BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?

Subject: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:51 PM

The heading says it all. When referring to "the United States", is it right to treat it as singular, as being one country, or as plural, by reason of the actual name of that country?

The former sounds more natural, but the latter seems more linguistically logical.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:00 PM

The Name of the country is The United States of America. It's a single entity.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:08 PM

"The United States is" would be correct. So would "The US is."

"The United States are" is incorrect and sounds priggish.

"The States is" would be correct when refering to the US as a country; "the States are" would be correct when refering to a bunch of the political subdivisions which make up the US.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:33 PM

The States along the Eastern seaboard are not so sure that inviting the others in was a good idea. But as has already been tried at war, the United States is one, for better or for worse. And it will probably remain so for the foreseeable future. Except for Oregon and Washington, perhaps.

A

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:36 PM

Actually, it wasn't the states along the Eastern seaboard, it was the damnably lax immigration policies of the American "Indians."

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:41 PM

Is you sure? I are confused.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 05:43 PM

If we ever get a United States of Europe, I think you can guarantee the term will be plural.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:14 PM

you can say "The United States is"...but you can also say "the states are" when needing to refer to them as separate entities. "United" is the item that makes it singular.

The US is at war.

The states are not all happy about it.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:42 PM

Well I use the Us of A - and I don't give a cuss how "correct" it is.

Ah If only Cornwallis & Howe had been a better generals, and had been supported properly by Parliament !!!


Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:28 PM

Gareth, most unfortunate that the guillotine didn't make it across the channel!

Seriously, there is a difference between Us'ns and the UK'ers:
U. S.- The army is ....was
UK- The army are ....were
This distinction with collective nouns shows up frequently in writings from the two countries.

Was (wuz) and were (wur, wear)- lots of us make mistakes orally in using these verbs, probably not as much as in the past. Also some dialectical usages that are locally preserved.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:59 PM

"Ah If only Cornwallis & Howe had been a better generals, and had been supported properly by Parliament !!!"

you mean you'd LIKE to be responsible for adminstering this mess from WAY over there?

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:07 PM

I call it America and invite everyone on any American continent to share in the name if they choose...doesn't that include Greenland? America is a concept...United States sounds ugly. mg

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:20 PM

"...most unfortunate that the guillotine didn't make it across the channel!

It did. There is a good case for claiming it was invented in Scotland and exported to France.

If the war back then had gone the other way, and the British and the colonials who backed them, had won, I think the chances are that the rest of North America would now be predominantly French speaking. And referred to as "the EU".

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:28 PM

Henry Clay, Daniel Webster and their lot were the last influential group to insist thar "United States" is plural. Nowadays, I'm the only person I know of who says "these United States"; kinda old fashioned and contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:44 PM

"doesn't that include Greenland?"
....not in my geography book...

"America" is a funny name, which sort of got applied and used before it got well settled. It 'sort of' refers to most of the Western Hemisphere, but usually just to the USA, which is the only country which incorporated it. I'd like to have been in the discussion groups trying to decide on a group name for 13 odd states trying to creat some sort of 'union'....I believe "Columbia" was seriously considered before it was taken.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: The Walrus
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 08:49 PM

McG of H,

"...If the war back then had gone the other way, and the British and the colonials who backed them, had won, I think the chances are that the rest of North America would now be predominantly French speaking. And referred to as "the EU"..."

Why so?

The French had, effectively been elbowed out of Canada years before (THE AWI was an attempt to avoid paying taxes, to pay -retrospectively - for the American bit of that war, after all).
With no need for fleets patolling the American station, with the American woods providing timber for shipyards to build 'Humphry's' Type frigastes for the RN (and with the crews to man them), with American supplies cut off to the French Republicans and Napoleon and with additional regiments recruited in the Americas...are you sure there wouldn't be bits of Normandy, Anjou, Poitiers etc. speaking English (or at least Franglais) and calling themselves British?

(Hey, they've been the enemy for the better part of the last thousand years:- I can dream can't I?


As for the original topic, there was one American historian (Shelby, Sheldon, something like that) who made the statement that before the ACW, the phrase was always "The United Stares are..." After the war, this became "The United States is..."

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Janie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:21 PM

Which reminds me....is grits (as in corn grits), singular or plural. The first time I asked what was on my plate in a southern US restaurant, the waitress responded "Them's grits, Honey." Go figure.

J.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 10:36 PM

'Tain't corn grits, them's hominy grits, bubba. Ya eat 'em with red-eye gravy or maybe a bit of good butter and a pinch of salt. Don't never eat 'em with syrup or any other long sweetin' er somebody'll grab you by the hair and wipe the floor up with ya fer insultin' the South and bein' an all-round wuss.

Ya could maybe have jes' one grit, but I don' know why ya'd wanna. Now, 'course somebody could say you got real grit, but that there grit ain't related to grits. If you got grit, you got jes' one, singular, grit. But iffen you got grits, you got a damn good feed goin'.

Then they's a newspaper called "Grit" or at least there usta be.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: mg
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 11:11 PM

Bill D., usually I don't ask for references, but I would be interested in knowing which geography book does not state Greenland is part of the North American continent. Does it just not mention it at all, or does it specifically place Greenland elsewhere? A simple Google search using the words Greenland North American continent show in the first line of the first several sources that it is considered to be in North America. Here is a Danish source: http://www.danishexporters.dk/_greenland/greenland_countryandpop.asp

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:21 AM

umm..well...I'll be danged! I have been interested in geography for 50+ years, and always knew Greenland as an island, but with that idea in front of me, it took me only 3.401 seconds to find this

I suppose that I need to read references later than my map of Gondwanaland! Fascinating....and this map shows better why it is 'technically' considered to be N. American.
Next, Canada will be arguing with Denmark over whose island it is.

gosh, I hate being wrong..*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:43 AM

"...most unfortunate that the guillotine didn't make it across the channel!
McGrath, you've hit Guillotine History right on the head. A few thoughts...

1. Gillettetine leaves scope for a thread?
2. Top head-lopper-offer Sanson is a distant
   relly, so be careful.
3. There's basic instructions for a DIY Guillotine
   on the website.

Wouldn't it take the top off your bonce?

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:35 AM

I have difficulties believing the 'it's the name of a country' argument.

Would you also say 'the United Arab Emirates is...' or would you say 'the Solomon Islands is...', 'the Virgin Islands is...' (all these are names of states).

And, by the way, how do you treat the Bahamas in this respect?

In German, we have to use the plural for the USA.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:37 AM

And in France, I presume, "les États-unis sont ..."; or can you say "l'États-unis"?

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:37 AM

Wolfgang, I beg to differ: The Virgin Islands are neither a state nor a State. There are the British Virgin Islands, and the American Virgin Islands. I know not the technical status of the British Virgin Islands, but I'm sure they are not sovereign. And the American Virgin Islands are a territory, not a State.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 11:52 AM

(After looking it up) You're right, Dave. But does that have consequences for the main question?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:00 PM

For the United States, Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says: "plural but singular or plural in construction." Oxford says: "In later use, frequently construed as a singular." The Encyclopaedia Britannica used the singular in its 1888 edition.

Wolfgang, you are correct in that most countries ending in 's' would be plural in English (but Wales is).

Some of the Latin American countries formerly used "Estados Unidos" (United States) in their names since they also were composed of "states," but I think that usage has disappeared. The United States of Colombia was formerly the correct appelation of that country.

USA? US may be singular or plural depending on context-construction- but United States of America nearly always is singular in American usage.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 12:21 PM

When the plural is singular

About differences between German and English and between American and British English.

I found it particularly interesting because in most of the examples I would have been wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 01:00 PM

Let's change it to Vespuccia ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: s&r
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 02:57 PM

If only it were as clear cut as it seems....what ever happened to the conditional subjunctive...and who cares

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 03:15 PM

the bagpipes is OR the bagpipes are ?

SORRRRRREEEEE !

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 04:09 PM

very nice link, Wolfgang...it helps me understand how certain words differ. Some things are just not easily translatable.

(We have problems here when some minority groups do not recognize and use certains verb forms...thus we get, "The boy turn around and say to his mother" ...which set(s) my teeth on edge.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:30 PM

The Netherlands are. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 05:31 PM

Languages with masc. and fem. nouns always confuse English-speakers who are trying to learn them. On the other hand, I can sympathize with the Latinos who say "my father, she ..."
Remember, in many parts of the world, english-speakers are the minority group. "So I sez to him..."

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:08 PM

www.holland.com is the official site of the Netherlands Board of Tourism. The Netherlands are but Holland is.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:25 PM

I've long believed it would make sense for the UK to revert to the original term, and to be known as "the United Kingdoms" rather than "the United Kingdom".

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 06:46 PM

Netherlands is ...at least sometimes, Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 07:27 PM

Yep, pays to look first.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 03 - 07:45 PM

But "the Low Countries" would always be "are"...

There's no logic to all this. It just happens.

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: Frankham
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 03:00 PM

McGrath, I think it depends upon who you talk to. Some down in the South here would like to think of the US as a loose confederacy of states (still!)

I tend to favor the singular.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 08:08 PM

"you mean you'd LIKE to be responsible for adminstering this mess from WAY over there?"

I'm not sure which side of the Pond this came from ...

but suppose Cornwallis and the Howes had not withdrawn like
gentlemen, and things had gone even worse. Might a more
stubborn king have poured millions in men and resources
into the colonies, only to lose the war?

Now impoverished, Britain is subject to attack -- from
America! Led by Gen. Washington, and supported by Napoleon,
the Yankee troops invade and eventually conquer. The
royal family is allowed to retire to seclusion, and the lands
become new "states" of the USA. France is given the Falkland
Islands.

How might history have been different?

India is left alone to inter-ethnic slaughter.
The Confederacy is allowed to seceed, taking with it
   the Louisiana Purchase. California is still Mexican.
Hitler drops one bomb on London and is instantly crushed.

Proposed new slogans for the five British states:

England: The Mother Country State
Scotland: We'll Lairn English Yet!
Wales: Where's the Border?
Ireland: Up the Pope!
No.Ireland: Up the Pope's!

Enquiries may be directed to Mudcat.

JOHNNY in OKC

Subject: RE: BS: US 'was' or 'were'? Which?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 09:39 PM

The Russians would have expanded their Alaska to California base and would have fought the Mexicans for California.
Argentina would defeat France in the battle for the Malvinas.