BS: Was Bush a deserter?

Subject: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:53 PM

I posted this question on another thread but nobody answered. I'm still wondering about this.

Up here in Canada, some claim Bush was a deserter during Viet Nam. Can anyone tell me why there is a gap in his military service record from May 1972 to October 1973?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:55 PM

We know why--because he left his post for a long time. Why has no one seemingly been able to make anything of it? Because his daddy was the president of the United States. It seems to have magically become a non-issue. I suspect a paper shredder was part of the reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:00 PM

Did anyone catch Michael Moore's (I think that's his name) introduction of Candidate Wesley Clark the other day? My TV showed a very energetic Michael Moore introducing Clark as "the General versus the deserter." On "Meet The Press" yesterday, Tim Russert tried to pin down Clark on this introduction, asking if he endorsed the comments. Like any good candidate, he never gave a direct answer. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:07 PM

NO

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:20 PM

Isn't he the Commander in Chief? I wonder how the military men feel about this? Wouldn't make me feel too confident if I were in their shoes.

Gargoyle: You'll have to provide me with a good explanation for this gap in his service record before I'm convinced. No just doesn't cut it.

Good for Michael Moore.

I hear The Corporation is another "must see".

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:25 PM

I don't think he was a deserter because I believe that although his name was on the rolls he was never really in the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:35 PM

Technically he was Absent Without Leave--AWOL

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:51 PM

Whats the penalty for being AWOL?

Maybe he had some mental health problems or something...

Shouldn't he at least have to explain?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:54 PM

He made an excuse for it, but what he was doing was going off to work on Dad's campaign. Because this was the reserves, it was trreated less seriously than it would have been had it been regular Air Force duty.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:24 AM

Amos: So Bush & Co. believe that politics are more important than duty to country? Am I surprised!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: robinia
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:03 AM

I believe the "missing time" also coincides with a physical exam (and newly instituted drug testing) that he didn't show up for. Hmm....

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:50 AM

I bet plenty of people wish that he would desert or go AWOL now.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:19 AM

Would't be any change at all if he DID go AWOL- Cheney's already president [& Dumbya's puppeteer] has been since before the selection.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 09:01 AM

He was not a deserter. Legally, that means leaving the military with no intent to return. He was probably AWOL, but it had nothing to do with any campaign of his father's-he was apparently working on someone else's campaign, though. One of the many web articles about this is here. One thing I wonder about is why the entire article on this has disappeared from 'Snopes.'

As I said on the other thread, this is all very old news. He has done enough in the last three years to justify his non-reelection (if not a trial and conviction for misfeasance and malfeasance) without bringing up things that happened 35 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:03 AM

I think that if this becomes an issue it will come down to the definition of "is" or "was" and not actually what he did. The story keeps changing. The last time the issue arose the explanantion had something to do with the yearly physicals that pilots are required to take and Bush said that he got one from his personal doctor... or something like that... Problem is that the military requires it pilots to get physical from militry doctors...

So it will be interestin should this issue resurface in the '04 campaign and will keep Bush's PR folk and lawyers burnin' the midnight oil.

BTW, speakin' of Bush's, his brother Jeb is slated to get a couple million dollers from a semi-conductor company and Bush even admits that he knows nothing about. Hmmmm? Seems to be a pttern here with these wacky Bush kids...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:14 AM

This question has come up several times on the radio in the last couple of days. Several callers and hosts have cited a NY Times article circa 2000 which found that:

GWB did miss several meetings to work on campaigns, and that he did make up that lost time within the same quarter.

I know that will not make a difference to most of you, but just thought I'd rattle your chain with facts from a liberal source ;).

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: MarkS
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 11:07 AM

Probably not a deserter in the legal sense of the term, but a guy who used his connections to put military service in the background while he got on with his life. This is not unusual for the high born and well connected. Even Al Gore had his Vietnam service cut short so he could work on his fathers campaign.
As usual, if you have the connections you can get away with almost anything.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: NicoleC
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:10 PM

Question for former military types -- why does it stick in my head that going AWOL during wartime IS technically desertion?

However, legally or not, in the context of Dubya, I don't think that the term desertion really applies. AWOL, yes, he was irresponsible for not showing up for duty for over a year. Where were his commanding officers, though? Clearly by allowing this to continue for so long, he was being granted a de facto priviledge that other soldiers were not accorded.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:55 PM

I understand that Bush was re-assigned to a Disciplinary Squadron in Denver after he skipped out on drills and such with the TX Air Guard.

As a former National Guardsman -- and one who was activated with his unit for the Vietnam Conflict (and whose NG unit served at Chu Lai, Vietnam) -- I don't know many Guardsmen who condone what GWB did. Connections or not, politics or not, 'twasn't in either the spirit or the letter of his oath or his enlistment. And I don't care WHO your daddy is.

As for being AWOL or desertion during wartime -- during the Vietnam Conflict the US was no more at war than it is now. ONLY Congress can declare war, and it hasn't done so since 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 01:20 PM

As an Army vet, I echo Rapaire's comments above. We were not officialy at war. That fact allows all kinds of loop holes and bendings of the truth. And Rapaire is quite correct in that this President certainly did NOT serve his duty in the "spirit of the law." But, and I certainly am NOT defending President bush, look at the other so called leaders of the same period: Gore, Clinton, etc.

I suspect that President bush (I refuse to capitilize his name) would truly wish this whole issue would just go away. And in one sense, I do also.

What President bush has done to our country is truly awful, in my opinion. But focusing on this issue, that is so old, probably won't help to bring his regime down. I see this as more of a distraction that a real issue. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 02:42 PM

Hmmmmmm amazing revelation by Stilly River Sage 26 Jan 04 - 10:55 PM,

RICHARD NIXON WAS GWB'S DADDY.

dianavan, the question asked in your opening post 26 Jan 04 - 10:53 PM was:

"Can anyone tell me why there is a gap in his military service record from May 1972 to October 1973?"

To which Gargoyle 26 Jan 04 - 11:07 PM answered "NO"

Simple question, very simple and direct answer. What part of no do you not understand dianavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 02:55 PM

"Deserter" is a term which can only be applied after someone is judged guilty of desertion by a court or court martial. Likewise the terms "murderer" or "robber."

Thus, Bush was not a deserter. That does not preclude my opinion of his military record. After all, we're only expressing opinions here. This is not a court of any sort of law.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:34 PM

I am a former Viet Nam era military veteran and Mr. Bush's absence from Air Guard duty is just one more piece of evidence of his flawed character. I want the facts to come out and if it is irrefutable that Mr. Bush was "absent" from his Guard duty, he owes us a truthful explanation of this during his campaign. His opponents have a right to confront him on this issue during the forthcoming debates. Mr. Bush flaunts his "military flight service connection" and this was evident in his landing on the aircraft carrier. He certainly should be given credit for completing flight training and for his good documented service. The absence of his service must be explained by Mr. Bush and corroborated by his Guard commanders. Among the many things that I find contemptuous about Mr. Bush is that he is now our Commander-In-Chief, with a background based on questionable military service. I also held Mr. Clinton in contempt for his avoidance of military service.

I received a draft notice after having had a student deferment and upon graduating from college. I could have chosen to go into the National Guard, but chose to go into full military service. My father had been a Master Sergeant and taught ROTC at a large University and my brother was a Green Beret officer. I felt obligated to serve my country as repayment for living in such a great society and out of civic duty, although I was against the war. I understand opposition to military service but not cowardly avoidance of that service or not fully completing your sworn duty as a soldier or guardsman.

Although not part of the AWOL issue, Mr. Bush's avoidance of questions about if he used cocaine is another character flaw issue. I was in college during the late 60's and early 70's when illegal drug use was rampant. I never chose to use illegal drugs and if someone had asked me if I ever used any of those drugs I would say not just No, but heck No! Mr. Bush completely avoided those questions when there was some evidence that he had used cocaine. Had he confirmed that he used cocaine I would not have voted for him, but I would have respected him for being honest about having made a mistake. If someone asks you if you did something illegal, especially if you are vying for high political office, and you reply it is none of your business (or it is a private issue) then you probably committed that illegal act. Only a fool or a guilty party would not vehemently deny it and do all he could to provide evidence to support his innocence. Mr. Bush probably lied, again. I voted for Mr. Bush because I felt the previous administration was amoral and could not tell the truth. Mr. Clinton lied about sex (among other things, I would guess), Mr. Bush has lied about many more serious issues resulting in death and professes to be an abiding Christian. His is seriously flawed in many more ways that most of us average citizens and does not deserve any respect. I am astounded that so many Americans back him and his "war". Don't they bother to look at the evidence and think for themselves? Character does matter and trying to cover up past contemptuous activities by becoming a born-again Christian later in life is reprehensible.

I will have to admit one thing about Mr. Bush. He truly believes in a pray-to God, often dangerously so (those voices in his head telling him to do the right thing for God). How else could he explain to himself that he was able to be elected president? It had to be an act of God. It must have been a supernatural miracle! How else could it have possibly happen? At least one military general has the answer: Mr. Bush was ordained by God to be president.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: NicoleC
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:45 PM

Thanks, Rapaire, that explanation makes perfect sense. I thought the term "desertion" seemed wrong but couldn't put my finger on it.

Cruiser, I believe that people can make mistakes, even big ones, and learn from them and become better, wiser people. Some folks do that by getting religion -- and if you are Christian, you MUST believe in forgiveness and fresh starts, or you're not Christian.

That aside, I don't see that Bush's self-proclaimed change via Christianity is born out by his actions. I don't think he's learned from his mistakes because like most spoiled rich kids, he's never needed to. (Some do anyway -- that's character in action.)

So while I agree with your assessment of his character, I don't think that drug use or other ghosts from the past necessarily preclude someone from being a good and reponsible person NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

NicoleC,

Yes ma'am. I agree about making mistakes and learning from them, but of course you must admit those mistakes and make amends. Mr. Bush misused alcohol (and possibly cocaine) as an adult at 40 years old; he was not a juvenile or a young man. A person that does not have his life together at 40 does not have the character to be president, in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:24 PM

Gee Bob, how much longer are you going to go on punishing President Bush?

I don't believe Bush was AWOL or a deserter. I think he likely got permission to be absent from drills. As I recall (from four years in the National Guard)a commanding officer has a lot of latitude when dealing with those in his command.

And I agree with Teribus. Garg's answer seemed appropriate to me when I read it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:32 PM

Well, first of all, the Dems may have their hands tied behind their backs on the issue since the voters have been properly conditioned by the right wing and the media to yell, "Foul!", at the slightest attack on one of their own's character.

But you notice that they don't mind dragging out that worn out "tax and spend liberal" crap.

Total hypocrisy...

And secondly, the media who is very much in bed with the current administartion and should be asking the tough questions... won't.

So look fir this one to remain a Mexican stalemate.

*But*, I'd love to be wrong on this and see either Kerry or Clark, both vets, try to smoke Bush out on this one issue because I very much believe that once the American people get over their denial and see Bush for what he really is there won't be enough PR folks to put Humpdy Dumpty back together again...

Bobert

p.s. I'll leave Bush's Faith issues, or lack there of, up to the Big Guy. That's His job...

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:35 PM

Rapaire,

your answer actually does not make sense. It is quite possible to murder someone and not get caught or convicted. You're still a murderer. And if the only thieves were the people who had already been caught and convicted of thievery, very little would get stolen! Bush could well be a deserter who never got tried or convicted.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 04:37 PM

Just a follow-up question for Rapaire: if you were held up at gunpoint and your wallet stolen, would you say that you were robbed by someone who someday might be transformed into a robber by a conviction from a court of law? Or would you say the guy was a robber?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:25 PM

Funny, Teribus--At the time senior was actually what--a senator or represenative? OR was he an ambassador by then? But dubya had clout through his dad. (I don't care enough about senior bush to go check it out).

Of course many people can explain Bush's absense--the "NO" answer cited above only means that they're all keeping it to themselves.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:32 PM

Details of the record are maintained at this website.

There is a difference between AWOL and desertion legally -- I believe it is 30 days or less is AWOL, more constitutes desertion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:36 PM

yes.

very simple answer, what part of 'yes' dont you understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:59 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice differentiates between desertion and AWOL as follows:

Article 85 (Desertion)
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another one of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.

Article 86 (Absence Without Leave)
Any member of the armed forces who, without authority--
(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;
(2) goes from that place; or
(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

However, Article 2.a(3) excludes Bush, since it says that the UCMJ only covers Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service. "When in Federal Service" means when an individual or guard unit have been activated. If anyone is really bored, the entire law is here.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:10 PM

Thanks art....this indicates the difference is in intent, then. But if the UCMJ is not applicable law, then what law applies to not-activated reserve units?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:49 PM

Its funny...
Bush, during his service, didn't really serve.
Clinton during his avoidance and protestation of the VietNam war probably did more for the personnel of the armed forces (not necessarily for the service) than Bush did.

AS an active duty service member I think what bothers me the most is that he refused to answer that one simple question about whether or not he used drugs. If he is serious about the Commander in Chief of the armed forces role, then he should be willing to answer the same question that all enlisted and officer candidates have to answer. Are you now using or have you ever used illicit drugs (simplified).
This simple question has precluded many people from serving for youthful indiscretion.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:59 PM

Amos, when I was an Army Reservist (which I was for 23 years), the penalty for missing 3 or more drills without being officially excused was being "red lined." That means transferred to the inactive reserve (if the person still had a military obligation) or discharged. What the rules were for the Texas Air Guard in the 70s is anyone's guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 08:10 PM

Teribus: Although I understand NO, it was the large, red, flashing NO, that threw me off.

Thanks to all of you for trying to enlighten me on this subject. When it gets right down to it, I have to agree that there is probably no point in dragging up the past.

Cruiser: My heart goes out to the many men and women who must serve "under" a Commander who couldn't even do his duty as a reservist. I detest war(declared or undeclared)but my grandfather, father, brother and husband all had to do their time. I fled to Canada so that my baby boy would not have to do the same. It was time to break the cycle of poor boys doing the rich man's dirty work.

I know that morale is low over there. I know that there has been a number of suicides. Its time to help those young men find an alternative to blowing out their brains. I only hope that an underground railway to Canada can be established. Can mutiny only occur on board a vessel? Now there's an act of courage!

P.S. Did you know that more children in Afghanistan have died as a result of 911 than all of the people in the World Trade Center? Isn't that enough revenge for now?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 09:05 PM

"I think he likely got permission to be absent from drills. As I recall (from four years in the National Guard)a commanding officer has a lot of latitude when dealing with those in his command."

you think he got permission? obviously you have no way of knowing that so your opinion is based only on your partisan views and has no factual context. and if he did, why would he not simply present that when queried and put the whole issue to rest? when politicians dodge questions it is usually because there's something they don't want us to know and this is true of dems and repubs.

"how much longer are you going to go on punishing President Bush?"

bush's "punishment" is nothing compared to the punishment of the families of those who died for his wicked agenda. he will never get what he truly deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: NH Dave
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:02 AM

From looking at the provisions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and having served with both Guard and Reserve units, I have to conclude that he made himself subject to charges of desertion by his year long absence.

A line a bit lower than the one that excused reservists not on active duty from the provisions of the UCMJ specifically says that reservists who are being brought up on charges to be disposed of under Article 15 or Courts Martial are indeed subject to these provisions.

Bushe joined the reserves during a time when many other young men were being drafted into military service snd being sent to Viet Nam. This was a cushy billit for one who had no desire to risk is own pink young ass in Viet Nam, and he should have been treated as if he were in active or Federal Service.

Other young reservists who fell behind on their drills or who failed to complete other training were threatened with involuntary activation for a period of up to one year, which might well fine them serving in Viet Nam. As an active duty NCO, working with several Guard units, I saw this treatened many times and actually done on one occasion.

Unfortunately Bush had friends and relatives in high places, which resulted in him being treated far better than most young airmen and officers. Whether he would actually been ordered to serve in Nam is a debatable point as his AF job description was F-102 pilot, and we didn't have F-102s in Nam. It is possible that he might have been activated, and then sent to Upgrade Training in, say, the F-4, or the F-100, birds that were actually being used in Viet Nam, but it is moot now, unless an opponent drags it out and makes an issue of it during the presidential campaign.

I think most military folks would agree that he deserted, but so fat it hasn't bitten him in the butt.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:13 AM

dianavan,

You have brought up a very good point, re. The Commander-in Chief aspect of a President's duties.

Under the opinions of those detailed above in general it should therefore become a qualification for potential Presidential candidates that:

- They can never have taken drugs

- They can never have been, or be, conscientious objectors

Another point that has come out is that, in the opinions of most posting to threads relating to this topic, all those who opted for National Guard and Air National Guard service during the entire period of the USA's involvement in Vietnam were well connected, cowardly shirkers. This, of course, is complete and utter rubbish, as service in neither precluded the possibility that they could not be called upon to serve in a combat capacity. Many ANG Units did and performed with distinction.

F-102's were used in Vietnam, flown by ANG units. I believe they were withdrawn in either 1968 or 1969.

Individual pilots within the ANG would not normally be singled out for cross training on a different type of aircraft. That would be done by unit and it would take around 12 months to get a squadron up to operational standard. Longer if the function of the squadron was to change (e.g. for Interceptor role to a Tactical Recon role, or Ground Attack role) as the type of flying and the skills required vary greatly.

In the case of the suggested training for Lt. G. W. Bush, i.e. cross train from F-102's to F-4's, one is a single seat all weather interceptor, the other, employed in a similar capacity, is a two seat all weather interceptor. The way of fighting the aircraft is completely different.

Was he a deseter - No he was not.

Did he go AWOL - As far as the ANG are concerned - No he didn't, otherwise charges would have been brought at the time.

GUEST,guest from NW - 27 Jan 04 - 09:05 PM

Your response to DougR's post:

"you think he got permission? obviously you have no way of knowing that so your opinion is based only on your partisan views and has no factual context"

In exactly the same you have no way of knowing that he did not have anyone's permission, but the FACT that no disciplinary action was taken, tends to indicate that he did get permission.

DougR also stated that his opinion was based on four years personal experience in serving with the National Guard, so the, "your opinion is based only on your partisan views and has no factual context." Is way off the mark and out of order.

guest from NW - what exactly is your personal experience of the military?

NH Dave - 28 Jan 04 - 02:02 AM

Accepted that you served in (National) Guard and Reserve (National) Guard Units. Anyone who comes out and states as categorically as you have done that....."Bush joined the reserves during a time when many other young men were being drafted into military service and being sent to Viet Nam. This was a cushy billet for one who had no desire to risk is own pink young ass in Viet Nam, and he should have been treated as if he were in active or Federal Service." ....obviously has no conceptual idea whatsoever about the training of a combat rated pilot.

I am sure there are some Mudcat Members or Guests who have undergone such training, you yourself may even know someone who has undergone such training. If you do, please tell them that in your opinion their training could be described as a "cushy billet". They will look at you as though you were mad.

The learning to fly part of it is the easy bit, learning to fight your aircraft is the hard (and extremely high risk) part. F-102's, I described above as single seat all weather interceptor aircraft. Fighting such an aircraft (i.e. getting rated as operational) involves you having to fly in close formation with at least one other aircraft in some pretty shitty weather. The risk of mid-air collision is high, the level of concentration required is immense, you are extremely lucky if you survive making just one mistake in your entire flying career.

According to those who flew with Lt. G. W. Bush, he was a good pilot - knowing something about that training and the standards required - I'll take their word for it at face value, unless of course the "pack" wish to condemn them on the basis of no evidence as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 05:06 AM

"... has no factual context. and if he did, why would he not simply present that when queried and
put the whole issue to rest? when politicians dodge questions it is usually because there's something they don't want us to know and this is true of dems and repubs."

in your usual fashion, teribus, you take things out of context and twist them to fit your meaning. you'll note that in my response to doug i never offered an opinion as to whether or not he had permission and i don't think having been in the military offers doug any more knowledge about the FACTS in this case that you or i have. my point was that the FACT that bush does not address the question would "tend to indicate" that there may be something he would not like us to know.

having served in the military offers absolutely no more knowledge about the answer to this question than not. my remark is correct and is not out of order in any way.

i served in the military during the vietnam war but did not have to go to vietnam. not that it's any of your buisness or has any relevance to the point we are discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:33 AM

GUEST,guest from NW

"you think he got permission? obviously you have no way of knowing that so your opinion is based only on your partisan views and has no factual context."

Now what exactly did I take out of context with regard to those two statements. Mark you, it would help a great deal if you actually started your sentences by hitting the upper-case, it would make for much easier reading.

As for, ".....i don't think having been in the military offers doug any more knowledge about the FACTS in this case that you or i have."

I agree it does not offer more knowledge about the FACTS, but, what having been in the military does do, is, it provides better insight into how things actually work within the military.

You served in the regular US Forces, DougR served in the US National Guard, I served in the Royal Navy. So if something came up that related to the military, I would put much more weight on your opinion relating to the US regular forces than an opinion by someone who had never had your experience. Similarly DougR has a far better insight into how things work in a National Guard unit than either you or I have even although, both you and I have served in the military.

Regarding FACTS, the ONE unassailable FACT relating to this subject is that there were NO charges brought, that is a matter of record, so what has to be elaborated upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: NH Dave
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:00 AM

Sorry, Teribus, I served in the Regular Army and then in the Regular Air Force and was one of the folks that traveled around Guard and Reserve bases training their people on new-to-them aircraft or electronics systems. Initially I took a dim view of both of these fine organizations, but when I discovered that a Guard unit, flying nearly obsolete cargo aircraft, were performing weekly flights to Viet Nam, and often logging more time-in-the-air than local Regular units - having an old, slow aircraft helped there.

This having been said, I still found the Guard and Reserves filled with folks who counted their lucky stars that they were serving in the US as opposed to foreign shores, or had pulled strings to get this billit. The ones that got so slack that they started missing drills or skiving off during drills were frequently threatened with mandatory activation for a year, during which time they might get sent to Nam, and sometimes they were actually activated and did go overseas, which tweaked their attitudes nicely.

Serving with our forces and often beside your forces showed me lots of people who were working like slaves to perform the mission of their units. Sometimes they failed, but they always give it their all, and their units shone for their efforts.

Over the years I served in bomber, cargo and fighter wings so I have a fairly good idea of how AF and Army pilots are trained, and as someone already said, for the most part, individuals are usually not retrained into another type of aircraft uless the whole unit is retrained to change their mission, modernize their force, or occasionally allow an individual to transfer to a unit that is physically nearer to him or her work or abode.

If memory serves, Bush flew for an interceptor squadron located in Texas, and while his initial flight training was tough, I doubt he flew many bad weather missions; Texas rarely has fog, and only the occasional tornado, during which all aircraft are either tied down securely, of flown to another airfield out of the region of the bad weather. This in no way compares with serving in SE England, where fog and rain are a constant companion tha you either learn how to coexist with or die tryhing. It is also a far cry from serving in South East Asia with its monsoons, typhoons, and generally terrible weather, with others actually trying to shoot you out of the sky. By the time Bush was in the Guard most of our fighter air work in SEA was over, as we were trying to Vietnamese the air war. We did have many long range bomber missions from Guam and Thailand, done by large slow B-52s, flying hundreds of miles for a brief terrifying period over Hanoi or another area in North Viet Nam where even the civilians were shooting antique weapons at you.

I doubt that Bush would have been retrained into Buffs, since he hadn't enough time in his enlistment to upgrade and then serve a tour in StrategiC Air Command. But I still don't think he fulfilled his obligation to serve in his aborted Guard tour.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 03:42 PM

Amos: thanks for providing us a link to that "fair and impartial" website. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 05:47 PM

teribus, do you care to address the actual point of my first and second posts, which were:

"and if he did, why would he not simply present that (answer) when queried and put the whole issue to rest? when politicians dodge questions it is usually because there's something they don't want us to know and this is true of dems and repubs."

and:

"my point was that the FACT that bush does not address the question would "tend to indicate" that there may be something he would not like us to know."

or would you rather criticize my writing preferences, go on about how your or anyone's military experience gives their answer here more credibility (which i don't believe it does) or continue to assert the logically deficient idea that since no one was prosecuted therefore no crime was commited?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:56 PM

Some documented facts concerning this issue...


Here are what appear to be the known facts, laid out recently in considerable detail and documentation by retired pilot and Air National Guard First Lt. Robert A. Rogers, and in a 2003 book, "The Lies of George W. Bush," by David Corn.


1. George W. Bush graduated from Yale in 1968 when the war in Vietnam was at its most deadly and the military draft was in effect. Like many of his social class and age, he sought to enter the National Guard, which made Vietnam service unlikely, and fulfill his military obligation. Competition for slots was intense; there was a long waiting list. Bush took the Air Force officer and pilot qualification tests on Jan. 17, 1968, and scored the lowest allowed passing grade on the pilot aptitude portion.


2. He, nevertheless, was sworn in on May 27, 1968, for a six-year commitment. After a few weeks of basic training, Bush received an appointment as a second lieutenant - a rank usually reserved for those completing four years of ROTC or 18 months active duty service. Bush then went to flight school and trained on the F-102 interceptor fighter jet. Fighter pilots were in great demand in Vietnam at the time, but Bush wound up serving as a "weekend warrior" in Houston, where his father's congressional district was centered.


A Houston Chronicle story published in 1994, quoted in Corn's book, has Bush saying: "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."


3. Sometime after May 1971, young Lt. Bush stopped participating regularly in Guard activities. According to Texas Air National Guard records, he had fewer than the required flight duty days and was short of the minimum service owed the Guard. Records indicate that Bush never flew after May 1972, despite his expensive training and even though he still owed the National Guard two more years.


4. On May 24, 1972, Bush asked to be transferred to an inactive reserve unit in Alabama, where he also would be working on a Republican senate candidate's campaign. The request was denied. For months, Bush apparently put in no time at all in Guard service. In August 1972, Bush was grounded – suspended from flying duties – for failing to submit to an annual physical exam. (Why wouldn't he take this exam from a doctor?)


5. During his 2000 presidential campaign, Bush's staff said he recalled doing duty in Alabama and then returning to Houston for still more duty. But the commander of the Montgomery, AL, unit where Bush said he served told the Boston Globe that he had no recollection of Bush - son of a congressman - ever reporting, nor are there records, as there should be, supporting Bush's claim. Asked at a press conference in Alabama on June 23, 2000 what duties he had performed as a Guardsman in that state, Bush said he could not recall, "but I was there."


6. In May, June and July, 1973, Bush suddenly started participating in Guard activities back in Houston again - pulling 36 days at Ellington Air Base in that short period. On Oct. 1, 1973, eight months short of his six-year service obligation and scheduled discharge, Bush apparently was discharged with honors from the Texas Air National Guard (eight months short of his six-year commitment). He then went to Harvard Business School.


Documents supporting these reports, released under Freedom of Information Act requests, appear along with Rogers' article on the web.


In the absence of full disclosure by the President or his supporters, only the President and perhaps a few family or other close associates know the whole truth. And they're not talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Bush a deserter?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:26 PM

This is all the information I need and more. Thanks!

Its obvious to me that he has no business being Commander in Chief.

I wish this info would get out to the rest of the world. Especially the troops in Iraq.

d