BS: The Degradation of the American Vision

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:29 AM

Well, better to be part of a pair than less than whole; or perhaps, in your case, a complete hole.

I won't evenas who you think you are, since you can't say, but you might find it worhtwhile to think about.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:41 AM

Consult with Mr. Happy You two are a pair.

Re writes: my reading 'n writing specs in work tonihgt. 'n it's a real byig handicap to read or post abyyjthing anytjhing on the computer even witrhthe tevxt set on lrgest.

who else ghas this prob,/?

in the useuakl way ofg things if i dont have my reading gasses with ne when i;m out musicing i cant see my songshrrts properly / sometimedss its hil;oariuos

i'm going bask up to ellrs mere poet tomorrpw tp get them baxk. og how happu i shakl be

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:59 AM

re:phrase!

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:42 AM

It is now early September, 2001. Today's grim story is reported from Slate reporting on other newspapers:

The WP goes inside with a government entitlement for which support is slipping: The First Amendment. According to a newly-released poll (by, admittedly, a freedom of press type group), 49 percent of Americans agreed that "the First Amendment goes too far in the rights that it guarantees." Last year, before 9/11, 39 percent of respondents agreed with that statement.

This is an awful report and is also dramatically incomplete.

I am willing to wager that half of those comprising the reported 49 per cent could not even define First Amendment freedoms.

FOr those of you similarly cloudy on your recall of it, here it is:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I ask you, are we drifting into Facism, or what?

The First Amendment has only one flaw. It doesn't go quite far enough. It does not explicitly extend the constraint to the States. And it doesn't provide enough guidance about the Internet! :>)

But seriously, folks, what the hell is going on here?

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Amos
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 11:35 AM

Facism, fascism, alla same me! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Amos
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 11:34 AM

It's a real problem when a political monopoly gets into the hands of a business monopolist; the traditional offspring is called facism, although we probably won't hear that term being used in this context. Much too blunt, don't ya know! The battle of the bills -- Rights versus Dollars -- is always ugly. Especially where oil is involved. Half the funds spent on warfare in the last five years could have taken us a long way toward being wholly energy-independent, even energy-renewable, but it would have cut across too many goddam ricebowls -- big fat greasy ricebowls at that.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 26 Aug 02 - 11:29 AM

Aw, Bobert, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of L.H.'s post. Surely you don't believe the world was a better place when both Russia and the U. S. were competing to see who could build the most weapons and stockpile them the fastest!

And, "who" is biting us?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 11:05 PM

Got to agree with ya', Little Hawk. When ya' got a monopoly there's no one to compete with so ya' just do what ya' danged well want. The US has been doing that for a long time now and really razin' some folks. Yeah, Junior Bush Laden is worse than the others but that does not excuse their behaviors. Our foriegn policy is one of control and it's no wonder that we're now gettin' bitten.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 02 - 01:47 PM

Yeah, I bet he did! :-) Enough of that stuff will kill you.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 11:50 PM

L.H.: I have it on pretty good authority that Yeltsin drank quality Vodka though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:29 PM

You guys are havin' a great old time on this thread, aren't you? Well, we have some problems in Canada too, eh? But man, they are like oatmeal compared to the spicy gumbo you've got happening south of the border!

I will say this: the world was actually far more stable when we had 2 superpowers. Checks and balances. That's how it works, not only in the US government, but in the world in general. When the Soviet Union collapsed, stability went right out the window, and a great many people have suffered, lost everthing, and even died violently as a consequence. I'm not saying that to exonerate the Soviet system in any way, I'm just pointing out that power vacuums result in thievery, carpetbagging, chaos, and dirty little wars....which sometimes mutate into even bigger wars, given a bit of time.

The Russians, BTW, got robbed by the West (which promised them all kinds of wonderful things if they dumped Communism...ha! ha!)...and they KNOW IT. (My dad was there on business awhile back, and heard a lot about that from Russians he talked to.) I suspect Putin is quietly figuring out now how to go about restoring some of what they lost. He is no drunken fool like Yeltsin was.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 01:21 AM

Arghhhhhhh! I suspected it!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Genie
Date: 22 Aug 02 - 12:39 AM

Yeah, Doug, it's a conspiracy!

*BG*
Genie

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 04:23 PM

Aw Genie, you and Big Mick are just in cahoots. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Genie
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 02:29 PM

Doug R., "...at least one positive thing about our country..."?  Sure.  A major thing that our founders got right was the Bill of Rights.  (It took us a while to extend all the important rights to women, blacks, etc., but let's not quibble about that here.)  My beef Bush, Ashcroft,et al. is their eagerness to weaken several of those rights that are the essence of what makes the USA a better place to live than many other places in the world.

Big Mick said it well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 08:52 PM

Work on it, Bobert, work on it. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 06:45 PM

DougR: Well, I owe it all to you, good buddy. Yo may be a stick in the mud conservative, but you've certainly improved my writing skills. Now if I could just learn to spell and type...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 05:20 PM

My Bobert, you do go on. I like your writing style better though. Much easier to read the stuff I don't agree with.

Mick: I won't quarrel with anything you said, except, I just don't believe the concerns you and many others have for lost liberties will affect our daily life style as seriously as you all do.

In my mind, I never doubted for a minute that you were a volunteer. I think you are that kind of guy.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 11:51 AM

Yeah, Dougie, what Big Mick said. Ol' bobert sniffs a conspiracy plot that may go back as far as Senior Bin Laden hisself.

Ya' ever wonder why the Bush family and the Bin Ladens keep crossin' paths?

Ya' ever wonder why the only non-military aircraft flying over the US on Sept. 12th was a Sauidi airliner that Junior, above the advice of both the CIA and FBI allowed to fly in here and extract certain Bin Laden family members? Hmmmmmm?

Ya' ever wonder what would have happened if 5 Bushite conservative appointees hadn't called off democracy just hours before a Florida recount would have shown Junior to havge lost the election. No wonder that the Repubs. paid many more times than the Dems for attorneys and paid goon squads to intimidate folks.

Ya' ever wonder if those who would have us goosestepping to and from out meager assmebly line jobs are actually gonna pull of this very elaborate and well orchrstrated usurption of Amercan democracy.

Hmmmmmmmm?

Semms to me that there has never been an administartion with such great powers and such little wisdom or compassion.

No, make that a double hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 11:32 AM

But Doug, when you suggest to someone that they consider moving, you are just using a variant of that line, as I suggested. I agree with you that there are so many more things that are positive about our country than there are negatives. And they have been enunciated by myself and others many times in this forum. But we should never forget that what makes this so is the right of our citizens to dissent, dissect, debate, and ultimately change. The framers of the Constitution felt that they could give great power to the branches of Government, but that they must have the checks and balances so that no one person, party, or branch could ever get too powerful. And the ultimate check and balance is often ignored. That is the power of the people as expressed through politics. This is what keeps this country free of armed revolution. Respect for rule of law, and the ability of the citizenry to peacefully overthrow the existing structure through debate and then vote. What is happening right now is a usurpation of many of our rights and liberties under the guise of a "war on terrorism". And I ask again, who gets to define what constitutes terrorism? If the Saudi populace rose up against their rulers, would they be terrorists? Would we have defined Nelson Mandela a terrorist? C'mon, Doug. You know I have great respect for you, but this whole thing is a deliberate attempt to fuzzy up the battle so the real agenda isn't obvious.

And by the way, you didn't get drafted into the unit I was in. Had to volunteer.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 08:32 AM

DougR: No offense taken, my friend. And since I really don't like mnay, if any conservatives, Iz here to say that you gotta be my favorite right winged knucklehead (jus funnin')...

One thing, ahhhhhhhh. Okay. I like the freedom to go 'round and 'round with you. Well, at least until Johnny has some true believer in a SWAT team uniforn byst thru my door and cart me off to be imprisoned with ouit any charges actually brought agains me.

And I love my gardens which are now threatened by a drought that most scientists agree has been brought pn by the climate changes from burning up stuff that Junior says, "Nah, gotta be something else" and goes about pulling out of treaties to make the our atmospehere less damaging to us down here.

And I'm glad to spend $800 a month for health care insurance every month knowing that my bimbs and bruises will be covered but not too happy to know that if I get real sick than Juniors' buddies that run the HMO's can drop my sorry butt, ahhhh, for having the adasity of, well.... getting sick.

And I'm glad to have you DougR, take the time to taech me about the great American Paragraph, since Junior's schools don't really teach much of anything except how to pass a certain sstandardized test.

And, lastly, my firne, Iz ain't gonna go, but I appreciate that you're at least taking the time to try to find me places rather than Cuba...

Take care...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: GUEST,Sally Stanton
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 04:04 AM

Where's Martha Mitchell when we need her?

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 03:12 AM

Of course I agree there is room for improvement! I think that our country has continued to improve, but what I see other people writing is contrary to that. If critics, such as Bobert, and others would point out at least one positive thing about our country, 'twould be refreshing. Too many folks dwell, in my opinion, on what they perceive as being wrong with the U. S., without recognizing there is a lot that is right!

To suggest to someone like Bobert, who obviously is as unhappy with our country as he is, that he look for a place where he would be happier is not, in my opinion, unreasonable. I didn't say he had to, didn't even suggest that he do it ...but I don't like seeing my friends unhappy so I just suggested an alternative!

Why is that an unreasonable position to take? You don't like brussel sprouts? Don't eat them! You don't like classical music? Don't listen to it!

Come on Mick, I don't know why you served your country! Maybe you were drafted. What has that got to do with anything. You are intolerant of cliches, yet you used one. "Love it or Leave it." I never said that. I merely was trying to point out to Bobert that he had alternatives. The other one, of course is to stay here and bitch. Which is probably what he will do.

No offense, Bobert, you are still one of my favorite liberals (next to Kendall).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Peg
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 01:15 AM

well said, Genie.

I am still reeling from what I think was an attempt to lump John Ashcroft and Jimmy Carter into the same category...

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Genie
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:36 PM

You like [the US] just the way it is, Doug?  Well, if you mean it's a better place to live than any other country in the world today, there is certainly an argument to made for that viewpoint (though Swedes, Brits, Canadians, Aussies, New Zealanders, and some others would probably disagree with you).  But if you mean there's not a lot of room for improvement, my jaw just dropped wide open!

We have about 20% of black males behind bars, many seniors have to choose between food and their needed medicines (or heating their homes), the gap between rich and poor is widening, multinational corporations are thumbing their noses at our own labor and environmental and public health laws, our educational system is lagging behind that of many other developed countries, our air and water quality is far from ideal and our wilderness areas are vanishing (along with many species)--and now we face the threat of the kind of violent attacks that are commonplace in Israel, with our government asking for more and more power to intrude into our private lives and take away our property and liberty without what has traditionally been held to be "due process."

Please say you don't think everything is just fine and dandy the way it is here in the US now.

Genie

PS,

What you said, Big Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 11:18 PM

See..........Doug........that is where folks that think like you lose me. You always revert to that tired old "love it or leave it" line of horsepucky. Is that what I served my country to preserve? Or did I serve my country so that people can criticize the society? Folks with "good, old fashioned values" really don't have them at all. Of late, I have been reading a great deal about our founders and their vision. Guess what? That isn't what they envisioned. You see, we fight and die so that people can burn flags, dissent from the majority, find fault with our government, and ..............heaven forbid........criticize GWB. There is no need for them to consider moving. They live in a country where that would fly in the face of what was envisioned. Our founders were progressives. They set up a form of government that could morph and change and be what was demanded by conditions at the time. And they set it up with a very important set of checks and balances so that no one faction, no one branch, could supercede the others.

I can't believe that patriotic fellas such as yourself, and I am being sincere when I say that, don't understand the danger right now. But you will.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 10:53 PM

Geeze, Doug! No such luck. We took over the Sandwich Islands abound 1830 or so. Not one of America's finest hours, either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 03:36 PM

Geeze, Bobert, feel free to rant, but would you divide your rants into paragraphs? That makes it much easier for these old eyes to read.

You make such a classic case for how bad it is to live here in the old USofA, makes one wonder if you had thought about moving to Fijji, or the Sandwich Islands where you wouldn't be so handicapped? If your goal is to change it to what you think the "perfect" country would be, would you please just forget it. I like it just the way it is! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 02:22 PM

Yeah, I'm sure John can sing... and maybe play a little... but I'm sacred to death of his vision for the country. It's a country where poor women get abortions with coat hangers in dim lite rooms behind old gas stations. It's a country that locks folks up for being different. It's a country where neihbor spies on neighbor. It's a country where corporations rule over the working class and cvhange rules when it so suits them. It's a country that where people are taught just enough to pass certain tests rather than think. It's a country where artists go underground because unless they paint "barn" watercolors, they are not considered artists at all. Yes, it's a country where the working man dies on the assembly line. A country that is so gentrafied, with school uniforms and goosestepping children. Heck with the constitution, with liberty, with freedom. As long as we're all safe. Yes, safe to live in fear of getting sick and having our HMO drop us because we're sick. Safe, to have sex, but only if performed in a manner that John and Co. approve of. Yeah, safe to have over 50% of our hard earned wages extracted from us either directly or indirectly with the lions share going to build stuff to blow up people. But, hey, we're safe, aren't we. Yeah, Johnny and the boys scare the heack out of this old hillbilly. I'd rather have freedom back. Freedom to think. Freedom to make progreesive, rather than regressive, steps toward a more peaceful planet as opposed to one of the US bullying its people as well as the the rest of the world. Yeah, I'm sure John thinks he's doing the right things but I guess that just says a lot about just how broad a vision he has...

Sorry about the rant. Heck, no I'm not.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Genie
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 01:49 PM

Tony, I think I've heard Ashcroft sing (and play?) before. Wasn't he part of that quartet of US Senators who would entertain at various DC dinners, etc.? IIRC, he was pretty good.

I don't doubt that he is a warm-hearted individual and believes in what he is doing. It's his vision and some of his values that I disagree with.

BTW, I've never heard any of my "liberal" friends refer to midwesterners as "those hicks out in the flyover states." (I grew up mostly in Illinois and Missouri.)

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 01:44 PM

Venthony: I admire a courageous person. You my friend, have cojones. To come into this forum and defend John Ashcroft, you would have to. I think you wrote a very good post.

Genie: I don't mind if my mudcat friends think I am a "right-wing extremsist." I'm not, but those who think so seem to feel that anyone who does not march to their tune is an "extremist." I enjoy your posts, though as you stated in your post, we do not agree on a lot of things. I like vanilla ice cream. You probably like rocky road. If you like vanilla, we agree on somethling! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Venthony
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 05:12 AM

Dear Folks,

When I was a boy, my Pop -- a country schoolteacher -- was chairman of the Grundy County, Mo., Republican Party. As a young politician, before he became governor, John Ashcroft ate dinner with us a couple of times while campaigning in North Missouri.

I liked him. We were a musical household, and he sang and played the piano beautifully, and he was especially keen for those wonderful old hymns by Fanny Crosby.

I was pretty much into Hendrix at the time -- and John was kind enough to patronize my juvenile tastes, but I have since come to realize that Crosby is the greater artist both in spirit and in mind.

As for John, I remember him as warm and real and good-hearted. The kind of guy who would take time at a small-town GOP rubber-chicken dinner -- where there weren't any reporters or cameras around -- to talk to children.

He remains to this day an unapologetic Christian and a disciple of open, honest politics. You may not like it, but there it is.

I'm sure, with 9-11, and everything else that's crossing his desk, he's made some mistakes. But I can't think of anyone I'd rather have running Justice right now.

And he IS a musician, after all, and he likes Hank Williams.

Plus he's not some liberal who refers to all of us out here in the middle of the country as "those hicks out in the flyover states."

If John runs for president, he'll get beat. We're not a society that enjoys leaders who tell the truth -- Jimmy Carter being one example that comes to mind.

But he's got my vote.

Best wishes and prayers, Tony

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Genie
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 01:45 AM

Bobert, I think you're onto something. I, too, am very tired of the worship of material wealth and private property, not to mention harsh judgment of others, that passes for "Christianity." (Why is it that the "Christian Right" is always quoting Leviticus instead of one of the 4 Gospels?)

BTW, Doug R. I've heard you characterized here as a "right wing extremist" and things like that, and I have always thought that was hogwash. I disagree with you very much on a lot of issues, but unlike many of the right wing talk show hosts I referred to above (for example), you do seem to think for yourself and not to dismiss all ideas out of hand just because they are held by "liberals." Nor do you customarily stoop to calling those you disagree with stupid names (or making fun of their names, physical features, etc.) like many of the talk show hosts do. If there could be as reasoned a debate on the major media as often occurs here, there would be cause for hope.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 01:26 AM

L.H.: I didn't mean to imply that conservatives have a monoply on religion. Of course that is not so. I was referring to many Mudcatters who have posted anti-religious posts on a variety of threads relating to religious subjects.

Bobert: I think you may have a skewed view of organized religion, but respect your right to believe as you do. I, myself, am not one that takes the Bible literally. It is a great religious book, but I think one has to take into account the difference in society at the time the Bible was written, and time as it is today. Example: there may well have been a flood that covered the earth, but in the days in which this account was written, few, if any people, knew what the "world" encompassed.

I did not intend to offend my liberal friends, and if I did, I apologize.

I, myself, attend what is probably one of the most liberal Christian churches in existence. I don't always agree with the social stances taken by my church, but it offers me the best religious experience I believe I can find in a church.

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: toadfrog
Date: 18 Aug 02 - 08:37 PM

You seem to have a point there, Bobert. I remember back in Sunday School we read the Gospels. As portrayed there, Christ sounded like the first Liberal-not casting stones, suggesting rich persons might have a problem getting into Heaven, etc. Whatever happened?

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 09:26 PM

I'll make no bones here... I am a follower of Christ, first and formost. Christain? Well, that's unfortunately a different story. You see, most Christain churches have been taken over by those who spent way too much time listening to Satan, rather than God. Most Christain churches have become indoctrination centers for the ruling class. The pulpits are filled with folks that have personal and political agendas and not God's agenda. Yes, the churches, especially the white churches, have been taken over almost lock, stock and barrel by folks you think it their job to pass judgement, contrary to the teachings in the Bible. And by folks who foolishly say that they have God's ear and know what God wants of our society. Bull. These folks won't get within a hundred light years of the Pearly Gates. They are nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing. Instruments of all that is evil. They want folks to fear God. Is that the message that Jesus brought? To fear God? And they call themselves Christains! Hah! John Ashcroft a Christain? This man wants not only to sit in judegemnt but to take his vengence. That's Christianity? Come on! That's Satan satnding there with his jaw poked out mocking the teachings of Jesus. And folks are wringing their hands about the Coran and Islam and they think it is all so evil. Well, it ain't half as evil as the Cristain Right which is "neither". Bunch of Nazis as far as this Follower of Christ can see. And sure I'm mad. So was Jesus when he turned the tables of the money changers in the temple. Hey, there's a place for money but not above our spirituality. Not even in the same league. Not even in the same consciousness. No, get the money out of the equation and we'll get our churched back, one ay a time. Get the money out and we'll take on Islam. But the way it is now, with heathens running the churhes, Islam wins 100 out of 100. We need a change. We need to get our heads out of the old testiment now and then to listen and know the words of Jesus.

Thank you Lord for these words...

Amen

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 05:27 PM

Doug - I've long been annoyed by the fact that a lot of leftists feel that in order to be a leftist one must be anti-religious and deny the existence of any God or any spiritual basis to life. As far as I'm concerned they're about 100 years behind the times, fighting battles that meant something in Marx's day, but mean nothing much now.

They have too narrow a definition of both "God" and "religion" in their minds. After all, for most people in this society God is money, and their religion is getting more of it and buying more possessions with it. Then they have lesser Gods like: youth, good looks, sex, fame, popularity, coolness, etc...

Just observe general behaviour and you will see that this is true. A person's God is whatever that person has the deepest and most abiding faith in and regularly looks to for support and sustenance.

Even atheists are extremely religious...just about what is the question.

But, Doug, do not assume that being a leftist presupposes a lack of spiritual beliefs. Not necessarily.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 04:32 PM

Bobert: "The leaders are among us now and will step from the shadows when it is time."

Kendall: Bobert blew your cover!

:>) DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 03:09 PM

Doug, I don't care if someone chooses to worship the Great Pumpkin. I do care when they try to shove it down my throat under the pretext that they know better than I do.

There's a bewildering array of reasons people choose to be religious, from fear to security to just habit. But many religious leaders seem to naturally exude charm and charisma, and as humans we tned to respect the idea of people having given their lives over to God, even if it isn't the same God we worship. When you combine that with a man or woman who genuinely wishes to do good for their fellowman, you can end up with a King or Ghandi or Tutu. (You can also end up with a nightmare like the 4th Crusade.)

Even Jesse Jackson turned out to be a pretty good negotiator :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 08:28 AM

DougR: LOL. You must have some stock stashed away for some DC resturant, or something.

Nicole: The leaders are among us now and will step from the shadows when it is time.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 02:57 AM

Nicole: Methinks you may be wading in deep water in that last paragraph. You might get a pass, though, because other than your seeming approval of religion, your other postings are right on with the majority here.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Aug 02 - 01:03 AM

Sign me up, Bobert! We seem to be shy of the charismatic and driven leader(s) crucial to such an endeavor -- the kind of leaders that mesmerize people enough to put away their everyday concerns and think about the world for a while.

I've noticed more and more mainstream religious leaders becoming outspoken about the political situation and even the environment. There's a lot of great social leaders that came from a religious backgrounds.

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 11:40 PM

Hey, Bobert! A half million! I always liked your style. A half million is ambitious, and I hope you can recruit them. That will be good for the economy of that city which has probably been hurting since 9/11. All of those folks have to eat (good for restaurants), sleep (good for motels unless everyone is going to camp out), and maybe even good for the stores that sell umbrellas (it does rain in D. C. I'm sure you are aware). Right on!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 10:55 PM

Nicole:

In 1968 my father, a conservative Nixon-ite, threatened to kill me if I brought up the Vietanm War arounf him again.

Less than 2 years later, he marched, with my mother in the Moritorium in Washington, D.C.

Like I said, we just have to out PR them, out organize them and show them for what they are. If we do that, the moms and pops WILL figure out the rest. When you are on the right side, it's a lot easier....

And, BTW, Nicole. It will be my pleasure to have you with me when it's time to shine. You are a good person. I know that...

Amd don't worry aboput their control of the media 'cause when we get a half a million folks marchin' on D.C. they won't be able to ignore it any more next time than the last.

You must maintain you upmost Faith and dedication and not worry about the resources of the ruling class. They can and must be beaten and shown for what they are: Godless, anti-human greedy controling people.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 09:56 PM

"War with Iraq", "civil disobedience", "dissenters in the streets", "guerilla warfare and terroristic tactics"...obviously I've been listening to the wrong news channels. Its all smoke and mirrors, folks, so we won't notice how much more messed-up the economy and the environment are now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 09:46 PM

Bobert, I wish I could agree. But most of those moms and pops see the world through the TV screen and the news they are told. Control the media, and you control public opinion.

In the (hopefully unlikely) event that our government did turn the military on a crowd of dissenters, the people would be portrayed as violent terrorists and as a threat to Homeland Security, whether they did anything or not. That is, if infiltrators didn't start the violence themselves. And in this climate, your average citizen is swallowing the terrorist excuse hook, line and sinker.

No, I'm not this paranoid :) I brought up the subject of public revolution as a worst case scenario. Or maybe best case scenario. Guess it depends on how the revolt went ;)

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Genie
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 09:24 PM

Right on, Bobert!

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 08:55 PM

Ebbie, Ebbie, Ebbie: First of all, bless your heart. Your determination is a wonder to witness.

Now, hang with me here. When I was working for the Richmond Community Action Program (R-CAP) in the 60's as a community organizer I met Rev. Rotan Lee, a black activist, with whom I spent a lot of my time. The Reverand had a way of teaching and I'll be the first to admit, that I needed some teaching.

Well, one day her told a story of a racist white writer who had published a book about the superiority of the white race. Now this writer was to speak at a black college and walked into the auditorium, stepped to the podium, cleared her throat and calmly said, "You folks are descendents of apes and monkeys..." and then stepped back as those in attendence preceeded to jump up and down, making hand jestures, screaming and prettty much acting rather unruley. After about a minute of of this behavior this writer stepped back to the microphone, cleared her voice and calmly said, "I rest my case..." and walked off the stage. Hmmmmmmmm? Whats the Bobert saying here?

The Who said it best when they sang, "We won't get fooled again." This time, it is very, very important to not let their "tapes" stop us. The Yippies and anarchists did more to kill the last attempted revolition that anything the other side could have thought of. The other side even infiltrated radical srudent groups trying to get them to move from non-violence toward a behavior that would justify things such as Kent State.

We have a responsibility this time around to keep the fight on our terms. Not theirs. If we do, then no one is going to be run over by tanks. And if someone does then the other side be be seen for waht they are and they will loose at that very moment because the moms and pops will join the movement and that scares the crap out of them. The Moritorium was moms and pops and baby strolers and that scared the absolute crap out of them. The only way we're gonna get the moms and pops is to hold the course.

We can win this one if we keep it on our terms and that is the only way. Not their rules.

Think about what I've said, Ebbie. I know you are a good person and I want to know that we can count on you to not blink. It tales more heart to stand up to a tank with out a gun than to be gunned down playing their way.

End of Bobert's sermon, but this is a very important one that I feel has to be delivered and redelivered over as we go about taking back our country.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 05:49 PM

Ebbie: Archie? McCleish? I KNOW you didn't mean Bunker.

Genie, Bobert, Nicole: Revolution? You mean like fighting? Surely you jest. I think we are about as far from a revolution as we are from converting the mideast to democracy.

If you want to march, though, I say right on! Walking is a healthy pastime. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Degradation of the American Vision
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM

Ebbie, Bobert, I agree. To a certain extent.

Are we in the middle of a revolution? I'd say we definately are, but the revolution isn't happening with the people; those groups that are always trying to seize personal power for themselves are starting to succeed, and doing it in a tearing hurry. But very few people are fighting back, least of all our legislative and judiciary branches, and it starting to look more like a coup.

History shows us that this happens from time to time, the pendulum of power swings toward a small group, but eventually our basic belief in democracy brings us back to the center. Personally, I haven't lived through any of those past swings (at least not of an age to really be aware), so it's hard for me to judge. But it looks like power is shifting at a much higher rate of speed than it has in the past, mostly because few people are resisting it.

Is it the time for discussion, demonstrations, and even acts of civil disobediance? Absolutely. Violence would be self-defeating. (Although I think the end of the Vietnam war had a lot more to do with the goverment using political unrest to save face while removing themselves from a situation they didn't want to be in. But I was about 2 years old, so what do I know?)

But let's not forget one of those great shifts of power in our history -- our Civil War. The northern states insisted that the federal government should hold more political power. The southern states disagreed, they still held that the local and state governments were more important. A bloody conflict followed, and our state laws have been much weaker since. That was 140 years ago. 225 years ago, we overthrew our British government. A few years after that, we shredded our own government and created the one we (mostly) have today.

I don't think that we'd have another all-out war like the Civil War, but I do think that a war *could* happen, given the speed with which the executive branch is accumulating power and their disregard for basic civil liberties and the Constitution.

Our founding fathers practically invented guerilla warfare and terrorist tactics to fight off a vastly superior enemy. We still have wacky "militia" groups hiding out in the countryside waging war via fake anthrax letters to abortion clinics and setting bombs around federal buildings. The mechanism and the knowledge is in place for a nasty conflict.

The frog is being lulled to sleep on the stove, but he might wake up. If it does come to that, I am not going to sit in the street and peacefully wait for a tank to roll over me. I love peace, but I'm not a pacifist.