BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...

Subject: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM

Good news of we non-smokers. My sister (whom I called immediately after reading the news) smokes, my daughter, my son. They all smoke and msybe this little bit of news will MAKE them stop.

The funny part of all this; NJ legislature feels that this raise will help NJ to meet their budget. I don't think it will. I think it will make lots of people stop smoking.

This is my hope anyway.

Can NY be far behind?? ;-)

YEA!!! Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: GUEST,Annamill (where's my cookie)
Date: 28 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM

Oops! I forgot Starting Monday, cigs will cost 70 cents more a pack.

I gave them up when they went to $1. Long time ago.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 11:33 AM

Shame on you, annamill!!! Even though I, too, have quit; attitudes like your's are the reason the problem is never going to go away. There is strong reason to suspect that tobacco is only half the problem. At the most, only half the problem. There is a high probability the internal combustion engine and the tires on our vehicles are doing as much damage as cigarettes, perhaps more. As long as lazy people (and the AMA) continue to demonize tobacco, without looking at the whole picture, things are going to stay more or less the same. When was the last time you demanded higher EPA standards? When was the last time our Republican masters paid any attention? Don't forget. The AMA has focussed it's attention on cigarettes because it's easy, popular and politically correct. But the AMA has a long and proud history of being wrong on major issues; like salt and high blood pressure, like the eugenics movement. I think they're off base on this issue too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 11:40 AM

PS. As someone who resisted quitting until medical reasons gave me no option, I have to say that the 'dog in the manger' attitude of of anti-smoking fanatics is one of the major reasons I held on so long. When one comes to despise the group that's trying to force one to do something, the will to resist becomes very powerful. We resist you; not because you're wrong, necessarily, but because you're assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Jun 02 - 06:30 PM

Demeaning, degrading, disparaging, or vilifying of someone in order to exert authority over them, whether by punitive taxation, burning books, or by overt restriction of their activies has a clinical name. It is called sadism, and is an exceedingly popular perversion here in the Bigot Belt.

Our Kansas legislature just passed several "emergency funding" taxes, every one of which singles out an "unpopular/inferior" group for "punitive" taxation - because "they're not nice like the rest of us." And no one seems to think that's sick?

Moralistic legislation, even if it enforces a moral choice I might make, takes from me the freedom to make my own choice, and is an assault on my moral dignity. The most important freedom I can defend is the freedom of my fellows to choose things differently than I would choose, because when they no longer have that choice, I have no freedom of choice for myself.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 02:33 PM

I suspect tobacco isn't the whole problem... I suspect that the other 200+ chemicals added to cigarettes are the majority of the problem...

A deck these days here costs almost 7 bucks... and the word on the street is that it'll be closer to 9 by the fall...

The last time the Ontario government was this stupid, all they did was create a niche for smugglers... and the price was slashed to just over 3 bucks or so...

Then began the slow climb back up...

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Jun 02 - 04:41 PM

Mr Hammond, if you think your government is criminally stupid, take a look at ours here in the US. When they outlawed alcohol, creating the school the Italian and Irish gangs went to to learn large scale organized crime and undercutting much of the respect the common man had for the law, they effected Canada, too. When Prohibition became an embarassment to the government, they repealed it; and Harry J Anslinger went to Washington to ask them to please outlaw something else, so Eliot Ness's boys wouldn't be out of a job. With the example of Prohibition fresh in their minds, our glorious leaders considered what they could criminalize for Mr Anslinger. And so they chose a plant that grows wild from Argentina to Alaska. Criminal stupidity? Lethal stupidity! And it effects you, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:26 AM

In Australia, excise duty on tobacco has reached the stage where illicit tobacco is being grown and processed. When duty is nearly $AUD 250 per kilogramme, it means a ton of tobacco is worth $250,000 in duty. I don't know what the price of a packet of ciggies is, and don't care, but it would seem that the effort to reduce smoking by over-pricing tobacco could run into problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: annamill
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 09:47 AM

I PMed this to misophist:

Smoking kills you! No maybes. It doesn't say 'may cause' any more, it say 'causes lung cancer'! My fervor is not for any one else to quit but my children. If others want to continue killing themselves, I understand. I used to smoke and I know. It makes me happy as hell that they may quit. Also, other young people may never start. Now tell me you disagree with that. ********************************************************

Most people are polite in my home and either step outside or don't smoke at all, but if someone asks me if it is ok to smoke I bring out my ashtray and make them feel at home. I don't stand on street corners and spout anti-smoking slogans. I used to smoke and every now and then I have a cigarette. About twice a year I'll have one and it feels good. But I saw my Mom's second husband die of lung cancer and I don't want to put my husband, or my children thru that, so I don't smoke.

I just wish my children, and my sister, felt the same.

Because we have other problems that harm us, doesn't mean it's ok to have this one. We have a personal choice on this one. It's hard and some people will never be able to quit. I don't hate or have contempt for people who smoke. I just wish they didn't for their own selves.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 02:39 PM

Annamill asks: "Can NY be far behind??"

Huh? I heard on the local news-radio station that this latest increase in the New Jersey cigarette tax made the cost of a packet the same as New York's!

O' course, you're probably right that NY will feel compelled to jack up its cigarette tax, so as not to have NJ be even with them in anything... ;^)

But IMO this tax won't stop kids from smoking, sad to say. As long as smoking continues to be regarded as "cool" and as a symbol of rebellion, kids will continue to form the habit. One thing that angers me is the continued inclusion of images of smokers in the movies. Some big-time big-screen actors have taken a stand against it, but more have not. Recently I saw a report on TV to the effect that smoking by actors in movies is on the increase, which chilled me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:04 PM

This is becomming a tedious waste of time. Let me make a couple of points and then I'll quit for good.
Some social cures are like chemotherapy. While a little may help, a little more is fatal. Prohibition was meant to cure drunkeness. It didn't but it did give a wonderful boost to organized crime in the US. It's impossible to say enough about what a disaster the anti-drug movement has been. Thousands of lives broken, thousands cut short, and no end in sight, just so Eliot Ness could have a job. Raising the price on cigarettes is near the saturation point. And it doesn't achieve it's effect any more. Look at how many of the homeless smoke. If you're addicted (and it can be an addiction), you'll find something you can give up to buy cigarettes. Annamill says she just wants her sister and children to quit. Maybe she's lucky. Maybe her family is well off. Many aren't. But that's not HER problem. What she's really cheering is just another step along the road that will find her grandchildren thinking it only natural to buy their smokes from a bootlegger. And thinking the 5 - 10 year prison sentence when they're caught is only natural as well.
It's a waste of time trying to reason with Annamill, though. Linnear thinking is not her strong point. For example, she pm's me that the cigarette warning label now says smoking WILL cause cancer, not may cause cancer. Like all born again activists, she finds it easy to believe utter crap. There are MILLIONS of smokers, some of them heavy smokers, who will never have cancer. You probably know about a hundred, yourself. To use the example I know best; after 30+ years of heavy smoking, I will not die of cancer. That's positive. I WILL die of emphasyma in 5 or 10 years, but there's absolutly no sign of cancer. That may sound like a bad example but it still proves my point. I won't die of cancer. Others won't die of emphasyma, Millions of others won't die of either.
My original point is that at least half the problem is being ignored. When are the Annamills of the world going to do something?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:10 PM

Well said misophist,

Annamill's comments were both stupid and selfish

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: DonD
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 08:41 PM

Annamil, you're not selfish, unless caring about your family is selfish. And you're not stupid, if you were about to be insulted by a GUEST.

The libertarian attitude that says, 'let me decide if I want to kill myself, and I certainly won't dream of interfering with any one else's attempt to kill himself' is bullshit. Will the permissive libertarian calmly watch someone jump off a bridge or building or leap in front of a car or train without trying to interfere?

Of course, the suicide by car or train may be a poor example because that might inconvenience another person, not to mention the cost to us all for the recovery efforts.

But how about the cost to us all for the medical expenses of smoking. If you aren't aware that we all pay, either by subsiding public care or through increased insurance costs, you're in denial. Andof course you believe that second hand smoke dangers are just propaganda, too.

And what difference does it make whether it's cancer or emphysema or heart disease that is the cause of death, or that many people manage to escape any of them? Sure you could never smoke and get hit by a bus tomorrow; is that a logical reason to smoke.

And one more thing -- if anyone who attempted to make some improvement in the world was shot down because there were other things that needed improving too but were being neglected, none of us would have anything to say --ever!

I watched my sister die of emphysema and it wasn't pretty. She always would respond to attempts to get her to quit by saying, "so I won't live to ripe old age!" She got past seventy, but the last ten years she couldn't smoke and got no other joy out of life either. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I guess I think that those who shorten their lives (the good part) without regard for those who care about them and are going to have to care for them -- they are the selfish and stupid ones, and when I see them shivering outside office buildings in the winter because of their addiction, I feel no sympathy at all.

Rant over.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: annamill
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:03 AM

Wow! Look at the response. I had no idea there was such emotion here. ;-) According to some, we should legalize all things that hurt us. I won't even mention pot. But how about cocaine, heroin, amphetamines,etc.?

misophist, I realise you want out of this conversation, but isn't emphasyma directly caused by smoking? I seem to remember reading somewhere that you could only get emphasyma by smoking. I may be wrong.

By the way, I failed linear equations too. ;-)

Maybe I'm awfully stupid. I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm not stupid enough to continue burning all those chemicals into my body on a half-hourly basis. Bus fumes I can't help.

I would gladly give up 10 years of my life if it would stop my children and my family from smoking. That ain't no joke! It would let them live 10 years longer without coughing up blood or carrying around an oxogen(sp) tank.

If their luckiy, maybe they won't get sick. But, why take the blasted chance.

I don't think the 70 cents is going to do any good any way. So you pay $5 instead of $4.30. What's the difference. They went up yesterday and my daughter is still smoking...

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:57 AM

"My daughter is still smoking..." Hold on thar! Is this Amy, the daughter recently diagnosed with MS? If so, why in the world would she risk compounding her health problems?

And if not, then this daughter has seen through her sister's example that one can't take good health for granted, so why tempt fate?

In either case – as you say, Annamill, why take the blasted chance???

(BTW, I see by the news reports that NY wasted no time at all in jacking up its cigarette tax after NJ's action! PA's tax is up too, by 69¢.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: annamill
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM

Same daughter. Now that is stupid! You talk to her! She's not suppose to have stress and she says this helps to calm her. She quit for a while, but she went back. My son is in New Orleans and is still smoking.

I knew the other states would fall in too.

Everyone seems to feel that all this will do is fuel fire for bootleggers.

Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: Pied Piper
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:36 AM

I think you've all mist one important point. If people want to smoke (most smokers in the UK want to stop) that's fine with me, it's their right as adults. However with rights comes responsibilities; smokers do not have the right to force their smoke on other people. At a session I play at regularly the build up of smoke can be appalling. The sooner legislation is passed too control the quality of air in pubs the better, and if this pisses of the inconsiderate smokers "tuff titty". PP

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:08 PM

Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) Journal had this story this am: Man was held up by thug who demanded cigarettes. Thug Pulled out a knife & threatened to use it when the victim said he had none. The accosted man ran away and the perp was later arrested. So now it appears we have a new reason to be mugged or murdered. Us none smokers better start carrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 12:37 PM

Annamill sez: "You talk to her!" Well, okayyyy...

Hey, Amy, I don't have MS myself but I do have another autoimmune disease, lupus (SLE – systemic lupus erythematosus – which is even harder to spell than Multiple Schlerosis). I was diagnosed in my early 20's, and I'm 46 now; I've been on various medications, some more successful at treating the symptoms than others. But, just as with MS, there ain't no cure, and I've had to learn to live with it and alter my lifestyle to minimize the risk of complications. But one complication hit me anyway: I developed another autoimmune disease – sarcoidosis – after living with a smoking boyfriend for eight years.

I had never even taken up the cigarette-smoking habit myself, but I slowly developed breathing problems anyway over the course of those eight years, and was finally taken to the emergency room after a severe attack that mimicked symptoms of a heart attack. Initial tests seemed to indicate that I might have had lung cancer. After weeks of more tests (at Jefferson Hospital in Philadelphia) that included a lung biopsy, it was determined that the lumps that were seen in the x-rays and MRI's were actually nodules that were growing inside my lungs, a symptom of sarcoidosis.

The pulmonary specialist at Jefferson put me on a regimen of steroid inhalers and ordered me to avoid all chemical fumes, perfumes, and cigarette smoke (first- or second-hand). My boyfriend refused to believe that he could no longer smoke in the apartment; I had to get the doctor to write out his orders so I could have proof to show to the boyfriend. The final result of that was that less than two months later he and I broke up and I was looking for another apartment to move to.

Since then (and that was 6 years ago), I've had two more visits to the emergency room with breathing attacks, and I continue to live with and try to control the symptoms of sarcoidosis in addition to the symptoms of lupus. As part of that attempt at symptom-control, I spend most of the summer cooped up in air-conditioning instead of enjoying weekend music festivals and the like. And my enjoyment of singing has been affected because, of course, I don't have the lung capacity that I used to have.

The reason I'm telling you this is to say that I hope you'll learn from my mistake. Immune systems like yours and mine don't react properly to outside "invaders" like the chemicals that make up cigarette smoke, so in addition to the usual risks of smoking that everyone else runs, we whose bodies attack our own tissues have additional risks all our own.

And I gotta tell ya, the tests for those risks alone ain't worth it – I would not wish a lung biopsy on ANYBODY. See, first they stick the fiber-optic tube up your nose, then down your throat. gagging you as they push it past your vocal cords, then down into your lung where, even with the topical anesthesia sprayed from the tube, you can feel the tug when they pull off the biopsy tissue... while you're trying to breathe around the tube in your throat and lung... after which you cough up bits of blood for days...

So, Amy, please, quit smoking now – not "while you're ahead", exactly, but before you make things worse for yourself down the road... before the smoking triggers your immune system to go haywire in new ways. There are plenty of healthy alternatives for dealing with stress. And believe you me, the stress of dealing with a second autoimmune disease – the stress of the diagnosis, the stress of the treatment and the periodic check-up tests, the stress of living with MORE symptoms than you had with just one disease – is stress you don't need.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: annamill
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM

Sharon, I just e-mailed your post to her. I hope it helps. I would hope to see her quit, if she doesn't come and kill me first.

Thank you for that post. Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM

No problema.

Gee, I forgot to mention the stress of waiting for days for the results of that lung biopsy, not knowing if I had cancer or not... that was pretty nerve-wracking!

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 07:52 PM

I was told by 3 different doctors that my throat cancer was caused by 47 years of smoking. No question about it. I have been without a voice for 7 months; was it worth it? Ridiculous! Fact, since Maine put the money we got from the tobacco settlement to work, teen smoking has been reduced by 37%

There is a session on Friday evenings in Portsmouth NH, but, I never go. Why? because too many of the people who do go are addicted to nicotine, ans I refuse to go where the air is unfit to breathe. And, to you folks who still defend your right to die a horrible death, remember, DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN AFRICA.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: RangerSteve
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 09:17 PM

Well, on this first bad day for us NJ smokers, I didn't smoke. I still have money in my wallet (ok, so I left home with one dollar, specifically so I wouldn't have enough to by cigarettes). 5 dollars a pack is just the incentive I needed to quit. Thank you, Governor McGreevey.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 10:20 PM

Good for you Ranger Steve, I hope you can keep it up. (the resolve, I mean)

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 11:30 PM

My Dearest Darling Annamill,

Yes, I would like to ditch this. But since you ask me directly, and since I refuse to believe you're as stupid as you pretend, I'll answer.
How clever of you to know that emphysema is caused by smoking! I used that example to show that the authorative source you offered was deceitful nonsense.
The bad thing about the war on drugs is that the government cannot win it. Not won't; CAN NOT. Everyone's best guess is that things wouldn't change that much if the laws were repealed. For that matter, things were much the same before those laws were passed. Remember, they only go back to the 1930's. Before that, it was 'anything goes' but not that much went. Look at Prohibition for a model.
A word to the performers who don't like to work in smokey bars: I don't blame you. You know what to do about it. Do it.
One last thing: a phrase I'll bet you know, passive aggressive. I won't risk being misunderstood yet again. It's easy to look up, so do it yourself. But when a group or a PERSON is so beaten down or disenfranchised, so silenced, that no other form of resistance is available, sheer dumb stubbornness is often the result. Consider this and take another look at your family.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 10:01 AM

Misophist: Your accusation that Annamill has beaten down, disenfranchised, and silenced her family members is not at all in keeping with her statements: "...if someone asks me if it is ok to smoke [in the house] I bring out my ashtray and make them feel at home. I don't stand on street corners and spout anti-smoking slogans. I used to smoke and every now and then I have a cigarette." Sounds like a pretty tolerant home atmosphere to me... not the sort of environment where one would smoke just to be "stubborn" or "passive-aggressive".

Yeah, she wishes her kids and her sister wouldn't smoke so much. Why does her concern for her family's health and well-being warrant an attack from you?

You said that you resisted quitting until medical reasons gave you no option. Okay, so you were passive-aggressive. That doesn't mean that every other smoker in the world is. Some of them are listening to the health warnings about cigarettes. Some of them actually want to quit but are struggling because it's so hard to break that chemical addiction. Some of them have quit and have started up again – like Annamill's daughter – because of that addiction.

Yes, it's true that there are other carcinogens in our environment, and you're right that that problem needs to be addressed. But that doesn't mean that cigarette smoking is not a health risk as well.

As far as I'm concerned, if the government wants to hike the tax on cigarettes, that's wonderful; anything that sells fewer cigarettes and hurts the tobacco industry is fine with me. And trying to compare this tax with the Prohibition era or the "war on drugs" is comparing apples and oranges. Cigarettes haven't been outlawed; they're not contraband. They're just a convenient means of generating tax revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: DonD
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 12:58 PM

The mystical powers of the tobacco industry are a wonderful and frightening thing.

Last night I wrote a long rant about a cigarette-addicted, emphysematic neighbor who just had to ahve a smoke despite his open oxygen line and killed himself and burned my family and other neighbors out of house and home.

I was just reviewing it before posting when there was a five-second power outage which did nothing except reboot my computer and of course lose my long screed.

I'm afraid to recall more than the above brief paragraph for fear of where they might call down the lightning this time -- but I will repeat: talk about your second hand smoke.

On a maybe lighter note, when I had first quit smoking myself and become a sterotypical born-again clean lung missionary, I would tell young people that "kissing a girl who smokes is like licking out an unwashed ashtray." I always hoped the mental image might have saved at least one victim from addiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:04 PM

Sharon, I don't think misophist was attacking me. He may have been making a suggestion about how I'm working with my family. I'm not sure. But, I will tell you one thing. If he is saying that MY family is ever passive-aggressive, that will receive a resounding hahaha! No Way!

My children tell me to "shut-up Mom" when they feel I'm being a bother, and that's without hesitation or fear. I've raised them to be very independent and they will not allow even me to step on their decisions, even if they know they're wrong (like smoking).

Oh hell, this has gone on long enough. Let's have a wonderful Independence Day tomorrow. My daughter read Sharons post and she did say "Oh Ok, I'll stop"! We'll see. Thank you Sharon. Thank you for your input Misophist and I hope you are well. This has been an illuminating conversation. Kendell, I can't tell you how happy I am that we will still be able to hear you at the Getaway.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 01:11 PM

I hope I never see the day when my kids have the cheek to tell ME to shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 02:07 PM

Oh, it's said with love and respect Kendall. The point I was making is they let me know when my input is not needed. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bad News for NJ Smokers...
From: sed
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 10:46 AM

A little late to the string but: for years I wrote and sang anti-smoking songs. (about 30 songs) The first one came in 1975 just after my father died of lung cancer at age 53. It was recoded in 1977: 'How I Choke When I Smell Smoke' was one side A of the 45 rpm record and 'The Smoky Subways of Boston' was on side B. It was financed by Group Against Smokers Pollution through a gift from it's president.

The 900 or so records were played on lots of stations but what good did the songs really do? I don't sing them anymore except as a joke for friends who remember them. The fact is that complaining about smoke makes smokers nervous or angry and so they medicate themselves with their tobacco.

I used to play in smoky venues which caused lots of problems for me and for those around me. I've been attacked by smokers, boycotted by smokers, insulted by smokers and finally have become sympathetic with these addicts. I really do sympathize with them and with those who are hurt by their addictions.

I've come to believe that protest in general perpetuates the problem. Maybe a protest song is no better than what is protested. [Matthew 5: 39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:] What we resist persists. Now if I can't find fresh air I pray this way: Lord, please protect me from this foul air.