BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire

Subject: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:37 AM

I know.
We have had them before.
But this has an auspicious start with the new Palestinian leader, President of Egypt and King of Jordan all in attendance.
Of course, the Western news media may have made the whole thing up...

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Teresa
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:52 AM

I'm open to being optomistic, but I will believe it all when I see it.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 03:55 AM

Yeah, I heard that earlier today. & didn't they infer (on the radio program I heard today) that condi rice was there to make it all happen? surely it will last forever if she was there, right? After all, they've only been fightin' over that spot on the globe since what--In the old testament early days?
   Yes, it would be wonderful if it would really last. I pray for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:45 AM

They ran out of bullets temporarily?

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:59 AM

The proof of the pudding.....

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:09 AM

Israel has long been the US' cop for the region, and it is no secret that Sharon was Bush's boy. Also no coincidence that all the so-called "movement" on the peace process is occurring in the wake of the second Bush inauguration.

But the facts belie this "breakthrough" being a genuine breakthrough, because Hammas won the local elections by a landslide, and Hammas ain't backin' Abbas. The Palestinians voted for peace, just not the Palestinian Authority/Abbas version of peace.

This situation is reminiscent of when the more politically radical Sinn Fein started winning elections in the North, at the expense of the politically moderate SDLP. We're seeing the same dynamic here. The political power in the region is still in the hands of the US and Israel, and every Palestinian knows this, and knows they won't get anything close to a fair settlement from an appeasement regime like Abbas', just like the Northern Irish Republican community knew it would never get a fair settlement from an appeasement party like the SDLP.

Paletstinians sent a very clear message: we want peace, but we want a just, lasting peace, and that won't come without the hardline Palestinian negotiators from Hammas.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:11 AM

BTW, I also believe this ceasefire and the pronouncements of "peace is at hand" propaganda you are seeing out of the Middle East this week (Condi's first trip, being used to rub Colin Powell's and his moderates' noses in it) will turn out to have been premature.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 10:27 AM

Jaw-jaw is better than war-war.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM

Guest, don't you believe it. Hammas wants to bide their time, see what they can get. They are also showing to one and all who's boss. Peace is not one of their goals, never said it was, show me where you got that from. The only reason Abbas isn't using violence is because he is too weak to control it.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:51 PM

Don't believe what? Of course Hammas is biding it's time. So is every party to peace talks in the Middle East. That is normal in these sorts of negotiations.

Palestinians voted for peace by voting in Abbas as president. They voted for Hammas to keep Abbas and the moderates honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: mg
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:30 PM

Sometimes news can be good. Constant cynicism is not good and I believe it obstructs the flow of progress, and I think progress is flowing..fitfully of course...We must be eternally vigilant naturally, (trust but tie your camel) but we don't need to automatically assume the worst about everything, do we??? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 05:51 PM

Absolutely not, mary. I agree there is hope for the first time in a long time with the war between Israel and the Palestinians. I believe Abbas will be good for peace negotiations. I believe we will eventually see a ceasefire that holds, but this one may not be it, because Hammas hasn't been brought into the negotiations at this point. That will be all right for a short period of time, but not in the long haul. Any permanent ceasefire, like any permanent peace, will have to include Hammas.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:11 PM

It isn't peace, it's a temporary (and not complete) cessation of hostilities. A big difference. As soon as violence will better serve their ends, they will use it again. Peace has never been part of Hammas's policy or goals. If anyone can show me an official source saying otherwise, I'll be glad to read it.
Abbas is unpopular because he is weak and corrupt.
By bidding their time, I ment aside from waiting to see how many prisoners can be released, they are bidding their time to see how best to increase their power base. As long as Hammas are around, as long the angry, frustrated youth can see that taking up violence is an acceptable course of action, what hope is there for peace? They are not an organization that tolerates rivals. If Hammas is indeed the future, then it's a very bleak one.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

one 'M' in Hamas, folks...

aside from that, the real problem is not getting some big wheels to sign an agreement, but in convincing the young militants (who ignored Arafat) to stop making bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

Well, it's a start...

Now it's up to Isreal to start giving back land it has been taking from Palestinians...

If that occurs, I am hopefull that this can be the beginning of something...

But that is the *first step*...

It's in Isreal's hands now and the world, at least for now, is watchin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

As soon as violence will better serve their ends, they will use it again.   

True enough. "They" being Sharon and Co every bit as much as the people on the other side. It can reasonably be claimed that it was the Intifada that brought him into office and kept him there.

Anytime anyone thinks violence will help achieve some goal, it's easy enough to wind it up again with an assassination here or a mortar there, and set off the cycle of retaliation and counter-retaliation once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:32 PM

Umm, there is no standardised way of spelling Arabic in English. If anything, the H here should be a KH.

I disagree. Surely the first step should be to stop the violence. Since when is a piece of land more important than a life?

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: mg
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:48 PM

Since the dawn of time if it is their life and your land (speaking generically of course). mg

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 10:01 PM

The Palestinians don't have a single reason to keep a ceasefire going without the Israelis giving them something.

Sharon, et al keep saying there can be no talks, until the Palestinians are disarmed. The Israelis know that won't happen, which is why it is their Demand #1. If you can't get past #1, you don't have to worry about a damn thing, and can keep blaming the Palestinians for not coming to the table.

We've seen these power games before in the Middle East, beginning with the first "peace process" that wasn't really a peace process, just like we've seen the sham Northern Ireland "peace process" go down the same road. That is how the repressive state co-opts the counter movements to their repression.

But Hamas has played this as smartly as the ANC did in South Africa. Hamas is going to be the most powerful of the Palestinian movements for decades, because they built social welfare institutions that are functioning under an occupation, during sieges, etc. They are pretty tough hombres--every bit as tough as Sharon, et al. So we'll see. Hammas isn't a party to this ceasefire...whatever it is. The parties didn't even sign an agreement, so I don't know what the fuck this is supposed to be about.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 10:05 PM

And one more thing: Ariel Sharon is no peacemaker. That much the entire world is absolutely clear on.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: DougR
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 12:47 AM

Just pray, if you are the praying type, that it holds.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM

Hamas bullies anyone who may resist them. So alright, they've set up all these infrastructures, etc., but don't forget it's backed up by the end of a gun. Hamas is evil. Yes, evil. There is no other word for an organization that whips up hatred and murders innocents.
When you've seen a bussful of people blown to bits in front of your face, then come talk to me about Hamas and supposedly ridiculous demands such as disarmament.
They have also said on more than one occasion that land for peace is not acceptable. In fact, nothing short of the complete obliteration of Israel.

Abbas is no peacemaker either, never mind the Hamas leadership or Baraguti.

And why is everyone so hung up on the peace PROCCESS anyway? It's as if we've lost the end among all the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 04:55 PM

the key to the whole matter is the Islamic clerics, who 'could' stop the Palestinian attacks tomorrow, if they cared to. It is hard to overstate the degree to which religion is ingrained in the culture, and added to the basic oppression the Palestinians feel at having no jobs, no country and no voice, it's not a big step to say, "sure, I'll die for a cause, especially when I am assured that I'll go straight to paradise, while sending a few of the enemy to Hell!"

Yes, Israel MUST offer something tangible for both the political leaders AND the religious leaders of the Palestinians to suggest no more rock throwing and bombing....the trouble is, Israel has its extremists who'd resent any decent offer to "those evil murderers".

The only sensible solutions would not be accepted by either side....'maybe' one side will back down on some not-so-sensible idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:16 PM

Why should Hamas get any decent offer? The Palestinians are not the same as Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: mg
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:33 PM

We are pouring a whole lot of money into both Israel and Palestine and should have some say in the matter. Hopefully we will have a firm hand on the pursestrings. (of course easing it up as much as possible as quickly as possible). Because they are not known for their oil there except olive oil, but if bad comes to worse I guess we will have to grab that.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:45 PM

Best olives and olive oil in the worl bar none.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 05:59 PM

Hamas bullies anyone who may resist them.

So unlike Sharon in that respect...

People who wantonly kill children are despicable, that's one thing which should be beyond dispute. Whoever those people are.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM

It is significant that this summit was attended by Egypt and Jordan, the 2 countries that have made peace with Israel. That should set an example for Abbas who I feel genuinely wants peace. However, he also has to watch his back to make sure he does not become another Anwar Sadat.

                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 06:48 PM

?? where did I suggest that Hamas was all there was to Palestine, Weasel? or that ANY offer should be made specifically to Hamas?

I merely offered an opinion on conditions that would need to be met before the core members of Hamas would pay attention to any cease fires and agreements.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 06:56 AM

Sharon uses dirty politics, but doesn't threaten to shoot the families of his political opponents. So yes, there is some difference. But he has made a complete turnaround, alienating a significant number of his constituents.

I was getting the feeling that people here were viewing Hamas as such. Don't you get that the only thing the core of Hamas will find acceptable is complete obliteration of Israel? They don't even want land for peace kind of deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:46 AM

"There is no other word for an organization that whips up hatred and murders innocents."

Oh I can think of plenty: Israel. US. Britain.

And that's just for starters.

Sharon is every bit the murderer as any Hamas leader is. Or have you conveniently forgotten how many innocent Palestinian children have been blown to bits by Israeli missiles?

Talk to me after all the men in your house have been kidnapped and murdered before your eyes, your house bulldozed, and your children left homeless and fatherless, and you've no place to go because the Israelis bombed your neighborhood into dirt.

No one says disarmament is a ridiculous proposition. It is just ridiculous to put it as the #1 condition for starting the negotiating a settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:33 AM

Any more ridiculous than releasing the terrorists held in jail?

The difference is that innocents get killed in actions by the IDF, which is still wrong, but Hamas does it deliberately. Only reason missiles are fired in the first place are to stop rocket and bomb factories, but I don't see any such reason for rocketing Sderot.
The IDF usualy exerts as much restraint as is possible in the circumstances, otherwise there would be a whole lot less casualties.
If Hamas and such are disarmed, there would be no reason to go in.

Whipping up hatred, funny, I don't see any days set apart by Israel to riot and throw stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 08:40 AM

Look, I'm all for disarmament, but I doubt the Israelis are willing to give up their weapons, don't you?

It's a pretty good bet the Israelis aren't releasing any of Palestinian prisoners of war--they are releasing common criminals. That isn't the big carrot being dangled. The ability for Palestinians to return to work is.

Oh, restraint is what the IDF shows, is it? Like they showed in their massacres in the Shabra and Shatilla camps? Like the way they have levelled Gaza and parts of the West Bank with aerial bombardments? Like the way they drive Palestinians from their homes and bulldoze them? Forcing Palestinians by the thousands into permanent concentration camps?

That is restraint? If you don't understand why people are willing to die to fight that sort of repression, that hopelessness, then you don't understand much of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 09:25 AM

Excuse me, but this is a bunch of bull. Ramapging throught the Territories, concentration camps? If you mean refugee camps, they are really slum neighbourhoods.
The Hamas should give up their weapons, not the Palestinian Police (army really).
Sabra and Shatila was the Phalangists BTW and much the same was being done by all the factions in Lebanon. Sabra and Shatila are just the most infamous examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:09 PM

On the Jim Lehrer News Hour the other night, two generals being interviewed agreed that the road to peace in Baghdad leads through Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:17 PM

word on the street is that this cease fire feels different than the others. (more hopeful)

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: mg
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:47 PM

Here are my suggestions. None of them are new.

A. Find ways of employing Palestinians in situ. The UN and US are providing huge amounts of money and I hope and am sure that with Arafat gone they can put a few accountants in place to account for the money. There are things that can be done in cramped quarters, and that can benefit refugees the world around.
1)sewing clothes etc. for orphans.
2)making eyeglasses and dentures.
3)assembling disaster type packets.
I am sure there are more suggestions.

B. Training Palestinians as responders to things such as tsunamis, earthquakes etc. Training in construction, demolition (have to think this one through of course) and first aid. They are centrally located for one thing...

C. Insisting through financial pressure if nothing else that they stick to an approved curriculum in schools which does not call for violence, destruction of Israel etc.

D. Insisting that Israel publish maps with borders. Perhaps I am wrong but I don't think they do. It is too open-ended for my taste.

E. Counseling the people that they are not going to get their land back if Palestinian. This is their hope. Not for a Palestinian country as far as I can tell, but their own farms back. In exchange for this huge, heart-breaking reality, there should be empty Palestinian villages and farms that should be put into a land trust and kept as historical villages etc. A middle-east Williamsburg, which everyone would hate and make fun of, and I give it two minutes from 12:48 Pacific US time for hit here, but at least grandparents could bring their grandchildren to it and the children could see what life for their people was like. It is my understanding, which could be wrong, that there are very many villages even today that could be preserved, in Israel proper, as Palestinian historical sites. No permanent residents however.

F. Protect and preserve any farmland belonging to the Palestinians even if in Israel. That cutting down of olive and orange orchards for settlements is wrong and has to stop. I don't know who would get the land but the Palestinians would farm it as they ahve in the past. Maybe an agricultural trust.

Well, that is all for now. Make that 12;51. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:38 PM

Ebbie, those generals are clueless. What's going on in iraq has nothing to do with Palestine, and vice-versa.

Mary,
I don't know as to how it would help peace, but I agree with the heritage sites. A few problems practical problems though. I do believe there are some sites that have small museums. A better idea is to help them put proper infrastructure into the villages. Goes for many in Israel proper, especially the Bedouin villages, whose neglect is mainly due to corruption, both in their local authorities and higher up.
Orange groves are Israeli, they cut down when they happen to be in the outskirts of places like Tel-Aviv and the Centre, which are expanding. Olive groves, which some of the Settlements were cutting down (because of the hostilities, not for settling in, because the Jewish settlers build on hilltops, Palestinians on slopes) ought never to be destroyed, because they do not grow again and it is indispensable for traditional life. Definitely agree with that.
Point C. has been asked for by Israel always. You have first-grade textbooks calling to massacre Jews and drive the Zionists into the sea. These are 7 year olds we are talking about.
Maps in Israel are published with the borders marked. The Gaza Strip and the Territories are marked, not the same as a state, but as seperate entities. If you want the Golan heights off maps, that can't be done, it's official (unlike the Territories).
The idea about the responders is impossible in practice. You need a stable situation, huge funds, trained personnel, headquarters, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: mg
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 07:04 PM

How much would it cost then to train 100 nurses and dog handlers then? They have vocational colleges already. It can be done. I could go there tomorrow and set something up. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 10:35 PM

Whilst you folks were pontificating on 'cease fire', Palestinians have already broken that sham by firing on Jewish Gaza settlements which were already slated for abandonment. Was this one of the shortest cease fires, or just the usual? Is Abbas a victim of Hamas or another Arafat?---John

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:54 AM

It was completely expected, that's what it was. Abbass is a weak leader who can barely control his own government, let alone factions such as Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:15 AM

I think the borders mary was referring to would have been the borders which Israel proposes for the fragmented West Bank.

Here is a map from January 2000, at the time negotiations broke down - this fragmented set of Bantustans is what has been presented as being a generous deal on the part of the Israeli authorities. And for comparison here is a map of the West Bank (and Gaza) without the divisions.

Only if the ceasefire can hold is there any hope of getting some sane way out of this nightmare, in which the Palestinians pay the price for the crimes carried out in Europe against the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 04:51 PM

And why was there no fuss when Jordan and Egypt held it?

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:08 PM

There was a fuss. The king of Jordan (two kings ago, I think), was killed by Palestinians. The Hashemite Jordanians betrayed the Palestinians pretty badly, and the Palestinians are not at all happy about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:39 PM

A big part of the reason that King Abdullah (The current one's great grandfather, they skip Talal when naming them) was assasinated by Palestinians because he was close to signing peace with Israel.
The so-called betrayal, is Black September, when the Jordanian army ruthlessly went against Arafat and the PLO, who were basically trying to take the country over. The PLO ended up in Lebanon, because none of the other countries wanted them (and quite rightly).

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM

No, I'm talking about the agreement that was made with Golda Mier just prior to and during Israel's War of Independence in which the Jordanians agreed to divvy up (with Israel) the part of Palestine that the partition plan had assigned to the Palestinians, and in the process, denying the Palestinians the independent state that they had been promised by the British.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:29 PM

The murder was not as nationalistic as you may think. It was done by the Mufti, a bitter personal enemy of Abdallah, when the latter made a pilgrimage to the al-Aqsa Mosque, the jewel in the Mufti's crown. The Palestinian state would have been ruled by the Mufti, but he was denied that when the King took Jerusalem and the West Bank (the term of course stems from the Jordanian years). The Mufti was not a man to be crossed lightly and he took his revenge.
Anyway, the Palestinians bear as much of the blame for not having a state in '48 as anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

The Palestinians can thank the British (or at least one of them, Sir Herbert Samuel) for Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini being the Mufti, since Samuel is the one who appointed al-Husseini to that position against the wishes of the majority of Palestinians. So I think we can say that pretty much everyone was working against the Palestinians getting an independent state. With that in mind, I think it's not too surprising that they don't have a state.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Weasel Books
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM

Yes I agree with you there. It was the first political appointment of the Mufti, with lot's of wrangling and dirty-dealing, which has caused many of the problems today. He helped Hitler raise Muslim units in the Balakns among other things.
Think Arafat was his nephew, which is another reason why Hussein was non too tolerant in Black September.

Subject: RE: BS: Well,well. Mid East Cease Fire
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:39 AM

So far so good.
Israel to release 500 Palestinian prisoners, restrictions eased on entering from Gaza, security fence to be re routed, and plans to remove Gaza settlers passed by Israeli parliament.
So far so good.