BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet

Subject: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:45 AM

as the original thread got off track, I'm re- posting this article from Barry Finn

freda

Subject: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Barry Finn - PM
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:22 PM

Thought this might be of interest to some, maybe/maybe not. Scary none the less. How many of the 14 characteristics listed below could we identify with today here in the US?

Copied from http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm Could someone add a blue clicky here, thanks.

Barry


"Fascism Anyone?"

Laurence W. Britt


The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 2.


Free Inquiry readers may pause to read the "Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles" on the inside cover of the magazine. To a secular humanist, these principles seem so logical, so right, so crucial. Yet, there is one archetypal political philosophy that is anathema to almost all of these principles. It is fascism. And fascism's principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm.


We are two-and-a-half generations removed from the horrors of Nazi Germany, although constant reminders jog the consciousness. German and Italian fascism form the historical models that define this twisted political worldview. Although they no longer exist, this worldview and the characteristics of these models have been imitated by protofascist1 regimes at various times in the twentieth century. Both the original German and Italian models and the later protofascist regimes show remarkably similar characteristics. Although many scholars question any direct connection among these regimes, few can dispute their visual similarities.


Beyond the visual, even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer, but it is sometimes useful in the interests of perspective to restate obvious facts and in so doing shed needed light on current circumstances.


For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Papadopoulos's Greece, Pinochet's Chile, and Suharto's Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible.


Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.


1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.


2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.


3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people's attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite "spontaneous" acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and "terrorists." Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.


4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.


5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.


6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes' excesses.


7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting "national security," and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.


8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite's behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the "godless." A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.


9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of "have-not" citizens.


10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.


11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.


12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. "Normal" and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or "traitors" was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.


13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.


14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.


Note


1. Defined as a "political movement or regime tending toward or imitating Fascism"—Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.



Laurence Britt's novel, June, 2004, depicts a future America dominated by right-wing extremists.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:59 AM

Sensible move, freda.

I don't think double posting is a good idea generally. But here's a post I made in the thread that got de-railed that suggests reasons why the term "fascist" doesn't help in this context:

One of the problem with using the term "fascist" is that it lets people off the hook. They look at what's being attacked, and find that in some respect it doesn't really match the term, and move on to the view that in that case it means things are really OK.

"Fascism" is a particular deformation of society in particular times and places. This has some aspects which are also increasingly characteristic of some of the societies we are living in, and we should be very worried about that. But using the word loosely actually makes it easier for many people to avoid those worries, because they can look at other aspects where there are real differences.

And what it also misses is that there are some very threatening aspects of our societies which weren't available under Fascism in its various forms. Technology means that it is now possible for the authorities to have far more knowledge of and control of us in our daily lives than would ever have been possible in Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.

It is now actually possible for our rulers to exercise total control over us, one by one, as and when they choose. That has never been possible before, not even in slave societies. The all-embracing nature of this control means that it can be exercised without any need to use the heavy-handed methods that are associated with "fascism" - and if we think about it, that potentially makes it even more frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:13 AM

But we do get to wear such lovely uniforms!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,big brother is reading
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 08:11 AM

well said mcg of H.

The level of scrutiny in the Western country I live in (Oz) is very high. We have more people phone tapped per head of population than the US does. As you commented, computer and other technology means that it is now possible for security monitoring organisations to monitor and gather information on people in a way that is unprecedented, except in sci fi books.

These security gathering organisations rely on their interpretation of information from a range of sources. Comment, rumour, innuendo falls into this category. People being investigated are in the dark about who knows what about them, and how reliable that info is. These organisations are not accountable, and can make decisions outside the scrutiny of the courts.

In my government workplace, occasionally people are tapped on the shoulder and silently escorted out. Union delegates are investigated and targeted. When the current government first came in, a letter was sent to managers in Federal govt departments instructing them on the use of weapons such as slander, mocking comments, deriding people to influence the views in the workplace and to bring people in to line. That letter was leaked to the press, but the techniques were used and the workplace has been subdued.

Another concern these days is, who exactly is the government and who do they represent. Where one smaller govt becomes reliant and beholden to another government, who really is in charge of the smaller country?

where the government needs the support of big business, including the media and global organisations, government officials become lackeys of global forces. Does anyone think that governments have the power to govern independently any more?

With security organisations amassing such huge networks of power, and operating outside of normal government accountability checks (such as the courts)there are several concerns:

who do these organisations work for? are they aligned with particular parties? usually spooks are chosen from military and conservative backgrounds. Do they always pass information on to the government muinisters who need it? Do they assist conservative parties in their goals to maintain power?

do they have their own agendas?

the whole notion of democracy has been transformed by business to mean - government for megacorporations, but not for anyone else.

People in my workplace are afraid - afraid of losing their jobs, afraid of being humiliated by management, afraid of having to implement illegal actions under duress. There is no longer an independent public service (civil service) in this country.

The government has made an art form of vilification - even public government funded free state schools) schools are under attack for not upholding "values".

People are accused left right and centre of being unaustralian. (shades of unamerican)

this country has been radically transformed in the last 8 years. It has been redefined and is no longer the "relaxed and comfortable"
place it used to be. I used this phrase advisedly, as this was the description by the incoming government of eight years ago of its vision for australia.

instead, we have taken on the qualities of regimes this government regularly attacks.

there is a culture of snooping and dobbing. people can be detained without access to a lawyer. sections of society (the psychiatrically challenged, the homeless) have been abandoned. The government has gone out of its way to give people the right to make racist or prejudiced comments, and has launched a relentless campaign against those people who try and speak up for human rights in any way.

i feel neither relaxed nor comfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:26 AM

Do you have a constitution of any sort in Australia, GUEST,big brother is reading?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:47 AM

Well, McG, and others. I agree that "Fascism" isn't a term that should be used "loosely". But if the shoe fits, waer it.

Yeah, the word and concepts have been demonize since WWII and so intertwined with Hitler and the Nazi Party that folks seem not to be able to seperate the two. Well, it's time to do just that because it is word that conveys so much of what is going down in the world these days.

I know that most conservatives don't think of themseves as fasists because, well, they don't advocate 'rounding up a bunch of people gasing them. But if these folks would just study the fasicts movement in the 30's they would find a lot of parallels.

I would certainly have more respect for my consertvative friends here if they would do just taht and say, "Yeah, I'm a fascist, but I ain't into killin' no one." That would at least be honest. But to just say that the term "facism" is not on the table because it had negative connotations is no more fair than what the conservatives have done to the word "liberal". Come on, can't have it both ways...

Seems like where-ever one looks the hypocrisy on the right is so evident.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:48 AM

Here's a link to the site where the above article has been copied from.

If you click on the link for 'free inquiry' you will find out from which camp the article comes from. I must say I am very pleased that an article from the skeptical movement gets such a positive mention here. But why this article of all the good ones in that magazine?

As for the list Britt has written down I have the impression that it has been written down with an eye to the result. He has left out or smoothed what didn't fit into the picture he wants his readers to get.

So let me add some critique from a German perspective. He has made some good points, but I don't agree with a lot of details and omissions.

(1) What he has left out completely is the feeling in that time that the own nation has not the correct place in the community of nations it should have. The fascist states tried to climb a bit on the ladder of nations to undo (real or imagined) past wrongs. (Wouldn't really fit the USA; they seem to be quite pleased with their present position in the world).

(2) What he leaves out completely too is (at least for Italy and Germany) the wish for a larger country including Italiens/Germans presently (at that time) living under foreign rule ('Heim in's Reich', bring them home to our country). I see no parallel at all with the USA. And that was one of the most dangerous aspects of fascism for the international peace in Europe.

(3) Religion: The Nazis had quite a contempt (most of them) for the traditional religion. They didn't dare to confront organised religion directly (made compromises), but many of them are on record saying that after the war they will have to deal with the Christian churches. Not a convincing parallel with the USA of today. I know that local leaders in the Nazi movement were under some pressure from above to actually leave the churches.

(4) Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. I do not see here a good understanding of the role of physical labour in Nazi Germany. The Nazis have introduced First of May as Labour day in Germany, contempt for being poor was unknown. At least officially, the work with the hands was seen as superior to other work and there was (that was the angle against the Jews and their 'financial might') open contempt for wealth coming from other sources than work, especially when wealth came from what the Americans now term 'making money'.

(5) Anti-Abortion??? Yes, when it was a healthy child from German parents. Not at all, when the child was not healthy according to their racist ideas or a child from 'lesser' races.

(6) He doesn't mention the euthanasia program of the mentally ill? Why not? Because it has no parallel in the USA?

There are several more points that do not fit well. I have only selected the most obvious to me. Other points do fit. But my overall impression is that there was a preconceived theory in search of corroborating data at the onset of his article.

He has made some good points but has failed to convince me that there is more to it than (in his words) 'verbal gymnastics'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 11:06 AM

good ques, carolec

we have a constitution, but no bill of rights

fred

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 11:38 AM

Same here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 12:06 PM

I think we need to talk about facist tendencies rather than use the term to cover every aspect of the political system in the US. We are not a facist nation as of yet because we still have checks and balances.   There are unquestionably in my mind facistic tendencies at work such as the Ashcroft "disappeared" in Guantanamo. The alarming connection to separate church and state through "faith based iniatives" might be construed this way. The jingoism is rampant and some of the other points could loosely be applied but we still have social security, political opposition to the current administration which is not totally being squelched by the media, no real book or magazine burning, no pressure toward accepting a fuhrer Bush, (even some of his supporters are openly critical of some of his policies such as an expensive space program), no conscripted military, a disenfranchised electorate that has not been herded into concentration camps, and other glaring examples as to how we are still a free and vibrant country. This might change but it hasnt happened yet. OHOH it could go the other way more toward democratic ideals and less hegemonic policies abroad.

I don't think that Bush is doing a good job for America but he's not Hitler. That comparison doesn't seem fair to me. He seeks what every American president seeks, power.

I accept that as an American, I have the right to disagree with him and those who support him have the same right to disagree with me. I don't see that as facism but one of the elements of this country that I love.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 12:31 PM

Frank:

A voice of clear reason, as usual. Thanks. I get a little steamed once in a while and loose my perspective; please forgive.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 12:32 PM

Wolfgang - I don't equate the term "fascism" with Naziism. Naziism was one particular form of fascism, that's all. It was under Mussolini that the term "fascist" arose, wasn't it? I think the original article is very good in setting out a number of common features of fascist systems, but you are quite correct that the Nazi experiment differed in some areas from the examples given in the article.

By the way, I also consider the more extreme forms of Communism to be "fascist" (as I define the term)...and they too differ in a number of areas.

The thing to watch for in all these systems is denial of human rights, the glorification of police and security forces, the glorification of the military, the expansion of oppressive government powers into ordinary life, the abrogation of normal legal protections as a supposed "security" measure, the justification of aggression as supposed "self-defence", and so on. It's a big subject.

I tend to see any authoritarian and aggressive system as "fascist", but that's just how I use the term (Communists included! And that's funny, because they claim to be the great anti-fascists of all time.)

It's simple. On one side of the human psyche you have the tendency toward freedom of expression and thought ("liberalism" in the old sense of the term)...and that arises out of a general lack of fear and an enthusiastic curiosity about the possibilities in life. It also indicates a belief in the goodness of human nature. That's the Light side.

On the other side you have the tendency to clamp down, increase authority, limit freedom of expression and thought...and that arises out of FEAR and an enthusiastic desire to control the status quo absolutely and prevent change (unless the change comes from the "Leader" at the very top of the pecking order). That is the Dark side...and from there proceeds the fascist mentality.

So, according to my definition of "fascism" most traditional religions also tend to be fascist at times. In fact, it is almost the rule with religions rather than the exception. (there are a few exceptions here and there)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:27 PM

I think it's a serious mistake to throw the word "fascist" around loosely, and seek to ap-ly it to all authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. It's like using the term "Measles" to refer to a whole range of diseases that give you a rash - Chickenpox, German Measles, Smallpox...

Yes they do have some symptoms in common, and they can all kill you. But lumping them all together as one illness would not be helpful when it came to treating the conditions, or avoiding infection, which is what matters.

The checklist that was posted to start this thread is interesting, but, as Wolfgang said, it read as if it had been written backwards. Start with the result you want and work backwards - we've all done it when we were doing homework, and often enough in adult life.

As Wolfgang pointed out, there were many major elements in Nazism - and in Fascism - which don't carry over to societies such as the present USA. (Though sometimes cultural equivalents can turn up in strange ways - the Nazi culling of people with disabilities was, at least in theory, in line with much "progressive" thought of the time, and echoed the eugenic ideology that was widely practiced elsewhere; and in modern times it is echoed chillingly in attitudes towards foetuses with even minimum disabilities.)

The core of the fascist regimes was a belief that people in power had the right to control every aspect of human life - that is what totalitarian means. In the circumstances of the time it was only possible to achieve that to a very limited extent, and only by the use of very clumsy methods. And there were particular priorities that they focused upon. (For example, "expansionism" was relevant for Germany and Italy in a way that it isn't for the USA - the USA did its expansionism across a whole continent a century and a half ago.)

But if we focus on the methods we are in danger of missing the real danger. These days it doesn't have to be done that way. No need for a network of informers - credit cards and storecards make it easy to keep us all under surveillance. No need for police in every corner to see what we are up to, we have Security TV cameras doing the job..

We live today in what are potentially the most totalitarian societies the world have ever known. We are dependant on the whim of our rulers for our ability to live freely.

Calling it "fascist" misses the point, and plays down the real danger. Yes, they were more brutal than the people who hold us in their power today, but in the end, they were amateurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:31 PM

I'm with Frank here.
I think the words 'authoritarian' covers a lot, Little Hawk, and 'fascist' should better not be used as a synonyme.

There must be some room left for verbal 'armament' if the times get tougher. A too early use of words like 'fascism' devaluates such words.

'Fascist tendencies' I have less problems with. However, I have a lot of problems with using the word 'fascist' for the communist regimes. That maybe comes from decades in which 'redfascists' (Rotfaschisten) was used in Germany only be the very conservatives as a word to denounce anyone from the left.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:21 PM

I would like to read a summary of a manifesto for fascism, in other words, something written from the perspective of an adherent, a believer, for comparison with today's fears. Would someone articulate, sensitive and skilled please write it and post it here? I don't mean pasting it from an official diatribe from long ago. Little Hawk? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:30 PM

Well, an adherent to fascism would list all the good points of it, Ebbie, as he/she saw them. How do we find such a person?

I know! Just look up the "Project For The New Century" or some other policy paper from the neoconservative think tanks. Bobert can tell you where to find it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:55 PM

Maybe rather than "What are the good points" the better question would be, "What are the points that people have found attractive about it?"

We've already had one of those - the uniforms. Or rather, the drama and spectacle. The kind of thing that people enjoy in a lot of Hollywood movies.

Another is the idea of a strong and decisive leadership, taking decisions that sort out all the complicated problems, doing what needs to be done. "Triumph of the Will."

Another is the idea of all of "us" together, proud and undefiant. And free from the contamination of those among "us" who aren't part of "us". "Tomorrow belongs to us".

And another is the appeal of getting in touch with our roots, where we came from. Escaping from the chains of rationality and logic and compromise.

Put it in those kinds of terms and it's not hard to see how a very seductive package can be put together, using elements which in other circumstances and other hands could make something completely different.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:02 PM

"undefiant"?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:21 PM

I meant "defiant" (my subconscious was probably jumping forward to "undefiled")

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:31 PM

Sounds very much like some churches I have known! And I have known people who are more comfortable having the church make the hard decisions for them.

What does the word itself, "fascism", mean? I imagine it is Italian? Did Mussolini, for instance, use the term and mean it to be a strong, confident, wholesome word?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:44 PM

NOUN:
1. often Fascism a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. 2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

ETYMOLOGY:
Italian fascismo, from fascio, group, from Late Latin fascium, from Latin fascis, bundle.

OTHER FORMS:
fas·cistic (f-shstk) —ADJECTIVE

WORD HISTORY:
It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, "bundle, (political) group," but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.   

(From the American Heritage).

The compelling virtue of fascism is that it imposes order, which in the face of trying times can be incredibly attractive.

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:42 PM

"The compelling virtue of fascism is that it imposes order, which in the face of trying times can be incredibly attractive." The loss of that imposed order with its attendant safety and full employment probably accounts for some Europeans' dismay and discontent since their country went 'democratic'. I'm thinking specifically of Poland. They're having a hard time, judging by my friends' reactions.

I had read the 'official' definition and description of fascism. What I was looking for, Amos, was the view as seen by the believers. Even Nazism had its rah rah section.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:13 PM

what that original article was asking was for us to look at our own government and compare.

sometimes a definition is so disturbing it becomes toxic. we need to cling on to the good things, to remind ourselves we don't live in Guinea or somewhere.

yes, fascism is a horrible term, and has been thrown around recklessly.

yes, we have all sorts of checks and balances (the courts, in our country).

but in Australia the government is working relentlessly to limit the power of the courts over government decisions.

pickled old crone
(bitter & twisted)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:34 PM

Okay, Ebbie, let me put myself in the mindset of an avid supporter of Naziism in, say, late 1940...

"Our country (Germany) was in terrible shape before Hitler took power. The economy was in a shambles. A few rich scoundrels were profiteering off the misery of millions. Large parts of our territory had been taken from us after WWI by the treacherous Allies who decided to unfairly blame us for the whole Great War and rob us of territory and disband our armed forces, turning us into a very weakened nation. Parts of the country were taken and incorporated into the new nation of Poland, a nation which had not even existed since rather ancient times. Other parts were occupied by France, a country which had not defeated us on the battlefield, but been driven back by our forces. Our currency was almost worthless. Unemployment and hardship were commonplace.

The Nazis gave us back our pride in ourselves. They gave us hope for the future. They restored the pride and effectiveness of our armed forces and built a new army and air force second to none in the world, while the new navy, though smaller, was first rate in quality. They restored an effective economy and put people back to work again. They built magnificent new roads and buildings. They shut down the anarchists, traitors, and communists who intended to tear apart our society.

They brought stability, order, and prosperity to a desperate nation, and made it a world power again.

The Fuhrer succeeded in gaining back the lands which had been stolen from Germany after the Great War...first by clever negotiation coupled with bold action (Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland)...then when all else failed, by military action (Poland).

The Poles attacked us first anyway, and they got what they deserved!

Britain and France then declared war on us with no justification whatsover, and THEY are to blame for the conflict which followed. Germany was only defending herself. We had to go into Norway in 1940 to prevent a British invasion. The exigencies of war also obliged us to occupy the Low Countries, but this would never have had to occur if the British and French had seen fit to leave us alone and not launch an aggressive war against us.

For their criminal pride the French paid dearly, as we quickly defeated them. The British are a tougher nut to crack, but they will surely see reason and negotiate and end this pointless conflict, which they started, not Germany. The real danger to all of Europe is Communist Russia and the English must be made to see that. It is inevitable that Germany will lead the West in a final battle to destroy the Soviet Union, and it is logical that England should be our ally. Only that blockhead Churchill stands in the way, and the English people will soon realize this and throw him out."

And so on...and so on... * * * Hasty readers be aware...the above thoughts are NOT mine, they are an example of how a Nazi supporter might have thought in 1940! * * *

I believe the above is a pretty good representation of the mindset of many Nazi supporters in 1940. I left out specific references to the Jews, because many people are simply too traumatized around that issue already, and I don't want to add to their distress.

Given the benefit of hindsight this self-serving propaganda doesn't sound so good...but if any of us had been Germans living there at that time we might well have believed most or all of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:39 AM

Another is the idea of all of "us" together, proud and undefiant. And free from the contamination of those among "us" who aren't part of "us". "Tomorrow belongs to us".

No comment......

There were fascists states long before there were books on 'How To Create a Fascist State. We know only too well how to create theses States - in the USA or indeed anywhere else without needing definitions of the word or a model to follow. It is rather simple.

It is just necessary for good folk to do nothing.

These States are created not out of any conscious ideology but because people who want power find ways of disposing of any potential rivals and ways of gettig rid of the freedom of anyone to speak against them. It is a gradual process which is hardly noticable and indeed many people do nothing to stop it - and many actively support and encourage this process - until it is too late.

Maybe a better title for this thread may be - Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet - while we can still have fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:46 AM

They Were Only Children

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 10:17 AM

Ebbie,

In addition to what has been posted, according to Russ Bellant, who has exhuastively researched fascism, the Nazi Party and is author of "Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party", fascism is built around the following:

1. Nationalism and superpatriotism with a snese of historic mission.

2. Agreesive militarism.

3. Use of violence or threats of violence to impose views on others.

4. Authoritarian reliance on a leader.

5. "Cult" of personality around a "charismatic leader".

6. Reaction against the values of "Modernism", usually with emotional attacks against both liberism and communism.

7. Dehumanizing and scapegoating of the enemy- seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, "perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them".

8. The self-image of being the superior form of social organization.

9. Forging of an alliance with an elite sector.

10. Abanodonment of any consistenet ideology in a drive for state power.

"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal"..... Benito Mussolini......

"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality"..... Wilhelm Reich

"The masses of people... will more easily fall vistims to a big lie than to smaller ones"..... Adolf Hitler

and lastly, "If fascism came to America, it would be on a program of Amercanism".... Huey. P. Long

Like I've been saying for a long time, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck...

Hope this helps, Ebbie...

Bobert (resident commie)

Subject: RE: BS:Lyr Add - Young Colin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 01:14 PM

"if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck..."

Unless it isn't. As in this monologue I once wrote (well, it's an excuse to post it):

Young Colin, he worked for the Council,
he used to give people advice.
It was difficult stuff, and at time he felt rough,
like his head had been trapped in a vice.
And he felt like a fish out of water,
or a fork that was short of a knife.
Like some wall that's been built without mortar,
there was something mislaid in his life.

At one time he tried country dancing.
He tried helping out with the scouts.
He even got dressed as a woman, no less -
but that never really worked out.
For Colin was blessed with a big bushy beard,
and somehow it never felt right
when he'd go along shoppin', down at the Coop, in
a skirt and stilettoes and tights.

And at night in the pub he felt silly -
well you feel just a little bit strange
when you reach with your hand for your wallet,
and you're stuck with a handful of change.
So in the end Colin decided
he wasn't cut out for a dress.
He told them he'd blundered,
and his cash was refunded -
which was ever so kind of the shop.

It was a kind hearted mate
proved his angel of fate
when he said, "Now this could be a lark.
It seems there's a fun run next Sunday, old son.
It's to buy back the privatised park.
The runners go three times round gasworks,
and everyone's back home for tea.
Are you on for a fiver, Young Colin?"
And Colin said "That'll do me."

Well the rules they were really quite simple
for this Charity fund-raising hike.
You could come as you happened to fancy,
and you could fancy whatever you liked.
So you might choose to report
in your singlet and shorts,
or astride a Victorian Bike.
Or then again, maybe,
you might come as a baby,
or come out, as a miner on strike.

Young Colin thought hard to determine
just what it was he ought to wear.
Should he run as the Lord Mayor, in ermine?
Could he bear to be some kind of bear?
Should he hit the old trail as a cow-poke?
Maybe turn up as Old Friar Tuck?
Then a light from on high, like a vision -
"I reckon I'll go as a duck"

Now as soon as he got in his costume,
he felt like a bug in a rug
in a pair of webbed feet and a duck-bill,
and a suit of warm feathers so snug.
"I always thought ducks looked so happy"
said Colin, "well now I know why.
I reckon, I've found what was missing.
Oh I wish I was able to fly."

So after the fun-run was done with,
Young Colin held on to his duck,
And he started to wear it, in private -
any time he felt down on his luck.
And after a while he grew bolder -
well, there's no use in messing about,
You can't keep a duck in a closet.
So he opened the door, and come out.

It was lucky he worked for a Council
committed to not being unfair.
They hadn't come up against ducks, up to then -
But "The principle's perfectly clear!"
There were one or two anti-duck bigots,
But there wasn't a lot they could do -
For if Colin preferred
to come dressed as a Bird,
"That's already covered by Rule forty-two"

So if you've a problem, that plagues you,
Such as, what is your correct Council Tax,
They've a helpful official - he'll aid you.
Just don't be surprised when he quacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 01:26 PM

Colin, the Duck! Works for me.

Little Hawk, a German told me that one of the attractions of the Nazi regime was the lowering of the bar between management and labo(u)r. He said that after Hitler came to power the bosses were encouraged to come to the pubs and sit and drink with the men in conviviality, and that this *never* happened before. Germany had been very class conscious, he said, and Hitler very positively affected that. I have not read that anywhere, but that evidently was the perception of the Germans themselves.

It feels strange to think and post what amounts to positive thoughts about Nazism when it really had no redeeming qualities. What I'm trying to do here, as I said, is to look at it from the point of view of those who felt they benefitted from it.

I'm trying to understand my own country...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 03:14 PM

Sure, Ebbie, Hitler spoke of the importance of the common man. He had to because he needed them to get with the program and yo do some rather brutal things. This was part of the plan. Make the working guy think you're out there working for him. Bush does the same thing. But the operative word here is "make the working guy think." (Nos. 1 and 5 in obove post.)

Just as Hitler did in buddying up with the industrialists (management) Bush has buddied up with the corporations (management). (No. 9 in my above post.)

Might of fact, Ebbie. You might want to reread the 10 elements of fascism that Russ Bellant obsevres in his book and see how many of them apply to the current situation in our country.

Like I've said before, the term fascism shouldn't be a term that is kept off the table. When we demonize words we limit ourselves in our thinking and our discussions. The conservatives demonized the word "liberal" for a couple of decades and it is just recently that some progressives feel comfortable in describing themselves as liberals. What is further interesting is that it wasn't the liberals who demonized the word fascism but the conservatives. Hmmmmmm? They just don't want it used on them the way the beat pregressives with the "liberal" stick.

Well, tough. They can't have it both ways...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 03:23 PM

Amos, I consider it your right to get steamed up. Glad you have
some passion.   It's great to see.

I'd hate it if everyone thought alike. That's one of
the things I like here. We can all have different views and
share them.   If we get steamed up once in a while, I think
that's all to the good.

I read posts by Teribus and Doug very carefully and take in
what they have to say. I don't have to agree but I really
respect their right to their views and to express them. I believe they articulate them clearly so we can have a discussion.

The last two words any American or anyone else in the world
needs to have in his/her vocabulary is "shut up". To do that is Unamerican, in my book.

Frank

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 03:34 PM

I read somewhere that Hitler was more of a Big Brother than a
parental figure to the German people. They were rebelling
against the stringest parental restrictions in German society.
It was more of a gang thing. Rebel against your parents and play
follow the fuhrer.

Don't think America is facist yet but I will advocate that
it was started by a group of liberals. Jefferson, Paine, Franklyn,
and those Abolitionists as well as Quakers. Not too much mentioned about the Masons, but they were around too. Even those Puritans
had a liberal streak. They started public education.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:13 PM

Ebbie - You wrote: "It feels strange to think and post what amounts to positive thoughts about Nazism when it really had no redeeming qualities."

To the contrary, I suspect it had many redeeming qualities...they were just badly outweighed by its very destructive qualities, that's all, and that became evident in the end toward all but the most hardcore supporters of the Third Reich.

It wouldn't be easy to find a social system or philosophy with NO redeeming qualities, as such a system would probably not attract enough adherents to establish itself in the first place.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:21 PM

Good point, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 04:39 PM

Whatever song we are making, we use the same notes, and they are beautiful notes. A speech by Martin Luther King or Adolf Hitler will be written using the same letters, and a calligrapher can make them both look equally beautiful.

If you can focus people's attention on the little details, and on a blurry distant vision, with luck they will never pay attention to what is actually going on around them.

..................

But I still think "fascist" is a word that points us in the wrong direction, and disguises the real danger we face. This isn't measles, it's something else; it could still kill, but it won't do it quite the same way. No good crying "wolf" when the threat is from armed men.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 05:23 PM

Ebbie,

And as for positives, the KDF-wagen (Volkswagen). It was to be produced by the "masses" and were to be purchased over time as folks made payments into their KDF books. Please don't ask me what the KDF stands for but the English translation is something along the lines of "Peace Thru Joy"..

BTW, no cars were ever actually produced for the masses but I don't doubt that Hitler wanted to see one in everyone's driveway. Well, everyone who was in with in the in crowd. It was the English who occupied Wolfsburg who made the greatest strides in making VeeDubs what they would later become: mass produced great little cars.

McG:

I very seldomly find myself disagreeing with you but progressives have been shy about standing up when it counts and have been *out-frames* on issue after issue, choosing to counterpunch rather than taking on the right in a frontal manner. And look where it has gotten us... It's way past time to put the right wing on the defensive and get the masses thinking in a space defined by progressives...

Jus' my opinion, my frined. I don't spend no time worrying about you havin' my back 'cause I know yer heart...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 09:05 PM

I'm not worried about calling them Fascists because it upsets them, but because they are sufficiently different that it doesn't stick. It helps them get away with murder.

When it comes to having total control and surveillance over all that happens, at an individual level, the Fascists just weren't in the same league. And they controlled relatively weak and small countries, which could dream of dominating a continent. The USA holds the whole world in its hands.

And when it comes to a willingness to be ruthless, and willing to override any kind of restrictions, when it sees that as necessary, the US Government and its agencies have no lessons to learn from anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 09:16 PM

You ain't suggestin' that these guys make the facists look liike Boy Scouts, is you, McG? If so, count me in...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 09:20 PM

Now you're talking McGrath! I couldn't agree more. What we see in action today is far more powerful and dangerous than what we have seen in the past, and it virtually controls the World media through its marketing power. This is Imperial Rome revisited, not just in the Mediterranean World but in the whole World.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 10:44 PM

Very brutal and vicious Boy Scouts indeed, like something out of Lord of the Flies, Bobert - but basically yes.

They just don't need to be heavy-handed about it, that's the big difference. But when push comes to shove...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 11:16 PM

Hmmmmmmmm, McG? So ya think someone's gonna get hurt, do ya'? Well maybe and maybe not... I'm hopin' fir the later..

But given my unfortunate historical perpective, you are probably correct in your assessment...

Danged...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 01:07 AM

Well, if "Fascism" is incorrect, what IS the word for The Way Things Are Going?

"Authoritarianism" seems too general to be precise; "Nazism" is way too specific.

Buscism?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 01:40 AM

If you get eaten by a big-cat - does it really matter if you describe it as a lion or a tiger?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:05 PM

No - but it might be useful to know which sort of big cat there is in the vicinity. For example, leopards can climb tres, and lions can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:25 PM

Facist/Facisism - Words that are overworked and these days wrongly applied. They tend to be argument closers, and a substitute for intelligent argument.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:51 PM

Did half of this thread just vanish? I'd have sworn it was over 100 posts earlier this afternoon. Or maybe I'm in a time warp. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:03 PM

Never mind--I see the other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 06:25 AM

The original thread is now called -

Are We having Fun As Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:31 AM

I've always regarded fascism as thwarted imperialism - a market economy turning in on itself.
As an aside ,a german girlfriend once told me that part of Hitler's appeal was his dashing good looks .Apparently German women went mad about him .I found this very hard to believe because in England we always considered him to be the very essence of ugliness.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:44 AM

Gareth,

I respectfully disagree. Those who hold fascist beliefs have made a concerted effort to demonize the word/s thereby *limiting* the discussion and drawing attention away from them. These are the same folks who throw the "L" word around liberally (no pun inteneded in a manner to framew one issue afetr another.

My position is that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. It's time for progressives to stand up and start doing a little framing themselves. It a matter of a level playing field.
And it's also a matter of what is really happening with the way things are going and who's steering the ship.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:23 PM

Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
- Benito Mussolini.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country ...corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war."
-- Abraham Lincoln, letter to Col. William F. Elkins, Nov 21, 1864. Reference: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling power. Among us today a concentration of private power without equal in history is growing."
--President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. (One Thousand Americans, George Seldes, page 5.)

"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ..."
-- General Douglas MacArthur, 1957.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 01:56 PM

Thanks, Mets., for those fine quotations.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:33 PM

Your welcome Amos, I felt they add more authority than any comment I could come up with, which would probably be dismissed as the railings of a mad woman.

I do not post these as only comments concerning the US, Canada has always been up to its neck in this and what is more insidious, is that it is far more covert in this country. This instills in some Canadians, a naive sense of righteousness.   

America was born of revolution, Canada was born of corruption and expediency. We're all bozos on this bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 02:50 PM

Metchosin... thanks! ...been doin' yer homework! You just made my day. What I'm gleaning from your input suggests that perhaps it's time to update the concept of 'fascism', and because we are so 'advanced' here in the US, doesn't mean that we aren't reliving past lessons... And so, why is it so taboo to study and apply history's lessons to a current regime? Because it always has been. The more totalitarian the regime, the less tollerant it is of studious reflection...

Gaze with trepidation upon the naked emperor... and suddenly... millions began to laugh at him...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:24 PM

As an addendum, Canada may not have wanted to appear on your list of the "Coalition of the Willing" but we're probably at the top of the heap when it comes to the "Coalition of the Pretty Damned Helpful".

And if you want to send our citizens to Syria for interrogation that can't be done at home because of domestic scrutiny ......pssst ....Hey.....No problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 07:13 PM

But you'll still be barred fom getting the contracts...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 09:46 PM

McGrath, you might think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 10:21 PM

Metchosin - Great quotations! I myself have used the term "corporatism" to describe the monster which is devouring the World, but I had no idea that Mussolini had tagged it way back in the 30's with that name. I did know that Lincoln had seen it well on the way in the 1860's. There is a movie out now called "The Corporation" that addresses this issue very directly, and should probably be seen by anyone who cares about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". A corporation is a fictional, invented being with the legal rights of a living human being and the mindset of an egomaniacal psychotic monster. It lacks a conscience, a moral sense, and a sense of proportion. It seeks only to enlarge itself. It is also potentially immortal. This adds up to creating an insane god (or demon) and then having people serve it till death does them part. You may die, but the corporation lives on. What a disastrous institution on which to found an economy or a society!

Indeed, it is not so much fascism we should fear as it is the rise and dominion of corporatism.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:31 PM

Thanks for contributing, harpmaker!! LOL!! Loittle Hawk says a corporation "acks a conscience, a moral sense, and a sense of proportion. It seeks only to enlarge itself. It is also potentially immortal".

I submit that this is not inherent in the definition, legal or social, of a corporation. The corruption in individuals that leads to some corporations looking that way is human corruption. There are people and cultures which have made decent companies and corporations that cared about their staff and their customers and their shareholders alike. 3M, Gore Technologies, and the early Apple come to mind, Steve's egoism aside. I urge you to discriminate in the quest for correct causes and right targets to aim your rhetoric at!

The actual problem is when a corporation grows so large that it cannot communicate coherently and an individual can no longer feel he can communicate with the top. At that point, dehumanization occurs and all the ills of corporatism begin to set in.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 01:26 AM

Perhaps you should check this out, harpmaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:02 AM

McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 04 - 06:55 PM

"...the drama and spectacle. The kind of thing that people enjoy in a lot of Hollywood movies.

Another is the idea of a strong and decisive leadership, taking decisions that sort out all the complicated problems, doing what needs to be done. "Triumph of the Will."

Another is the idea of all of "us" together, proud and undefiant. And free from the contamination of those among "us" who aren't part of "us". "Tomorrow belongs to us".

And another is the appeal of getting in touch with our roots, where we came from. Escaping from the chains of rationality and logic and compromise.

Put it in those kinds of terms and it's not hard to see how a very seductive package can be put together,"

Certainly works for Yasser Arafat and his followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:19 AM

Works for Karl Rove and his followers, too.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:42 PM

Those are good quotes. The meaning of the word has become a source of torment to me. It seems that the accurate historical and substantive definition would tends towards "a concentration of private power in the affairs of national government," while the other matters of "patriotism," etc. (even oppression, perhaps) are the wrapping, or possible symptoms. The forties, however, seem to have changed the meaning of the term so greatly as to render it almost useless for communication. The word is used for shock and awe, not to convey the above. (So perhaps we should just drop it from our vocabularies?)

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/wi04/berman.htm :

"But isn't George Bush himself a fascist, more or less? I mean-admit it!"

My own eyes widened. "You haven't the foggiest idea what fascism is," I said. "I always figured that a keen awareness of extreme oppression was the deepest trait of a left-wing heart. Mass graves, three hundred thousand missing Iraqis, a population crushed by thirty-five years of Baathist boots stomping on their faces-that is what fascism means! And you think that a few corrupt insider contracts with Bush's cronies at Halliburton and a bit of retrograde Bible-thumping and Bush's ridiculous tax cuts and his bonanzas for the super-rich are indistinguishable from that?-indistinguishable from fascism? From a politics of slaughter? Leftism is supposed to be a reality principle. Leftism is supposed to embody an ability to take in the big picture. The traitor to the left is you, my friend . . ."

But this made not the slightest sense to him, and there was nothing left to do but to hit each other over the head with our respective drinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 02:31 PM

And it works for a lot of other movements as well, including Arafat's opponents.

That list was not intended as a definition of Fascism, but as a list of some of the characteristics which could be claimed for it, and used as a distraction from other less attractive qualities. Rather in the way that, if you were listing the appeal of MacDonalds, you would include some features you might find in a place where they sold good food.

.............................

The point about a corporation is that, while treated in law for many purposes as a person, it is an amoral person. It is possible for human beings who control it to impose ethical standards on it. But often the human beings in control do not choose to do so, or find themselves powerless to overcome the drive to achieve what is seen as the primary aim of the corporation, profits for shareholders.

The state is essentially a special kind of corporation, looked at in these terms. The Fascist state brings out that essential identity especially clearly

What is needed in both cases is an equivalent of Asimov's Laws of Robotics, inbuilt ethical standards which get in the way of doing things that damage society and the environment, and provide a safeguard against it falling into the control of human beings who are willing to subordinate ethical considerations to other aims, such as profit or power. That is the situation which is very characteristic of Fascism, but also of virtually all states, when push comes to shove.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:35 PM

He's not a fascist but his willingness to turn blind eyes marks him as the kind of man who could become one, or who could support one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: harpmaker
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM

NOTICE. The above post from 'harpmaker' was actually NOT from me. On the 26 jan, somebody posted the same thing all over the threads on Mudcat- claiming to be 'harpmaker' and all saying the same thing. Hope this clears things up. From John, the real Harpmaker. PS. just incase your wonderin' Its not true!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:57 PM

Thanks for, uh, setting us straigh5t, there, John!! :>) Wouldn't have believed it for a minute!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 03:59 PM

That means that the first "harpmaker" post must have been put in by someone who knew the real harpmaker's password. I'd strongly advise him to change it, pronto.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM

I know I shouldn't but I had a big laugh rereading McGrath's post and replacing 'password' by 'size of penis'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,harpmaker-honest, Iam cookieless!!
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 02:25 PM

Nice one Wolfgang! McGrath, thanks for the advice, but in this case it won't be nessesary. I know the person who did this terrible thing, and they did it on my computer while I was out of the room!! It was all done in good humour, But I had to put a stop to it 'cos people where looking at me funny round our end! I wont mention any names, but the person responsible playes a nylon strung guitar & rides a mountain bike!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: harpmaker
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 02:36 PM

Subject: More on approaches of Fascism
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 07:06 PM




Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical

By BILL HILL
15 May 2004


Bill Nevins, a New Mexico high school teacher and personal friend,
was fired last year and classes in poetry and the poetry club at Rio
Rancho High School were permanently terminated. It had nothing to do
with obscenity, but it had everything to do with extremist politics.

The "Slam Team" was a group of teenage poets who asked Nevins to
serve as faculty adviser to their club. The teens, mostly shy
youngsters, were taught to read their poetry aloud and before
audiences. Rio Rancho High School gave the Slam Team access to the
school's closed-circuit television once a week and the poets
thrived.

In March 2003, a teenage girl named Courtney presented one of her
poems before an audience at Barnes & Noble bookstore in Albuquerque,
then read the poem live on the school's closed-circuit television
channel.

A school military liaison and the high school principal accused the
girl of being "un-American" because she criticized the war in Iraq
and the Bush administration's failure to give substance to its "No
child left behind" education policy.

The girl's mother, also a teacher, was ordered by the principal to
destroy the child's poetry. The mother refused and may lose her job.

Bill Nevins was suspended for not censoring the poetry of his
students. Remember, there is no obscenity to be found in any of the
poetry. He was later fired by the principal.

After firing Nevins and terminating the teaching and reading of
poetry in the school, the principal and the military liaison read a
poem of their own as they raised the flag outside the school. When
the principal had the flag at full staff, he applauded the action
he'd taken in concert with the military liaison.

Then to all students and faculty who did not share his political
opinions, the principal shouted: "Shut your faces." What a wonderful
lesson he gave those 3,000 students at the largest public high
school in New Mexico. In his mind, only certain opinions are to be
allowed.

But more was to come. Posters done by art students were ordered torn
down, even though none was termed obscene. Some were satirical,
implicating a national policy that had led us into war. Art teachers
who refused to rip down the posters on display in their classrooms
were not given contracts to return to the school in this current
school year.

The message is plain. Critical thinking, questioning of public
policies and freedom of speech are not to be allowed to anyone who
does not share the thinking of the school principal.

The teachers union has been joined in a legal action against the
school by the National Writers Union, headquartered in New York
City. NWU's at-large representative Samantha Clark lives and works
in Albuquerque.

The American Civil Liberties Union has become the legal arm of the
lawsuit pending in federal court.

Meanwhile, Nevins applied for a teaching post in another school and
was offered the job but he can't go to work until Rio Rancho's
principal sends the new school Nevins' credentials. The principal
has refused to do so, and that adds yet another issue to the
lawsuit, which is awaiting a trial date.

While students are denied poetry readings, poetry clubs and classes
in poetry, Nevins works elsewhere and writes his own poetry.

Writers and editors who have spent years translating essays, films,
poems, scientific articles and books by Iranian, North Korean and
Sudanese authors have been warned not to do so by the U.S. Treasury
Department under penalty of fine and imprisonment. Publishers and
film producers are not allowed to edit works authored by writers in
those nations. The Bush administration contends doing so has the
effect of trading with the enemy, despite a 1988 law that exempts
published materials from sanction under trade rules.

Robert Bovenschulte, president of the American Chemical Society, is
challenging the rule interpretation by violating it to edit into
English several scientific papers from Iran.

Are book burnings next?

Hill is a retired News-Journal reporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:45 PM

There has obviously been a takeover of America by Facists. They must have been planning this for decades. How absolutely horrific. No more free speech in America.

Hats off to the teachers who refused to comply with the mean-spirited principal. How are these teacher surviving? I hope the union has set up a fund for living expenses. What are the parents doing about it?

This is such an obvious abuse of power. This information should be reported world wide. The U.S. is dying a slow death and until people start supporting these students and their teacher, there will be no recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:16 AM

One of the fundamental purposes of primary and secondary public education around the world is to create citizens loyal to their countries. "In time, the savage beast doth bear the yoke."

Recall the Scopes Monkey Trial.
Recall the attempt in Saskatchewan to ban "The Stone Angel".
Recall the etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., et . . . .

Hell, teachers have been getting in trouble for stuff that contributes to 'thinking' in the teaching/learning situation. Recall too that teachers are amongst the first people shot when fascist/totalitarian groups take over countries.

This is blatant, but it isn't new.

Amos, I sent you a message regarding the post, and I hope you will answer ASAP, SVP. Thank you.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:23 AM

The article above comes from http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOPN62051504.htm

Click here

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:21 AM

Amos said: Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical At least I think it was Amos and not part of the 'cut and paste'. I feel that this statement does seem a little ironic, on this forum.

Perhaps we just think for a moment and decide why the 'cut and paste' in the first post linked to here, caused the subject of the following thread to be automatically deleted by, and this action defended by some still unknown 'Guest' (and many others)?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=69253

There appears to be a hard and fast rule that the 'cutting and pasting' of non-original material can and will be deleted by our unknown volunteers. Perhaps it can be explained how and why this thread (and the original one) which was started by a big 'cut and paste', was not deleted also, and why Amos's latest 'cut and paste' contribution, is not also automatically deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:36 AM

Shambles, i reposted this thread because i wanted to get back to the topic.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:16 AM

My dear Freda.

I thought the topic (or at least Amos's new post) was freedom of speech?

To my mind that means that I or anyone else, (in BS a thread) could talk here about just about anything we choose to (as long as it is not simply personal abuse). You or anyone else, do not of course need to respond and I see that you did not.

That is freedom of speech.

Long may it be so on this forum and everywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:32 AM

I can't speak to the diffuse and apparently circular points above; I pasted the article because Id idn't have a link at the time, since it had arrived in an email. I later found the source in the archives of the e-list.

There is a world of difference between a private discussion group and publicly funded education.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:02 PM

There is a world of difference between a private discussion group and publicly funded education.

You may think so and you are welcome to express that view, although to me the concept of free speech is just that and should be fought for, where ever it may be under threat and no matter how noble the reasons may sound for preventing it.

I think that such qualifications as to any supposed or relative differences as to where, will only tend to make the constant fight to ensure this right, only more difficult.

But this is now a PRIVATE discussion group? It is? Since when? It is obviously much later than even I thought it was......

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:52 PM

Oh dear Gawd, Roger. It always has been. Privately funded, privately maintained and improved through the volunteer efforts of a very few. The fact that it is open to public use is a generosity on the part of the publisher. If he wanted to he could curtail the membership at will, entirely according to his own discretion. If you weren't such a pinko, you would see that. We participate here on that footing.

Freedom of speech does not mean -- for example -- that you have the right to barge in to a radio station and grab the microphone. It is not the equivalent of freedom of media, which doesn't exist anywhere and would be really tricky to organize if it was ever even wanted.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:31 PM

Amos: A million thanks for posting the article. I have sent the article to my teacher association. I hope they reprint it in our provincial publication. Something similar is on its way here, too.

Thanks again, buddy.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:16 PM

It always has been. Privately funded, privately maintained and improved through the volunteer efforts of a very few. The fact that it is open to public use is a generosity on the part of the publisher. If he wanted to he could curtail the membership at will, entirely according to his own discretion.

The Mudcat Cafe itself may well be as you describe. However the forum is a part of the Mudcat set aside for contributions from the public. There would be little point in a discussion forum that was not open to the public would there? Unless you just wanted to talk to yourself or only read views that you approved of and agreed with.

This was not the site owner's intention, however I fear that it looks sometimes like it is the intention of some for the forum. Perhaps it is they who should find or start another forum where they could do just this? Instead of trying to take credit for all the many fine and weird contributions that have made the forum what it is and feeling that they have some right to impose their views upon and delete the contributions of others.

The generosity and the original intentions of the site's owner for the forum is not in doubt and is much appreciated by me and many others. The contributions from the public (good and some not so good) have made this public discussion forum what it is. Any attempt to restrict the freedom of speech on this forum, should I feel be fought here as it has to be fought everywhere else, including public (and privatly) funded education.

People act to restrict freedom of speech (like the example provided)mainly because they feel they have the power to do this. Some of the reasons they then use to justify this would be laughable, if the implications were not so serious. This shows little respect for those who have entrusted them with this power.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:30 PM

OK, Sham, I yield. I am all for freedom of speech. It has to be regulated in extreme cases, and this whole discussion has been had several times before so let us not repeat it. 'Kay??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:21 PM

Amos:

Thank you for posting the article. I have spoken with my teacher association (sent them the article and info as to how to reach the publisher) and I am hopeful they will reprint it in our provincial publication. I think it presages what we can expect here within the next few years. Excellent, Amos, and as we say in firefighting, "Good eye!"

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:30 PM

Bruce:

Good luck -- I hope they publish it and it generates a sweeping wave of libertarian outrage that engulfs both our gummints!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:31 PM

Here's a link to the poem that got them so steamed up - Revolution X-- Courtney Butler

This whole thing feels like an episode of The Simpsons. Especially that Principal.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:54 PM

I like that poem!! Ballsie stuff!! Right on!!

Peace,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:02 PM

It's an interesting site it's on too. Here's a quite I liked:

"After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing." By President Eisenhower.   Whatever happened to his kind of Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:03 PM

It's an interesting site it's on too. Here's a quote I liked:

"After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing." By President Eisenhower.   Whatever happened to his kind of Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 07:58 PM

Does anyone know of a site I could go to to get the addresses of every teacher organization in the USA? I will be working on Canada after school tomorrow. I think the poem and article should be read by every teacher in North America.

Even my Grade 9 English students were really angry today, and many shook their heads in disbelief. I read the article to them, and one girl--a good poet--was staring at me with her mouth agape. My Grade 11s will read the poem and the article for class on Monday. If you hear a loud noise from Alberta at about 11:15 AM our time, you will have a rough idea where we are located.

Amos, I keep saying thanks to you, and I keep meaning it. I feel like shouting something appropriate: "Viva la Revolucion", but that wouldn't be very dignified for a 56-year-old teacher. So allow me instead to say, "Friggin' A, Amos muh man!" Thank you too McG of H.

Tell me this: Are we still on the planet Earth?

What a travesty.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:33 PM

I will 2nd that brucie and include you as well. You all provide me with a beacon of light in a world that doesn't seem to understand the importance of educating our children to question everything and express their thoughts and ideas. An educated citizenry is essential to democracy!

Courtenay Butler deserves alot of recognition. Unfortunately, she will, like so many of our drop-outs, become disillusioned with a system that discourages anyone from 'making waves'.

In B.C. we now have a govt. appointed, College of Teachers that has a policy that states they will investigate any complaint from any member of the public. That includes people who have never discussed the problem with the teacher or the principal or the school board. With that kind of threat hanging over your head, who would dare to be controversial? The public doesn't seem to understand that this will lead to a bland and mediocre education at best.

Hats off to you, brucie. Get the message out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:48 AM

OK, Sham, I yield. I am all for freedom of speech. It has to be regulated in extreme cases, and this whole discussion has been had several times before so let us not repeat it. 'Kay??

Amos you were the one that stated Speech is free unless it's critical.

I will just remind you that it was you revived this thread with a (strictly forbidden) cut and paste job. The subject of this was important to you and you felt that it was relevant to this thread. I have no problem with any of that at all.

However, had I done the same thing or someone else had done this and the post was thought to be critical of the Mudcat in some way, I suspect that the outcome would have been somewhat different. The least that would have happened is that this posting would have been accused by some of single-handedly hi-jacking the thread or being off-topic...And you Amos, would have come out with all of your usual justifications and excuses, (as you have) no matter how hypocritical these may read after your cut and paste contribution and comments.

At the worst, some unknown 'Guest' volunteer, may have just decided to delete the post...And this action would be defended as just following the 'rules', by many who, I suggest should really know better and recognise when things have become, too late......

However, one contribution from me in this thread, after that point on the matter of freedom of speech (that is thought to be critical of The Mudcat) is thought to be off-topic. This observation, made in a post from that contributed nothing else to the debate. This is the second thread with this (form) of title and this happened because I made some contributions to the original one that I thought relevant then and I think relevant now. My view of this is that folk are free to agree or disagree with my contribution, or they can just ignore it.

What actually happened was a hysterical reaction and some ridiculous claims that my contributions (possibly critical of the Mudcat) alone had hi-jacked the thread! If such a thing (whatever it means) were possible. That is why this second thread was started, quite needlessly.

My view is a simple one. It is that all abuses of human freedoms, start (and end) with you and I. It is comfortable for us to only blame Governments, institutions and each other, but the buck stops with us as individuals and what restrictions on those freedoms, that we are prepared to find (so-called good)reasons to excuse in our daily lives. I think many would agree, that if we do not wish to appear as hypocritical (and worse), we do need to be careful and consistent, in what restrictions of freedom, we choose to attack and what ones we choose defend - and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:03 AM

I certainly did not state that in this thread, Roger, and if you think I stated it somewhere else I'd like to know where. Otherwise you're just inventing stuff.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:02 PM

Today I sent the article and poem to five teacher unions/colleges/associations in Canada.

Next, the USA.

Then the world.

(Should Oz be included in that?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:08 PM

Amos said: Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical At least I think it was Amos and not part of the 'cut and paste'. I feel that this statement does seem a little ironic, on this forum.

One of the problems of cut and paste, is that it is not always certain who actually said what. Pehaps we can just accept that it was you Amos that originally posted the quote (or title) to this forum? And also possibly, by posting it, that you were in agreement with what I think was the intended irony?

Of course someone may cut and paste something that they do not agree with at all - but I did not get the impression that this was the case here? Perhaps it was?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:17 PM

Pretty bloody obvious that Amos was in agreement with that irony.

Myself I think that the kind of incident that Amos brought to our attention deserves a bit of attention. If Shambles want to raise his concerns about what he sees as improper limitations on free speech in the Mudcat, there's a little device at the top of the page called Create a New Thread which might come in handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:38 PM

Perhaps Amos could have started another thread also?

Or perhaps he was comcerned that an earnest and unknown volunteer guest may have deleted his new thread, if it was started with a cut and paste job?

Perhaps we should just always start new threads, just in case someone considers one's contribution to an existing thread is off topic?

Perhaps it may be better to just ignore posts that you consider to be off topic?

Maybe we can just discuss all the issues arising - as you would in a face to face conversation, with adults, without hiding behind 'the rules' or making them up? We have different views and ways of doing things - that is part of the magic of this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:46 PM

Very true.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:08 PM

brucie - Did you send it to the BCTF or do have to do some work too? :>)

Send it to Australia and England, too. They should know what their 'buddies' are really all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:43 PM

dianavan: it went to Ontario, NS, BC, Sask Alta and Manitoba. Tomorrow it goes to as many of the US states as I can find e-mail addresses for. Then Britain, NZ and Oz. It took me a half hour after school. I have the article with appropriate addresses and the poem set to cut and paste. Most of the work is finding the addresses of the various teacher federations, unions, 'colleges' and associations. However, by the end of the first weekend in June I expect to be done. Maybe in the grand scheme of things it will do some good. We have to stick up for our colleagues.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Strick
Date: 29 May 04 - 12:28 PM

The fact remains that I still believe the elusive "Dr." Britt is a fraud and any claims his article is based on valid science are ridiculus. I'm glad that my argument that using that kind of word loosely is fundamentally wrong either resonated with some other posters or they came to the same conclusion themselves.

If you argue we're approach fascism now, what are you going to say when the real danger emerges? And who will listen after you cry wolf?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 29 May 04 - 01:16 PM

Brucie - The union should have any of the addresses you should need. I'll look around for a list.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 04 - 03:20 PM

Thank you, d. Appreciate that. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 May 04 - 06:37 PM

I have an unanswered question in this thread from last January. I wrote:

'Well, if "Fascism" is incorrect, what IS the word for The Way Things Are Going?

' "Authoritarianism" seems too general to be precise; "Nazism" is way too specific.

'Buscism?'

Hows about it?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:06 AM

Clint - How about Corporate Multi-nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 04 - 07:56 AM

How abour "post-American"?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 04 - 09:52 AM

I was trying to avoid starting another thread because we have had so many about our Orwellian slide. The protocol here is that you don't just start a new thread out of laziness if there is a prior one that addresses the topic. The title of this thread seemed to indicate it was appropriate for the article about creeping Fascism. I didn't realize at the time that this was the snake pit piece on the internal standards of this forum. Shambles rose up when he saw the thread had been resuscitated, hoping for another round of his favorite whine. So I could have chosen more accurately.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 01:30 PM

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 30 May 04 - 07:33 PM

Bullshit works for me, Clint, but it may be too close to the truth of the matter. Slavery?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 04 - 08:39 PM

But perhaps Bobert gave us the asnwer to Clint's question, in Huey Long's prediction: "If Fascism comes to America it would be on a program of Americanism"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 30 May 04 - 10:08 PM

Bullshit it is, and more unpleasant than most BS
"Corporate Multi-nationalism." is good - & precise.
"Post-American" is a litttle too good. It makes me want to weep.

I've heard the Huey Long quote before, and I think about it a lot since 9/11.

And I've heard several different versions of it; does anyone know the original source?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:34 AM

How about Americorp.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:36 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 31 May 04 - 02:37 AM

or Americon?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 04 - 04:55 AM

What you call it matters little. The first thing is to know how to recognise it and the second is how to combat it - where ever you find it.

I didn't realize at the time that this was the snake pit piece on the internal standards of this forum. Shambles rose up when he saw the thread had been resuscitated, hoping for another round of his favorite whine. So I could have chosen more accurately.

My point is exactly that this idea that you can dabble in some areas of you life with restricting freedom of speech, whilst at the same time, safely critising Governments and institutions for doing the same, that I find so damaging and hypocritical. It IS just my view and I do beleive that I am entitled to express it here?

Back to Amos's cut and paste. If these young poets where writing poems that supported race-hate, beating women and terrorism, I suspect and are led to beleive that curtailing their freedom to do this may be supported by some here.

Poems that critise our Governments are OK though.....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:07 AM

The Shambles coming in as an un-named GUEST?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 05:18 AM

You do seem to be able to work out who that post was from and it is not (yet) against the 'rules' is it?

Nor it seems is posting as a unknown, un-named 'guest' to defend your actions in deleting the posts of other contributors because it was 'cut and paste' and was considered not to have any original comment. Or that both these actions are defended because they considered the post in question to be a 'no brainer'.

There was never any real need to create any more threads, there is already two of these and also the following with the comments on the unknown guest who deletes the contributions of others (and I had earlier provided a link to this one). If indeed the post in question in this thread, did come from this person, as there is no way to tell?
Deleted post

Those who would deny our freedoms and attempt to justify this, will always try to hide behind the so-called 'rules' and find many solid sounding reasons for their actions. This why it is so important for us to always be consistent in supporting this freedom, even or especially when the views being expressed are not to our taste.   

Freedom is, and will always remain a pretty scary concept. There never will be a simple (or a tidy) answer.

Other that being prepared to accept that others should always be permitted to have the same freedoms that we accept as our right, no matter how strongly we may disagree with the views being expressed..............

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM

"Americon" works on several levels--

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:24 PM

Those who would deny our freedoms and attempt to justify this, will always try to hide behind the so-called 'rules' and find many solid sounding reasons for their actions. This why it is so important for us to always be consistent in supporting this freedom, even or especially when the views being expressed are not to our taste.

Freedom in a communal domain such as the Mudcat also invokes responsibility. Especially when the medium is someone else's property, and not just a God-given imaginary natural plain somewhere. So if you step on toes, and get a post edited or deleted in consequence, it is not some diaboloical affront aga9inst your natural freedoms. It is the management of a community establishing the standards of the community as best they can--a responsibility which is theirs to carry out...

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 04:12 PM

Over here "Conservative" and "Tory" are equivalent terms.

I gather in America the two terms have drifted apart. Maybe it's time they came together again. Tory sounds a very appropriate term to use for your "neoCons".

(Mind, in USA terms, many of our Tories would be counted as dangerous liberals.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM

Er, no, here Tory means Americans who sided with the British during the American Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:12 PM

Precisely. Traitors, in other words. Very appropriate for those people today who are undermining that revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:56 PM

Our "neocons" are very similar in spirit to the Tories of 1770 -- reactionary, authoritarian, royalists eager to establish domination of others by the use of rented violence, to be conducted by others.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:57 PM

Freedom in a communal domain such as the Mudcat also invokes responsibility. Especially when the medium is someone else's property, and not just a God-given imaginary natural plain somewhere. So if you step on toes, and get a post edited or deleted in consequence, it is not some diaboloical affront aga9inst your natural freedoms. It is the management of a community establishing the standards of the community as best they can--a responsibility which is theirs to carry out...

Those who would deny our freedoms and attempt to justify this, will always try to hide behind the so-called 'rules' and find many solid sounding reasons for their actions. This why it is so important for us to always be consistent in supporting this freedom, even or especially when the views being expressed are not to our taste.

Whether this is on our forum, in the USA or anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 07:03 PM

CHrist, Roger, you are being unusually thick. Do you think the owners and managers of this site OWE you bloody bandwidth and storage space? You keep asserting your "freedoms" as if in some political confrontation. This is similar to renting a room in a Bed and Breakfast and then insisting on striding naked through the halls and common rooms because you paid for a bedroom. The house belongs to someone Other, pal, and the rules they define are the rules that obtain whether you like it or don't.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM

Actually maybe it's a bit hard on the 1770s "Tories" to liken them to the present bunch. They just picked the losing side in a Civil War. The present lot are engaged in a much shadier project.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 08:21 PM

Opps, sorry. I had no idea that this thread had morphed into nudist bed and breakfast...

Think I'll be on my way now...

Like I said, sorry...

Bobert

(Backs slowly thru the front door, back ever so slightly bent forward, hands clasped in front of him apologitically thinking to himself "Hmmmm, so this is what fascisim is about?...)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 08:28 PM

Quote from the original 'cut and paste' post, that started these two threads.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting "national security," and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

There is not an obsession with 'national security' on our forum but from the measures and justifications, it sometimes appears as if it were thought by some to be of a similar level of importance. I am also sure that there is no intention of oppressing anyone, but there would appear to be an obsessional need for our forum's ruling elite, (not the site owner) to judge and find reasons to delete the contributions of some other posters and of always justifying this action. Instead of simply ignoring the offending posts and allowing us to decide their worth.

The general treatment of any poster who questions the need for these (secret) activities and double standards, also looks at times as if these contributors are seen as treasonous, just by expressing a view that may be different to the accepted one, when expressing views is pretty much the whole point of our forum.

There was no issue of national security in the 'cut and paste' about the school poets but again the 'rules' are invoked there to protect the public, as if there were. I think that most of us would agree that whatever action to limit our freedom of speech, is thought necessary by our guardians to protect us, should be proportionate and consistent. I feel that it would also help and not be so divisive, if it were as open as possible and not clothed in unnecessary secrecy.

However, I do find it strange that folk who have stated their reasons here in the past, (at length) for 'guests' to use a name, (just to post) do not appear to have a problem with an unnamed 'guest' who deletes the posts of others, and then posts to justify this and still remains unknown. Given the amount of discussion on the subject of 'guest' simply posting, I am amazed that unknown 'guests' who are empowered to delete posts and threads, is just accepted without question or comment......

I strongly feel if we are to discuss general attempts to limit freedom of speech on our forum, we accept that putting-up with and even justifying this type of practice here that is counter-productive and out of all proportion to the size and nature of the original problem. After all, this is part of the Mudcat set aside for all of OUR contributions. Some tidying may need to be done (usually at the request of the poster) but I can't see any need for many of the actions, and attitudes expressed by those who feel they are in position to judge the worth of our contributions.

Yes we do indeed all have responsibilities, to go along with our rights. And that includes those who would judge us but appear to think that they do not have any responsibility to us or that they should not have to answer to us. This on the part of the Mudcat set aside for our contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 09:55 PM

Oh, hell. I quit, Roger. Good luck finding someone to listen to you unilaterally.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:12 AM

"Precisely. Traitors, in other words."

You mean British patriots.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:31 AM

In Canada the Americans who came North because they didn't agree with the revolution were called 'Loyalists'. That is, they were still loyal to the queen.

Politics evolve just like everything else. Change is the only truth. What we have now in the U.S. is, I think, best described as 'Americon'. The Bush administration 'conned' their people (and Britain and Australia, too), big time. They have also 'conned' the media. So instead of referring to Bush and company as Fasicts or Neo Conservatives or whatever... They're Americons to me. That goes for their sidekicks, too. The melding of big business and right wing conservatives using Christ as their sword - Americons.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 02:49 PM

If you do not agree with what someone is doing but go along with this, mainly because you feel (or trust) that they are 'on the side of the angels' – it may eventually turn out that you have in fact been supporting 'the devil's work', all along.

I don't really buy the idea of 'evil' but there may well be folk who consider themselves or their actions to be intentionally evil. However, I feel that the vast majority of things we now see as ending up as evil, usually start off as someone, (no matter how misguided they may turn out to be) honestly believing that they are doing the right thing. They are usually able, by their certainty alone, to convince others that this is the case and are in turn, further convinced by this blind support, that they are doing the right thing.

It is not difficult to see many examples of this, throughout history. But sadly this does not seem to prevent us from allowing history to repeat itself.

There is a rather effective UK TV advert, designed to get people to use their vote. It has a chap who does not vote, because he is not interested in politics. He is told by his friend, that politics affect him anyway, and the only way to have a say or to change anything is to vote. This is demonstrated as every time the first chap moans about an issue that is affecting him. His friend points out that he said he was not interested in politics.

So no, I am not making a political issue of freedom of speech – it IS always political issue and everywhere, including this forum. If we are to feel that on this forum we can criticise Governments and other institutions when they attempt to limit our freedoms, is it foolish not to address the same methods and hollow justifications given to limit our freedoms on this forum?

All I ask is that you read the justifications given here and while you do this, try to forget for a moment that the individuals concerned are nice folk and this is only a website etc. I am sure that all of the volunteers are well-intentioned. Just read the justifications given for the actions taken and decide if they are really proportionate to the stated purpose, especially the secrecy aspect. I simply feel that a stand must be made, before the next well-intentioned attack on our freedom of speech is made and justified. And the next one – for there is only one way this ever goes.

It is always only necessary for good folk to do nothing………

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:26 PM

"Precisely. Traitors, in other words."

You mean British patriots. Or perhaps a different type of American patriot?

But in the circumstances of the 1770s, the same thing.

In the circumstances of 2004 and the USA, the "British patriots" definition ceases to be a relevant one. That leaves the other one floating in the air, and available for political discourse and invective.

Earlier it was suggesting that it would be appropriate to use the term "Fascist" in the USA context, as a kind of balance for the way the term "liberal" has been used.

I think that line of reasoning works better when applied to the suggestion that people consider using the term "Tory" to refer to Conservatives over there, as it always has been used back here - but with the added sting in its tail that in the USA it implies a kind of treachery. (Though quite a lot of us see it as having that implication here as well, though for different reasons.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:41 PM

Excellent suggestion, Wolfgang! :>)

Buncha damn neoTories!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

Excellent suggestion, Wolfgang! :>)

Knowing Wolfgang, I am sure it was an exellent suggestion - but what was it????

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:17 PM

I thought Wolfgang had suggested the use of the term Tory, but it seems to me it was McGrath. Sorry, all.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we still having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 03:45 AM

Is there any chance that you will be saying sorry for the things you said here to this poor chap, when you were supporting those who had deleted his posting, when our unknown volunteer considered it was OK to delete his 'cut and paste'? This was before you posted yours here.

Subject: RE: Deleted post
From: Amos - PM
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:40 AM

AD:

Ta. If you had provided an analysis of what you thought were the merits of the issue it might have done more than just copying and pasting someone else's chestbeating. I have nothing against beating chests, mind you, but ya wanna see what you can come up with that will enhance the dialogue. No-one needs generalized negativity about how bad things are. We all know how bad things are! :>)

Amos I have no personal issue with you but there does appear to be different strokes for different folks. For I can't see that you did much different, when you re-started this thread with a 'cut and paste' that is open to the same critism (and worse). Not only was your 'cut and paste' safe from deletion, folks were later posting to thank you for posting it.

Perhaps they would have done the same with our friends 'cut and paste' contribution - had they not been denied the chance to?

Given that the vast majority of threads are not started with 'cut and paste', perhaps a little room and toleration can be found for the few that are, (like this one) and the readers left to decide the merits of them? It would be better than supporting what is pretty clearly a double standard.