Music: Your Day Job

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:37 PM

No Art, you had it right to begin with. It's about the biz side of music, the "day job" that goes with the "night job" of singing.

~S~

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:33 PM

We had good advice from our former tax preparer once. He said that if it's at all reasonable, take the deduction. If your audited, which is highly unlikely, they may disallow it but you won't go to prison. So, that's what we've done.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:22 PM

musicmic, thanks so much for the info.  I'd be interested in the project you and Susan are working on.  One "senior market" I have not even begun to tap, really, is the adult foster home market.  One proprietor called me, unsolicited, recently, and hired me to do a 90 min. program twice a week on an ongoing basis.  Not all of them hire at all, and some pay less than she does, but a few more like that one and I could forget about the facilities that play hard to get.

Bev and Jerry, thanks for the school info.  Re taxes, though, how do you get by with writing off clothing/costumes.  The IRS rule is that if it can be worn on the street it's not a legitimate business expense, even if you allegedly bought it for your performances.  The story is told that Liberace had a tussle with the IRS over HIS costumes--until his accountant asked the IRS agent, "Come, now, would YOU wear a costume like that on the street?"  I can write off my sombrero and I could write off a silly plastic green hat for St. Pat's, but I can't write off the peasant type blouse or Mexican-style skirt or the green outfits I use for St. Pat's or a red jacket I buy for Christmas gigs.  But you're right that as a "full time musician," you can deduct (i.e., count as a Schedule C business expense) just about any goods, services, and transportation expenses that have to do with research, skill development, promotion, performance enhancement, business management, etc.  (If you buy a computer and use it partly for personal use, though, you may have to prorate the part that's used for business.)  If I buy CDs that are of the types of music I do in my work (pretty much anything but classical, rap, and hard rock), they can legitimately be called research or program development; if I buy a CD of LL Cool J or of Beethoven's Ninth, that would be a harder case to make, and I wouldn't even try.

And, Mark Cohen, if you ever do host a Mudcat gathering in Hawaii, I will make it a business trip.  I need to learn some more Hawaiian songs, learn more of the language, and learn the Hula, since I do Hawaiian theme programs at quite a few facilities.

Great story, Art!  Being realistic, I'm not a good enough guitarist or singer to be asked to open solo for the kinds of folks you have done for, though duos and trios are a different matter.  (I realize that a lot of "solo" acts use studio musician and back-up singer types for their gigs, of course.)   And my professional recordings, with overdubbing, etc., are fine, I think.  But some programs are booked mainly for the kinds of music one presents and the background info one gives on the songs, as well as rapport with the audience, and not for one's instrumental virtuosity or Carnegie-Hall calibre voice, and that's attainable.  There really is a wide range of opportunities for paid gigs for singers/instrumentalists/storytellers/songwriters at a range of skill levels.

BTW, Art, was that an "unabased" plug or an "unabashed" one?  *G*

Genie

PS, Art, Happy (belated) birthday!

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 10:57 PM

People, I just saw this thread doesn't want to know about when music is actually your day job. It wants to know about music--as opposed to your day job.

Guess I was off the mark above.

Well, as Gilda used to say, "Never mind."

Art

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 10:45 PM

Mark Clark, Thanks for saying that.

I was amazed I made it work back then 'cause I hated hustling the work. Never really did it---to the consternation of good friends like Cathy Fink who were top-notch go-getters of gigs etc. My "career"--if there is such a thing in the trad side of folkiedom, was accidental---I was in the right place at the right time. After walking out of that record store and tossing my keys in the boss's face in October of '72 Carol tells me, I walked home along Lake Michigan and announced to Carol that she was, from that moment on, not married to a folksinger who also had a day job. I told her that the music was all we were going to live on. After that, one thing just led to another. A week after that, the amazing Richard Harding called me to open for Sonny Terry and Brownie. Then For Robbie Basho. Then for Odetta, Tom Paxton, Martin Mull, Biff Rose, Martin-Bogan and Armstrong and many others over that year. I got use to paying the rent on time and when I couldn't put that together, I'd sell an instrument or two. Music was my day job---and my night job---and my wee-small-hours-of-the-morning job. It was my life--along with the family---who went along for the ride. Kicking Mule and Folk Legacy had me do two albums each for them long before we were expected to fund our own records. It made me feel like Hemingway and Thomas Wolfe---the companies came to us and asked us to record. Things are different now but I was a real lucky guy to have things work out the way they did. Then an agency asked to book all my school gigs for 22 years. Those jobs dovetailed beautifully with the 5 summer months each year for ten years I did music on steamboats---(and NOT on gambling boats 'cause I didn't want to hassle with that can of vipers.) Weekends I'd do clubs and festivals and concerts when not working other places. I could quote higher when I was already working a ton because I could. Often I didn't want to do one gig or another and then I could quote real high. Those jobs allowed me to keep on doing school shows for low prices in the center of big cities because it wasn't right to charge a ton of cash there I didn't think.

What I'm saying I guess is that when music became my day job 30 years ago, I just did anything I really wanted to do---. I waited for folks to call me and rarely hustled work. I always knew, that way, that they were interested in hearing and hiring MY music particularly. If folks offered too little money I figured they needed the cash more than I did-------so I'd offer to do a benefit show at no charge. That helped them--and it had a way of helping me too. It kept me showing folks the songs I had found on my trasure hunt---because making music, somehow, any-old-how, was the name o' the game. I was a sort of alchemist; I could sing into thin air------and come home with the rent. Pure magic. (Hope that don't offend religious folk ;-) **BIG SMILE**

Now, as Buck White and daughters once told me driving me back to Chicago after a gig at Charlotte's Web---"I ain't never had less or enjoyed it more." Then they drove back to Nashville and joined the Grand Ol' Opry.------------------ This old 50s beatnik never did need much. A few favorite books to re-read and records to play and we are all set.
Hey, Phil Cooper & Margaret Nelson & Katey Early--THANKS FOR YOUR NEW CD. It came today. Great bithday present. AN UNABASED PLUG !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: musicmick
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 08:46 PM

Good job, Bev and Jerry. Of course, it is the booking that is difficult, especially at the beginning of a career. Like any business, experience and reputation are major selling points. Those who have not yet established themselves in the school assembly market might want to invest some time doing a tour for one of the many agencies that book geographic areas, hiring performers on a salary and sending them out for weeks and months at a time. The pay is not substancial(they dont provide for expenses) but it is a good way to get your feet wet and to develope a following and a name in the business. I have not done these tours, myself(my schedule couldn't afford the time commitment) but I did have the opportunity and I have friends who have taken tours in Kansas, in Iowa and in Maryland. Their experience s were both positive and not.

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 07:58 PM

Genie:

When you play in schools, there's a lot of competition not just from other musicians but from animal acts, magicians, laser light shows, impersonators and a million other kinds of acts. Musicians usually get $200-$300 for an assembly, and a little less for successive assemblies on the same day. Total compensation for a day can be $200 to as much as $700.

We have been very successful by charging a fixed price for the entire day. We let the school schedule the day (within limits) and they can have as much as they want. We offer assembly programs, classroom programs, hands-on programs and family concerts. We charge anywhere from $435 to as much as $640 for a day, depending on how much crap we have to go through to get the gig and to get paid. We used to do 80 to 100 schools a year. You do the math. We hit the road for two or three weeks and then we're home for one to two weeks.

On the subject of income tax, the IRS allows us to get away with murder. For example, we travel in a motorhome and get to deduct per diem of about $40 per day that we sleep in it. Almost everything we do is deductible including the cost of the new computer on which we are posting this message. We can deduct mileage, repairs to our RV, phone and postage, office expenses, laundry, new equipment and maintenance, performing clothes, CDs, admission to music camps and festivals and countless other things. We even wrote off a trip to Ireland and one to England on the grounds that we spent a lot of time in pubs listening to music. These are commonly referred to as research trips and can be to nearly anywhere. As a result, we payed very little in income taxes even including the fact that, as self-employed, we had to pay twice the Social Security tax of someone who works for a company.

You're right about only playing the school once a year. But, since we were in it for the long haul, we kept very good records and knew when to contact each school. Some had us every year (and still do), some every two years, some every three years and some only one time. Like we said, it's a lot of work but the performing is usually very rewarding. And we're creating future mudcatters.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: musicmick
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 01:08 PM

As Susan said, I live in Philadelphia and I work in the Tri State area. I use agents for almost all my bookings. I also hand out business cards whenever I perform. (A colleague once told me that a job is successful if it produces another job) I find that I have a lot of repeat business. I have learned that customers, as a rule, are mostly concerned with reliability, appearence and audience response (in that order). The longer one stays in an area, the more his reputation feeds him. At this stage of my career, I can live quite well on jobs that come to me without my seeking them, but when I write a new show or start a new act (I offer a duet with an accordianist), I get back into a marketing mode and develope a market using my contacts and experience to my advantage. Susan and I are discussing a series of articles breaking down my ideas and methods, some of which may be of use to you guys. I lived in Dublin for two years, back in the late 60s, and although it took some time, I was able to establish an almost decent income just from folk clubs like Slattery's and Toner's. I wasn't there long enough to build a teaching practice but I could have if I'd had more time. I spent about nine months in Los Angeles in the early 80s and developed a small cadre of students and a wonderful contact for the Jewish market. In Israel, I overcame the language problem, working with a traveling show that featured music from the British Isles. What I am saying is there is always work for qualified musicians who seek work in a professional manner. There is a serious dearth of opportunity for those seeking stardom. If you'd like to contact me directly, I'll be glad to share what I've learned.

Mike

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM

APC, as one whose business is providing musical activities for, among others, some low-budget and non-profit facilities, I appreciate your approach of asking at least for a "modest fee." There is, at least in the US, another reason for doing that, as well.

Under IRS rules, if an activity is "business," you can fully write off any and all expenses involved in that activity (including about $.035 per mile for travel). Theses are business expenses (Schedule C) that you can count against your income even if you don't itemize deductions. If it's "charitable contributiobn" (if the facility has the right tax-exempt status), you can deduct only about $.12 per mile plus any actual expenses --if you itemize deductions. If it's a "hobby'--which it would be considered if, say, you performed gratis at a place that's not counted as a charitable organization--you wouldn't be able to write off any of your expenses.

If you are a professional (paid) musician, you may be able to write off some free performances as advertising/publicity/promo, but I believe that amateur musicians--no matter how good they are--usually can salvage very little of their actual costs of providing music to nursing homes and the like, because the IRS considers it a "hobby" or because they take the standard deduction instead of itemizing.

Genie

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:36 AM

Oh! It looks GREAT! Here's your link right to the music page:

Ballyfermot College of Further Education, MUSIC

And a brochure to download:
Music Performance / Production & Management - PDF Format

~Susan

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 11:30 AM

Silly me, it's Ballyfermot College of further Ed., for which the second entry on the above page works.

So let's just try that blueclicquification one more time, complete with quotation marks, though I still haven't figured out what I was doing wrong last time (apart from inserting the wrong URL, that is!):

Ballyfermot College of Further Education under "Music".

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 10:55 AM

APC, I got to http://www.regsa.org/links.html, but I did not find "music." Is there another URL you can give that gets to the target, and then we can worry about making it a clicky?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 10:46 AM

Sounds as if you've got things fairly well sorted out, Mike. I'm a mere amateur, though when asked to perform by organisations which can afford it, I do ask for a modest fee to avoid undercutting the people for whom performing provides part of their income.

A few years ago, through a project in which I was involved at work, I came across a further education college in Dublin which takes a serious approach to the business of professional musicianship and which (unlike more prestigious academies) systematically includes a module on the business side of the music business in its courses. It's not starry-eyed banjo-and-bedroll folkie stuff, but I wonder if this commonsense approach to making a decent living out of music is widespread in places where they teach music?

Information here under "music"

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 09:47 AM

Genie, musicmic is in the Philly area, and he also writes indie CD reviews for the Philly Folksong Society, so I bet he gets to see a lot of press kits and how people present themselves.

~S~

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 02:15 AM

musicmic, where are you located? I have yet to find a retirement home that pays over $100 unless it's for a group or a really good concert pianist. (One place told me they saved up their money and hired one of those --once a year only-- for $300.) In Portland, Oregon, $50 is pretty close the top for a one-hour solo act for most facilities, and many can't go over $40. In Seattle, $50 to $60 is more common than in Portland, and a few occasionally pay $75. San Diego is kind of in-between, but when you get to the smaller cities like Salem, OR, activites budgets get smaller, too. I'm told that schools may pay several hundred dollars for a gig, but the probably won't hire you more than once a year, if that often.

Bev and Jerry, what's your experience with the payscale for schools, and where are you folks located?

I agree about the specialty programs. Jewish retirement homes and other Jewish private parties and organizations' luncheons are one of my specialties, as are programs for Cinco de Mayo and St. Pat's. How do you go about finding the private parties that want entertainment? All of mine have been booked by someone hearing me at a retirement home and asking if I do private parties. I've never sought them out, but I would if I knew how.

I'm also curious as to whether any of you folks supplement your income to any great extent by busking. Any of you New York catters play in the subways?

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: musicmick
Date: 10 Jul 02 - 01:26 AM

I am so pleased that Susan started this thread. It illustrates the difference in attitude between the professional folksinger and the dedicated hobbyist. Folksinging is a job, a service if you will. There are scads of venues where a folksinger can find employment. I have been gainfully employed in the field for over forty years and I am not the only one in the Philadelphia area who can make that claim. Let me offer a few suggestions for markets. Teaching is a great steady income. I teach folk instruments at my home, two days a week, and I earn enough in those two days to cover my living expenses. If you would like to get students, you might start, as I did, at a music store. When you have a reputation and a following, you can establish your own schedule. My guitar, mandolin and banjo students are very understanding about my playing out, but the teaching income (and my sense of responsibility toward my students) is such that I avoid jobs on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Senior facilities, retirement homes, travel clubs and the like are steady but dont pay enough to justify the amount of time it would take to do my own booking. Fortunately, there are agents who specialize in seniors jobs and I get calls at least once or twice a week for jobs in the $85 to $150 range, which I can do because I am available on those five days I'm not teaching. Ethnic markets are rich sources of work. I offer a program of Jewish songs which I perform at a myriad a Jewish men's clubs, sisterhoods, Hebrew schools, apartment associations, camps and lots more. (There are agents who work in this very specialized market.) I, have an Irish program that is very popular in March and I have a program of patriotic music that my agents sell in July. I do a lot of strolling in the spring and summer (civic events, town fairs, shopping malls). I do Christmas parties, commercial and private. I know all the verses. I have a number of friends who have developed their own markets as folk performers, mostly in the field of children's music. (The pre-school scene is a goldmine just waiting to be tapped). Well, I'm getting a little tired. I'll be more specific if anyone has questions.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 11:32 PM

Yeah, Don, but when your business music you have to do double time as a salesman--first to sell the client on the gig and then to sell yourself to your audience. Everyone who sells a product wants a product that will "sell itself," and your product is your music/stage personality, etc. Unfortunately, word of mouth (by way of your music selling itself) is only as good as is the communication among your potential clients. Folks who play mainly for the senior circuit don't develop a "name" the way local club musicians can, since you don't often get written up in the paper or talked about on the radio, and since activity directors often don't communicate that much with each other. I don't know if this is as much a problem when you play for schools, but with retirement and convalescent facitlities, you pretty much have to go back to square one a lot of the time when the person who was booking you leaves that job.

My problem is that I basically hate having to care whether people want to buy what I'm selling or not. I'd much FIND the market for something I already like and believe in--or (as in the case of most senior facilities), find out what the market wants and then provide it. If you enjoy trying to win people over, I think you have a leg up in any "sales" business, especially music.

I've thought about supplementing what is essentially a day music job by trying to do some coffee house and bar gigs, but I understand that the problems with double bookings, clients being evasive and playing hard-to-get, and getting stiffed on payment are as bad in that kind of venue as in the senior services businesses. Am I right?

Genie

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: DonD
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 09:45 PM

I've never gigged but I've been a salesman and it seems that making music for money is basically salesmanship. I believe about everything is salesmanship -- you want to persuade someone to accept what you're offering.

And while some picture a salesman making sales calls, most of the time and effort goes into setting up the appointments, doing the paper work, getting the merchandise into the customers hands, etc. Watch 'Glengarry Glen Ross' and realize that the real estate hucksters could be folkies scratching for a gig.

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 04:05 PM

But do you sell acoustic ice cream? *G*

~S~

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 02:20 PM

When asked what he does for a living, a friend of ours responded, "I'm a telemarketer and occasionally I play music."

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 10:44 AM

The mechanics of running a band, and various other musical jobs I do, is certainly a fulltime job. Dealing with promoters (and would be promoters) takes a lot of time. There's all the selling to do; and even if you're in the fortunate position of only having to process requests, and not actually sell yourself by approaching people, there's still a helluva lot of work to do. There's also hugely time-consuming activities that aren't directly work-generating, but are part of what I do. Researching material, helping other people research material, advising festivals/clubs about other performers fettling equipment/instruments etc.
I spend most days doing this, when I'm not touring. It can be dispiriting and boring (hence it is easy to skive a little and make a cup of coffee and dip into Mudcat discussions!!). I make a point of listening to good music while I'm doing the drudgery work, to remind myself what it's all for. I've got the Watersons on at the moment: just had General Wolfe, now they are fathoming the bowl.Brilliant stuff, unsurpassed on the Brit scene.
But I digress. I realised a simple mathematical fact a good few years ago, and it's frightening. If you want to do 200 gigs a year, that's four gigs a week. Hard work, but possible.But the thing is, to do 4 gigs a week, you've also got to set up 4 gigs a week for the future. Abd keeping moving on that treadmill is the frightener. At the end of every week, you need to ask youself, have "I set up 4 gigs this week?". And the answer is often NO. However, it's only Tuesday, the Watersons are now singingthe "Holmfirth Anthem" so who gives a toss?

(Any club organisers reading this, do send me a PM, I've a schedule to maintain).

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Jacob B
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 10:00 AM

For those considering joining the union, here's a link to a thread where the pros and cons were discussed.

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 12:38 AM

We've been making a living playing folk music in schools for over twenty years. Neither of us has had any other source of income for more than fifteen years. Before that we played coffee houses, house concerts, festivals, etc. but when we wanted to play music full time, we started doing it in schools because that's where the money is.

We've actually made a good living at it but what Genie said above goes double for schools. We spent a lot more time writing letters, making calls, rehearsing, travelling, researching than we ever did playing music. We started charging more for schools that were a pain in the neck (or any part of the anatomy for that matter) and then we started dropping them from the contact list. Now that we're sliding into retirement, we only play at our favorites - the ones we really enjoy and probably would have done for free.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 12:16 AM

I dunno, Art... sinning in Chicago clubs sounded like it might fit too. <g>

But what Art didn't say was that it wasn't just some record store, it was Rose Discount Records (now a Tower Records outlet) downtown on Wabash Ave. Thanks most probably to Art, they kept the largest and most complete stock of folk and traditional recordings anywere in the city. (Probably anywhere in the midwest.) Several floors of records, as I recall, and it was always great to see Art in there because when Art tells you something is good, you can take it to the bank.

The Old Town School kept a respectable selection but just didn't have the capital to compete with Rose and the OTS prices were much higher.

Art, I always admired the fact that you worked there. You kept up on what everyone in the field was recording and didn't have to over-commercialize your own performances. You made your music your way and took care of your family too. I always saw that as a double success, not some sign of failure.

But that's just one guy's view.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 10:55 PM

These are all GREAT posts. Keep 'em coming, folks.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Robin2
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 09:56 PM

All of my six band members either do music full time, or have jobs that know the music comes first, so booking is pretty easy as far as availability goes. I always set one full day aside a week (14 hours at least) to do booking and contact info, and accounting info, and promo info, and followup calls, and on, and on, and on...email, fax machines, and the internet have been a godsend, but there is still always more to do.

14 hours of paperwork and phone calls is no where near enough. It just keeps me ahead of current interest. It doesn't give me time to practice, or find new leads. Managers are great, but finding one who will handle celtic/folk/Americana bands is impossible.

The band's been together almost 20 years, and it DOES get tiring....but it beats anything else in town!

I'm normally pro union, but I don't think the musician's union offers much to casual gig bands. We belonged for years, and on at least one occasion they hurt us instead of helping us. I'm sure the union situation can be different in other cities though.

Just my .02

Robin

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 07:48 PM

Well Genie, I've played exactly three weddings, so my experience is very limited! I do know that it's tough doing Celtic songs at weddings because 95% of them deal with Love Gone Wrong - not appropriate for happy nuptials. Harpists and small classical ensembles (flute and guitar or string quartet) seem to be popular for the ceremony, and dance bands for the reception.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 07:31 PM

I see, Art, that you clarified that you were "singing," but it's a shame to visit Chicago without a little of the other, too, don't you think?

Michael, I'm curious about wedding gigs. I've done solos for friends during the ceremony and even developed a sideline of writing customized wedding songs for couples (they tell me the sentiments and ideas they'd like to express and I turn them into a song). I don't know if there's any market for that 'talent', though. Do folks pretty much hire only pianists, organists, and bands for weddings (the latter mostly for the reception)?

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 07:24 PM

Art, were you singing or sinning in Chicago? ¤;- )

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 07:06 PM

I've been promoting/booking my band for the past 12 years, and I'm heartily sick of it! During this time, the number of venues in our area that our music (acoustic Irish/Scots/misc. with full percussion) is appropriate for has shrunk by about 50%, so the bar gigs aren't bringing in much money.

I wish I could find an agent to hook up the better-paying gigs such as weddings, wineries etc. Problem is, we all have day jobs and/or kids, so touring is out of the question, and even driving more than an hour to a gig elicits major grumbling. And though there are literally hundreds of wineries in our area, all they seem to book is jazz and blues. What's a mother to do?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 06:50 PM

I try to do something every day to promote the band. Whether it's e-mail messages, sending out packets, or calling people. I also have a day job, as do the others in the band, but we manage to arrange to make all the gigs I book. I admire anyone who can do music full-time, because, as Genie stated above, it's a lot of work. You have to deal with people who are not as consciencious as you. Though not malicious, they can space out having booked you, and you're the one stuck at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 06:32 PM

Second word in my post above ought to be SINGING.

art

Art, typo corrected by JoeClone

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 06:30 PM

While singing in Chicago clubs etc. I worked in a record store to help with the rent. Went back there after quitting and worked there again a few years later--to pay for baby food. Somehow, the second time around really bummed me out. I should've been way past that stupid job by then. Really got to me 'til I realized it was just day job vu all over again.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: GUEST,Lynn
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 05:55 PM

Union-wise, I think a lot depends on the area you're in and the type of music you play. I played in a jazz band around Buffalo, NY back in the 70s. We were non-union. We got booked somehow in a club for what might have been a weekly gig. First night went well. Second night there was a union rep in the bar who struck up a conversation with our drummer. Next thing we knew we were on the street. It seems this was a union bar, but nobody in management bothered to ask us if we were union.

Folk-wise, esp regarding trad stuff, I don't think the unions pay us much attention, and couldn't help us much if they wanted to. I think it's more helpful for classical musicians and wedding bands.

But then I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: C-flat
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 04:33 PM

In answer to Genies' question, Yes we paid union subscription although I don't ever remember it being of any use to us. In the U.K. it's essential to have a union card to work on T.V. or radio but as we did neither........

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: C-flat
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 04:30 PM

Some years ago I worked with a band full time but we employed the services of an agent.The main reason is that the person responsible for booking acts at a particular club doesn't want to talk to complete strangers hawking their band. By using an agent to source entertainment they've got some guarantee of the quality of act they'll receive. You could try sending a demo but most of them hit the bin unfortunately because the recipient is all too aware that bands that sound great on a demo don't always live up to expectation.
We got lots of work through our agent, and were happy enough with his 15%, but for him to make money from representing you he wants you out working at least 4 nights a week which gets a bit wearing if there's any distance involved. Not to mention the fact that HE doesn't care how many flights of stairs there is to negotiate at the gig or what the quality of venue/audience is.
Overall it was enjoyable but these days the band still meets regularly, gigs occasionaly and avoids stairs wherever possible!

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 04:11 PM

I'm curious as to which of you musical cats are members of Musicians'Unions. I'm wondering if it's worth the dues and possible restrictions (like having to turn down jobs that the union doesn't think pay enough). Also, if you do music in more than one state, do you have to pay union dues in every state where you gig?

I'm told that the union does sometimes have grants to subsidize music for "nursing homes" (however that's defined), but I don't know the extent of such grants and how much paperwork is involved in availing oneself of those funds.

Anyone have any experience here?

Genie

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: SlickerBill
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 02:33 PM

I teach High School full time. The time I get in the summer seems like plenty, but I've discovered it's not enough to give me a chance at more gigging.

I had a go at it a few years ago. Got a grant and cut a demo, thought about cd funding, etc. I would like to do much of this still, but time, cash, and most of all energy are real limitations, and with a family and a mortgage and so on, I've had to reexamine how I look at things.

I really admire folks who have/are making a living out of music, but I've realised that my goals need to be more realistic given my constraints. If you ignore those constraints, I've found you can get yourself in considerable trouble, ie burnout.

So what I do is: gig with a few friends when the opportunity arises. Icontinue to write my songs and have developed my solo act a bit more in the last year. What I'm thinking about as well is to produce a real home made recording to sell at gigs. And finally to try to promote some of my tunes to publishers (That's the big one). But I remind myself to keep this really open ended and flexible. It means I do have to push myself to gig more, but to pick and choose, and not feel bound to do so. And, if at the end all I've got is a homemade cd and a few decent gigs to remember, hell, that's alright. Not terribly business like I know, but it turns out I'm not much of a business man. Tough. sb

Subject: RE: Music: Your Day Job
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 01:34 PM

Well, Sooz, I've been self-employed full time as an entertainer and music therapist, primarily for senior facilities, since early 1994.

Funny you should mention the "business side" of this type of work.  Some folks seem to think that if you "play" music--especially for senior or non-profit facilities--you should do it gratis or for peanuts. But for every hour I'm actually performing or doing a therapy gig, I spend an average of about 1.5 hours of other work (commuting, equipment set up and breakdown, tax accounting, and phone calls, letters, and faxes for publicity/booking/billing). With some clients, getting paid can be like pulling teeth.  And there are others who book you a year or more ahead of time but who may double book or forget they booked you if you don't remind them every couple of months.  (One problem peculiar to the retirement/assisted living/senior center/nursing home industry is the frequent and unpredictable change of activity directors.  One AD books you and then leaves the facility with no notice to you.  Usually the management and the new AD feel no obligation to honor commitments made by the erstwhile AD--even if you have a signed contract.  If they honor it, it's often just for convenience.  Often when the AD leaves, no one knows what bookings they have made.)

Oh, and I forgot to mention the time I spend doing research and rehearsal to learn songs that the clients want to hear.  And the extra NSAIDS and asthma inhalers I have to buy to get through a day in which I may play and sing for 4 to 7 hours.  (Some days like St. Patrick's, Cinco de Mayo, Christmas Eve, and Valentine's Day I may have 6 bookings (some 90 minutes) that day alone.)  Osteoarthritis, if you are prone to it, is an occupational hazard for folks who play a lot in any given day, and mine developed in my left hand when I began doing music as a regular job.

I've been known to make a 2-hour round trip to get to a 1-hour $25 gig.  To paraphrase your workshop presenter, you do what you know will get <i>and maintain</i> your clients.  If I have four jobs lined up in a suburb 30 miles away and all but one of them cancel, I'm probably not going to cancel the 4th one--especially if it's a regular client.  I'd rather have a regular, frequent gig that pays $25 for an hour than have one that pays $75 but for which I have to spend $3 and 3 hours in phone calls and faxes to get and confirm the booking and then not be able to count on the client not to double book or cancel at the last minute.

I do manage to make a very modest living doing this sort of thing (though I have some other income from investment interest).  I look at my gig slots much the way a store looks at merchandise. You sell what you can at "list price," which for me is $60 for an hour program.  You discount the rest PRN, with the goal being to make the profit you seek for the whole lot, not on a particular item.  This means occasionally some of the time spots will be sold for less than cost.  In other cases, I look at a $25 job a mile and a half from another gig and at a time that's not in high demand as icing on the cake.  An hour between two other gigs is not worth a lot to me unless I'm in a place where I can make productive use of it, and that's usually not the case if I'm not at home.

Lest you think this is a terrible way to try to make a living, let me point out that I've become a better singere, a much better guitarist and a far better entertainer  -- not to mention increasing my performance repertoire by about 50% -- since I started doing this full time.  Also, when I'm actually singing and playing the guitar--whether jogging the memories and stirring the emotions of cognitively impaired residents in a nursing home, doing a sing-along and sharing stories with very sharp senior citizens in an upscale retirement community, or doing a special concert of international music for a party with a mulit-generation audience--it's all worth it.  Very few jobs I've had (including college prof, fitness instructor, and mental health counselor) have had this kind of payoff for me.

Genie

PS, Susan, thanks for starting the thread.  I'm very interested in other folks' music business stories.

Subject: Music: Your Day Job
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 10:50 AM

This one is for all you getting-paid or would-like-to-be-paid musicians. (Or people who freelance in another field.) The premise is, you may have quit a "day job" to do music fulltime, but I bet the music itself is still a small fraction of the work you actually do. I think that even music has its own "day job," which is the promotional and business stuff that lets you get paid for the music.

At a Clarion Folk College workshop on "Getting Gigs," the most actively-gigging participant, who was leading that workshop, said she can esasily spend 20 hours a week communicating with presenters (people who book artists), publicizing upcoming gigs, record-keeping, etc. Her perspective was, "my goal on the business side of my day is to do the tasks I know will lead to gigs.... not to worry that each task must lead to a specific gig, but to reliably do the small things that, over time, will result in gigs." She had a focus and a detachment about it I found fascinating.... In a way, you could say that she was taking a professional agent's approach to her own band-- promoting the band, not her own identity. We also discussed the pro's and con's of leaving promotion to an agent.

So, Mudcatters, tell me about the business side of your music.

How much time do you spend? What do you do? How proactive are you in promoting yourself?

~Susan