Pharisees would have been familiar with this folklore, according to Jeremias. The arrangement by Holst, using the tune "Kingsfold," is more pleasing to me than the Vaughn Williams arrangement. The verses and the midi are at: Dives (Holst) The Holst arrangement can be heard on the Hyperion cd "This I Have Done For My True Love," sung by the Holst Singers. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: greg stephens Date: 09 May 02 - 07:09 PM Fascinating the number of people who have opinions on the "correct" way to pronounce it. I can't help feeling that my recollection of how an old guy down a lane in Essex, living in a shack and putting condensed milk in his tea actually DID pronounce it: well, it means more to me than any theories.His name was David Francis. he had a fund of songs, he was getting on and he couldnt remember all of them very well. vaughan Williams (bless his soul) loved very deeply what he got from people like that. So do I. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Herga Kitty Date: 09 May 02 - 06:05 PM The YT certainly sang it as Die-verus (none of these finicky divas). Mc Grath should remember his 1066 and all that. After Julius Caesar pronounced that all the Britons were weeny, weedy and weaky, they lost heart and fled. Kitty |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 05:22 PM Medieval Latin causes scholars to tear at their hair. The middle European area especially spawned usages that are untranslatable and words whose meanings are questionable. Increased interest in old music and performance of old secular music means that a "best interpretation" has to be made. We are fortunate in that most of the old, classical period Latin that has been preserved is not vulgar- the common people could not write it and heaven knows what their speech was like. Of course, Academic or so-called classical Latin pronunciations are an interpretation just as those of long dead Englishmen. Malcolm, although in sciences, during the summer I filled out the school year with literature courses. One young instructor, hired from England and teaching his first year at Univ. Texas, had his problems with our pronunciation. One book we studied had a character named Sophia- which we pronounced as So-phee-ya and often shortened to So-phee. In that region, the Sophias we knew were either Spanish or from the large central Texas German settlements. He was as interested in our language as we were in his, so we had a lot of discussions that had nothing to do with the literature we were be dissecting. Of course, we only had Ma-ree-yas in classes there. But drunks picked up by the police rode to jail in the "black ma-rye-ah" Joe, thanks for posting the Child versions of Dives and Lazarus and filling that gap. A version of 56A starts out "As it fell out on a light dully day." Apparently this means a bright holiday. If I find a good, different version from the States, I will post it. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 May 02 - 04:48 PM Child 56A was taken from Joshua Sylvester's A Garland of Christmas Carols, ancient and modern, including some never before given in any collections, London, 1861. Sylvester cited "an old Birmingham broadside" as his source. Under 56A Child also cites a text in Wm. Henry Husk's Songs of the Nativity (London, 1870s), derived from "from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century", and specifies the relatively minor particulars in which it differs from the main text.
There are a number of broadside texts at Bodleian Library Broadsides, including four printed in Birmingham. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Noreen Date: 09 May 02 - 04:46 PM The Vaughan Williams piece is pronounced Die-veez too (here in the UK). Nic Jones's song on Unearthed is entitled Dives and Lazarus, but he sings about Die-verus. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 May 02 - 04:27 PM Maria Martin (Ma rye ya, usually) was commonly sung to one of the tunes that also carried some versions of Dives (and a great many more songs, the earliest known being the Scottish Gilderoy). Star of the County Down is an early 20th century composition set to the same tune.
Re the "new" Latin pronounciation: the re-assessment was based on a detailed analysis of Classical literature. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons for believing that Romans in the classical period pronounced v more-or-less as w is that there were a lot of Classical Latin puns which depended on that being the case. Medieval Latin was pronounced rather differently, of course. |
Subject: ADD: Dives and Lazarus - Child #56 A & B From: Joe Offer Date: 09 May 02 - 04:26 PM A while back, MMario e-mailed me what he said were all of the texts for all of the songs in Child. Seems appropriate to post #56 A & B here, even though they're all caps. There is one version in the Digital Tradition, Divers and Lazarus, but it's quite different. -Joe Offer- Dives and Lazarus CHILD 56A a. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 50, from an old Birmingham broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 94, from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century. 56 BFrom memory, as sung by carol-singers at Christmas, in Worcestershire, at Hagley and Hartlebury, F. S. L., in Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, III, 76. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 May 02 - 03:59 PM Joe, it depends on where Vaughan Williams went to school, where he went to church, and his own personal preference. I would guess that he pronounced it Die-ves, since I don't believe he was Oxbridge, but since he is dead, we can't ask him. Dives and Lazarus is Child # 56, so I guess we are safe in calling it traditional- but I can't find it in the DT under Dives. Child attended Harvard, so I would guess he pronounced it Die-ves. I have posted a Negro spiritual version (thread 9673) which shows in the threads. Lots of songs about low dives, however. If I enter Dives, or Dives and Lazarus, I get the Murder of Maria Martin (now is she Ma ree a or Ma rye ya? - I pick the former). Putting Lazarus in the Forum turns up "'Divers' and Lazarus" (which seems to be var. #5, Diverus and Lazarus, in Child). A spelling check is needed here. Since Vaughan Williams died in 1958, his arrangement of the old song is still probably copyrighted somewhere. |
Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 03:27 PM At school they taught us what the official classical pronunciations were, so we'd know what they were - and they always sounded bloody silly: "wayni, weedy, weaky" for "veni, vidi vici," and so forth.
But the correct way to pronounce it, of course, was the Church Latin way. After all, that was the only place where it was still a living spoken language, and that's what matters in these things.
Is there any reason to think the academic pronunciations are any closer to the way the Romans actually spoke the language? |
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