Origins: Dives and Lazarus-or vice versa(Child 56)

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:14 PM

and since Vaughan Williams couldn't even pronounce Ralph correctly, what did he do with Dives?!!

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:06 PM

actually, I think star of the county down lifted the tune from Dives and Lazarus, which goes back a ways, and I think you probably know it is Ralph (pronounced Rafe) Vaughan Williams, not to be snooty, just to be helpful

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:03 PM

just occurred to me you might want to hear it sung! June Tabor does it on Freedom and Rain, and on June Tabor and the Oyster Band; It's also on Nic Jones recently released 'Unearthed' double cd; and earlier, if you can find it, on 'Young Tradition' with Peter Bellamy, Heather Woods and ? can't remember; I'm sure others would have other suggestions for listening as well

Subject: ADD: Dives and Lazarus (English Carol)^^^
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:59 PM

Dang, Claymore, you're right. I forgot about Vaughn Williams. His arrangement of the hymn is here (click) in the CyberHymnal. How is "Dives" pronounced in THAT hymn, and how did he pronounce it for his symphonic "Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus"?
I'll betcha it's still DIE-vees, but I guess we'd better ask the UK people about that.
-Joe Offer-

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DIVES AND LAZARUS

Words: Traditional English carol, possibly from Herefordshire.

As it fell out upon one day,
Rich Divès made a feast,
And he invited all his friends,
And gentry of the best.

Then Lazarus laid him down and down
And down at Divès’ door:
“Some meat and drink, brother, Diverus,
Bestow upon the poor.”

“Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus,
That liest begging at my door;
No meat, nor drink will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”

Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
All under Divès’ wall:
“Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
For hunger starve I shall.”

“Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus,
That liest begging at my gate;
No meat, no drink will I give thee,
For Jesus Christ His sake.”

Then Divès sent out his hungry dogs,
To bite him as he lay;
They hadn’t the power to bite one bite,
But licked his sores away.

Then Divès sent to his merry men,
To worry poor Lazarus away;
They’d not the power to strike one stroke,
But flung their whips away.

As it fell out upon one day,
Poor Lazarus sickened and died;
There came two angels out of heaven,
His soul therein to guide.

“Rise up! rise up! brother Lazarus,
And go along with me;
For you’ve a place prepared in heaven,
To sit on an angel’s knee.”

As it fell out upon one day,
Rich Divès sickened and died;
There came two serpents out of hell,
His soul therein to guide.

“Rise up! rise up! brother Diverus,
And come along with me;
There is a place provided in hell
For wicked men like thee.”

Then Divès looked up with his eyes
And saw poor Lazarus blest;
“Give me one drop of water, brother Lazarus,
To quench my flaming thirst.”

“O, was I now but alive again
The space of one half hour!
O, that I had my peace again
Then the devil should have no power.”

---

(almost the same lyrics as "Divers and Lazarus" in the Digital Tradition)^^^
The two versions in Child (#56) are also very similar.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:51 PM

WYSIWYG, as noted above, Reformed Academic and English Church Latin pronunciations usually are different. The vowels are not the same, neither are the vowel combinations.
Reformed Academic a, e, i, o, u = aah, ay, ee, oh, ooh.
To go on to the combinations, oe is pronounced as in toil in Reformed Academic but generally pronounced as in bee in traditional English or church English.
Consonants vary as well; c in R.A. as adopted by classical scholars is always pronounced as in cat (centum is always Kentum, etc. Cae is ky, Caesar is pronounced Kaiser. In other words, there is a split in pronunciation.
Having worked in systematic botany and paleontology, I use Reformed Academic. I would presume your husband would not use these pronunciations since they would confuse the congregation.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:50 PM

I care not for the debate, since I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do wish to point out that the whole symphony, by von Williams, was built around the old song, "Star of the County Down", which appears in a slow majestic theme throughout.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:47 PM

My latin teacher would have had us say Dee-ways. Norma Waterson sings 'Brother Diverus', I can hear it in my head but can't remember which recording. I think it's just to help the scansion in some verses.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:45 PM

what Joe said! except HE is not pronouncing it wrong, all the English Church people are! - I also have had at least 6 years of Latin, Secondary School, College and church Latin at an earlier age, - Cassell's has it pronounced (not spelt) as 'die-ves', and it is sung 'die-vees' and to me it is 'die-vees'. Folk process can make it whatever it wants, Divarus, for example. But foreign words in use in the US, especially for town names, were picked out of books, and are hopelessly mispronounced though correctly so by their inhabitants. Kay Row, Illinois, My Lin, Ohio, (and Burr' Lin, Ohio, which was pronounced correctly at first but the pronunciation of consciously changed at the onset of the First World War, I am told), for example, you all can think of hundreds others, i'm sure

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:14 PM

I think that when you're talking biblical Latin, the "correct" pronunciation would be the one I learned in a Roman Catholic seminary, since the Roman church is the one that used Latin on a regular, day-to-day basis. We called it the "Italian" or "ecclesiastical" pronunciation of Latin, as opposed to the so-called "classical" or "academic" pronunciation taught in the UK and in upper-class schools in the U.S. I suppose you could say that Paul is right in saying that "DEE-vez" is the correct pronounciation, since that's the pronunciation used by people who actually read the Bible aloud in Latin. As Dicho says, "DEE-vez" is also approximately the correct pronunciation in the classical-academic realm.

But, as said above, "Dives" is not actually a name used in the Bible, which refers only to "a certain rich man" (which in Latin is "dives," with a lower-case "d"). "Dives," with a capital "D" is a name given by English-speaking preachers to the unnamed rich man.

When English-speaking people use Latin, they ordinarily massacre the pronunciation. The English pronunciation of Latin "scientific" names has very little relation to actual Latin pronunciation, and I think you could say the same for the way that preachers and singers pronounce "Dives." I've always heard it "DIE-vees," and I suppose that's the way it's sung.

Are there instances anybody can document when it's authentic to sing it "DEE-vees"?

I studied Latin for 6 years and I'm familiar with both the Italian and "classical" pronunciations. When I'm speaking English, I suppose I'm wrong if I try to pronounce Latin names according to correct Latin pronunciation. The "correct" way to use Latin words in English is to slaughter them like all the other English-speakers do.

So, I guess I'd have to say that the "correct" way to pronounce Dives is to pronounce it incorrectly.

Got that?

In short, I'd go for "DIE-vees", even though it's wrong.

-Joe Offer, winner of the coveted Auxilium Latinum award-

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:12 PM

"Never say die", they tell you. But in this case, always sing it. Whatever it might say in any dictionary, for the song and the tune it's pronounced Divees (or Diverus in some variants - I imagine that would have been to match Lazarus).

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:44 PM

he is unnamed, just 'a certain rich man', in Luke, but has become known as Dives, I think because by misunderstanding the meaning of the Latin noun became the Proper name. We might call it the story of Rich and Lazarus if we were rewriting it in today's idiom. And maybe come up with a name that, like Lazarus, means 'helpless', or 'helped by God', Theo---something, if we went the Greek route.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:44 PM

Husband is classically trained Episcopal clergy, currently an examining chaplain in Scripture for our Diocese, meaning that he evaluates that part of the GOE (General Ordination Examination) taken by people in our denomination after seminary to determine if they need to do further work before being ordained. Knows his stuff.

I'll ask him to post more about Dives when he gets a chance.

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:34 PM

Dives is Latin for rich, a rich man. The Reformed Academic pronunciation is Dee-ves.
The Oxford English Dictionary goes with dee-ves (Oxbridge, upper class), but average Britons are probably taught Die-ves. Church Latin in English-speaking countries mostly goes with die-ves.
Webster's Collegiate goes with Die-ves.
The first printed usage in English is in Chaucer (14th C). How it was pronounced at that time is unknown.

How it would be pronounced in Ancient Greek, Aramaic, or other Biblical-age language is unknown. We know very little about English pronunciation before the vowel shift, let alone how people talked 2000 years ago. The word "dives" would only have appeared in Latin in Biblical times.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Ringer
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:22 PM

I don't think the "certain rich man" is named in Luke's gospel, is he?

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:02 PM

it is as stated by most above die-veez, means 'wealthy', which makes sense since it's 'Lazarus at the Rich Man's (Dives) Gate'

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:00 PM

Susan,

Curious as to what you mean by:

Biblically it's Die-veez.

Does that mean it was pronounced that way in the original Greek or was said that way by early Christions?

Curious as to how you know that that is the correct pronouciation.

Peter

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:44 PM

The only time in my life I met a "source"(as opposed to revival) singer who knew this song(hecouldnt remember it but he referred to it)he pronounced it Di-vees.

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:44 PM

Biblically it's Die-veez.

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: IanC
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:36 PM

Die-Veez seems to be pretty much the standard. Some traditional singers seem to sing "Diverus" but I'm not sure where that came from. ;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:35 PM

"Dee-vez" is the correct pronounciation

Paul

Subject: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:30 PM

I've never knowingly heard this sung - I've got the tune so that's OK, and I've got loads of words so that's fine too..

My questions is:

"Dives" or "Diverus" - would that be pronounced "Dee-vez", "Dee-vess", "Die - vez", Dee-ver-uss? etc.. etc...

Anyone help?

Cheers

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Related threads:

Variants of Dives and Lazarus
Dives & Lazarus/Brigg fair etc

Steven