BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?

Subject: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM

A not inconsiderable amount of virtual ink has been expended on presenting some very cogent arguments from both sides in this serious debate. Has anyone changed sides as a result of any of this?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: khandu
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM

No. My mind has not been changed.

k

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Troll
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

Greg, I would say probably not. We all seem to follow pretty much the same patterns no matter what the subject is politically. The Democrats are good and noble, the Republicans are evil and greedy (or is it the other way 'round?) and neither side can ever understand why the other side can't see and embrace their point of view because...well I mean, just read this article...how can you NOT accept...what's WRONG with you?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM

Not me...but are you sure there are only two sides, Greg? Personally, I belong to the "Bush is an idiot asshole, "elected" by a minority, who is starting a war for his own selfish reasons; Saddam is a vicious murderer who wouldn't live up to an agreement if his life dependented upon it; and support the troops who aren't responsible for the actions taken by politicians and will do their best to minimize the loss of innocent life" side.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:21 AM

artbrooks: I appreciate there are many possible positions...OK I shouldnt have said "two sides", perhaps that should have been "many sides".Same question though, has anybody changed position as a result of the arguments on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

I found the Amnesty International description of torture and abuse of the Iraqi citizentry pretty persuasive, and it reinforces my belief that the world will be better without a dictator of Hussein's stripe in power there. As to the war itself, I abhor it.

Troll, I'd like to think issues make a difference in my responses. I have weighed both sides of the arguments. I have serious problems with both Saddam Hussein and George Bush as individuals, let alone as leaders. I despise the solution of war, and I despise the solution of terror and it seems to me that both these men espouse both those things; but I am not in the hot-seat. Hussein doesn't seem to mind having blood on his hands. Bush acts as though he does but I am doubtful of his sincerity.

If the assholes-that-be will not turn away from armed engagement, let us pray it is brief.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

No. The Iraqi people,and the world, will be better off without Saddam. If Bush is right, and they do find large stores of weapons of mass destruction, and proof that Saddam planned to use them, I would expect that the "ass-hole" callers will apologize for their remarks. If Bush is wrong, they certainly won't have him to revile much longer. Tony Blair either.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:32 AM

DougR: neither you nor Bobert need to answer this question!!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Beccy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

I haven't changed my mind. I did my own reading, my own research and decided who I believed in the war of words.
I support the incursion into Iraq. I pray that it liberates the Iraqi people. I pray that there are few lives lost on either side. I pray that it is over quickly. Above all, I pray that Saddam Hussein shows rare sense and removes himself to exile with his monstrous children before any of those other things become necessary.

By my count, he has about 34 hours to do so...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM

It won't matter if he does, Beccy. NPR just reported Ari Fleischer as saying that Bush et al would not rule out military action BEFORE the 48 hours are up!

Greg, no, my mind has not changed. I would prefer the two megalomaniacs duke it out, personally, though, and leave the rest of us out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:32 PM

Last night's Charley Rose had four men on. One, Leslie Gelb, thinks of the inevitable conflict as the right war, but that the administration used a wrongheaded approach, with shortsighted diplomatic tactics; another, Jonathan Schell, deplored the entire war, arguing that we unleash what we know not; two correspondents in the field, one of them Jewish, think of it as an effort well on its way, one of them saying that it will be over fast. (All of them agree that we will NOT find Saddam.)

As we know, just as is true on the Cat, there's a lot of disagreement out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:32 PM

I have, I started out in support of the US & UK stand in getting this matter to the attention of the UN. They succeeded in doing that and managed to get the Inspection Teams back into Iraq. I then supported the view that if force was to be used it should be used under the auspices of a UN coalition.

The "usual suspects" (incidently, Iraq's main weapons suppliers) then started their spoiling tactics within the UN - France then stopped the diplomatic process stone dead by making the statement that it would veto any second resolution - irrespective of content. From that point onward, the UN lost all credibility.

The stance of the US & UK has throughout been constant - I now fully back the course of action they propose to disarm Iraq and force Saddam Hussein and his Ba'athist regime out of power in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

two correspondents in the field, one of them Jewish, think of it as an effort well on its way, one of them saying that it will be over fast.

Just curious Ebbie, as to why you think it's relevant whether a reporter is Jewish?

BTW, according to polls published in the Jewish press, the American Jewish community supports the war, and opposes the war, in almost identical percentages as the general population.

Calling attention to someone's religion, when it is not relevant to the question at hand, is a tactic of someone out to create or reenforce hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM

Bush has also said that even if Saddam goes into exile, military intervention will still be required to remove the Ba'ath Party. Shrub will get his war, one way or another. So no, I haven't changed my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: GUEST, herc
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:31 PM

greg: Listening to folks on here greatly slowed my momentum (inspired, I learned today on NPR, only by primitive, Freudian impulses: phallic images and all that) toward support for armed intervention. I was all against it until yesterday. Nothing has changed of course, except the circumstances. We are where we are (by a long string of great failures), and I'm on board. Reading people's opinions on mudcat gave me a lot to think about after 9/11, and probably affected my opinions quite a bit. So, no, I do not think it was all useless "Yes," "No," "Yes," "No," "Yes," "No," "Yes," "No" babbling.

I was ready to tease gnu today about the Canadian government's decision to stay out, but I've decided that was not necessarily the wrong decision, either. I'll avoid thread drift on that one.

(btw, I did thank you long ago for refering me to facing the atlantic about six months ago, but I doubt you caught it. It was a great read.)

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: GUEST, herc
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

Lurk: If I were Saddam, I would take Bush up on his offer and tell him my extended family and I have chosen Palm Springs.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

I have changed my mind Greg--I no longer believe that the dialog in discussion threads on Iraq is of much value:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:35 PM

herc: glad you enjoyed "Facing the Atlantic" . Interesting, isnt it?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM

Do you grow up with a "rich kid/also bully?" There were kids who were one or the other perhaps, but occasionally you found the one who was both. He is now the President of the United States. There was never any greater satisfaction than nailing these clowns because they caved beautifully, but we have a problem here. Like any rich bully there is no way to call the bluff so it often comes down to the fight at the end before they collapse. But since Bush isn't the one fighting here, he truly has little to fearexcept not being re-elected.

The war will happen. If it goes badly in lives lost and/or money spent, he will not be re-elected. If it goes well, we have more young men and women left alive on all sides and are stuck with this Constitution trampling, mother fucking, piece of worm shit for another 4 years. I cannot turn away and from what I believe, that lives come first, but gawd, I wish I could. Megalomaniac worldleader with WMD's? The Prick from the Sticks is at the top of that list.

May it end quickly.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM

Calling attention to someone's religion, when it is not relevant to the question at hand, is a tactic of someone out to create or reenforce hatred. Not always true, Guest- He was the one who said it so he must have thought it had some relevance, if only as to what listeners might think of his bias either toward or against our country's plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

Well, Spaw and Ebbie, shall I count both those as "No"?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Marion
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM

Somewhat relevant:

I used to believe that people should vote their conscience, i.e., that those who thought Ralph Nader would make the best president should vote for him.

I now think that people who said "vote for Gore, the important thing is to keep Bush out of office" were right after all.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:03 PM

Spaw:

I have always believed that lives came first. The callousness with which both leaders destroy lives is enough to make me hurl.

The problem that makes me lose sleep at night is "lives when?. In this respect, I sympathize with Bushwah even while detesting him as a self-serving incompetent.

DougR, if the evidence you predict actually comes to light -- and it is not planted by Bushwah's bullboys -- my aplogy will be on a thread within 48 hours.

But I predict that it will not be necessary.

May the good Lord, whoever he is, make it brief.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

My brilliant but fascist cousin has been trying for months to convert this lefty. The only thing we can agree on is that somebody ought to shoot Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:20 PM

It was said on various news souces that most of the world does not trust the shrub and so will not believe him even he claims to have found WMD in Iraq. Likewise there are many who will not believe he would not be behind any terrorist attacks on American soil to further his maniacal agenda. Let alone the very real concerns about actual backlash from around the world.

Spaw, I like the way you called it and I do hope that it is short and that it helps to topple both regimes, there and here.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:33 PM

Yes, Greg F. NO

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Deda
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:40 PM

I changed my mind. As most of you know, I have a daughter and grandson who live in Israel. A year ago, when I read Jeffrey Goldberg's NYer piece about Iraq, Saddam, the Kurds, and Al-Qaeda, not to mention Saddam's ambitions to rid the world of Israel, I thought we should take him out. But I can't stand Bush, and I personally wouldn't cross the street under his leadership. I think he's a usurper, and the worst person to occupy the Oval Office since before I was born. Maybe ever. So the more people all over the world protest against this war, and the more Bush pushes it, the less I support it, and the more I forward anti-war emails and sign petitions and support marches.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:45 PM

I'm not Greg F I'm Greg S

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:52 PM

I'm sorry, Greg S! I knew that, just had a blip traveling the neurons.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: GUEST, herc
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM

I'm surprised at you making fun of Ebbie's lisp, Mr. S.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:21 PM

hahhaha

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM

I had quite a specific aim on this thread: there are currently 436 other threads where people are expressing their opinions on Iraq....I just wanted to start this one to find out if all the earguments had made anyone change their opinions in any way. Or indeed if the developments in the situation have affected anyone, one way or the other?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:46 PM

This confirmed, imo, what I have been thinking all along as to why this war is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:57 PM

Well danged, Gregster! Me and Dougie needed reply? Well, I really thought he was gonna change at the last minute since he has argued that in the past that there wasn't going to be a war. And, as of this minute, he's correct.

But, yeah, I've changed my mind. I went from having a certain distain for Bush before this to something just short of *hatred*. That ought to count fir something, dangit! Andm once the first Iraqi woman or child is bombed to death, then I'll have to take the last step and their ain't many things or people that OI can honestly say I hate. Might of fact, hatred is something does not come easy for me. But...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: harpgirl
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM

I am imagining that Saddam's own generals will stage a coup against him and his sons. In fact, I am predicting this! We will not have to wipe out half of the country in a massive simultaneous bombing!

My worst fear is that a chemical attack will kill millions in the country and we will have to reinstate a rapid draft to replace a quarter of a million soldiers, declare marshal, law and suspend normal democratic activities as a country. I fear rationing as well and shortages. harpgrrl

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:57 PM

springhopper:

A cynic cut in my mold! Yeah, I have this growing fear that "democracy", as we know it, is soon to be replaced with martial law. And with martial law, Boss Hog will ration out goods and services as the 8working class* will be asked to produce even more to satisfy Boss Hog's appitite, much like the "horses" did in Animal Farm, while the pigs consumed, consumed, consumed....

But even if there is not a chemical episode, which I seriously doubt we will see, my fears of martial law are still very real. I think that if Bush sees poll numbers that are close in '04 he'll pull the plug then. If not, forget '08. These folks are not like any folks who have ever taken power in the US. These are dangerous people...

Opps, Bobert has just performed a major thread drift...

Sorry.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 08:54 PM

Yeh, I changed my mind. I changed it from disliking George W. Bush to depising George W. Bush to absolutely abhoring George W. Bush.

More importantly, I have changed my mind about Secretary of State Colin Powell. I used to have immense respect for the man and hoped that he would be a beacon of sanity in the Bush administration. Unfortunately, he has proven himself to be made of the same despicable stuff as Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld.

Oh! The question is, "Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?". NO!

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 08:59 PM

No, I have not changed my mind one bit. I continue to believe that bombing the population of Baghdad is the worst possible way to try to get Saddam out. I continue to believe that this "war" is a grab for oil and world dominance. I continue to believe that Bush is not our legitimate President, and that he should get the hell out of Al Gore's house. I continue to believe that he is going to unleash a shit storm of unimaginable proportions, and that we'll all suffer for it.

But I do agree, in retrospect, that voting for Nader was a big mistake.

It's all bad, and depressing in the extreme.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:57 PM

Guys, the only place to find hope is in facing the present first.

If this war is inevitable, let us try to steer its outcome in a positive direction. While the passge is too horrible to even have nightmares about, where do we go from here? This is something like trying to envision a Marshall Plan while watching the Maginot line go down, but we've all been through a lot of history.

I would like to see Iraq take a proud placeamong the community of nations because of its unique heritage as, probably, the birthplace of Western civilization, the mother of Western tongues and the fountainhead of agricultural knowledge as well as much else.

As such it would rightly attract more tourists than Paris, if the identitiy of the nation, historically, were properly promoted. Given such a postion from which to communicate, and the prosperity it by natural rights should be enjoying from its own place and resources, the chances are that in fact it could act as beacon of balance and intelligent organization to other Islamic states all through the Middle East.

That would be worth pushing. Any ideas out there?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:31 PM

Amos I agree that Iraq represents a unique opportunity in the region, it has a relatively educated populace a rich history and abundant resources. It would also be nice to get some measure of vengance for the brave Iraqis who were slaughtered, while America looked on, in 1991. Helping Iraq become a democracy could rank among the greatest accomplishments ever for a US President. I have very grave doubts that the Bush Administration has the diplomatic skill to unite the factions in Iraq. They alienated so many of their allies with swagger and uncalled for insults. But maybe, just maybe, after the war Rumsfeld and his buddies will let Colin Powell do his job.

I have changed my mind numerous times on this issue. From moderately for intervention to completely against. Now that the die has been cast I support Mr. Bush because there is a huge job to do and he will need all the help he can get. I'd like to see him fall on his face but not if it costs lives. I also support Mr. Chretien. I would have been disappointed had Canada decided to buck the UN. Canada is still helping in Afghanistan and still a loyal ally to the US, but Canada has always supported the UN and after this is over, Canada will be where she belongs, ready to help pick up the pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:15 AM

Well, Bobert, i think I'll classify that as a NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:36 AM

I've wavered - like many here, I do think Saddam is evil and the end of his regime would be a good thing for a country which, as Amos says, cradled civilisation between the Tigrus and Euphrates.
Nevertheless, think that Bush and his cronies are also despicable. Their hypocrisy, megalomania and greed have strengthened my conviction that the coming war against Iraq is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:47 AM

Teribus

"The "usual suspects" (incidently, Iraq's main weapons suppliers) then started their spoiling tactics within the UN"

Look back at the number of vetoes cast by different countries at the UN in the past and you might have a different idea about who the usual suspects are when it comes to spoiling tactics...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:42 AM

Up to 2002:

5 chinese vetoes
18 French
32 Britain
76 USA
121 USSR/Russian

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM

Thanks wolfgang. Just a note that practically all the russian vetoes came before the break up of the soviet union. They have rarely used the veto since then.

bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:52 AM

Bagpuss,

Since it's conception there have been 252 vetoes cast by permanent members of the Security Council, their distribution is as follows:

Tiawan (sat in China's place originally) - 1
Peoples Republic of China - 4
France - 18
United Kingdom - 32
United States of America - 76
USSR/Russia - 121

Your point was?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:03 AM

My point was that it is the USA and to a lesser extent Britain who seem to use their veto to scupper the will of the UN. But of course all of the US and GB vetoes have been reasonable, and the French one was unreasonable... In a fair few of the votes that the US vetoed, the vote was unanimously in favour of the resolution other than the US veto. Sounds like spoiling tactics to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:05 AM

Bagpuss,

Our posts must have crossed,

Neither Russia, France or Britain has used its power of veto since the demise of the USSR. Since that time the veto has only been used on six occasions, twice by China and four times by the USA.

That means that the bulk of vetos used were cast during the "cold war" years where the US and USSR used them to block each other. The USA did not use its power of veto until 1966. Between 1966 and 1995 the USA used its veto more often than the USSR/Russia, probably because more motions were sponsored by UUSR/Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:10 AM

I wouldn't say that I have changed poles on this - and I have not followed the Iraq threads on Mudcat very much. However, what I have read has all been very useful to me in that it is an open discussion. There are people who's viewpoint I respect, and their opinions expressed here all have some influence on my views. My opinion would be a thinner thing without the Mcat threads. So yes - I'd say the threads have changed my mind - by making it a slightly more informed mind.

Cheers all.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: clansfolk
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:22 AM

The 2 "B"s lead our young into war - but leading from the back! Maybe they might be a bit slowing in making war if they were at the front?

No I haven't changed my mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: AKS
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:57 AM

No change, I still think that if the US want to invade Iraq and kick out its present regime,

1) it will be a relatively easy mission, no doubt,

2) but the US (or rather the rest of the world) will be facing the problem how to introduce some basic elements of democracy to establish a widely enough acceptable government to prevent god-knows-how-long-lasting chaos or, even worse, civil war(s) in Iraq - not to mention what 'troubles' may indirectly be caused in the neighbouring countries,

3) while Al Qaeda and other 'networks' like it (weren't they named enemies in the war against terrorism in the first place?!) remain intact, though more motivated on vengeance, and thus more severe a threat to the US, the coalition and their citizens than before, probably severer than Saddam's Iraq ever would (have) be(en).

AKS

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

Yes I have changed my mind - I was uncertain at first about the morality and legallity, the arguements have convinved me that this war is an evil neccessity.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

No change, except that the facts presented in these discussions have perhaps deepened my opposition to Western military imperialism.

AKS - the biggest problem America will face in introducing Iraq to "some basic elements of democracy" is that you can't teach what you truly don't know.

However, that scenario is highly unlikely - US military tradition is to pull out as soon as it's economic/oil interests are secured, leaving the conquered people in chaos and their less high-and-mighty allies to bury the dead and clean up the mess. I suspect the same will happen in Iraq.

This US administration cares NOTHING for the processes of 'democracy', as evidenced by their trampling of the UN and international law.
Murderous fascists masquerading as proponents of freedom and democracy for the sake of economic gain? Sorry bout the rant, but the blindness and stupidity of war and the lies which support it can really infuriate me, when I let myself go there!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:05 PM

Well, Dayla, lets look at some facts: the US rebuilt Europe and Japan after World War II, rebuilt Korea after the Korean War, was forced to leave Vietnam, rebuilt Kuwait after the Gulf War, is still in Afganistan, and that war isn't finished. Care to be more specific about US military tradition is to pull out as soon as it's economic/oil interests are secured?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:41 PM

Nope. I still think war is a shit option. I still think it's the only option, unfortunately... :(

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:40 PM

YES or NO will do(with maybe a little explanation). I'm just trying a little survey here. There are currently 238 other threads for expressing you no doubt heartfelt opinions on the war in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone changed their mind about Iraq?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:53 AM

I don't know whether you are going to count my vote as a Yes or a No, Greg, so I have to explain a bit more.

Yes, for during the last months I have changed slowly from undecided to a No to this war, mainly due to a dearth of convincing evidence from both the British and the USA governments. From press conference to press conference I considered their arguments weaker and weaker. And the frequent change of main reasons given for this war hasn't enhanced my confidence in both governments.

No, if you mean Mudcat's discussions have changed my mind. I didn't find the arguments from the contra-war side very convincing here. Too many of the No-people argue in a too emotional way for my personal liking (though I may be in a minority for wanting to hear arguments instead of emotions even in questions of death or war). Surely not the only one, but a notable exception for me on the contra-side is McGrath who always argues in addition to gut feelings. However, on the balance of the posts, if my only source of information would have been Mudcat I might have come out on the pro-side or still undecided.

Wolfgang