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BS: Allotments
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Subject: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 28 Aug 03 - 01:52 PM Hi guys, My girlfriend and I are planning to take on an allotment. Do any of you have your own? What advice could you give to newcommers? Also what should we be doing/ planting this time of year once we have taken it on? Any help will be most gratefully recieved. Pete and Charlotte. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Allan C. Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:13 PM There's that damned English language thing again! Can someone please explain what is meant by "allotment"? In the United States armed services, it was what you called the money that was automatically sent to a spouse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:22 PM In Indian Country in the U.S. it also means the amount of land each tribal individual was given before the rest of the reservation was taken away and given to white folks to settle (breaking treaties). There are understandably negative connotations to the word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Amos Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:28 PM Beats me!! :>) Sounds like it means an allotted parcel of gardening space. ] 1. The act of allotting: initiated the allotment of ration coupons. 2. Something allotted: had already used up their weekly allotment of flour. 3. A portion of military pay that is regularly deducted and set aside, as for the payee's dependents or for insurance. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: sian, west wales Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:38 PM I had an allotment (long strip of land, often rented from a Town Council or other public body, for planting of vegetables, etc.) some years ago. Good fun, but it was the Duffers' Allotments in town - as opposed to the Posh Allotments where they don't let you have a strip without being serious about vegetables and very, very , very tidy! (Not me!) Unless the allotments are close to where you live, make sure you have a shed for storing your tools. My allotment didn't even have running water, so we had an old hip-bath to catch rain water! I did a lot of companion planting and I 'rotated' crops religiously. I also listened VERY carefully to the old codgers on the surrounding plots - gets them on your side but you also get some REALLY good advice. You might want to think about heavy mulching, or putting down black plastic or something over the winter to get a head start on curbing next year's weeds! Throw in some flowering bulbs too so you can get some spring flowers. If it's easily accessed by vandals, don't plant pumpkins! Best of luck! sian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: alanabit Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:41 PM You are right Amos. For us Brits, it means a small patch of land, usually rented from the council, for gardeners to use. Bernie Parry's lovely song, "Man of the Earth" refers to an old steel worker who is at work in his. The word doesn't have negative connotations in our culture at all. (You'll get used to us Allan - we are all mad but we are harmless!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: jimmyt Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:43 PM I have seen these areas when travelling in UK They are always interesting to me. Seems like an idea we could use here in our overpopulated areas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Wyrd Sister Date: 28 Aug 03 - 03:07 PM Had one for some years now. Good advice from an old hand (which we didn't always follow) is to have some idea of which job you're going to do when you go round, otherwise the day disappears in pottering. To me that's half the reason for having one. At this time of year, leave marrows on doorsteps under cover of darkness - that way they can't ask you not to give any more! I have a beautiful bunch of dahlias and gladioli which were given me as we walked past the allotments in Whitby just before leaving - allotment holders are most generous! Finally, if you have kids don't plant things they don't like hoping it will be different when they've watched them grow - it isn't. And peas will never make it to the pot; they taste too good straight from the pod. Much luck and pleasure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 03 - 03:33 PM Pip rents a piece of land next to the house from a local farmer/landowner. I don't think anything or much has been planted lately - it's been more a time for harvesting and at the moment it's looking quite bare. Still, there are some runner beans, acorn and butternut squash, marrows, sweet corn, leeks and beetroot in the veg plot. Tomatoes, peppers, even a couple of aubergine elsewhere... There often seem to be a few from Mudcat talking about thier gardening experiences at the Annexe. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 28 Aug 03 - 03:42 PM At this time of year, leave marrows on doorsteps under cover of darkness You realize this was the cause of the infamous 'Boston Marrow Party' when colonials angered by the injustice of King George sending all his excess marrows to the New World dressed up as cockney greengrocers and pitched the marrows into Boston Harbour. YOu wouldn't want to repeat history now, would you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 28 Aug 03 - 04:01 PM O.k sorry about the confusion with the American couterparts to start with. Some good advice indeed. Guest, wyrd sister and Sian: What is done this time of year? What can be grown? Or should it be left till spring? Help!!!!! Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Peg Date: 28 Aug 03 - 06:58 PM Plant bulbs this fall that will come up in the spring! (daffodils, narciussus, hyacinth, tulips, snowdrops, crocus, etc.) There are also flowers you can plant by seed in the autumn, like foxgloves. It's a bit late to plant anything else; unless you will have warm weather in October in your area, in which case try some lettuces or herbs. Go online and search for "fall planting" and such; you should find plenty of advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Bill D Date: 28 Aug 03 - 07:14 PM I echo the sentiments about considering when you post, whether your question/comment will be understood, if you don't specify which country you mean...*grin* maybe just "UK" or "US" would help |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 03 - 07:44 PM Steve, Pip is looking now towards her Autumn planting. I'll try to get her to give her plans for the plot tomorrow. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:04 PM Hi Pete & Charlotte At this time of year? It's mostly clearing off harvest, storing, pickling, freezing, and jam-making ----- and, in my case, cursing the bastards who trashed half my plot earlier this year!!!!!!!! And from late September through October, clearing weeds, digging, manuring, - all building up soil fertility and condition for the new season. If you're taking on a new allotment, that's what I'd spend my time on - it'll pay dividends next year. There's lots of stuff on UK allotments and veggie growing on the web - I'm biassed - this is my plot; Yahoo group; Allotments 4 All ---- with lots of links off all three. Go for it, and enjoy! All best - Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Jon Date: 28 Aug 03 - 09:01 PM Manuring... Pip may confirm but I think ours is mostly done later - winter. It involves a trip to a place in North Walsham (about 15 mintes away). Funny little place - no sign of anyone - just an "honesty box" and plastic sacks of horse muck at about 50p per sack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: LadyJean Date: 28 Aug 03 - 10:17 PM Here in Pittsburgh PA, Homewood Cemetery rents allotments to would be gardeners. Henry Clay Frick is in Homewood Cemetery, but it doesn't seem to have had a bad effect on the soil. Of course I'd be certain to leave before dark, if I had an allotment there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Aug 03 - 10:35 PM We're just getting our second wind down here in Texas. Start in March, and everything shuts down by mid to late July. It'll be cool enough now for a good fall garden that grows through October or later; stuff should be in the ground by now (I'm doing that this weekend--had to give my foot time to heal after bunion surgery last month--I dig with my right foot, the one that was repaired.) For a wealth of wonderful organic gardening information, visit Howard Garrett's site, http://www.dirtdoctor.com. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:35 AM Pete, If it hasn't been neglected I'd suggest planting Broad Beans in November for overwintering: helps avoid blackfly later. Next season grow runner beans one end for shelter, if you can get plenty of muck grow courgettes (we've been picking about a pound a day from 4 plants for weeks), potatoes will help break up the soil if it hasn't been worked, we grow pink firapple (good for salads as well as hot and come in shapes to make Esther Rantzen giggle), for next winter grow parsnips and leeks. (We don't have an allotment now but grow all those plus carrots, peas, french beans and some herbs in our garden).Since a tree fell on our greenhouse we've given up on tomatoes. If you are lucky you can swop surplus with other plotholders who grow something different. RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:57 AM Pip didn't grow them this year but I'll second pink firapple. They really are tasty. Roger, any ideas over growing new potatoes for Christmas? We don't have problems with the main plantings but Pip has tried a couple of varieties supposed to crop then (I've no idea what they were) and they have just gone down with blight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:24 AM What are courgettes, and what is pink firapple? My tomatoes are finished, but my eggplant (aubergine) have a second life and are blooming and fruiting now that it is past the hottest days. Swiss chard is reviving. I grow all of this in a big backyard with a creek at the bottom for water once I run the pipe for my pump. Won't put creek water on the garden, just the lawn. It's an urban creek so it gets a bit thick with water plants this time of year. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:27 AM SRS - near as I can figger out 'courgettes' = 'summer squash' pink firapple is a potato variety, yes? I get jealous "listening" to UK people talk about gardening - and the variety of things available to them. and their growing seasons!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:46 AM courgettes = zuchinni Pink fir apple is a breed of potato, I believe quite an old one. They are funny knobbly looking things. here is one page |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:49 AM They do look a bit like fir cones.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:06 AM Oh and Mario, I guess the winters are just too cold where you are? There isn't a season here where Pip hasn't got something edible growing... Maybe your area has some advantages though and things we can't get. Doesn't New York state produce maple syrup for example? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:13 AM They look like sweet potatoes--but the flesh in pink fir apples is white? Solanacea--one of those interesting plant families. Tomatoes, potatoes, deadly nightshade. A new world family, for much of what we know it for. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:18 AM yup - winters too cold. hard to grow anything when the ground is frozen down 18 inches and there's a couple feet of snow on top of that.. people pick up on the maple syrup thing - but I've seen historical research that shows that birch syrup was produced in Europe for centuries - and that's just a different species; same idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:35 AM but eggplants were Old World. So are Jimson weed and Belladonna - all of them solanacea |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:45 AM I have a sacred datura (jimson weed) out in my back yard in a pot--I need to put it in the ground. Lots of seed drop below the parent plant, so I think they grow so large because the plant mass is compounded by several generations. You sure that one is Old World? I'll have to go look it up. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:04 PM both hemispheres actually for Jimson Weed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:40 PM I am glad i have started something useful here on the "cat" for a change - usually just arguments. Roger as per usual some sound advice! good to hear from you - how was Greece? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Aug 03 - 01:27 PM Yep, SRS, the flesh is white and it is a potato - I think a sweet potato is something quite different. The flesh of this one is quite firm and waxy rather than powdery. If you get the chance, try some - you may not get the yields you might expect with other potatoes, but you have something that little bit different and unlikely too be found on the supermarket shelf or even, in areas like this, from a farm shop. Taste is my judge, and to me these are worth it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Peg Date: 29 Aug 03 - 04:58 PM MMario aren;t you in western NY?? MY dad is in Elmira and has two flourishing garden plots! Lots of veggies. I have friends in Vermont who grow plenty of stuff, too. The Northeast may get cold winters but the summers are hot and we generaly get a good mix of rain and sun; noting to stop you from gardening if you want to... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: LadyJean Date: 30 Aug 03 - 12:25 AM I have a datura, but it doesn't care to bloom. Neither do my two brugemansia. Any advice?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Guest Pip Date: 30 Aug 03 - 05:28 AM Jon has mentioned my allotment on the field. I have created it to be like a 19th century potager, with narrow paths dividing the area into blocks of varying sizes. This makes life much easier as you reach the beds, harvest easier, and keep it well weeded and cared for. You can grow specific crops in each square or oblong, and rotate the crops each year. I also have one area made into a herb garden. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 30 Aug 03 - 06:45 AM Jon, I've never tried the potato at Xmas thing, I think peopel grow them in bins of soil to keep them warm?? I'm no expert, Herself does the clever stuff in the garden, I'm just allowed to do the heavy work & tend the veg. Retirement means a few moments hoeing and watering daily much less of a chore! Pete, see my Postcard from Greece thread for our June/July jaunt, off to Lesvos next Thursday for a fortnight, watch this space! RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 30 Aug 03 - 11:26 AM My datura is from the biology department fundraiser last spring at the university where I work. I'm assuming he used native seed. He thought they were hard to start, but the seeds that have dropped off of mine do start in the same pot. It would get much larger in the ground, and while it is in the pot it needs more water because it is so hot here. These grow well in the prairie and desert (I've seen them from Texas to the Sonoran desert of Arizona) so I think they have deep roots when they're in the ground. They would then need very well-drained soil and deep watering when you water--not shallow water every day, but deep every week or so until it's established. Don't fertilize it either, or you'll just push the leaves and not the flowers. It was a fairly small plant (10" tall) when it put out it's first flower. They can and do stand direct sun, but I moved mine to get a little less than sun all day, again, since it's in the pot. I have several plants to "liberate" this fall, to plant in beds so they'll establish themselves and come back next year. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Sep 03 - 09:49 PM Our gardens probably grew a lot over the weekend and we couldn't compare notes--welcome back, Mudcat! We've had rain down here in Texas, finally. Now I hope the aubergine will take off and I'll get some fall stuff planted. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Rapparee Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:00 PM Try a web search on particular veggies, preceeded by the word "heirloom" e.g., "heirloom potatoes." One place to visit is here, where you can buy a bunch of different potatoes. For those who don't know: buy some potatoes, eat some, but leave a few go to eyes and sprouts. In the Spring, cut these into quarters and plant them. You should be able to harvest the same variety you planted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Sep 03 - 11:22 PM I tossed a handful of canteloupe seeds into an unused planter a couple of weeks ago, and they all sprouted over the weekend. Stuff I tried from seed a few weeks ago withered, it was still so hot. Looks like I'll have to move some of these puppies to the garden patch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,robinia@eskimo.com Date: 02 Sep 03 - 07:22 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,robinia Date: 02 Sep 03 - 07:47 AM Not used to hearing Jimson weed spoken of with such respect! In folksong ("Young Man who wouldn't hoe Corn," sung to the tune of "Leatherwing Bat") we hear: He went to the fence and there peeked in Jimson weed grew up to his chin; Jimson weed grew so high, made this young man for to cry. The song also has a nice phrase that I haven't heard anywhere else of "giving him the mitten" -- as in Does this qualify as "thread creep"? There's also a gardening moral to the song: the lazy gardener doesn't get the girl. BTW, in Seattle we call our allotments P-patches for some reason (not peas!) that I've long forgotten. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 02 Sep 03 - 08:27 AM Peg - yes - we can garden...but not for the length of the season they have down south or in the UK. And then of course the horde of woodchucks (unfortunately not the singing variety) and rabbits don't help either. and the deer have discovered that my lilies are tasty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Peg Date: 02 Sep 03 - 10:24 AM ah yes, the critters who like to eat stuff...fencing is necessary. My father has taken to picking off rabbits with his pellet gun which I think is disgusting. There are a lot of rabbits in the suburbs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM Jimson weed is a beautiful plant. I've seen it in large rounded shrub shapes in the desert and here in Texas. Perhaps it grows more weedy in other places. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:24 PM Right. I now have a plot (Piece of land!) It is covered five feet tall in grass at the front and the last ten feet of the plot is covered in six foot tall brambles. Any good ideas of the best way to get rid of all of the grass etc and get down to a growing level. Are there machines that can be hired as roots of grass will have to be removed etc. Please help the misses is losing heart rapidly. Regards. Pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:30 PM pigs. in a pen that can be moved from area to area. they will root out the weeds, grass, etc and fertilize at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,JTT Date: 03 Sep 03 - 02:42 PM I have an allotment - 19 euro a year for a quarter-acre. At least, I've gone in on it, so I suppose my half would be 9 euro 50 cent. I've been allotting for a few weeks, but can give some tips: * Don't grow anything poisonous. I wouldn't grow datura, monkshood, delphinium or any bulb other than onions, shallotts and garlic. * Build two six-foot-by-six compost heaps side by side. * Strim the weeds, put them on the compost heap; cover the allottment in black plastic held down with bags of manure, and gradually lift up the plastic bit by bit to manure pieces. * This autumn, plant two lots of raspberries against the fences: autumn raspberries which you can eat from next year's canes, and spring raspberries, which you will eat in 2005, as they flower on the previous year's canes. * Wherever your water supply is, there plant your salads. You really don't want to haul water up to the other end of the field. * Next year, put in lots of vigorous spuds, to smother the surviving weeds. Only leave a relatively small area (near the water supply) to grow your beans, peas, salads, tomatoes, courgettes, etc. * Grow some herbs. I know it's not sensible to have them on an allotment, but really they'll keep fresh enough if you cut a load each week. And they're gorgeous. * Grow rhubarb. Even if you don't eat much, it's always a welcome present. * Grow some comfrey. The leaves, steeped in water (covered - it stinks) make a great fertiliser for watering in; the roots, simmered slowly on a double boiler in oil and then the oil strained off to be mixed with beeswax, make a great ointment for a sore back. You don't have a sore back? Come back after you've been weeding and it's got away with you. * Ask advice of the neighbouring allotment-holders, especially people from other cultures - they'll have interesting vegetables that you can swap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:32 PM Steve Benbows protege, Goats. They'll eat anything. It's the thing to do in many places here in the US, arrange to have some goats brought to the property for a day and watch them go to work. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 03 - 04:46 PM I'd assumed that keeping livestock on allotments was against the rules, but a Google.uk on "allotments + livestock" comes up with some indications that at least in some places it's OK. But I think pigs might be frowned on. I see from Google that the RSPCA has a factsheet on "The Welfare of Animals on Allotments". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gurney Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:43 AM Times change, McGrath. One of my early memories is pig-killing time at Grandad's allotment, this is urban Nuneaton, Warwickshire, circa 1947, drawing and butchering and I got the bladder to kick around. The rest of the allotment was solid pig-food, cabbage, parsnips, etc. He also kept chickens in his (council-house) back garden and went around with a barrow to collect peelings for pig-swill. An farm labourer until he married Nan. We never went hungry, and he knew where all the mushrooms grew. When I went back there 5 years ago, it was a 'distressed' area, and half the houses were boarded up. Sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:09 PM For Pete, Steve Benbow's protege Just a few ideas - from when I took over a badly overgrown couple of plots. - work out where you want beds; it's a lot easier having beds about 4 foot wide and whatever length you want. - clear the beds, one at a time; it took three years to get my "bad" plot all into cultivation. If necessary, cut the rough stuff back. And cover whatever you've not cleared with thick black plastic sheeting or some equivalent to starve the weeds of light. You have a few choices to make Organic? - my choice was to dig by hand - and remove all the grass and roots to what I grandly called my compost heap (but . . . it worked!). Don't put bindweed, ground elder, marestail in the compost heap, but anything else goes! Caveat - I enjoy digging. - rotovate - hire/borrow a rotovator; personally, I wouldn't choose this, as it chops up all the roots of the nasties, - and from each chopped bit of nasty root, another nasty grows soon --------- unless you have the permanent use of a rotovator; in which case, it's a trial of patience. Who outlasts the other? In time the weeds will give up trying! Not organic? - use roundup or similar weedkiller; follow the instructions on the pack; my only venture using this was not a success, but loads of people swear by it. But the real key, I am sure, is to get a small bit really well-cleaned and ready, before you move on to the next bit! All best - and good luck; Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:14 PM Gavin, thank you for the reply. I am currently clearing the five foot high grass into a more manageable lawn before I get cracking removing the roots. It has been a slow process. I have cleared a 10'x6' strip so far and that was monday and tuesday evenings and all done by hand with garden shears!! The ground is Bloody hard - it is difficult to get a fork or a shovel into it. I will carry on regardless though. Thanks to all who have replied in this thread. Best regards. Pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:04 PM It's best with rough or negleted ground to try of lift off the top couple of inches as turfs and put them on one side rather than try to dig up the patch with that top layer still in place. Bloody hard work either way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,JTT Date: 05 Sep 03 - 05:46 AM I know it's not eco, but two new lads have strimmed off their allotment and then burned the weeds on the spot, thus disposing of all remaining roots and seeds. On the other hand, my co-allotee had, before my time, got it rotovated, with the result that it's now a jungle of breast-high dock, nettles, thistles and rosebay willowherb, with scutch grass snaking out from under to grab you by the ankles. Mind you, it's kind of nice sitting there and drinking a cup of earl grey and noshing a brown scone and butter and honey and a banana, and watching the snow of thistledown drift slowly above us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 05 Sep 03 - 03:45 PM Just a couple of thoughts - so you have a fair few people to commiserate with, as well as lots of good ideas! Allotments 4 All - good craic! Allotments UK - Yahoo group "resurrected" from a spammed and nasty mess; good bunch of folks. The Kitchen Garden Forum - another good bunch of folks, on a forum run by Kitchen Garden magazine; and there's a good read too - hard to find in most newsagents, but there's subscription information on the web-site, so go down to your WHSmiths or whatever and black mail them into getting a few copies in every month. And one last thought - the first year is HARD. You're slaving away clearing a jungle, while all the old lads saunter in, fill a few placky bags with produce, have a cup of tea and a natter, and wander home again. Get your clearing well done - and you just might be in the same happy situation!!!!!! Good luck - Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Sep 03 - 09:47 AM You DON'T NEED TO USE ROUNDUP!!! That stuff is so noxious. Use straight agricultural strength vinegar (20%--the kitchen stuff is 5% and will turn stuff brown, but not necessarily kill it) and spray it on the weeds. Try a test area first, and be prepared to dig stuff out as it dies; vinegar doesn't stick around in the soil to keep killing things. Visit The Dirt Doctor to get a lot more organic information. The site has answers for just about anything you can think of. It's based in Texas, US, so some translation of terms may be necessary. You can join the group and write to the forum and ask your questions. (I've even set it up to display in its own window, so you won't lose your place at Mudcat! Add it to your favorites!) SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Peg Date: 06 Sep 03 - 10:43 PM Roundup has been linked to testicular cancer as well as other kinds of cancer in many studies; just type Roundup, Monsanto and cencer intro a search engine for an eyeful... anyone who is not lazy or stupid need not use any sort of herbicide for weeds...why garden at all if you just want tp spray poison on everything????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 07 Sep 03 - 12:01 PM I never said I was going to....... I have now cleared a hell of alot in a week. The five foot high grass is now a lawn and that has been raked over so it is now isolated clumps of grass. The council might be coming in to rotivate it but I ain't sure if that is a good idea. we will see. Any U.K members know any good seed merchants I can start to look up for next year? Glad thread has proved to be a gooden! Pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST Date: 07 Sep 03 - 04:47 PM A load of rollicks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 07 Sep 03 - 05:32 PM Hi Pete I use Chase Organics (the HDRA cat) myself for most things. These are some others which I've had recommended to me, or used occasionally. Edwin Tucker Terre de Semences Seeds by Size Future Foods - for all sorts of unusual stuff! Thomas Etty Have fun - a real pleasure as the evenings draw in; get the paper copies of the catalogues, and browse, and dream! All best - Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 07 Sep 03 - 06:20 PM And a bit of reassurance for Peg - I agree entirely (well, almost)! I don't have a problem with very, very, very occasional use of a shortcut. (I'd not heard of the agricultural vinegar idea - it looks like it's the other side of the pond. A quick search on Google for "agricultural vinegar UK" only gave me pickles!) The one time I used roundup was certainly not lazy. And at the time only stupid in the sense of being daftly over-ambitious, with far too small a time-window to clear some wildly overgrown land. With hindsight, fair enough - definitely stupid. Come spring digging time, I had a "dead" bed. The soil was cold, sodden, smelly, sour, thick clay - unlike any of my other beds. The only living thing to be seen - the weed roots which had survived. (And that's NOT what the label promised!) And after the extra work involved in a bitingly cold and wet February and March to recover that bed - roundup will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER appear on my plot again. Why didn't it behave as my neighbouring plot-holders (who do indeed swear by it) said it would? I neither know nor care - filthy stuff, and useless into the bargain, in my experience. Another hobbyhorse - slug pellets! At least 95% dog food and yeast extract, and 5% or less poison (and that gets washed out in the rain). A truly brilliant piece of marketing - the pellets kill the slugs (and lots else besides) for a couple of days - you see them, lots of them; then the pellets lie around for weeks, attracting and feeding newly hatched slugs, the new generation, until they're big enough for you to see - oh, and that reminds you to buy another can! Neat. Ach, I'm talking too much. Just a couple of my hobbyhorses! All best - Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Sep 03 - 06:35 PM Howard Garrett (The Dirt Doctor) just this morning on his radio program said he recommends the pickling vinegar, at 10%, for the strength of vinegar used to kill weeds. I have a 20% jug, so I'll water it down and it will last longer. He also talks about using a surfactant (soap) at the rate of about 1 tablespoon (1/2 ounce--does either of these measures mean anything in the UK?) to the gallon of vinegar. A gallon of vinegar will cover a LOT of territory. Slugs are wonderfully easy to kill if you don't mind sharing your beer. I dig a hole and sink a plastic margarine tub about half-way into the ground (keeps it from tipping if it's windy) and put an inch or two of beer in it. In the morning I dump out the beer and dead slugs and snails. I move this around the garden and do it as needed. Usually when the plants are tender young things and have just been put in the ground. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:53 PM Gavin, thank you for your links to the seed sites. Very much appreciated. Thank you. Pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Sep 03 - 09:08 PM From one of the sites: Association Kokopelli (formerly Terre de Semences Organic seeds) "For the Liberation of Seed and Soil" Association Kokopelli, a non-profit making organisation in France, was set up in 1999 to take up the torch of Terre de Semences in France, which was forced to close down following the enforcement of a ministerial decree (Ministry of Agriculture) imposing draconian conditions for the legal registration of ancient vegetable varieties in a "A List for Amateur Varieties". Do you suppose they even know who Kokopelli is? Are they registering ancient North American seeds? Why not "Saxon Seeds" or something a little more centered in or indicative of the nations where they operate? Just a thought. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,MMario Date: 10 Sep 03 - 08:53 AM I wondered about that as well.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 10 Sep 03 - 09:58 PM Hi Stilly River Sage. OK - I'm pissed off that the Terre de Semences website has changed so much since I last visited it, and from the (old) printed catalogue I remember. I'll have to go and dig it out now! But it's their choice of new name that seems to have annoyed you - I'm sorry, but I'm missing something there. Could you tell me more? All best - Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Bobert Date: 10 Sep 03 - 10:14 PM Must not be too many Virginie' born an' raised folks 'round the Catbox. Everyone in these parts knows that "allotments" is all about growin' tobacco. Ye3p, the federal government teels you exactly how much of yer land you can plant in the stuff..... Man, you oughtta see them farmers down 'round southwest Virginnie gettin everything out of that half acre they're allowed. 2 foot rows!..... Ahhhh, Gavin, thnaks fir the link. I hate Roundup but it works. Would love to find somethin' else... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Sep 03 - 07:32 PM Puzzled would describe it. Piqued possibly. Why take the name of a complex Southwestern American (primarily Pueblo Indian) trickster god as the name of their European seed catalog? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 03 - 04:18 AM Good to hear you are progressing with the allotment, if the council will rotavate the patch, let them do it! My allotment was just a very rough nettle-ridden edge of a field, we rotavated it twice and then dug it over several times to get out all the roots, this certainly pays off, but it's hard work. Test you soil (a kit is cheap and easy to use) Enrich the soil during the autumn, farmyard manure is best, but things like Growmore pellets are good. Invest in a good book---- The Vegetable Expert-Dr D G Henderson is a good book on the subject-- Another that I use a lot is "Your Kitchen Garden" by George Seddon, they may be available in your library. I have tried many catalogues and always come back to -- MARSHALL & CO LTD FREEPOST WISBECH CAMBRIDGESHIRE Look them up on Googgle, you can send for a catalogue, get newsletters etc etc. Send for some autumn planting onions, garlic and shallots and plant when you can. I have tried most crops and now know what my plot grows best and concentrate on them. Most of all have fun! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,Guest Pip Date: 12 Sep 03 - 04:21 AM Sorry I didn't give my name on the above post! It's Pip Freeman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Steve Benbows protege Date: 14 Sep 03 - 03:53 PM Thank you all for the posts. My partner and I have been down today for a good two hour dig. I have caught the sun terribly!(Not bad for September.) The five foot high grass is a lawn. The brambles at the back we are going to tackle next weekend and the patch at the front my brother in law and I started over today. I have sent off for the Marshalls catologue already. Also, I timed it right to take my allotment as most of the vacant plots are now being filled. Thanks to you all. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Sep 03 - 11:16 PM I also spent a couple of hours out digging up my veggie garden today after two days of rain. It softened the soil enough to work in it. Broccoli and cabbage and tomatoes are in, as are some of the onions and a sprig of mint. These will grow probably at least through November and we should get some nice produce. The eggplant (aubergine) looked unhappy during the summer, as did the chard, but they're coming back now and will be large for most of the fall, hopefully producing regularly. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Peg Date: 15 Sep 03 - 09:01 AM Thanks for the tips on using vinegar; I had heard of it but had not tried it yet. I have a big patch of mint that I "inherited" with my garden plot in the Fens and am trying to find a way to make it go away!Will it be effective if I use it in autumn or should I wait until spring when it comes upo again? At the risk of sounding like a firebrand: PLEASE DON'T USE ROUNDUP!!!! Maybe you don't care about your own cancer risk but it isn't fair to inflict this danger on those who live or garden near you, not to mention putting it into the ground water and exposing all the other plants and living creatures to it. Is killing weeds a bit more easily really worth endangering your life (and that of others) and poisoning the earth? If everyone just takes the attitude "Well I only use a little and only once in a while," that means a LOT of it is used and the cancer rate goes up. I found this article online: New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE A recent study by eminent oncologists Dr. Lennart Hardell and Dr. Mikael Eriksson of Sweden [1], has revealed clear links between one of the world's biggest selling herbicide, glyphosate, to non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of cancer [2]. In the study published in the 15 March 1999 Journal of American Cancer Society, the researchers also maintain that exposure to glyphosate 'yielded increased risks for NHL.' They stress that with the rapidly increasing use of glyphosate since the time the study was carried out, 'glyphosate deserves further epidemiologic studies.' Glyphosate, commonly known as Roundup, is the world's most widely used herbicide. It is estimated that for 1998, over a 112,000 tonnes of glyphosate was used world-wide. It indiscriminately kills off a wide variety of weeds after application and is primarily used to control annual and perennial plants. 71% of genetically engineered crops planted in 1998 are designed to be resistant to herbicides such as glyphosate, marketed by Monsanto as Roundup. Companies developing herbicide resistant crops are also increasing their production capacity for the herbicides such as glyphosate, and also requesting permits for higher residues of these chemicals in genetically engineered food. For example, Monsanto have already received permits for a threefold increase in herbicide residues on genetically engineered soybeans in Europe and the U.S., up from 6 parts per million (PPM) to 20 PPM. According to Sadhbh O' Neill of Genetic Concern, 'this study reinforces concerns by environmentalists and health professionals that far from reducing herbicide use, glyphosate resistant crops may result in increased residues to which we as consumers will be exposed in our food.' 'Increased residues of glyphosate and its metabolites are already on sale via genetically engineered soya, common in processed foods. However no studies of the effects of GE soya sprayed with Roundup on health have been carried out either on animals or humans to date,' she continued. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics from 1997 show that expanded plantings of Roundup Ready soybeans (i.e. soybeans genetically engineered to be tolerant to the herbicide) resulted in a 72% increase in the use of glyphosate. According to the Pesticides Action Network, scientists estimate that plants genetically engineered to be herbicide resistant will actually triple the amount of herbicides used. Farmers, knowing that their crop can tolerate or resist being killed off by the herbicides, will tend to use them more liberally. O' Neill concluded: 'The EPA when authorising Monsanto's field trials for Roundup-ready sugar beet did not consider the issue of glyphosate. They considered this to be the remit of the Pesticides Control Service of the Department of Agriculture. Thus nobody has included the effects of increasing the use of glyphosate in the risk/benefit analysis carried out. It is yet another example of how regulatory authorities supposedly protecting public health have failed to implement the 'precautionary principle' with respect to GMOs.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Gavin Date: 15 Sep 03 - 05:44 PM For Stilly River Sage I'd guess the fertility side of Kokopelli appealed immediately - but even more the trickster bit. Raising the proverbial 2 fingers at EC regulations which are cutting out supplies ofwhole swathes of vegetable varieties? I don't know a whole lot about it - but my gut tells me "all power to the trickster!" in subverting the politicians and the huge commercial interests. All best - Gavin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Sep 03 - 11:55 PM Peg, And here I just planted some mint in the garden. I know, it can get out of hand, but this is a nice chocolate mint that we'll try using for tea. Vinegar is good for killing grass and herbacious weeds, but it is my understanding that if you (for example) spray to kill the weeds around a tree, it won't hurt the tree at all. Personally, I use it to knock off the grass that grows in the cracks in the driveway and I'll be going around the house slab foundation again to kill some of the weeds that have grown up around my soaker hoses. I don't want to shred those hoses with the weed-eater. The grass comes back after a while, but its only vinegar, so I can use it whenever I feel like it and it causes no harm. And who knows, if you feel the urge to munch on some of those dandelions in the yard, just give them a light vinegar spritz and pop them into your mouth! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:13 AM Peg--P.S.--I just looked up Vinegar at the Dirt Doctor site. I heard him tell someone on the radio last week that they could spray vinegar around the base of a tree, but evidently that's a large established tree only. Vinegar will kill the foliage, not the roots of the grass, so you should keep at it every week or so until the roots give up trying to send up more spouts. I'll call next week for a clarification on the tree/vinegar bit. Meanwhile, here's what he says on the web site:
The best choice for herbiicide use is 10% white vinegar. It should be used full strength. I've mentioned 20% in the past but it stronger than needed and too expensive. Avoid products that are made from 99% glacial acetic acid. This material is a petroleum derivative. The proper vinegar is distilled from grain alcohol. Natural vinegars such those made from from fermenting apples have little herbicidal value. They are used in irrigation water and as an ingredient in Garrett Juice. Herbicide Formula: 1 gallon of 10% vinegar Add 1 ounce orange oil or d-limonene 1 teaspoon liquid soap or other surfactant Do not add water Spot spray weeds and keep the spray off desirable plants. This spray will injure any plants it touches. And on another page, he has posted: Vinegar Fungicide Mix 3 tablespoons of natural apple cider vinegar in one gallon of water. Spray during the cool part of the day for black spot on roses and other fungal diseases. Adding molasses at 1 tablespoon per gallon will again help. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Peg Date: 16 Sep 03 - 12:56 AM cool; recipes! I will have to try this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:41 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:40 AM If you can, by the way, use that permeable membrane stuff that councils in France use, to mulch the earth - it lets the rain through, but not the light, so the weeds are discouraged but the ground nourished. Better than plastic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:14 AM JTT, Around here some of the non-commercial organic folks now frown on that permeable stuff and recommend just a thick layer of mulch. There's a method some are beginning to use called no-till gardening. Here's a bit from the Dirt Doctor site: There are several modern no-till gardening methods today. There are several books on the subject too. One of the most famous is Patricia Lanza's books, "Lasagne Gardening" parts one and two. My version of no-till is fairly simple. I have a 3 acre home/farm. About 3/4 acre is all no-till borderless raised beds. Most of my beds are about 3-4' long, all around the house and backyard. I start by mowing down any existing weeds or grass on a virgin spot of land. Then I smother the weeds and green manure mulch with about 6-12" of unfinished compost or horse manure/sawdust that I get weekly from the local equine clinic. Then I put about 1-2" of rich garden dirt, or mature compost on top to guarantee good seed germination of my plants. If any new weeds pop up through the organic matter, I smother them again with more unfinished compost or an organic mulch like straw or leaves. I weekly feed my plants and new beds' soil, with lots of aerated teas to maximize aerobic bacteria and fungi in the soil. I also like to make and use lots of fish/seaweed products for my plants' health and growth. In the fall/winter, I grow lots of legume/grain cover crops like hairy vetch, crimson clover, winter peas, mustard, turnips, whole grain cattle feeds loaded with oats and wheat, and radishes, to get lots of new organic matter and nitrogen-fixation in these borderless raised beds. I mow and smother these green manures down in early spring or late winter with my scythe, swing blade, hoe, and lots of more unfinished compost. After several days of decomposing, then I'll start planting again. During the spring/summer months like to grow lots of cover crops like buckwheat, birdseed sunflower seeds, beans, and peas around my crops as great border plants to draw in beneficial insects, and for beauty. The same fellow, on a different thread, posted this link to show people what his garden looks like. He's in the American South so will have a longer growing season and a moister climate than many parts of the U.S. and I dare say all of the U.K. But the priniciples would work in other areas. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 14 Jan 04 - 10:34 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Allotments From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 04 - 11:02 AM jOhn, it's a little early to start the garden--or are you planning to start some seeds in the house on the windowsill? SRS |
