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BS: For Real. I quit

DougR 17 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM
LilyFestre 17 Jun 05 - 05:39 PM
Wolfgang 17 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM
jpk 17 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM
Kim C 17 Jun 05 - 04:14 PM
Clinton Hammond 17 Jun 05 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Ogden Trash 17 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,615 17 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM
Clinton Hammond 17 Jun 05 - 02:24 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 05 - 02:19 PM
dianavan 17 Jun 05 - 02:18 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 05 - 02:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Jun 05 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,615 17 Jun 05 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,From the bleachers 17 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,615 17 Jun 05 - 12:12 PM
GUEST 17 Jun 05 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,615 17 Jun 05 - 11:57 AM
GUEST 17 Jun 05 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,CarolC 17 Jun 05 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,gnu 17 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM
GUEST 17 Jun 05 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,bobad 17 Jun 05 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Arnold Jackson 17 Jun 05 - 09:01 AM
Jeri 17 Jun 05 - 07:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 05 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Jon 17 Jun 05 - 04:27 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 05 - 02:39 AM
GUEST,Little Engine That Coulda But Didna 17 Jun 05 - 12:01 AM
Clinton Hammond 16 Jun 05 - 11:26 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jun 05 - 11:14 PM
Peace 16 Jun 05 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,Paranoid Android 16 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM
Big Mick 16 Jun 05 - 09:51 PM
number 6 16 Jun 05 - 08:05 PM
Clinton Hammond 16 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM
gnu 16 Jun 05 - 07:31 PM
gnu 16 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM
gnu 16 Jun 05 - 07:14 PM
jpk 16 Jun 05 - 07:14 PM
jpk 16 Jun 05 - 07:11 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM
Susu's Hubby 16 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Fed-up Mudcatter 16 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 05 - 06:29 PM
Bill D 16 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 05 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,peanut gallery #4 16 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 08:01 PM

I go with Mick on this one. I'm amazed at some of the things I have read in this thread from people that I have bantered with for years, but always with a civil tone. I share Kim's amazement, too, that this thread has already grown to about half of the posts on Amos's thread on the Bush Administration. His thread began, I believe, in September 2004 and has taken ten months to reach a bit over 1,200 posts. Martin has been gone less than a week, if memory serves me, and this thread has reached over 700.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: LilyFestre
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:39 PM

Guest 11:55,

    I did 3 of the 5 things on your list....I don't really like to hang out in the bars, so that one is out and ummmm...the concert is tomorrow night...........

Let me say that your suggestions beat the heck out of worrying about who said what to who.......

*smirk*

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

615,

do you know the Rumpelstiltskin story? "If no one knows my name they have no power over me". That's magical thinking which was out of time very long ago. Oh, I forgot, since you are '615' now nothing can touch you any more.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: jpk
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

come,come now let it go will ya,lets all go back to talkin,cars or songs or trains or moma rand over by a damn ole pick up truck or what ever.enough is enough and the fun goes out,and evrey one starts geting mad for no real reason,kiss and makeup,lets move on[see them thar moutians over thar im gona clim them thar moutians ya,ll comin]


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:14 PM

"I believe that this vindicates Joe in his assertion that the ONLY way to combat these trolls is by not responding to them."

Which is why this thread now has over 700 posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:13 PM

"is to just walk away"

Where have I said that?!?!?!

LOL

Carol is so fun to wind up.. she gets her knickers all knotted over nothing, and spews and fumes and stamps and stomps... how can you NOT enjoy watching that?!?!?!?


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Ogden Trash
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM

(Looks like troll AND asshole to me.)

Little Willie, dressed in sashes
Fell in the fire and burned to ashes.
Though the room is growing chilly,
I haven't the heart to poke poor Willie.......


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM

Clinton - You've told us over and over again that the best way to handles unpleasent posters is to just walk away - no response whatsoever. If that's true why are you here ? If it's good advise why don't you take it ?


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:24 PM

"It's pretty obvious to me at this point that he is trolling (or maybe he's just an asshole)"

Just relating to you on your own level carol....


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:19 PM

Oops. I didn't see your bit about me thinking I drove "Martin" away, bleachers. No, I did not drive him away. I just was mostly successful in getting him to let up on me. As I said, it was an experiment. I wanted to see if it would work. It did.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:18 PM

Guest, Arnold Jackson - I do not hate Martin or Joe or Max or anyone else. Calling me a monger reveals more about yourself than it does about me.

Joe - I really appreciate the tone of your last post. Thank-you.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:12 PM

The GUEST,CarolC post at 17 Jun 05 - 11:25 AM was from me.

GUEST, bleachers, I don't think it's productive to automatically assume someone is trolling just because they have flamed me a few times. Maybe Clinton is genuinely angry with me. Maybe he's just an asshole. Who knows? But maybe he really is trolling. So I have to give him a chance to show me what he is really doing before I determine that he is trolling. And then once I have done that, I can adjust my posts accordingly. It's pretty obvious to me at this point that he is trolling (or maybe he's just an asshole). Either way, I have been ignoring him since my last post to him on 16 Jun 05 - 04:00 PM (that was yesterday afternoon).


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:11 PM

All of this fighting about fighting.

Joe, why don't you put everyone out of their misery and close this thread?

SRS (brown letters of yesterday, but clearly that message didn't get through to anyone)


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:37 PM

From the Bleachers - She never said that at all. Stop putting words in her mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,From the bleachers
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM

Is this the same CarolC who has been swopping insults with Clinton Hammond that is advocating an adult approach to dealing with trolls? She also seems to imply that it was her standing up to MG that drove him away, what an ego and what a short memory.
FTB


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:12 PM

There is a song on country radio currently - something to the effect of "I'm not as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was".


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:59 AM

Mudcatters cannot have sex, or even think about it because they are way too old and past it....


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,615
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:57 AM

I've been a Mudcatter for a number of years. I'd like to think that I'm well thought of here. But I've recently taken on the name of 615 - last Wednesdays date - so that I can still talk issues in the BS section. If no one knows my gender - they can't make jokes about my genitalia. If they don't know if I have a family - then they can't say anything nasty about them - if they exist.

This is partially due to Martin. But it's also due to the fact that if another Martin comes along that I don't think anything will be done about it. So in the future I'll be "615". If someone has a problem with the ideas I express - that's fine. But I'm not giving anyone - trolls or moderators - the ammunition they need to abuse me.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:55 AM

Just looked in to say hello. Good to see you are all still happy.
Just a thought - why not go and listen to some music, have sex, grab a concert, walk in the park, drink in a bar, have sex, I said sex twice because its my favourite...


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 11:25 AM

This post is from me. I will verify it when I am able to get in through the front door.

In cyber space you can never, ever, ever (to the power n) win or loose a fight. There are no winners or losers, only combatants. The only way to avoid the fight it is to stay out. In real life it is easy win or loose a fight. If a bully hits you and you cry he has won. If a bully tries to hit you and you break his nose you have won. Simple.

The point is not winning or losing, Dave. On the internet, it's all about behavior. People can substantially effect and/or change the nature of a website by controling behavior. A troll seeks to effect behavior for a small reward... the sense of power he or she feels as a result of making someone respond emotionally.

With a bully, the issue is a much larger one. Especially a bully like "Martin Gibson". With "Martin", the reward was a much bigger one than with trolls. He got his reward from the feeling of power he got from subtantially changing the whole tone and nature of the Mudcat. Rather than allow the Mudcat to be what it is naturally, on its own, he stated many times his intention to make it over into something he wanted it to be. And he stated many times that he intended to be the driving force and major power figure within the Mudcat. Most of his behaviors supported those declarations.

The object is to find ways to reduce and/or eliminate the behavior. Egging "Martin" on increased his destructive behaviors. Trolling for "Martin" increased his behaviors. Acting hurt by what he said increased his behaviors.

The only thing that could decrease his destructive behaviors was to respond in ways that reduced his ability to feel powerful in the Mudcat. When I did that, it worked.

The reason it was important from my perspective to want his behavior reduced and/or eliminated is because there are times and situations when allowing a bully like "Martin" to abuse people has the potential to be just as devasataing to someone in their 3D life as if the bully hit them over the head with a tire iron. I saw such behavior from "Martin" on several occasions (toward other people, not myself), and that was what made me decide to stand up to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM

Oops... for those of you who are not psychics, that was me at 10:32AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:32 AM

I'm psychotic. Will that do? Or, maybe there's a psychic in the Café who could become a clone and preclude having to delete posts altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,bobad
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 10:17 AM

Is there a psychologist in the house ?

Perhaps some group psychotherapy can get this issue resolved so that everyone can get on with their lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Arnold Jackson
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 09:01 AM

there's currently a HUGE amoung of hate just begging for a focus. It's only a matter of time before the next wave hits.

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Willis, I mean Jeri?

As this thread shows, the "next wave" was unleashed when the king troller left. The latent hatred within Mudcat was repressed when Martin was here. With no more Martin, Carol 'n' Jack 'n' Diana 'n' Ron, etc. began to show themselves for the mongers they are.

Sure Joe has made some mistakes, he's not God, not even the pope, but look at the hatred he's been up against, and I'm not talking about Martin.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 07:03 AM

Ron, you sound like you're making excsuses as to why you did your part to keep the guy going. "He shouldn't have been allowed to continue to force me to post." "Somebody would have replied - it might as well have been me." It didn't work when we were kids, and it doesn't sound logical now. Blaming Max for "not making the bad man go away" is sort of amusing in that it's trying to blame Max for what everyone, including you, did or said in reaction.

When you and others tell him what he should have done, think up a plan in which that's possible and doesn't cause different and probably worse things. I have no doubt I could find my way around a ban. Of course, I'd be more difficult to recognize. If I had a magic button, I would have permanently banned Martin Gibson, but I also would have bounced a bunch of people for at least 48 hours and not let them back in without a cookie. Be glad we don't do that stuff, or at least I don't. Rules of engagement are for everybody, not just the catalyst.

Please - take responsibility for your own part. If you choose to get involved in a fight and start throwing your own punches, you shouldn't ask for a grown-up to break it up when you and 10 other people start getting verbally thrashed by a single 'bully'. As Joe mentioned, it's hard enough to deal with one miscreant and impossible to deal with 11, and as for deleting Martin's posts - there are just too many replies, many of which quote him.

Basically, if people want this sort of thing, it's going to happen again. It's going to happen again because there's a lot of support for trolls here and there's currently a HUGE amoung of hate just begging for a focus. It's only a matter of time before the next wave hits.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 05:21 AM

I was going to start another thread on the following but I think it would turn into a troll fest so I decided to keep all the (bad) eggs in one basket.:-)

I think some people are getting very confused here. No names no pack drill. I agree wholeheartedly with the people saying 'ignore them and they will go away'. I also agree wholeheartedly with the people saying fight them. How do I reconcile these too seemingly dissimilar points I hear you ask. Easy. In cyber space ignore them. In real life fight them. I know the difference between the two and I am not particulary bright, so surely anyone can differentiate. No? OK - Let me explain.

In cyber space you can never, ever, ever (to the power n) win or loose a fight. There are no winners or losers, only combatants. The only way to avoid the fight it is to stay out. In real life it is easy win or loose a fight. If a bully hits you and you cry he has won. If a bully tries to hit you and you break his nose you have won. Simple.

Perhaps it boils down to the question, do we believe the sticks and stones adage or the mighty pen one? Well, if in real life there is someone coming down the road with a stout cudgel in one direction and someone brandishing a Bic coming the other way I will take my chances with the pen. If, on the other hand, someone wants to cave my skull in by likening me to a piece of anatomy I think I would remain quite unscathed if I chose to ignore him;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 04:27 AM

I've read a few times that MG should have been banned. Although Joe Offer has given no indication he can't and I'm aware that he can take actions such as temporarily blocking a user, I do wonder whether he has the authority to go as far as to "permanently" ban a user from the site or remove membership.

Sites work differently but I know at the Annexe and folkinfo where an admin can do anything the moderating controls allow, eg. permission is not needed to delete, one would not ban a member - although there may be consultation (in fact there almost certainly would be between all admins), ultimately that final decision would be Pip's alone (or mine alone when they were my sites). Personaly I would be surprised to learn the situation is particularly different here - I'd have guessed Max (who himself can not have been unaware of MG regradless of whether Joe reported the matter or not) would have to be involved in this particular action.

I could be completely wrong but I suspect some of Joe's tangle here stems from this.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 02:39 AM

It remained important to rebuff Gobson, so that those he wrongly vilified might know that Gobson's behaviour was unacceptable.

I never saw a response to Gobson that fell outside the range (in my view) of permissible response.

Alleging that those attacking Gobson were antisemites or stalkers only tended to appear to support Gobson's own apparent view that any criticism (on whatever ground) of him or Israel or any Jew was antisemitism, and that Gobson was largely free from any effective control whereas those opposed to him were required to fight with thier hands tied behind their back.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Little Engine That Coulda But Didna
Date: 17 Jun 05 - 12:01 AM

Put it this way, if MG tuned in to this thread, would he be laughing his fool head off?

Methinks he answer to that is:
aye, verily!


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:26 PM

Except that if they banned him, they'd have to ban others, and then they'd have to ban everybody... ANd Mudcat'd be a pretty happy, but really quiet place...


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 11:14 PM

Joe--

In general I agree trolls should be ignored.   I have told several Guests that I don't shadow-box. And that was the end of that.

But...a Mudcat member is not a troll (to be sung to the tune of "A Secretary Is Not A Toy").

And needs different treatment.

"Gibson" should have been banned from Mudcat--early--for the reasons I cited yesterday.. Why should anybody who has done any of the 3, much less all 3, be allowed to ever say anything else on Mudcat--certainly as a member?

When somebody says--and proves over and over--that he has no intention of contributing, just sabotaging, there's no reason he should be free to post any message at all--banning is the only way.

This, as I said, would have eliminated completely the thorny "censorship" question.

The moderator has to take some responsibility for keeping MC a civilized place, which it mostly is. Banning is sometimes necessary. With "Gibson", censorship was needless agony for you.

Why are you so stubborn as to insist that we all just ignore "Gibson?" Didn't you read what I said--we have drop-in Guests all the time, who can, will, and in some cases like to, keep the pot boiling. "Gibson" would have always had a sparring partner-or 3. Didn't you realize that by allowing him free rein, you were discouraging the participation of both members and non-combative non-members?

Maybe if he were banned he would come back--but only to fade into the general miasma of anonymous Guests-- which are much easier to ignore.

He was the opposite of a Mudcat member. Read what he said to Don Firth, to various women, and his wish for the death of the child of a Mudcat member---what more did he have to say to be banned?


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 10:25 PM

Carol and I have had a few go-arounds. Joe and I have had a few go-arounds. Carol has at times torn a strip off my ass. So has Joe. I love both of them. There is nothing good or bad but that thinking makes it so--or whatever the guy said.

Folks, we gotta stop thinking about this stuff. People gotta make peace. Really.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM

"And he lost the thread and his mind got cluttered
And his words just rolled off down the gutter".(Guy Clark)

Did Martin die and send his ghost to haunt this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 09:51 PM

This thread is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. I see nice folks that I have met, and sang with, acting like fools. I see the person who is supposed to be the "voice of sanity" acting foolish and looking foolish. Makes me very sad.

I would gladly take Martin back, as disgusting and vile as he was, if it meant the lot of you would quit acting like a bunch of childish morons.

I still love this place. But I am very sad at what you are turning it into.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 08:05 PM

CarolC and Joe. Take some of the good advice that has been given and forget all of this. It's a shame to see 2 good peeple like you guys going at each other. It's not worth the battle,it has become meaningless, it's taken up valuable disk space, it's all history now and it's it's starting to get to others here. The good others such as gnu.

gnu, go and have a couple of alpines buddy. Cool off.

Man, I can't even crack any more jokes about this.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 08:02 PM

"Then when she leaves, we all shake our head and say...poor, poor woman."

Now if only Carol would leave so we could get about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 08:00 PM

If one person can post so many times with sentiments that' the rules' say are not allowed, and all the clones are unable to keep up with it, then either the rules need changing or the poster needs banning.

Why have rules that are unenforcable?


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:31 PM

May I be so bold as to recap the major points? No, well, I will anyway.

Should all of MG's derogatory posts be deleted? Yes. Why? So that it is clearly shown that this type of behaviour is not welcome at the Café.

Can all of MG's derogatory posts be deleted? No so easy. Why? Because it would take a month of Sundays.

Can some of MG's posts be deleted? Not so easy. Why? Because it would take a month of Sundays. If anyone has a solution as to which posts should be deleted, please post it... and, can you include the post in which he called me racist for no reason? And, what about the post where he...

Should Joe apologize for saying certain 'Cats "squealed like stuck pigs"? Yes. Why? Because. It's not nice.

Should a "certain" (NOT CC) 'Cat apologize to Joe for misquoting him? Yes. Why? Because. It's not nice. AND, IT IS LIBEL (don't get upset with me; misquotation does not compare with simile in a court of law).

You say it's not that simple? BULLSHIT. It IS that simple.

Now, I shall repair to repast and leave you kind folks to sort thins out.

gnight


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:18 PM

Yeah, that's right. I am not going to let this pass. Joe and CC are friends of mine. I'll defend both of them until they work this out... and, they will.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:14 PM

Hey Hub, you been here TWO months and you think I or anyone else gives one sweet fuck what you think? CC has more street cred around here than you will ever have. Little old lady?... too bad your little old lady didn't slap you when your manners or smarts weren't up to snuff. You might have turned out better.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:14 PM

damn broke my word of honor to myself and posted here when i swore not to


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 07:11 PM

close this tread and let it rest;an if in som 1 wants to run to a paper hanger over nottin let um' just wastin good? money on no goodnic lawyer types    PLEASE LET IT DIE QUIETLY


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

FOR CRISSAKE, LET IT UP!!


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:48 PM

Hubster, you are both a troll and a bully. So what you have said is no surprise to me.

GUEST, big letters, I would like to know who you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:42 PM

"Thanks Joe, for yet again, taking the time, to yet again explain, what appears to be an intelligent response to a very tired issue now. If I were you though I would save my energy for something important. Like walking your Dog if you have one.
There is NOTHING in this thread anymore except one woman's Ego trip and her need for attention. If anyone was ever like Martin Gibson's Twin here we have it!"


That's probably one of the most accurate things that I've seen posted about CarolC.

Joe, he's right. You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. We all know that you tried to treat everyone fairly. IN MY FOUR MONTHS OF POSTING HERE (for you CarolC) I've yet to see where there was a double standard applied.

CarolC reminds me of the little old lady that lives down the street. When she comes over, we all pretend to listen intently to whatever it is she decides to ramble on or piss and moan about that particular day. Then when she leaves, we all shake our head and say...poor, poor woman. Bless her heart.




Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,Fed-up Mudcatter
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM

Give it a rest, guys. This thread represents hundreds of hours of all of you arguing and tearing each other up. The golem is gone. Let the stink of his passing clear.

Carol, stop talking. NOW. Not one more word! You've become your own worst enemy.

Joe, stop talking. It doesn't make things any better.

All of you, go do something constructive for a while. Create something. Go talk to a friend. Sing a song, play an instrument. Do something nice for someone else.

Thank you.


    I think you're right. I'm sorry I got suckered into this.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:29 PM

I keep thinking I'll post my clear, coherent thoughts and resolve all this rancor and sooth everyone

That's ok, Bill. I did it for you. Have nice lie down.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM

I keep thinking I'll post my clear, coherent thoughts and resolve all this rancor and sooth everyone---and then I think, "yeah, Bill...sure...you've tried that before.", and I go lie down.

There is this phenomenon of verbally "painting one's self into a corner" until there's no way to back down and just **stop**.....

lordy, lordy..............


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 06:12 PM

I think you are still trying make me responsible for the behavior of others, Joe. And I don't accept that my behavior here is what is causing your headaches. It certanly isn't what caused the headache of yours known as "Martin Gibson". I ignored him for a very long time, but his bullying didn't stop. "Martin Gibson" stated many times that his entire reason for being here was to break the rules of the Mudcat. This he did quite successfully, without any help from me.

The reason ignoring trolls is the best way to deal with them is because ignoring them deprives them of any reinforcement of the behavior. Trolls are out to get an emotional response from their targets. If the target does not respond emotionally, the troll will lose interest (eventually).

But with bullies, the reinforcements are not the same as with trolls. In the case of "Martin Gibson", the reinforcement came from the behind-the-scenes subculture that he had created, in which he would get virtual "high-fives" for getting in a good one at someone else' expense. And bullies even get reinforcement from being ignored, because they take a non-response as a sign of their victory over the person they are bullying.

In my case, as long as I ignored "Martin's" abuse, it continued and even got worse. At first, I took him to be someone who needed to be "won over" (rather than as a troll), so I tried to respond with kindness to his abuse whenever possible. This didn't produce any results. After a while, I decided that he was a troll, and I didn't respond to his abuse. This didn't work because he was not a troll.

Eventually, after seeing the kinds of things he was saying to people like Art Theime, Wesley S, and Don Firth, I decided to try an experiment. I decided to stand up to him. The thing that tells me I was right about him being a bully and not a troll is that standing up to him did work. Once I started doing that, his attacks on me lessened and I was able to get him to leave me alone.

I agree that there are ways to stand up to a bully like that that are counterproductive. For instance, I think the many "Martin" bashing threads were counterproductive. I did not participate in those. I also think the threads that were for the purpose of trolling for "Martin" were counterproductve. I did not participate in those. And trolling for "Martin" within other kinds of threads was counterproductive. I did not do that. I only responded to his attacks on me (and a few times his attacks on others), and I did it in such a way as to take the fun out of what he was doing, rather than give him satisfaction. And it worked.

I will continue to try to avoid feeding trolls (as I have been doing). This is sometimes made difficult by the fact that it is not always easy to determine whether or not a person is trolling. Clinton, for instance, in this thread. Sometimes I test people a few times as a way of finding out if they are trolling. And if I find that they are, I ignore them (sometimes after saying one or two things that have the effect of neutralizing their attack). And after I do that, they leave me alone.

But telling me (or anyone else) that I must take whatever bullies dish out, even though what they are doing is against the policies of the Mudcat, and not doing anything yourself to enforce the rules against the bullies, is, to be frank, very unfair, and not workable. Whether or not I ever post another thing in the Mudcat, you will still have just as many headaches as you have had lately as long as this kind of double standard is being applied.

I also know that I have repeatedly asked you not to fight, and you have continued to do so.

You have not repeatedly asked me not to fight.

Exactly what is it you want me to apologize for?

I wanted you to apologise for mischaracterizing my behavior. I think you are still mischaracterizing my behavior, but I note that you have implied some kind of apology in there somewhere, and to the extent that you have done that, I accept it.


and CarolC is rapidly losing the respect and credibility she may have thought she at some point had.

This point is completely lost on me Peanut, because I never expected that I had any to begin with.


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Subject: RE: BS: For Real. I quit
From: GUEST,peanut gallery #4
Date: 16 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

Look up almost any thread about the Middle East in the last 5 years. No matter what it starts out being about, it always ends up being about CarolC.


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