BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History

Subject: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM

I thought this might be fun, and I think we need some nice, healthy insanity. I'm only starting with Ring Around the Rosey because it's a real good example.

Somebody needs to tell those people over in that thread that it's about Ye Olde Blacke Deathe. Don't they know anything? (It sounds more like mumps to me, but hey...)

Anyway, that was pretty good, but we could do better. I figure the rhyme's about folks dancing around a potted flowering plant at a wedding reception. Somebody spilled an ash tray, and everybody went "oopsie."

Then again, maybe there was a prostitute in London in the upteen-hundreds named Rosie...

Anyway, please don't feel like you have to confine yourself to this rhyme.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:02 PM

I'm not sure what your basic premise is. Is it "well known facts that aren't," since Ring Around the Rosie is generally considered to have no connection to the Black Plague? Clarify, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: susu
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:10 PM

There once was a man from Nantucket
who had a .........oops wrong site.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:30 PM

Artbrooks, yes, sort of. "Well-known facts that aren't because I just invented them." Repeating things you heard is fine, as long as you claim you, a close personal friend or someone they knew wrote them.

I was being sarcastic with the 'somebody should tell them' thing, since the plague story been posted quite a few times already in the 'Origins' thread.

I thought it might be fun to write some 'tall tales' about the origins of songs and rhymes. I thought of a better one than what I wrote above a couple of days ago, but I don't want to put stuff like that in a serious music thread.

We may still have some people around Mudcat who enjoy writing and/or being silly. I wouldn't be too surprised to find we either don't or that this idea simply doesn't blow anybody's skirt up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM

I think it's about folks dancing around a flowering pot plant. "Pockets full of posey" are, like, man, the flowers and stuff, yah know? Ashes are all we got left after we eat the roach, and since it's good stuff we all fall down.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:46 PM

It's fun to do that sort of thing, but unfortunately the kind of people who incessantly post the same old rubbish to long threads without bothering to read them first are so ignorant and gullible that within ten minutes they'll be back here repeating our jokes as fact (and ancient, pre-christian fact, come to that). Within a day or two, the joke will have spread across the web, appearing on neo-pagan and "celtic" sites as incontrovertible ancient wisdom.

We'll then spend the next few years being accused of bigotry or "purism", or of being "folk police", when the little fellows pop up here and announce the findings of their "research" and we fall about laughing.

Life is too short. The "folk fibbers" of the 1950s-70s have already left more lies and misinformation behind them than we are ever likely to be able to disentangle. Let's not add to the mess. We may get a laugh out of it (presumably they did) but we'd just be laying up trouble for those who come after.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:22 PM

So, Douglas....

Does that include tall tales? Does anyone over the age of reason believe that Pecos Bill has to shoot his bouncing bride, Slew Foot Sue, to prevent her from starving to death? That Paul Bunyan built an oil derrick so high that he had to hinge the top to let the moon past? That Stormalong really had a boat so large that the White Cliffs of Dover are white because its sides scraped both edges of the English Channel? That Febold Feboldson grew turnips so big that he hollowed one out and used it for a barn? That the soil in Illinois is so fertile that if you drop a seed of corn you have to immediately jump back or you'll be carried into the sky? That during one extremely hot summer the corn started popping on the cob, covered the field with popcorn, and some nearby cattle/mules/horses thought that it was snow and froze to death? That I was out riding, saw a Blue Norther blowing up, and it came on so fast that although I galloped as fast as the horse would go when I got into the barn I found that the back end of my sweating horse was covered with snow and his tail was frozen?

I mean, anyone besides me?

And yet...Jim Bridger told of the echo alarm clock and the glass mountain, and these passed into truths as the stories traveled Eastward and eventually were written into British travel guides.

And why not create a history? The truth is out there...and doing research never hurt anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:33 PM

Okay, then here's one even a total moron couldn't possibly mistake for factual...

THREE SIX NINE

Three six nine
The goose drank wine
The monkey chewed tobacco on the street car line
The line broke
The monkey got choked
And they all went to Heaven in a little green boat


This seemingly innocent children's rhyme is absolutely relpete with Satanic and drug-related imagery.

Line 1: "Three six nine" 3+6+9=18. Another way to express 18 is 6x3 which is merely another way of saying 666, the mark of the beast. This sets the stage for the debauchery that pervades the rest of the song.

Line 2: "The goose drank wine" Need we say more. At least the initial drug mentioned, wine, is a relatively benign one.

Line 3: "The monkey chewed tobacco on the street car line" "Monkey" is an obvious reference to heroin addiction. The "monkey" is riding the street car to go buy the fix that he so desperately needs. He's chewing tobacco on the way to try to calm his jitters and cold sweats.

Line 4: "The line broke" "Line" is an obvious reference to a line of powdered drug waiting to be "snorted". Though more commonly used as a method of ingesting cocaine, snorting is one way in which heroin can be taken if a hypodermic syringe is not available. But, in this case, "the line broke" plainly means that the heroin was no good, possibly even deliberately poisoned. Had the "monkey" pissed someone off?

Line 5: "The monkey got choked" The drug addict or "monkey" snorted the poisoned dope and immediately went into severe, ultimately fatal, seizures.

Line 6: "And they all went to Heaven in a little green boat" The drug dealers, having gotten the troublesome "monkey" out of the way settled back with pipes of opium. Opium intoxication is often considered a "heavenly" high. And opium pipes are often made of brass which turns green with age from verdigris. Thus, the "little green boat" is nothing but an opium pipe that could use a bit of polish.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM

I apologize, Malcolm, for addressing you by your surname. I meant your first name, and no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Teresa
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:45 PM

hmmm, reminds me of all the stories I heard about "puff the Magic Dragon" ... I don't believe a word of it.

Or "candy Man"?

:>

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:56 PM

None taken.

"Bee-Dubya" has just posted a very accurate parody of the kind of thing that appears on websites all over the place. What's frightening is that it is so close to what's actually out there that it reads just like the "real thing". Before long, it will appear out there as "the truth".

They do mistake that sort of thing for fact, because they are morons. They then publish it as fact (almost never with any source acknowledged) and innocent beginners find it, and repeat it...

...and so on. I've wasted so much time tracking all that sort of thing down to some kind of putative source (often, I'm afraid, this very mudcat) in order to answer people's questions as accurately as I can that I really don't want to add to the complete bollocks that the innocent idiots repeat all over the place.

Sorry if that sounds humourless. Practical jokes can be hilarious, but it's usually somebody else who has to clean up afterwards. Not so funny for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:22 PM

Yeah, I know, Malcolm. I'm a librarian and I clean up that sort of thing all the time.

Currently though, I'm working on

I'm a little Dutch girl dressed in blue
And here are the things that I like to do:
Salute to the Captain, bow to the Queen,
And turn my back on the dirty submarine.

You only THINK that it's a jump-rope rhyme, when in reality it encapsulates the the plans of the Dutch to conquer the World. If I don't post tomorrow you'll know that the Dutch got me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM

OK, then we have to make up a fake song too, and THEN fake up a history for THAT. And copyright it so we can make money off the thing when it gets stolen.

Right?

I'll take 10%.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:35 PM

Watch out for those Dutch submariners. They'll get you for sure if you go anywhere near water that's more than an inch deep. Centuries of practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:10 AM

Fakelore is, in itself, a form of folklore. Like urban legends. It's probably worth studying.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:35 AM

Ooh, I like this game. I don't feel responsible for morons. How about the little ditty from James Thurber's The Thirteen Clocks:
Hark, hark,
The dogs do bark,
The Duke is fond of kittens.
He likes to take their insides out and use their fur for mittens!

This is a pre-Christian midwinter rhyme, from serfs about their master. The "hark hark" was taken over when the Christians wanted their holiday to match the ones they were replacing, and that is why so many Christmas carols say Hark. When the lord came to claim his "droit de seigneur" with the recently-married village girls, the dogs set for alarms would bark; the "kittens" of course are slang for the women's parts the lords were after. The "he likes to take their insides out" is a reference to the early abortion techniques the villagers would practice to prevent keep their children their own. It is possible that one famous lord liked to make mittens out of the pubic hair of the ladies he got to deflower, but that part of the history is possibly allegorical.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:48 PM

Upon rereading:
"early abortion techniques the villagers would practice to prevent keep their children their own" should have read early abortion techniques the villagers would practice to keep their children their own OR prevent the lord from having any there.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:55 PM

Diddle diddle dumpling
My son Fred
Went to sea in a feather-bed
Drank his grog straight from the keg
then back to shore and bent a leg!

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:08 PM

Here we are at Ground Zero for new urban myths.

Here's one off the top of my ass:

Did you know that Jim Henson named Bert and Ernie for the only two authors he had read in his first year university Literature class, before dropping out to pursue a career in puppetry?... Albert Camus and and Ernest Hemingway.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:42 PM

Cluin, that's WAY too close to believable for some!

Martin, there are gullible people all over. Some don't get humor in any form and think someone's angry when they're being funny. Some just believe that guy in Nigeria really wants to give them a few million, that cell phones really make petrol tanks blow up, because "it sounds right." They may drive you (and me) crazy, but they undoubtedly suffer a lot because of their gullibility.

If 'tall tales' aren't allowed, there's a whole genre out the window. Kendall Morse (for one) will be in a lot of trouble. Jokes may be illegal, because many depend on a fake set up. If this thread manages to launch a new urban legend, you can also use this thread to prove it's complete bollocks.

WYS, are you talking about the song 'Darcy Farrow'?

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:34 PM

I agree with Dick Greenhaus about these fables being a kind of folklore, akin to urban legends.

In fact it would be quite interesting to come up with some completely original bit of nonsense, register it here as such, and then see how long it took before it started coming back as a "true explanation".

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:43 PM

It would also make an interesting study in the dissemination of information via the Internet, Kevin. A great dissertation topic -- do you have your doctorate? If not, here's a great chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:31 PM

Well, it's not generally known, but originally the song goes:

I've sailed the Wild River for many a year
And I've fished here for salmon where the water was clear
Now they're building a dam to hold the water in store
And I never will sail the Wild River no more.

cho: And it's no, no, never,
No no never no more,
Will I sail the Wild River,
No never no more.

The Wild River is another name for the Columbia River, and song was put together by Woody Guthrie, when he was on the Grand Coulee Dam project, but he never put it out, because it didn't really fit in with the message that the Dam was a great thing for everybody...

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Layah
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM

Well I know this thread is for fake information, but I just can't help chiming in when I know some useless trivia, so I will spoil it to tell you something real. Bert and Ernie were named for two characters from the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" I think they were the cops. Or one was a cop and the other was someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:38 PM

I knew that, Layah. (Damn! The useless information taking up berth in my grey matter) I was trying to start a new myth. See how long before it ends up on Snopes.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Boab
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:36 AM

Let's hear all about--
"Jack Spratt would eat no fat"
"Little Jack Horner"
"See-saw Marjory Daw"
"Little Boy Blue"
" Sing a song of Sixpence"
    ----I'm thirsty for knowledge---

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Bert
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 12:37 AM

FYI. Aiken Drum was really about George III.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:24 PM

Actually, there is something about Sing a Song of Sixpence, a pocket full of rye, but I don't remember it, only that it was the grain rye not the drink, and when you're dead, rye grows up out of the grave.
Or that might be the barley that grew up ditto on Colludon Moor... I may be confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:19 PM

Now are people coming up with explanations they've heard of somewhere else, which might even be true, or making them up from whole cloth, in line with Jeri's suggestion?

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:44 PM

Well - despite the fact that many people consider "Little Boy blue" to be a commentary on the sexual frustrations of young men under the Commonwealth, their susequent perversions and the assumed results of such practices - in truth it is a political commentary on the growing unease during Stuart period just prior.

"Little Boy Blue" being the military - in particular the Navy "come blow your horn" - sound the alarm. "The sheep's in the meadow" - the gullible public being led astray. "The cow's in the corn" - in particular the "cow" being Cromwell "in the corn" meanin g coming into power.

"Where is the boy who looks after the sheep ?" what is the king doing?

"He's under the haystack - " - totally oblivious

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 05:12 PM

Jeri, the Crown in Trunch is only a couple of miles from me. Maybe one night I'll go down there and see if I can dig up some history for you. It's a pub I've never visited but as you know, Trunch is quite famous for remarkable discoveries.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 06:50 PM

Jon, I've heard about The Crab Wars from The Kipper Family, but I don't know about other discoveries.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:19 PM

That's what I meant Jeri - the Kipper family.

As for the crab wars, I'm not a great eater of crawly creatures (or most fish either come to that) from the sea but both Cromer and Sheringham are towns where you can get locally "fished" crab.

On eating, I prefer Sheringham for a rather nice ice cream shop... on the other hand, the Cromer does have an "Indian" we use and enjoy...

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 02:39 AM

The real name of the late Junior Samples from Hee Haw fame was actually Alvin Hitler Jr. The family changed the last name in 1938 when Alvin was 12 years old, for obvious reasons. The new name "Samples" was chosen because Junior's father was a travelling carpet salesman. His carryall already had "SAMPLES" embossed on it, so that was the name he adopted. The rest is Create-a-History.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:35 AM

I made mine up out of holey cloth.

Subject: RE: BS: Ring Around the Facts - Create-a-History
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:06 AM

It's a little known fact that Ernie's name was originally spelled Urnie. He is named after the urn in which Jim Henson used to keep his grandmother's ashes. Once Henson became wealthy, he transferred her ashes to a fancier container, and changed the spelling of Ernie's name to hide the truth...

Similarly, Kermit the Frog was originally McDermott the Frog, and was an Irish nationalist back in the 70s. In one sketch, he made a trip to Belfast, and learned that "It's not Easy Being Green." Miss Piggy was originally Mr. Piggy, the cop sent out after McDermott. He was always trying to catch McDermott in those days, which translated neatly to Miss Piggy trying to trap Kermit into marriage in the later episodes.