Folklore: Pogue Mahone

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:52 PM

ps the dating is getting older and older and older, every decade since the explosion of celtic studies programs. university of toronto has a great one. of course there are many in scotland and ireland.

the bannytine society has preserved thousands of manuscripts of which only a third have been translated. there's acedemic careers there for thos interested.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:46 PM

old irish was one of the first and oldest written languages in europe. most of what people think of as old irish is actually the literature of late medieval irish and not the old irish. all the gaelics are dialects of old irish, not separatr languages as some say. my gaelic isn't so good but when i was out on the west coast of sithern irish there weretimes i understood basic things better tan the local english. like doractions on the roads and how ro find food drink and a "rest station. which musch surprised me.

there are existing manuscripts from the 9th century, i believe but i would have to look that up. ducuils may be the oldest, again i'd need to research ot. however it's known that the copyists were already recopying from the time of christ for some works, and probably earlier for a few.

after the celtic church was established, they were the educated and literate people in europe out side byzintine territory. they were the denizens of the scriptoriums , so familiar in myth and fact. the irish monks(or those trained in the irish tradition) communicated with each other over thousands of miles and decades byt writting "glosses in the margins of the manuscripts. this is how the oldest irish was rediscovered. theirneissen, the great german philogist, collected all the glosses, and reconstructed the language. with many students they were able to get a complete picture of the language. these copyists wrote poems, a few phrases of music, gossip and theological discussions. most of these monks were dstill pelagians, a catholc heresy, so they hid it in the gaelic glosses.

these copyists were well established in ireland in ad 200, in iona by 450, in lindisfarne(holy island and its branch harrow) by ad 600, across central germany italy by 900 to 1100, all the way to slovenia,where the poem panguar ban was written.

one of the oldest tales gives exact and detailed discriptions of a chariot used circa 1800 bce by central suropean gauls. a chariot style never seen in ireland . showing the teaxts preserved details millenoium old.

the earliest gaelic is found on ogham on stones. hard to date bu there are attemps/

i just had a operation, but i'll try to look up the oldest known irish writing.

the older the writing the more complicted the grammar. the oldest versions have a case and mode system much more complicated than latin,if any of you remember latin class. this allowed the same meaning to be written in about a third the space--very good when you are writting on stones, and allowing poetic complications not easily understandable to anyone who is not familiar with cases and modes. scotts gaelic preserves some of this but not much. an example is you don't have to say "he said " or she said" in scotts, the case change tells you when a woman or man is speaking. you don't have to explain deferential and bowing down talk, the case change tells you you are defering and speaches by the powerfull tell you by case not extra words the speaker is powerfull.

this gets very very complicated in the oldest irish.

so in a general answer, theoldest irish was mostly written down by irish chuch monks from the second century. possibly by druids of the same era. many manuscripts were altered to conform to christianity but a lot is preserved. i would guess it was written quite a bit from the trun of the centuries from bce to ad

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:38 PM

Can anyone tell me when the Irish language was first written down? and by whom?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Oh, that's weird - I posted a silly reply that I can't be bothered replicating, and it didn't post!

But the purpose of that posting was to direct people to the http://www.abair.tcd.ie site, where you can type in any word or phrase in Irish and have it pronounced, in either Donegal or Connemara pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ollaimh
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:35 PM

my irish is weak, but in scotts gaidhlig the pog is prounounced pok, ma, han(rhymes with pawn)

in ole cape breton it was a common familiar greeting between young guys. don't say it to a girl if she has brothers or uncles.

right up there with"are ya workin" byes"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM

Our band BLARNEY got together recently to record an impromptu performance of our original drinking song "Pogue Mo Hone (A Song in Praise of Drinking)", in our build-up to our annual St. Paddy's Pub Nite gig.
I wrote most of the song while walking my dog a couple of years ago. The tune is about 99% "Rosin the Bow".

BLARNEY sings "Pogue Mo Hone"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Quiet Friday
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 12:01 PM

On the reabsorption of European names from America - the name 'Floyd' is apparently derived from the pronunciation by Ellis Island immigration officers of the Welsh 'Lloyd'. I wonder if 'Mahoney' might be derived from a slightly lackadaisical registration of Gaelic-speaking Irish immigrants.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:22 PM

I remember an interview many years ago where Shane MacGowan translated the band's name as "Kiss my hole" rather than "Kiss my arse". I don't know how well that stands up in strict etymological terms, but I've always liked the fact that it's that little bit ruder.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 02:48 PM

Mahone is a family name in Nova Scotia, and there is a Mahone Bay not terribly far from Halifax - scene of some naval action in the American War of Independence - and a 'wooden boat' free-for-all each summer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Patrick in Billings
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:21 AM

Alice, a group of us play Irish Trad there every Friday evening. Great fun
Great place to have a meal also. Wish I owned the place
Patrick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 04:31 AM

It's great to see this thread revived. Despite the slight unpleasantness early on, it developed into a great discussion.

I often wondered what happened to An Púca - I always enjoyed his contributions here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:10 PM

Well John, the translation would be the same but in Scots Gaelic there is a bit less softening of the consonants. Pog mo thon would sound as "pawk mo hawn" rather than "pogue mo hone" . In either dialect the message would be "kiss my arse" and would be mutually and clearly understood. :-}

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,John
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM

Can anyone tell me the Scottish translation for Pouge Mahone ? much appreciated

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Joxer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:36 AM

"lee-road-ee"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,kazwaz1977
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM

I only wanted to know how you pronounce liathroidi - can anyone help please?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,GUEST,Stronggyrl
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Thank you all... I have not laughed my arse off like I did reading all the above entries in quite sometime...

Best of the new year!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:42 AM

There are several surnames such as Mahon McMahon O Mahoney etc which come from the Gaelic names Ó Mathúna or MacMathúna, rather than being anything to do with Mo Thóin. I havent come across anyone in this country that had an e (without a Y) in the name. It may be an American thing.

I've just checked the Dublin 'phone directory and there are no 'Mahone's in it, but many people with the other variants.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Jess
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:26 AM

On the note that many people seem leery that Mahone is an actual surname - it was my grandmother's maiden name and it does indeed rhyme with 'my home'. I'm unsure as to whether it is entirely an American-Irish surname, as I am researching the origins of this surname as I type (which is how I came across this fabulous site!!).

As a humorous side note, growing up in a predominately American-Irish area, the children at my grandmother's elementary school used to shout "pog mo thoin" every time her last name was mentioned. Luckily my grandmother had a wonderful sense of humor. :D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

The story popular around here is of the English roofer who got a job roofing a house out by Spanish Point Covent (known locally as Penguin Island). His workmates persuaded him that Pogue Mahone was Irish for 'good morning' so, being the polite feller he was, he would call it out to every nun that passed. He never understood why they all sprinted off at a rate of knots.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Nikon D40
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:10 AM

Gadzooks!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Grid
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Arseholes are cheap today
Cheaper than yesterday...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Alice
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

I have to laugh whenever I see or hear the ads for this popular restaurant in Billings, Montana. Most people in Montana have no idea this name is a take off from kiss my ass, (corrupting Pogue to Pug).   Click here, Pug Mahon's, Billings, Montana

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:59 AM

There is, of course, the story of the first broadway production of The Hostage. Brendan Behan was acting as an advisor to the director, and explained that most Irish homes have a framed picture saying "God Bless this House", in Irish, hung on the wall. Behan generously offered to make such a sign for the set.

It was several weeks before the director found out what Pog mo thoin actually meant...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

Well, I'm glad this fascinating thread has been revived! Long years ago, my uncle Geordie (in a small place in Donegal) was told, insultingly and "as Beurla", to "kiss my arce". He replied, swiftly and Swift-ly, "If ye'd clean it I might kick it for ye".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Stephen R.
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:04 PM

Most people have probably heard of the legendary Pogue carburetor or carburettor if you like, designed by the Canadian inventor Charles Nelson Pogue in the 1930s and said by some to achieve 200 miles per gallon. It was never produced commercially, because, some say, it was suppressed by the oil companies, which wanted to maximize consumption of gasoline/petrol.

Several years ago a case of Pogue carburetors turned up in an old warehouse in Winnipeg (Pogue intended to call it the "Winnipeg" Carburetor), and were acquired by an engineer named Kevin Mohone. The engineer found that the carburetor performed poorly, but he expected that it would, because the composition of gasoline has changed significantly in the past seventy years. He re-engineered the carburetor to use with today's fuels, and plans to market it as the "Pogue-Mahone Winnipeg Carburetor."

Stephem

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 09:35 AM

"What tiler led the Pedants Revolt?"

Although I'm not exactly LOL, I am chuckling inwardly. Good work!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Brakn
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:06 AM

I didn't think that Mahone was a surname but there are 53 Mahones listed in th 2002 UK electoral register.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:33 AM

What tiler led the Pedants Revolt?

I've no idea.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Raven
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 01:19 AM

From an Aussie point of view, 'Kiss my arse' is widely used over here as a reply to anything that doesn't deserve a dignified response. Also is has been twisted into 'suck a fart' or 'tounge me (my)pucker'....instead of saying 'kiss my arse you idiot', one might say, 'go suck a fart ya wanker' or 'tounge me pucker ya fucker'

other words you may wish to discuss the origins of are;

Nong - a simple person
Bludger - lazy person, layabout
Bodgy - of inferior quality
Brown-eyed mullet - a turd in the sea (where you're swimming)
Chunder - vomit
Cark it - to die, cease functioning
Clacker - pucker, date, cackpipe, poochute or bumhole
Goopsock - comdom

Now I've given you all the shits......I'll rack off.

PS. Great dynamic you got there.
Raven

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Tanderagee in County Armagh, Toin-re-gaeith, meaning backside to the wind, built on a hill slope facing east, away from the prevailing westerly winds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:07 AM

I love these discussions of the history, etymology and pedantry behind simple music but does anyone know who lead the pedants revolt?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fear Faire
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:28 PM

Tóin an Bhaile is the name of one end of Rann na Feirste - the bottom of the town(land). Bhuail could sound like "bhfuil" from a Rann na Feirste native. "Bhuail scláta mo chloigeann ar Thóin an Bhaile" possibly - a slate hit my head in Tóin an Bhaile.

Tóin is quite a common element in Irish placenames - the most interesting one being those that are called Tóin le Gaoth or Tóin re Gaoth - arse to the wind - denoting the last resort of sheltering one would suppose. These are anglicised in different ways but the Armagh version Tandaragee would be the best known to Mudcatters and singers I would imagine. Tonragee the most common anglicisation.

FF

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:46 PM

or maybe 'a slate hit me from the back of the house', though I don't know that it should not be 'bhi me...', rather than 'bhfuil me...'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:17 PM

In 1983 a great old guy named Frank Shean walked up to me on the main road in Rann na Feirsde and, pointing to a large bruise on his forehead, said, "Bfhuil me mo sclata cleagann ar toin a bhaile" (pardon my rusty fast spelling.) That transliterally means "I hit the board of my head on the arse of the house"...ie "I hit my forehead on the back of the house".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:02 AM

What about `em? Any three-chord wonder band who knows how to shout obscenities at the top of their lungs can do what they do.

So, obviously, they are a good time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: TS
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

What about The Mahones?..great Celtic-Rock type band from Kingston Ontario...lots of Pogue(or at least McGowan) references in their songs....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:24 AM

I thought by now that someone would have mentioned Family Mahone a real bunch of ***holes fronted by Radio 1 DJ Mark Radcliffe.
Seen them several times worth seeing live. They have a web site somewhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: TS
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM

too many threads to read em all...so sorry if I'm re-wording anyone else....I dont think there's any great indepth reason for the term..simply gaelic is it not?.."pog mo thoin"...kiss my arse.....slainte!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bridget
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM

Thank you all! Feeling like the only Irish descendent stuck in an midwestern USA German-Dutch town, I saw "Pog ma Thoin" on a bumpersticker, and finally found the meaning here -- am LOL!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Squinty
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM

For what it's worth, Pogue Mahone is in fact just an anglicised spelling of the Irish (Gaelic) phrase póg mó thóin (the accents indicate long vowels) which does simply mean kiss my ass, or arse as we tend to say in Ireland.

What a fascinating thread on a fascinating website.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM

JOHN KERRY POGUE MO BREACHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pierre
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 03:14 PM

Chantier "Canadian French meaning a lumberjack's cabin" - mon cul - peut etre c'est francais pour un "workshop". Qui sait.

Subject: RE: pedantic crack
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

more arguments re crack vs craic are at Pedantic crack (at the beginning of the thread)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:04 PM

liathróidí are balls, but testicles are colloquially referred to as stones, at least by Scottish Gaelic speakers I've heard

I don't have time just now to search for info., but I though shanty towns were originally where Irish emigrants stayed. You're welcome to offer evidence pro or contrary.I don't know how long the word has been in English. I do think I've read it in American novels circa 1920-30. You'd have to consider the use of "tigh" in Irish at the time the word shanty starts appearing in English rather than its use at present

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

Martin

A great one I heard once about the Irish national anthem. A group of musicians playing in a pub were asked to play the one with le words "Shoving Connie around the field" in it. No one knew what was being requested. Persistence of insistence the pestilence which followed. Then the enlightenment - "every band plays it, usually the last thing they play." Seo libh canaidh amhrán na bhfiann!

Now there's a phonetic version for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM

Or an Ashanti dwelling

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM

Felipa: I agree with you about the usual aspect that the adjective nearly always follows the noun in Irish. There are of course exceptions as in "an sean bhean bhoct" and Peig Sayers' autobiography "Machtnamh Seana Mhna." However to throw a spanner in the works according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Shanty" could possibly be Canadian French "chantier" meaning a "lumberjack's cabin".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:15 AM

Tony sans Cookie: As an intersting aside, in Father Peter O'Leary's autobiography "Mo Sgeal Fein" in one chapter entitled "Tri Liathroidi Dubha" (Three Black Balls) he describes as as young school boy seeing what appeared to him to be three slender poles with three black balls on top of them on the top of Macroom Castle. He later found out that they were iron spikes holding the skulls of three executed men.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:45 AM

This afternoon, I take a class on Irish Songs and Singing with some foreign students. Amongst other things, they asked me to teach them the Irish National Anthem, which is always sung in Irish/Gaelic. "No problem" thinks I, "I'm sure I can find a phonetic version somewhere on the Net.". Which I did, of course. Mind you, the author of the site, who cannot seem to bring himself to mention the word "English", seems to be under the impression that the song was originally written in Irish and provides a translation into "American" - which is Kearney's original English !

There's nowt as strange as folk!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Daithi
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:29 AM

Fascinating stuff for sure...here's another for you: how about codger = cairde? Some nonGaeilge speaker , upon hearing a Gaeilgeoir address his mates as "A Chairde!" took the word to mean old duffers.
(Ok, ok, bainfidh mé mo chóta...)