BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?

Subject: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM

Serious question (sort of, I am writing a lecture about water). I have done some web searching without success, but maybe somebody here can help me -- does anyone know of any research that shows that human beings (being mostly water) are physically tidal? I am not looking for stuff on women's periods, etc., but the actual measureable tidal effect on human beings.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:13 PM

Yes, absolutely. I've thought about that myself. Can't begin to offer any proof but I think we are.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 06:04 PM

You Can't Hide From The Turning Of The Tide

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 06:16 PM

Peter, it is an interesting hypothesis, for sure, but I cannot at the moment envisage how a research project would formulate its parameters for such a study. I shall watch this space with interest.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 06:34 PM

I was walking along the shoreline in Maine when I was about 20 and as the tide went out I became very depressed, almost unable to move. However, as the tide returned my spirits were buoyed as well as my body which became so engorged that an Emergency Squad was called and I was transported to a local brothel for treatment.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 06:36 PM

Yes, the man on the moon controls them.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:05 PM

Spaw, there are no brothels in Maine. They don't even have sex in Maine. (Ask kendall) You must have been walking in Nevada, although God knows how the tide could have affected you there ...

Murray

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:06 PM

Peter:

The impact of the moon on the oceans is gravitic. Tides only appear because there is so much water, and because it is liquid and thus capable of different vectors of mementum than the planet itself.

On an individual scale, the effect of the same amount of gravity is absolutely negligible compared to the dominant influence of the Earth's gravitational pull; the inverse square law makes this obvious.

So a tidal effect on iindividuals is unlikely to be significant and only measurable as a microshift compared to the gravitational pull from mother Earth. On the species as a whole, it would be interesting to see if more left or right brain thinking occurs on the planet during periods and in areas where the tidal cycle is highest. The tendency to agree in one direction or another would be multiplied exponentially by the interactions in the same field. So even a micro-shift in the individuals might show up as signficant in the larger popullation.

But no, this is all speculation and I don't know of any literature on the tidal effects of bodily liquids in humans, I think for the reasons I mention.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:15 PM

One of the more barbaric punishments for treason in mediaeval/Tudor England was to anchor the offenders in the Thames at low tide with the top of their heads just below the high tide mark.

I suppose this might count as "actual measureable tidal effect on human beings".

I like your post Amos. Now, how about applying the same reasoning to the influence of the planets, and debunking astrology once and for all ?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Pooka
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:52 PM

Mr. 'Spaw sir, were they able to get the swelling down? "There is a Tide in the Affairs of Men...."

Amos, brilliant as usual. Thankyou.

"...It would be interesting to see if more left or right brain thinking occurs...in areas where the tidal cycle is highest. The tendency to agree in one direction or another would be multiplied exponentially by the interactions in the same field."

Speculative or No, this could account for my observations of odd behaviors in residents around the Bay of Fundy. When the tide is In, they're out standing in the Field. When it's Oot, they're a crashing Bore. :)

LOL!

-Pook

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 09:49 PM

Not to do with tides, specifically, but the watery evolution of man. There is a theory that at some point water dwelling hominids branched off from other ape-id...which accounts for the fact that alone of the primates human babies naturally hold their breath under water, also for the layer of fat, like sea mammals, that humans have, unlike other primates. and our lack of body hair (babies didn't need it to grip on to mothers as they were swung thru the trees)...

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: GUEST,Cookieless Anahootz
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 10:04 PM

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: GUEST,Still cookieless anahootz
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 10:10 PM

heh...don't hit the "enter" key to go from the FROM box to the TEXT box...

At any rate, I am going to second the opinion of Amos, and add that, since the visible gravitational effect of the sun and moon appears as a "bulge", a standing wave that the Earth rotates under, I don't think humans have enough mass to be measurably affected by such pull.

Mebbe they do...and mebbe that's why all kinds of wierd stuff always happens on full moons...

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:07 PM

Peter T is, I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:17 PM

Bert:

What -- different sign?

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:10 AM

No different moisture content.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:28 AM

H2 Oh!

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:46 AM

I'm sure the stuff that happens at full moon (more babies born, more murders committed, more people dancing naked in the woods thinking they are Napoleon) because although the water mass isn't that great, the moon still has an effect on it... it's even named after the moon - lunacy

I know that it affects me a great deal, I'm always that bit happier at full moon. Looking back, most of my worst depressive episodes have been at new moon, but I'm not a lunatic, I have the certificate to prove it.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:05 AM

I would say yes... yes we are tidal, and the "negligable" effect spoken of above is and understatement to be sure. We do not bulge or swell much, but the mood swings, and psychological effects of the moon cycles are well documented. Because of our small locality, our whole being is affected at once, and this has a very different tidal effect than a swell of ocean... I have heard it said that if you dig a hole in the ground on the new moon, and fill it on the full moon with the excavated dirt on the full moon, you'll get a mound... Haven't tried it... the pull of the moon could have given evolution its exagerations, and thus a greater tendency towards variety... It's so hard to really know, because of the prehistoric nature of the moon's influence on life here on earth... We simply take it all for granted because frankly, it is! Astrological influences are running through us at all times and moments... all of us simultaniously... so the subjective view is constant for all of those of us in our vicinity... I think I sense a small part of breaking away from this regional phenomenon in our relations on the internet... we are relating here from outside our regions, and therefore are speaking from slightly different places in the moon cycles. Interplanetary travel will change all this! ttr

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:08 AM

I understand they used to beat the poor sad inmates of Bedlam at the full moon as a prophylactic against bad behavour.
Perhaps lunatics have wetter brains.
Did Napoleon really inspire people to dance in the nuddy, Liz?
It's The Big Yin who inspires most devotees.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:19 AM

There's a saying in Donegal that, translated, means "It is with the ebb-tide that we die" - and there's a belief generally among Irish fishing people that people are unable to die until the tide ebbs.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:24 AM

Thomas the Rhymer, I take it you have never worked on a building site?

If you dig a hole in the ground at any time of the month and try to shovel the dirt back in you will get a mound. Try it sometime.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:19 AM

I used to know a Norwegian guy called Erik Syrstad, who spent a year at the south pole researching gravitational pull as it affect the land. He assured me that the moon has a tidal effect on land, so it must affect people. I only wish at my age, that I could manage going in and out twice a day.
failte.....Giok

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:21 AM

The tides and the phases of the moon are inseparable.
I think that the presence of the word lunacy is evidence enough of an effect. Should we call them astronuts? The Eskimo (Inuit etc)have how many words for snow? 20 or is it 40? because it is central to their existence.
I read an article in News Scientist over 20 years ago that was part of a series on old wives tales. The correlation between full moon and road accidents, murders and riotous behavour shows a correlation. It is above the point where statisticians normally allow for the probablity of randon chance.
More contentious is if you take out the factors like (say) mecahnical failure and natural disasters the effect is beyond that point.
The arguement is even more persuasive if you consider homicides that are not premeditated - harder to quantify but things like the result of domestic violence.
The problem is that it is not a given on any full moon and not a big enough effect to silence doubters. AND it is a statisitcal anomally that does not rule individuals.
Ask workers at psychiatric establishments when they are more vigilant - or police about manning strategies.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:32 AM

Any tidal effect would be because we have mass, not because we are largely water.

Pro. When isolated from external influences of daylight, etc., in caves, humans tend to have a daily cycle of nearer 25 than 24 hours. This is closer to the cycle of the Moon passing overhead than actual daylength. No-one in my knowledge has thought that a tidal explanation for this is likely.

Con. Research in a major hospital in South Wales has shown no link between childbirth and the state of the tide. My feeling about this is that any result would be more likely to show up in old data, before mothers were all in hospitals where interventions may be designed to encourage birth at convenient hours.

Pro. Clams (and other sea creatures) which have behaviours related to tides, have been observed to change the times of opening etc. to match what would be the local tides when removed from the coast to laboratories far removed from coasts. This was in the States, so far removed means several hours in Moon time.

Con. Humans, and even more clams, have masses so small that the effect of gravity changes would be minimal.

Pro. Tidal cycles show up on gravity meters which are less massive than humans. The Moon's pull also affects the rock beneath, so altitude changes. If near the coast, the tidal loading on the seabed has an effect. Whether these tiny changes can be detected by people is questionable - but if people can dowse, maybe...?

Con. Behaviours attributed to lunar changes are usually monthly, and probably related to the light enabling people to be out and about rather than daily, as a tidal effect would be. Any changes based on the lunar cycle would probably be drowned out by other effects in daily life.

To study tidal effects you would need to keep your subjects isolated from every signal except gravity - continuous light, no radio or TV, food continuously available - over a very long period. Or access the results from the cave experiments and relate them to lunar positions at the place and time of the experiment.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:36 AM

By the way, does this thread look (physically) odd to anyone besides me? To me it appears as if the tide has gone out to the left of the page, leaving a one-inch rim of pring with one to three words per line.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:37 AM

If the full moon lunacy behaviour effect were tidal, there would be a second peak at new moon, when the sun's and moon's gravities are also added. Each month has two sets of spring tides.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: JudeL
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:09 AM

since transmission of impulses in the brain is on a miniscule scale it would seem a possibility that tiny differences in gravity may have an effect

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 08:52 AM

Murray, I've dug a lotta holes down here in Florida and it's fairly common knowledge amongst us that the moon has an effect on either the pile of dirt you have dug up or the size of the excavated area. Sometimes there's not enough to fill in the hole to the top and sometimes you have to haul it away. Especially true when replacing hydraulic automobile lifts in service stations. We always made note of this odd phenomena as it meant more work for us. (i.e. either shoveling dirt back on the truck or finding a place to swipe a bit more from the customer's neighbor to finish the job)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:06 AM

The tidal effect per se may be a red heering (no mixed metaphores here) because the tides are caused by the moon we should be looking at the moon. In addition to the tidal effect there is the ambient light at night - it affects ionized air and ozone to a small degree. More people venture abroad if they can see where they are going - more scope to activities.
If the evidence is a correlation it begs the question "Have we put all the observations in the pot?", "Tidal effect " is not a cause in this context but an ancilliary bit consquential data that is bound to correlate.
Am I being to studious? Oh OK then.
How many stargazers does it take to change a light bulb.
None they hate light polution.
I'll get my coat (and telescope).....

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:24 AM

Tweed, Florida is an exception. Being a peninsula between two huge masses of water probably accounts for these anomalies.

But, I have to ask, where does one find a mound of dirt in Florida? My experience was that after you dig down three inches you hit solid coral and have to give up (or get your wife to finish the job herself )

Murray

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

Thanks to all. What I am really looking for is micromovement. It is usually said in these things that the water in a teacup has a tide, so there must be something. If what Penny and others suggests is true, then maybe the water in the body has a different tide than the bones and muscles -- but then again the water is so cellular, except the bloodstream. Hmmm.yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:50 AM

Coincidence is not causality, guys. The question was whether humans were tidal, not just cyclical.

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:53 AM

Murray, You were possibly digging up the beach area. We've dug down 18 to 20 feet with no caprock encountered here in south florida. Miami-Dade area is a little closer, if not right at the top and is a real pain in the ass to excavate and de-water. I hear that when they set fuel tanks in the Keys they hire a local blaster, but we stay outta that area. The Conchs are pretty protective of their local construction industry and very adept at setting charges ;~)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM

Hi, Murray... Nonsense! Aside from being a landscape installer and a drystack/mason specialist, I've dug more holes than you can imagine... In my experience, sometimes the earth settles in and forms an indentation, and sometimes it doesn't... it forms a mound. I simply meant that I've never subjected the digging of holes and ditches to scientific studies along these lines... ttr

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:33 AM

Amos' original post was exactly what I was going to say. ;)=

Consider: gravity itself is a very weak force. You have to be the size of a planet to have any notable amount of it. The tides are a subset of gravity, which only occur due to a lack of resistance from any other force--the moon after all has a whole planetary ocean to work on.

People are a lot smaller than oceans. I don't think people are tidal.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:50 AM

Hmmm....But water is water after all right? If all the drops in the ocean move with the moon then why wouldn't all the drops in us move along with it? Not like the tides in Maine of course, but they should move a bit I reckon.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:09 PM

The 'tendency' of electrons is encouraged by the 'pull' of the moon to be slightly more active and energetic... especially in water molecules... which causes atomic expansion as the empty space of the atom increases in volume... It is, perhaps, this exact phenomenon, in cyclical regularity... that created life in the first place... Well... MAYBE!!!!

Actually, the pull, seems to effect the heavier more fluid elements faster. In this case, liquid is more affected that gas... is this right? ttr

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:16 PM

Willie-O: "Consider: gravity itself is a very weak force. You have to be the size of a planet to have any notable amount of it. The tides are a subset of gravity, which only occur due to a lack of resistance from any other force--the moon after all has a whole planetary ocean to work on.People are a lot smaller than oceans. I don't think people are tidal."

I am not the size of a planet, nor even a moon, but I have yet to fall of the Earth. The force of gravity is relative to the sum of the two masses on which it is working*. i.e. the sum of the moon's mass and the mass of the body on which its effect is being considered.

Nigel
*(and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between then)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Pooka
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

Another terrific Mudthread here, at once highly educational & highly entertaining.

I've dug a few holes for myself, meself; and, here I go again:

"Tweed, Florida is an exception." Yes, but enough about New Jersey.

"...transmission of impulses in the brain is on a miniscule scale". Hey JudeL, thanks! I'm normal, then. :)

Giok: *LOL*! O so it's "Twice Daily" wuzzit!! Yeah I can't remember either.

"...more people dancing naked in the woods..." Locations & lunar phase charts please, LTS. Have a heart; this is for Giok and me.
("O Napolean Bonaparte, you're the cause of my woe...")

Willie-O: "...People are a lot smaller than oceans." Well, apart from Big Mick, I gather. But um, I don't think gravity is The Weak Force. Let's ask Amos. (Our Strong Force.)

Amos - but multiple 'coincidences' may be *suggestive* of possible causality, no? / Assuming there IS any causality of course. In the Quantum realm, does not the "effect" sometimes precede the "cause"? /
But then, people are a lot bigger than the quantum realm. Well, apart from Catspaw's uhh nyaah nevermind. / However, the quantum world is the Cause of *Us*! Aaah nuts, too corn-voluted. My miniscule brain impulses fail me. (Also, they hurt.)

JTT - "...there's a belief generally among Irish fishing people that people are unable to die until the tide ebbs." Then may the Belfast tide come in, and stay in. Quick. Really.

--Cyclical Poocl

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Pooka
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 01:18 PM

OKOK enuff of that merde. / But look: gravity itself is now interpreted as a Wave, right?? There are gravity-wave-detection experiments. It's a tidal pun sortof (and a pitiful Weakforce one at that), but I don't mean it that way, honest. I.e., what the hell IS gravity anyway? Einstein said it was mere curvature of spacetime, or something like that. Of course he also said God does not place Dice, which is questionable; why wouldn't She? God knows *I* do...woops, sorry.

Amos, my vote: Yes we are tidal. Not merely bicyclical (woops 2). I Intuit it. Notwithstanding that you Counter very well. (3; "Yer out!")

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Pooka
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 01:19 PM

*PLAY* dice. Bah. Dumb keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 01:39 PM

Look, get the math right. The force of gravity is directly pro-portional to the two masses considered in a simple equation, and INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO THE DISTANCE SQUARED.

Assume mass of body (human, average) is 60 kilograms.
Mass of Moon = 7.35 x10^22 kilograms
Mass of Earth = 5.98 x10^24 kilograms
Distance to Moon's center: 241000 miles
Distance to Earth's Center: 3,455 miles

Consider the proportionate values!

5.98 x10^24*60* (1/11937025) compared to

7.35 x10^22 *60* (1/5.808x1^10)

Let us not be unduly mystical, friends!

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 01:59 PM

Peter T., this page should lead you to some reliable information:
http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html Click here

It includes comments on why people believe lunar/tidal myths even though "many studies have failed to prove a significant correlation".
Reasons people continue to believe:
"the media perpetuates lunar myths,
folklore and tradition, (superstition)
misconceptions,
cognitive biases and communal reinforcement"

So, to reiterate what others have posted, to understand tides you have to understand gravity. The mass of water in a human body is extremely small compared to the mass of water in the oceans.
Here is a bit more on tides and gravity and mass:
=============================
http://www.hawken.edu/ptra/archive/msg00929.html
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
       Subject: Re: question about tides and gravity
       From: [e-mail]
       Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:50:07 EST
       Sender: [e-mail]

The tidal effect is the difference between the gravitational forces on unit
masses on opposite sides of a spherical object -- and it can be shown
algebraically, with some approximations, to vary as the mass of the object
divided by the cube of the distance from the object. So the ratio of the
moon's to the sun's tidal effect is

(mass of moon)/(earth-moon distance)^3

divided by

(mass of sun)/(earth-sun distance)^3.

This ratio is about 11/5

Best regards, John Roeder
===================================

Just picture the amount of water in the ocean as one mass compared to the mass of one human body, and that the ocean is completely liquid... your body is not.

And to conclude.... what Amos said.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 02:04 PM

Well my worst depressions for the last 3 years have coincided with the high spring tides at the equinox - or is it that I just don't like March very much?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 02:04 PM

Amos: So, If the defining part of the equation is the relationship to distance (which I did include in my earler post) then the effect of the Moon's gravity causing the height of tides by affecting the waters of the Earth should be as nothing compared to the effect of the Earth's gravity which ensures water always tries to find its own level, Right ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 02:07 PM

That last equation should read:

7.35 x10^22 *60* (1/58081000000) -- makes it easier to see what a tiny value you get compared to the field influence of Earth on the same human body. The issue of liquid has nothing to do with it. The only reason we think of liquids as tidal is because they show it more obviously, being less atttached, yet having enough coherency to respond uniformly as though they had a block mass. Gases would be just as tidal but they dissipate and act like they have trilliions of centers of mass. Come to think of it, I wonder if there is an atmospheric response to the cyclical infuence of the moon?

A.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 02:47 PM

Amos sez..."Come to think of it, I wonder if there is an atmospheric response to the cyclical infuence of the moon?"
Hey Spaw, you notice any unusually cataclysmic atmospheric responses during full moons?

By the way, I'm diggin' holes in the backyard huntin' for a sprinkler line to tap into. I'll let you guys know if I have too much or too little dirt (sand)left over.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM

That is a classic example of the kind of illogic that would make superstitious mystics of us all.

Consider:

1. Earth removed from the ground enters a drtamtically less dense environment and decompresses, to whatever degree it has some elasticity, or moisture in it. Air enters into the dirt in ways it could not do so before, as well. Therefore the density of the dirt decreases.

2. Consequently if you really DID save all the dirt removed from a hole int he ground and then put it back in, it would fill a greater space than the original compressed dimensions it had in situ and therefore would make a mound. Shoveling the dirt in and out mixes in air as well and decompresses the particles.

3. This occurs under any lunar conditions including new, half, full, harvest and blue moons.

4. Therefore it is true that if you dig a hole in the full moon, it will make a mound when you fill it up, right?

5. Now here's the illogic -- saying that "therefore there is an influence by the full moon on dirt." Might as well say "the full moon sharpens shovels", or "The Man In The Moon hates holes".

It's physics, folks.


A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:12 PM

Thanks to all, I note (thanks Alice) that the site she sent me to has nothing to say about the question I raised, just the usual lunar cycle stuff. From the various discussions, I continue to presume that the blood, sweat, tears, and urine of human beings (being water in bulk) have a different tidal response than the water trapped in cells. It is miniscule, but measurable, if we had fine enough instruments.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:16 PM

Amos wrote:


Look, get the math right. The force of gravity is directly pro-portional to the two masses considered in a simple equation, and INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO THE DISTANCE SQUARED.

-----

but I don't understand long words like "marmalade" or complex mathematical stuff. I don't understand why a big thing should be more affected by a distant thing than a small thing.

And of course if you treated all the humans as one thing... ;)

Hey, I've got to stop drinking that Cyprus wine!

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:23 PM

No no no no no no Amos. This is Folk wisdom, and experience speaking, not just a-priory, pseudo science...:^) ... I may be an idiot, but I DO tend to compact the refilled soil... noticing the inconsistancies in the result... and mind you I've personally dug enough to be in China right now... You oughtn't deny me my own and other's personal experiences... Mystical Schmistical... there's more to it than meets the well trained eye! Reductionist theories are just as pathetic as tabloid astrology... Keep an open mind, and a ready heart! ttr

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Pooka
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:26 PM

Tweed, *G*. Yea but verily Amos Also Sezeth: Gases Dissipate. Therefore Mr. 'Spaw sir, wuz you ever been Dissipated? Like before your tidal bulges went down?? The trillions of centers of Mass are ended; let us go in pieces.

Alright already, A.! So I bow to the Math. So we can't be tidal. When yer right yer right. Apparently we aren't even lunar ticks, per the statisticks. Pfui.

(Pooka pops down quantumrabbit wormhole -- to you, more's the pity, frozen forever at the event horizon, just before the tidal forces separate his puns [shaddap] into macrocosmic macaroni. Macaronic. Whatever. Singular.)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:31 PM

Oh, right. So if I read this thread right, it's nothing to do with the tides or lunar cycles, I'm just allergic to March.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Alice
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

Liz, or maybe just really tired of winter...

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:06 PM

No, I quite like winter, I don't mind the rain (or the rolling sea, to get back to a) music and b) the subject for a second!), I've just had this really bad patch every March for the last 6-8 years, the last 3 being the worst. I think it's just paranioa although this year there were several contributing factors.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:12 PM

I did leave something out - atmospheric tides. The air column above a person will be affected by the lunar gravity as well. Liz's equinoctial depressions could be associated with equinoctial weather, which would affected by astronomical phenomena. More likely though to be the advancing solar heat crossing the equator and bringing the associated bands of the weather system north. Air pressure changes could change physical responses. Weather changes like thunder storms, some winds such as the sirocco, are known to have effects of states of mind. If the effect were tidal, then there should be a parallel effect in the autumn. (And this last week, when the astronomical tides were at their largest for a long time, with the Moon at its nearest to the Earth at the new moon.)

A good place to find the maximum astronomical tides (when Earth Moon and Sun are most closely in line, closest together, or nearest to being overhead) is to look at the Severn Trent water company site and find the best viewing times for the Severn Bore or the Trent Aegir.

If there were any effect on the loose liquid in the body, it would be so small that it would be drowned by the effects of hormones on blood flow, the effects of running for a bus, of getting angry, of feeling any sort of passion, of standing on your head, standing up in a hurry, having low blood pressure and oedema. And of course by the tide due to the Earth itself, which tends to pull things down rather strongly.

Tides affect everything, not just liquids - I've heard that Aberdeen goes up and down by a foot each day on its granite. The lunar tide on the body - and Amos has shown how small it is - would not have an effect able to differentiate the response of liquid within cells from that outside.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:20 PM

What's runnming for a bus mean??

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:22 PM

Liz, I've just thought that recent springs have had rather different weather patterns from those we grew up with. I don't know where to look for the records over your bad years, but I'm sure there are amateur meteorologists who would love to do that sort of research.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:28 PM

A bus being a large vehicle which stops at various locations to pick up and deposit passengers which it transports from place to place, it is necessary at times to run to the place where it stops in order to get on it before it moves off. Hence running for a bus.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:50 PM

Running for the bus is another way of saying "I wish I had arrived at the bus stop a little sooner"...

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: The Pooka
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:57 PM

Bus Stop: uh oh. Relativity rears its relatively ugly head. Spacetime, begob. *Look*out!

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM

Nigel:

The reason that oceans have tides is they are coherent as a fluid, held to the earth by it's much greater gravity but also being accelerated to and fro by the lesser pull of the Moon's field. We're talking about the effect on trillions of kilos of water. The fluid in humans, being considered individually, is microscopic in comparison. Humans don't share their combined billions of kilos of water.

An analogy: our a gallon of water into a number of little Dixie cups and the same amount into a bath tub. Stir each Dixie cup with a tooth pick. Then stir the bathtub with a paddle.

See which effort produces tides

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

both, of course.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:15 PM

If there were any effect on the loose liquid in the body, it would be so small that it would be drowned by the effects of hormones on blood flow, the effects of running for a bus, of getting angry, of feeling any sort of passion, of standing on your head, standing up in a hurry, having low blood pressure and oedema. And of course by the tide due to the Earth itself, which tends to pull things down rather strongly.

This is scary... I've got half of these things and faint when doing the other half because I've got the first half..... I AM a lunatic!!

In Marcy/April my blood pressure was about 3 points off the low end 'nurse the defib and hurry' stage, fainting or feeling dizzy at least once a week, usually after doing the above activities.... except the standing on my head.

3 weeks ago it was about 3 points off the opposite end of the scale.... could this be the autumnal equinox effect?? If it's any help, I've had vertigo and a certain 'stoned' feeling about my lower extremities for months now....

Maybe it's just BSE....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:38 PM

Thomas, OK I believe that you have probably dug more holes than me after all, but I cannot believe that an excavated quantity of previously undisturbed topsoil can possibly be replaced in the hole and occupy a lesser volume than previously. Amos' post above pretty much sums it up.

Tweed, I have to admit that my experience of Florida geology is in fact confined to Miami-Dade and Monroe , but, as a matter of interest, whereabouts in the state can you dig down for 18-20 feet before you encounter bedrock? Presumably that means that some people have constructed underground hurricane shelters?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 05:48 PM

Oh, Peter, you are quite right, even if you are insufferable!! :<>)

The analogy would be better if you stirred the Dixie cups with a human hair, while making the volume of water in the tub about a thousand gallons.

Anyway, I've said my piece on this one. Thaks for the puzzle, PT!




A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:21 PM

If you survey police blotters and hospital logs you will discover full and new moons have twice the business.

Fine tuning research for each tide would be difficult.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:36 PM

Amos: and there was me thinking that the 'tidal effect' was caused more by the fact that the Moon's gravitic effect was to cause an exageration of the fact that the Earth is wider around the equator that around any of the 'great circles' running through the 'poles'.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:58 PM

Hmmmmmm? Me and the Wes Ginny slide rule been out digging holes and sloshing water from one side of a wheel barrow to the other and we coillectivley have come up with the following conclusions and questions:

1. Yeah, dug dirt is bigger than undug dirt.

2. Undug dirt is conversely smaller than dug dirt.

3. Neither of us have a clue where the water goes during low tide.

4. Niether of us know anything about menstrual stuff...

and 5. ... plan on keepin' it that way, thank you very much.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 08:02 PM

Nigel:

Well, aside from any magic significance attached to the equator or the poles, you're talking about a difference in the distance to the Moon of about 1720 miles comparing pole to equator, which is about 7/10 of 1% of the value int he equation.

Don't see what difference that would make, even alowing for my oversimplification of everything.

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 09:33 PM

Well Amos I have experienced dirt loss (as well as dirt expansion)and we didn't lose any of it due to it getting lost in grass or weeds. It was all scraped off of a concrete slab and back into the hole we dug and we came up short on several occasions. Other people down here have said the same thing and they all blamed it on the moon phase too.

Murray, bring yore shovel down here to Palm Beach County and I'll show you where you can get started;~) We jet 24' long well points down prior to excavating to install fuel storage tanks and never touch a rock. Out around Belle Glade and Pahokee the cap is only about 6-8 feet down. Everything on top out there is black muck though and grows sugar cane and sweet corn pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:30 PM

Well, Tweed, I dunno. Could it be black muck losing a significant per cent of its moisture content? Or mebbe the sides of that there hole contracted. being exposed to air? It would increase the apparent size of the hole. Are you saying it _usually_ expands but in certain phases of the moon, it contracts? I don't suppose you could have the bottom in those holes sinking a little, now couldja? I've seen sinkholes in your fair State that could swallow a pickup.

Beats me, I am just guessing here.

But I will still betcha it's physics, man!


A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Tweed
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:48 PM

No, this ain't muck over here on the coast line Amos, it's sand with some organics and then hardpan. It didn't sink any I'm fairly certain of that too. Check the Farmer's Almanac as I believe the famed scientist Ben Franklin knew about this moon business too. It says in there somewhere about digging fence posts during full and new moons and what to expect! ;~)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:25 PM

Well, how do you account for it? Moondust? I am not about to argue with so learned a luminary as Doctor Franklin, but...well, I'd like to see a controlled study, by gum! LOL!

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:05 AM

Without getting into any controversy over physics and/or metaphysics, I post these for general interest and also the latter for LtS, maybe the full moon suggestion might help?

UK-cranosacral bio-something or other (forgot to write it down)

And, this from a site about Hinduism:

The Human body... is constituted majorly of water. As such, the phases of the moon affect the water within the human body. Mental Institutions have found that its patients act most irrationally during times of full moon.

The ancient Hindus noted the same influence of the moon on the human mind and thus encouraged fasting during times of full moon in order to reduce the amount of water in the body. Thus the moon is truely the "Residing Deity Of The Mind".

kat

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:07 AM

Sigh....

Which Mental Institutions? Which patients? Under what observed conditions? How many? When? Compared to what?

(We just want da facts, ma'a'm...just da facts....).

If there really were such a correlation, which I doubt, would it be tidally based? Or a sleep disruption pattern caused by higher light levels effecting hypersensitive disturbed people? Or just some sort of cyclical pattern that only coincidentally matches the lunar cycle?

Ya know people have demonstrated for centuries that they can found huge organizations on highly irrational bases. I offer the CIA and the Church of Rome as two handy examples. Yet neither seems to lack funding or followers.



A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:09 AM

One Word: Menses.

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:06 AM

Moontime, if you please.:-)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:52 AM

An article culled from the Daily Telegraph 17 May 2000

Many scoff, but research links erratic behaviour and illness to the lunar cycle. Stephen Armstrong reports
Tomorrow night, there will be a full hanging in the sky and, across Transylvania, Romanian peasants will bolt their doors, take crosses out of drawers and load their trusty shotguns with silver bullets. In Britain's sprawling cities and well-tended country lanes, however, we will simply turn in and sleep comfortably. If we give a thought to the superstitions Romanians, it will be one of contempt. "The full moon?" we will scoff. "What possible damage could that do?"
And yet, civilised reader, perhaps we should be less cynical. Research over the past few years has suggested that the full moon may, indeed, have some effect on our health and emotional wellbeing. There are instances of erratic behaviour, poor health, emergency call-outs for GPs and even fertility anomalies, all potentially linked to the lunar cycle. Despite all the noise that our modern world creates some experts are now arguing, we would do well not to ignore the softer sound of nature s own cycles.
Philip Howard is director of Solemn Mass for a Full Moon in Summer, which opens tonight at the Barbican in London. "Our play is about the power and emotion that people experience on the night of a full moon, so perhaps we were paying more attention to its effects during rehearsal than most people normally do," he says. "None the less, when the play's regional opening in Edinburgh took place on the night of a full moon, all of the cast felt a charge in the air. It was a powerful first night, and we all commented on it. We're hoping it will have the same effect on the cast."
There is little doubt that the full moon can affect people's behaviour. Consultant psychiatrist Dr Raj Persaud says that most psychiatrists have treated at least one or two patients who appear to have been affected by the moon. In forensic psychiatry, in particular, there are cases where people who behave dangerously are far more agitated at the time of a full moon. Psychiatric hospitals all over the country increase security according to the lunar cycle. The best known examples of such lunatics — the word is derived from the Latin for moon — are Christopher Gore who, in 1992, began a sentence at Broadmoor for killing his parents and two others on full moon nights. Charles Hyde's chilling series of full moon murders in the late 1880s inspired Robert Louis Stevenson to write Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
However, is it simply the case that the insane see the full moon and respond accordingly, or is there a real link between the lunar cycle and lunacy? The British Psychological Society says that the effect of the full moon is something it is often asked about, but none of its members has pursued any research into the subject.
The possibility of a real link lies in the area of physical health. Between 1989 and 1991, a Bournemouth GP,Dr Peter Perkins, and a local nursing home matron, Linda Brownlie, conducted a 24-month research project to confirm their hunch that the full moon had an effect on the rate of GP call-out.
"I'm part of a GP call-out rota of nine doctors who look after 20,000 patients," Dr Perkins explains. "I was curious why some nights were busier than others when there was no obvious reason — it wasn't a bank holiday or a Saturday night or anything. I found a study of about 50 years ago which linked post-operative haemorrhaging with the full moon, and I started to wonder. We compared the rate of calls to 79 doctors with the lunar cycle, and we found emergency calls increased by three per cent at the time of the full moon."
Dr Perkins also points to other research in the area — a Canadian team proved that women's menstrual cycles (in cases where no birth control pills were used) could be linked to the full moon. In China, a similar survey proved the cycles were linked to the new moon. In the mid-Eighties, doctors at St Mary's Hospital in Portsmouth researching prostate problems noticed a significant link between the new moon and urinary retention, while a Polish project claimed a link between birth-rate and the full moon.
"Although there needs to be more work in the area, the latest hypothesis is a tidal theory, based on the moon's gravitational pull affecting intracellular fluid in a part of the hypothalamus called the supra chiasmatic nucleus," Dr Perkins explains. "The hypothalamus is the part of the body that regulates body behaviour, sleep and temperature regulation and it links in with various diurnal patterns. It is possible that changes in the nucleus could affect body health."
However, it is clear that the mainstream medical establishment remains wary of investigating the possible links between health and the full moon. So it's up to us: as you clamber into bed tomorrow night, stop for a second and see how you feel. Write it down. Then, around the new moon in a fortnight's time, do it again. You may be able to find that you can identify those mysterious mood swings you've been having, after all.


Nigel (bold text highlighted by me)

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 09:48 AM

Hey Nigel, you win the first "scientific reference to the topic under consideration!!!!!" prize.

Many thanks. yours, Peter

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:00 AM

Nigel:

I don't think Doctor Parkins has done the math, frankly; but I concur with Peter that finding a reference to some kind of statistics is excellent progress. The journalist doesn't seem sure whether it's the new moon or the full or the harvest that bothers folks.

A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:08 AM

The tidal effects are there (in principle) for the human body has mass. However, the tidal effects due to my computer next to me are much larger, not to forget my keyboard. They all exert more force on me than the moon does. Much too small to be of any significance. Some of the theoretical explanations cited above just hope that their readers don't know enough to laugh out loud.

Lunar phase effects are something very different. The amount of light at night differs a lot and that could in principle have an influence upon the incidence human activities needing more or less light. If there was such an influence it could easily be smaller now due to our growing independence of moon light level since many decades.

Contrary to popular belief, subjective experiences and some postings above, there is close to nil support for lunar phase influences on human behaviour from a very large number of studies. How are these studies done? For instance and mostly, like Donuel recommends: If you survey police blotters and hospital logs you will discover full and new moons have twice the business. Only that what Donuel thinks would be found isn't.

The persistence of (not only) Donuel's belief in humans contrary to data won by counting and comparing is in my eyes the most interesting aspect in this discussion. Many surveys have been done in the very same wards in which e.g. the nurses said they knew for sure that there was e.g. an excess of births. A look at the very same data from which they formed their impression showed that what they knew just wasn't there.

It has been done worldwide, with data across decades for a whole country, with many dependent variables (murder, births, lunacy,...). Nothing, or, perhaps, a very tiny effect.

A metaanalysis of all available studies at that time:
Rotton and Kelly, Much ado about the full moon, Psychological Bulletin 1985, 97, pp. 286-306.
I haven't seen new research sionce than that add something new to the conclusions of the authors.

Two of the factors that contribute to the belief of a correlation in absence of a real correlation:
(1) Humans often do not know exactly when there is full moon or not. They often also consider the night before and the night after as 'full moon'. Now that's three nights instead of one and if you compare the number of incidents on three nights with 1/28 you get a spurious excess of hits.
(2) Some studies with positive results have made a fatal mistake: They looked at data only from a short time and overlooked a counfounding. Since the moon phase is close to being a multiple of the number of days in a week, when the full moon in one month is at a weekend, the next full moon probably is as well. It is well known that suicides, murders, onset of psychiatric admission etc. vary largely with the day of the week, more of those incidents happening at the weekend. If you now look for moon influences over a period of let's say three months, all full moons during that period might have been midweek or weekend. You'd publish then as a moon phase effect what has its origin with the weekly ups and downs of human activity. Any moon phayse study below 18 months observation time has to be discarded for that reason.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:20 AM

Wolfgang does the math! While I have no idea what a counfounding is, everything else he writes above is delightful in its clarity and factual orientation.

Thanks, buddy!


A

Subject: RE: BS:Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: HuwG
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 11:50 AM

My two pennorth of unscientific research in the digitrad : Just as the tide was turning

(Original work by Mr/Mrs/Ms Trad, this version by Shirley Collins). Deconstructing the lyrics suggests that the subject, although with ample cause for regret (death of, or prolonged absence of, spouse) gives way to fits of melancholia only at either high or low tide in May, about a month before the summer solstice. The fact that the birds were singing at the time is probably an artefact which can be discarded for the purposes of this research.

There is a degree of inaccuracy in the data; the tide actually advances by about an hour each day, so the lyrics should read, "Twice point zero four one (rounded) each day returning"

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 03:57 AM

Thanks, Amos. As for you not knowing 'counfounding', sorry, my mistake. I have misspelled the word 'confounding', but since even with the correct spelling the word may be unknown here's what it is:

Undesired factors that additionally differentiate the experimental and control conditions are called confounding factors

It is an often overlooked problem that arises if you vary one factor and another factor (you even may not have thought of) is covaried as well. Then the result could be due to the factor you are interested in or to something very different. The validity of your conclusions could be in jeopardy.

An example from another field: There is a small but significant excess of incidence of schizophrenia among those born in winter (6 winter months compared to 6 summer months). Nobody believes that winter/summer itself is causal or that the sun signs of winter cause more schizophrenia. So the winter/summer difference must be confounded with another (not yet identified) variable: differences in food intake (varying with time of the year) of mothers during pregnancy, differences in first experiences in cold/warm times (the first steps of summer borns will be in summer which is a much better time for learning to walk), differential birth rates of different social backgrounds (in Germany, e.g., the nine-month-after carnival baby boom nearly exclusively happens among the unskilled workers)....

A true experiment would unconfound these factors by random assignement of participants to the conditions. So one half of the participants would have to give birth in winter and the other in summer. Describing that scenario suffices to make clear why a true experiment on this field should and will never be run. In many areas using real life data, true experiments cannot be done and, therefore, confounding is a big problem for real life data gathering.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:39 AM

There's another musical contribution to the discussion here: Wait for the Tide. By the way, I'm curious to know who added the chords, since as far as I know the song hasn't been recorded. And the chords aren't quite right, either.

I'm not going to add anything to the scientific aspect of this debate because (a) I think the answer is Yes, and (b) I can't prove it. But I didn't read carefully enough to see if anyone mentioned that tides do NOT depend solely on the moon. First of all, there is a significant solar component to the tides, and second of all, there is an even greater effect of local geography.

For an extreme example, it was believed for centuries that the level of the Pacific was about 20 feet higher than the level of the Atlantic, based on observations at the isthmus of Panama. For this reason, many otherwise intelligent and well-educated people thought that construction of a canal there would lead to terrible flooding and was doomed to failure. It wasn't until 1850 that the survey for the Panama Railroad (forerunner of the canal) found that the tides on the Pacific side of the isthmus are very large (up to 20 feet), while on the Atlantic side, about 50 miles away, they're negligible. This is what led to the mistaken belief. Mean sea level on both sides, is, of course, the same. (My source for this is the wonderful book "Brave Companions" by David McCullough.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 08:47 AM

Why are the tides different on the Pacific Side from the Atlantic? We are only talking 30 miles. yours, Peter T. (tidal thread drift)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 08:59 AM

It's probably not the lunar vector of the tide that accounts for the difference but the surge vector. The Pacific has much longer fetch of uninterrupted movement of water -- in other words undisrupted acceleration--before it reaches the measuring point.

The Atlantic is much more broken up geographically with a much shorter fetch.

That's just a guess, though.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Trevor
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:15 AM

Why, when the moon comes round once every twenty four hours, are there two high tides?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:26 AM

Roughly: one tidal wave on the side where the moon is (stronger pull on the water than on the earth below)
the other tidal wave on the opposite site (stronger pull of gravitation on the earth than on the water on that side)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:43 AM

It is a gigantic oscillation -- every action has a reaction, y'know. Simplified version. Plus, our own lady Earth turns her face away from the moon 12 hours later, not twenty-four.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 10:11 AM

A site on misconceptions about tides

A link in that site even takes you to a more technical treatise, Myths About Gravity and Tides answering e.g. the question how strong the tides are in a human body: the tidal stretch of a human body is a million times smaller than an atom. Not much left for mystery.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 11:33 AM

Here's the answer in terms of N (newtons), a measure of force. One newton is about the amount of force exerted by a Big Mac burger falling to the floor from a standard table.

Specifically, Earth's, Sun's and Moon's average gravitational pulls on a 80 kg person on the surface of Earth are about 785 N, 0.47 N, and 0.0027 N, respectively. Now, since Earth is in a free fall about Earth-Moon center of mass, which in turn is in a free fall about the Sun-Earth-Moon center of mass (located inside the Sun), no scale would register the last two pulls. To better see it, remember that if you were standing on a scale inside a freely-falling elevator or orbiting space shuttle, the reading on the scale would be zero, and you would experience apparent weightlessness.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:12 PM

An excellent article, Wolfgang. I knew that the Mudcat Savant Squad (MSS) would produce the goods. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 12:19 PM

Whilst one is pondering the perhaps imponderable, a further tune worth the listen                                                                                                                                                                                                

MOSTLY WATER
by Bap Kennedy
Originally transcribed by [e-mail]
Amended by Chris Darden

Capo 2
G   D    C    x2

G             D
Shout all you want
            C
It doesn't matter
G            
Don't you know that
D             C
I am mostly water
G          D
Seventy percent
C

Don't worry about the rent
G                D          C
The rest of me is finding it harder

G   D    C



G            D         C

Why are you always realistic

G            D         C

Why do you always go ballistic

D                   C

The little things go wrong

D                        C

We're here and then we're gone

D             C

You go on and on

D

Come on, come on, come one, now

G             D

Shout all you want

          C

It doesn't matter

G             D

Don't you know that

            C

I am mostly water

G          D

Seventy per cent

C

Don't worry about the rent

G                D          C

The rest of me is finding it harder



Instru: G D C x2

       D C D C

       D C D



G                D               C

This could be my last day I'm too young

G                   D                C

There'll be thousands more just like this one

D                   C

The little things go wrong

D                C

You just go on and on

D                      C

We're here and then we're gone

D

Come on, come on, come one, now

G            D

Shout all you want

          C

It doesn't matter

G             D

Don't you know that

          C

I am mostly water

Shout all you want

It doesn't matter

Don't you know that

I am mostly water

G   D    C    G (end)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 03:37 PM

From what I remember of the Oceanography course I studied with the Open University - excellent course, excellent text books (which are across the room and my laptop is on my lap) - tides in various seas are constrained by the local structure - the waves do not simply go up and down like the white of an egg with no shell (the yolk being the solid Earth). In the semi-enclosed North Sea for example, the tidal waves rotate around a number of nodes. In the almost enclosed Mediterranean, the tidal range is constrained in its action. The Atlantic side of the Panama isthmus is actually in the semi-enclosed Caribbean, while the western side is in the open ocean. This would affect the range of the tides. And the time of maximum tide on each side.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Are Human Beings Tidal?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:04 PM

Ooh this does complicate matters a bit.....or maybe it explains why people on the west coast of North America have a reputation of being unbalanced extremists.

Diurnal tides have 1 high and 1 low per day. They are found in Australia, Antarctica, and the Gulf
of Mexico.

Semidiurnal tides have 2 equal highs and lows each day. They are found in the Atlantic and
Indian Oceans.

Mixed tides have two unequal highs and lows each day. They are found in the Pacific Ocean.