BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?

Subject: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I live on an Estate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 05:23 AM

Inspired by the Chav thread. I wondered....

Estate-folk! They live on welfare, they breed like rabbits, (not good specimen rabbits either) they live on the fuel of drugs, they never work, they litter always, they destroy anything nice on their estates, (such as bus shelters) they throw needles to the ground, they drink themselves into an orgy every evening to complete their wasteful unproductive days, they look like CHAVS, they smell, they are mostly illiterate, they steal, they engage in crime on an hourly basis,they hand around the estate shopping centres with nothing better to do but drink themselves silly...but mostly, mostly, they like the way they LIVE?

Question: DO YOU AGREE?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:16 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:34 AM

That's one hell of a generalisation GUEST, and most likely insupportable.

You say you live on an estate. Do you fit the profile you gave of estate dwellers? My guess is No!

Look around and you'll find plenty of others on your estate who are not from that mould either.

A small number of indolent, violent, noisy people can establish a presence out of all proportion to their numbers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I live on an estate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:45 AM

Yes i live on an estate, but i wasn't born into this type of area.

Yes there are a minority who don't fit that mould, but if we constantly make excuses for the trash on these estates because of the few good apples then no-one will ever act to sort these social misfits.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:56 AM

I would be offended if I thought you had any sense or understanding. I was born in a slum. When I moved, as a child to an estate we thought it was the greatest thing in the world. Ok, times have changed, but I still live on an estate albeit in a different town. The vast majority are honest hardworking people, as am I. The peercentage who take hard drugs and throw needles about is very small and a fair number of the drug takers are middle class dropouts who seem to think, like you, that it doesn't matter what they do when they come down here to buy their drugs as we're only schemies and our surroundings don't matter. They can't take their needles hame in case Mummy finds them. Since you don't like the people take your prejudices and hateful attitude back to where you feel comfortable. Or are you the kind of scum that has nowhere else to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM

Estate
Its the majority that don't fit your description NOT the minority. You seem to forget about people who live in better areas, there is also a minority there who steal, fiddle insurance claims, do work without paying tax (cash in hand) etc etc……it is the minority in both cases that cause concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I live on an esate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:05 AM

Did it never cross your mind that your estate may not be half as bad as the pit that i live in?

The lads and lasses around here are not middle-class dropouts, they were born into this way of life, which leads me to somewhat symapathize, but on the other hand you lose sympathy when they smash your car because they think by having a car you are trying to be 'better' than them, and when they beat an old woman to death because she told them to 'f*** off' after she caught them breaking into her shed, and when you hear constant stories of incest, you really do lose sympathy.

I'm not hateful, but i feel i may be justified in my attitude!

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,i live on an estate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:08 AM

Yes i agree, but as you just illustrated, in better areas the types of crime differ, insurance claims, tax fraud, etc, which does harm directly others.

of course better areas have their share of crime, but nothing on the scale of estate life. You could blame it on poverty, but there are plenty of jobs these lads of age late teens early 20's to 30 could get. Laziness

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:14 AM

Estate
Where is the estate you are talking about? and what is its name?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,Estate Dweller
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM

So you don't see yourself like the rest of us white trash, then?

Estate dwellers are Estate dwellers normally because of their economic station in life.

You got loads of money and connections, an that, then?

Move to the suburbs then

where the corner shop owners live...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I liv e on an estate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:43 AM

Just because you live on an estate doesn't mean you have to live like animals.

I don't have a problem with 'estate dwellers' I have a problem with estate scumbags!

Blaming poverty for their lack of decency is no excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM

Guest on crappy estate I do sympathise, but it is not the case on all estates. But the one in my town is as you describe. The police patrol in pairs. The postmen deliver in pairs. The cabs won't pick up from there. The delivery takeaawys won't deliver there. The mail order companies won't do business with people who live there. The health visitors visit in pairs.

Having that particular estate as your address marks you with many companies as not worth dealing with. I don't know the solution sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:36 AM

This is more BNP propoganda, please close this thread.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:46 AM

Agreed close the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:50 AM

Where is your estate please estate?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,live on an estate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:52 AM

BNP?

Godammit, i am NOT BNP, and i take offence at that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:58 AM

If you don't like it, move. Or better yet, find others like yourself and clean up your neighborhood.

(Now, there's the remark that got Al Capp into trouble back in the late 1960s.)

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM

I recognise your description of SOME of the estates in Greater Manchester, but even in the worst these "feral people" still make up a minority of the people that live there.
Where I live in Eccles we have a real problem with these people, particularly at the weekends, as they come into our town having forced their local pubs to shut down through bad behaviour.
Having pissed on their own chips they wish to do the same to ours.
ASBO's have improved the situation a bit and dress codes in the pubs have helped too.
I read that in one of the big shopping centres that band "hoodies" (referred to locally as scrotes) that shoplifting went down 50% and turnover went up 20%. So in this case you can judge a book by it's cover.
For those of you fortunate enough not to have met these people, the description in the first post is I'm afraid all to accurate. Imagine mind of a toddler in the body of adult male (most are men) and you get an idea of what their like.
Whilst their behaviour angers me, and decent folks need protection from them, I do not think that they could be described as happy; their attitude is auto distructive as well as dangerous to others.
I my self had to take action a couple of weeks ago to prevent a completely innocent person from being severely beaten (possibly killed) by 2 of these people wearing the usual uniform, pissed and stoned.

TTFN

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM

I take it that an estate, in Britain, is what we call a housing project in the U.S.? I was attracted to this thread because, from the subject line, I thought it might be about people with inherited wealth, or perhaps about real-estate brokers.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: inanimate inaminute :||

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

BNP? No idea what you are surmising John, but the majority of the estate dwellers on our problem estate are white. Assuming that it is always black youths who are the problem is a pretty sad mind set.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:55 AM

Where is the estate?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:07 PM

If schools were allowed to discipline pupils effectively, and pupils were kept in school until such times as they could read write count and communicate verbally in a coherent fashion, then we would stop providing the fuel that feeds the smouldering heap of dung that is in the corner of many of today's council estates. The schools turn out too large a percentage of sociopaths who know their rights but not their responsibilities. Parents too have their input to this sorry mess, and should be made legally responsible for their children's actions until such time as said child reaches the age of majority. This so called minority is increasing, and the streets in some areas appear to be full of 13 and 14 year old kids with the word fuck as the major part of their vocabulary, who when asked to behave or desist from destroying other peoples property, tell you they can do what they like as at their age neither you nor anybody else can touch them. As long as the idols of today's kids are no brainers with a modicum of talent for football, singing {sic}, or some other such accident of time and place, there will be no respect for education or erudition, and therefore no incentive to learn at school.
It is unfair however to typify all housing estates in this fashion, or in so doing to imply that all hooligans come from these estates, which is what Estate Dweller appears to do.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:25 PM

Where is the Estate?, the Estates are in every town in the UK and Ireland, frequented by young scum who are in control, the police are useless and in most cases refuse to act.

I asked the question before on this Site, do the people on the European mainland have the same problem in their towns?.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:12 PM

Any development of more than 1 street by the same developer is an "estate" and that covers most the housing in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM

This is really worrying. I joined in with the Chav thread just for fun and am now feeling more than a bit ashamed of myself. If we made these comments about another race or adherents of a particular religion then this would be clearly bigotry. As it is, we're (and I've done it myself but have resolved to stop it) writing off an entire social group. Like Guest, I live in an area with a high ratio of Chav-dom ... and there are quite a few of the characters Guest describes. But there are also a lot of perfectly decent people who just happen to wear Burberry and masses of cheap gold.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:14 PM

Somehow, I thought the wheat embargo and "black 47" cleaned up the mess.

Sorry to read, a portion continued to breed.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:14 PM

Whats a Chav?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:21 PM

Time to reconsider Jonathon Swift's MODEST PROPOSAL????

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It is frightening to visualize your description and the effects of small island kingdoms, closed communities, and centuries of inbreeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:38 PM

Estates.

Funny, but Gargoyle and I think alike on some things. Swift also came to my mind as I read the first jaded post.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM

Come back Herod all is forgiven!
G. ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: sapper82
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

For non-UK readers, the Estates being referred to are the large scale Council Estates that are in most towns in the UK.
Built by Local Councils from the '20s onwards to provide the Working Man and his family with decent housing, they are also known as Social Housing Estates.
Whilst most residents of these places are decent, hard working people, there does tend to be more than their share of "problem families" who cause great distress to their neighbours.
The effect of the children of such families on schools and the education of other children can be little short of catastrophic, often acting as a nucleus for other children to join in with disruption. These problems are getting worse.
Because of these problems such estates have, in recent decades, become synominous with the decline in behaviour standards of the whole country.
It is a social problem the UK suffers from that proves well the adage that "The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions."

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

Housing projects in the U.S. have the same reputation. A few bad apples make the reputation for the entire population. Decentralized subsidized housing is being promoted now, giving low-income people "normal" neighborhoods to live in, with a predicted outcome of better living conditions. Thing is, "normal" neighborhoods have their own troublesome representatives (like the convicted drug dealer who lives three doors up from us and who has odd traffic coming to the house for brief visits at all hours). It's all a crap shoot, but avoiding that kind of density is better for everyone.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Charmion
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 01:02 PM

Edmund and I live "at the butt end of Saint Patrick Street", a Lower Town address that, 60 years ago when my mother's family lived near here, meant dire poverty, unemployment, shiftlessness, alcoholism and every other imaginable social misery. Today it is a speedily gentrifying street of freehold and condominium townhouses right next to a large tract of what we Canadians call social housing (i.e., an "estate") occupied mostly by recent immigrants. Somali and Haitian families are in the majority, but there are also plenty of folks from the Middle East and southeast Asia. It's nice here. Quiet, pretty, neighbourly, calm.

So what happened to Lower Town? In short, an urban clearance program 50 years ago that bulldozed the houses that lacked plumbing and central heating, followed by a 30-year economic boom that transformed Ottawa's lumpen proletariat into civil servants and service industry workers, and Ottawa's downtown tenements into bijou townhouses for the prosperous (like Edmund and me) and the aforementioned social housing. Where tarpaper shacks and cesspits used to be the rule, we now have rows of little brick three-bedroom houses, each with a front lawn and a tree in front, and a little back yard with a garden shed and a clothesline.

On my way home from work in the evening I often see families taking the air in front of their houses, grown-ups chatting and having a smoke while the littlest kids stagger around in the patchy grass. The chip wagon operated by a local Vietnamese family does a roaring trade, and the streets resound with the thwacking of basketballs and sneakered feet. Teenagers in hiphop gear lounge artistically, and bands of veiled girls wander about whispering in each other's ears. On Fridays, Jewish families stroll to the Orthodox synagogue on Chapel Street (no kidding).

Social programs that neo-conservatives describe as "federal meddling" and "nanny statism" have made Canada one of the most socially mobile places in the world. Today's refugee living on welfare in social housing rides the No 14 bus to the adult high school to learn English, and looks forward to the day in 20 years when his children are in university, if he has to drive a taxi 20 hours a day to get them there. Social mobility works the other way, too, and the people most likely to feel disenfranchised are the native-born lower middle-class and working poor, especially groups who used to find it easy to make a living but are now in trouble.

But when I walk through Lower Town, I see determination and hope at work. It's nice here.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

So all UK catters live in nice rural single plot houses?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:18 AM

Well, do the the towns on the European mainland have the same problems with their unruly youth, as there is no response to my question, I assume that the people on the mainland are much more civilised.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Jeanie
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:59 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with Giok's comments (12.07 PM yesterday) about schooling and discipline.

I have spent the past 6 months working as a supply (temporary) teacher in a junior school on such an estate, and it has been an extremely stressful and heartbreaking experience. It is one of the reasons I haven't been visting/posting here as much: I have simply been too exhausted.

In this school (and I have no doubt there are many others like it), the home lives of a large number of the children are unbelievably heartbreaking: ever-changing "fathers", parents who are alcoholics and/or on drugs, parents who don't have enough food in the house, so the children arrive at school starving hungry, parents who are in and out of prison or are violent and abusive, parents who are barely older than being children themselves.

The school had been on "special measures", meaning that it had been threatened with closure because of its poor performance, but had since been inspected and allowed to stay open. It is a very stressful environment with, needless to say, a quick turn-over of staff. This, of course, compounds the problem because, for a lot of the children, school is their only chance of finding any kind of routine and stability in their lives.

What saddened me greatly was the poor quality of teaching these children were being given. Their deputy headteacher had moved to another post, and I was brought in for 3 days a week (to replace his 5 days). His Year 4 class was being taught together with the Year 3 class, by the existing Year 3 teacher, plus a couple of classroom assistants. As the supply teacher, I had to follow the "plans" (such as they were) that the Year 3 teacher gave me. I never knew until I got in each day whether I would be with Year 3 or Year 4, and the "plans" were told to me on the spot, at the start of each morning or afternoon. This teacher was living not just day to day, but hour by hour, deciding things off the top of her head and just thinking of things to get through the day. The numeracy "plan" generally consisted of my being told to "get them to choose 4 digits at random, then another 4 digits and add them together". Most of the time they were given colouring-in to do, in some kind or other. For history, they cut out pictures from a worksheet, coloured them in, and stuck them in so-called "Humanities Folders." The educational content of these children's school days was minimal, I would say.

What saddened me most of all was the attitude towards discipline. The school was following the advice of a Behaviour Team who had come into the school. The greatest punishment possible was for a child to be moved temporarily to another classroom. I was pulled up by the headteacher for reprimanding children for saying unkind things to each other, and for raising my voice to insist on silence when explaining things to them. "We have other ways of dealing with behaviour here", she said.

When I told her I thought that without reprimand for unkindness etc. they would not get on well in the world and teachers owed it to them to show a different way of behaving, her reply was: "They will get on very well in their world." That attitude on the part of a headteacher responsible for these children saddened me greatly - but it says it all. No wonder these problems are persisting and growing in society.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: sapper82
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM

Jeanie, I did one term in High View, Chaddesden, Derby; and two terms in Bemrose also in Derby so you don't have to tell me about crap schools!
The problem is that a lot still blame the teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

Jeanie - Sounds like a nightmare to me. Where is the district management? Where are the trustees? Where is social services? What is especially frightening is the response that says they will get along in THEIR world.

When will people begin to understand the their world is our world. If these kids are today's behavioural problems, what do they think will become of them in the future? It behooves all of society to provide an ounce of prevention. These problems do not go away, they only become bigger.

Its time to start paying attention to the schooling of all children.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

The problem Dianavan is that we don't have the same system of management/trustees as other places, we do have school governers who are drawn from local parents. The thing is that in reality it is often difficult to find people to fill the posts, and often those that they do find have a personal agenda. The present UK government is fixated on centralisation, and only pays lip service to local democracy. Over here the Town Hall administration doesn't change with the government, and because of that the ruling party want to take decisions about education and other social engineering, away from local authorities and keep them under the control of their own grand plan. The primary instrument for expressing dis-satisfaction with national governments is local elections, where people feel safe in lodging a protest vote. This results in many local authorities being in direct opposition politically, to the government of the day. So the natural impulse is to deprive these authorities of any meaningful power. Therefore you get a 'National Plan' which pays no attention to local needs or requirements. The problem with the word, and the practice of democracy, is that it betrays its' Greek roots by having bugger all to do with the people it purports to represent.
Cynical me??
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:34 PM

I know i am going to sound hugely unpopular here, but why do so many people from sink estates look...how shall i put it...physically ill?

You know, the ones with chins stuck out, bulging foreheads, teeth missing, disproportionate arms and legs to their body?

Is there a reason? Someone once told me that imbreeding is rife on some estates? Is this true?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

If anyone want's to see the 'Estate scum' refered to go back to this thread.

:D

Incidentaly, I was brought up in a terraced 'estate' in the 50's. Moved to various council estates until I wed in the 70's. Moved to a small row. Then to the edge of another estate. Then to a main road with no community. Hated it. Back in the midst of one of the biggest estates in Salford now (Claremont). Everything between 2 up 2 down rented to half million pound houses on our 'estate'. I love it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 05:20 AM

In Britain, Maggie Thatcher (hoick phtoooey) introduced the 'Right to Buy' - council tennants could buy their homes rather than rent them. Consequently, the houses with multiple bedrooms, bathrooms and indoor lavatories (the council house I lived in until 1982 still had an outside toilet), had gardens and were well built, were sold off. They tended to be in the nicer areas - places where there were schools, shops, a good social infrastructure and a "community". They were nice places to live and people wanted to stay there.

This left the less salubrious areas, the smaller houses, the high rise flats and the badly designed estates for the councils to house those for whom buying was not an option. Many estates were designed with the object of getting as many people into as small a space as possible, to generate greater income through rents. They forgot about simple amenities. An example can be seen in Glasgow. They cleared one of the slum tenements and moved the inhabitants to a block of flats on the outskirts of Glasgow. The flats were brand new and had lovely views of the city and the docks. What they didn't have were any shops, no school, no bus service, no medical care or banks or all the other facilities that people need just to live - they were all nearly a mile away, on the opposite side of a busy dual carriage way that had no footbridge, underpass or pedestrian crossing. When isolated like that, it's no wonder people want to lash out.

To qualify for a council house you need to fit several criteria, of which, being on benefit and having children were two. Thus you get council owned estates populated by low or no income families, youngsters who have been in council foster care until 16, teenagers who have been thrown out of homes and those who choose to get pregnant soley so they can get a council flat away from their homes (and yes, it does happen). You end up with a fairly small section of population for whom work has never been available. To put them all into the same estate is just putting all the rotten eggs into one basket. If you have no money to care for yourself, you are certainly not going to waste any on a building that someone else has a duty of care to look after.

Consequently, you've got a culture of not caring, which extends to the surrounding area and pretty soon, you've got a no-go area where not even DHL will go (Canning Town, London - DHL will no longer deliver packages there, they're fed up with being mugged and having their vans stolen).

The look of ill health goes with lack of proper diet, little excercise and a fairly depressing, hopeless future, all associated with low or no wage families.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

I know i am going to sound hugely unpopular here, but why do so many people from sink estates look...how shall i put it...physically ill?

You know, the ones with chins stuck out, bulging foreheads, teeth missing, disproportionate arms and legs to their body?

Is there a reason? Someone once told me that imbreeding is rife on some estates? Is this true?

If you live in an unhealthy place, you're liable to be unhealthy. If you don't have access to good information about diet, and access to good food and good health services, you're going to stay unhealthy. As long as Social Darwinists keep spreading rumors about inbreeding, you're always going to have an extra stigma to get beyond when trying to get along in or break out of a place like that.

Don't pinch your nose too tightly, Guest, you might cut off the circulation to your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:44 PM

The backwoods communities of the USA Southern Appalacian Mountains give brillant testimony to the statement of SRS above. Three/Four generations removed from "The New Deal" and govt programs, suppliments, and "education" however, the devastating effects are still writhing in the gene-pool.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 11:46 PM

Giok - It doesn't sound too different than B.C.

Federal Govt. sends a sum of money to the Province.

Curriculum and the School Act is set by the Provincial Government and teachers bargaining rights are legislated by the Province. The Province then sends money to the local school boards which are comprised of locally elected trustees.

The trustees must then decide priorities based on the money they have been given and distribute it to the schools. Each trustee is assigned several schools. Parents who are dissatisfied, can contact their trustee.

Parents are invited to participate in their schools Parent Advisory Committee and together with teachers and administrators, annual goals are established.

And then, of course, there are the various unions and professional bodies (certification and conduct.)

Is it any wonder that hardly any money trickles down to the student?

There is political conflict all along the way. Students and teachers bear the brunt of the squabbles.

In addition, parents are encourage to be fundraisers to make up for the shortfall in govt money (taxes). This results in inequality as parents from more affluent neighborhoods are more capable of donating to student fundraisers.

Luckily, we have a very good school board (trustees) at the present moment. Unluckily, we have a Provincial government that thinks that privatization is the answer. They also have no respect for teachers. I don't know the answer but I am retiring in a couple of years and I'm actually considering running for trustee. At least I will be able to give an educational rationale for my decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:37 AM

Too many stereotypes and dismissive statements here for my taste, Gargoyle. Too much lumping, not enough sorting.

But then, George W. Bush got elected in 2004. Lots of folks in the U.S. showed a major deficiency in education with that move (no critical thinking skills).

Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:42 AM

Here's a quotation from above about a school on an estate.

"Their deputy headteacher had moved to another post, and I was brought in for 3 days a week (to replace his 5 days). His Year 4 class was being taught together with the Year 3 class, by the existing Year 3 teacher, plus a couple of classroom assistants."

The children at this school know that other kids don't get treated like this. When the parents send the message that "Drugs are more important than you," and the government sends the message "You are a second-rate person," how do you expect the kids to grow up?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM

I would like to reinforce what SRS says above, about nutrition and opportunity.

When I was in Germany (military posting) I had a particular friend (I'll call him X) who joined the Army at 18 so he could send half his pay home to his mother and siblings. His mother raised four children on "relief" (as they said those days) and, once they were all in school, the wages of a supermarket cashier. His father, never much of a provider, abandoned the family while his mother was still in hospital after giving birth to the youngest.

X weighed about five pounds when he was born, and had rickets as a child. At the age of 23, when I met him, he had the bowed legs and "chicken chest" typical of those who survive childhood malnutrition. He also had a curious malformation of the upper jaw and nose, sort of a sunken or "pushed in" effect that interfered with breathing, prevented his jaws from closing correctly, and caused his adult teeth to grow in higgledy-piggledy. His speech was slurred and difficult to understand, he tended to breathe through his mouth, and he always had trouble chewing.

Fortunately, X is an intelligent, brave and honourable person. His mother did a sterling job of raising him.

When he was about 35, the Army made a massive investment in my friend, then a master corporal in the infantry, and sent him to one of the best facial surgeons in North America. It was he who told Tim why his body is configured as it is -- that his bones indicated that his mother's diet was very poor, and that he rarely ate a square meal during the first 10 years of his life.

After four major operations and five years in braces, X looked remarkably like his two sons, handsome lads who, until then, were thought to take after their mother ...

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:46 AM

I've played extensively in Europe and mostly to young people and I have never encountered anything like the behaviour I've seen from some youngsters over here.
One problem is the puritanical attitude to alcohol in the UK. Drinking is much more a part of social and family life in Europe and youngsters learn how to drink sensibly.
Another problem is that many Europeans seem to know who they are and feel a sense of belonging to there societies. In the UK Thatcher and other forces have been pushing the "no such thing as society" message and many now believe they are independent of any social unit bigger than their immediate family and friends. Where I live a lot of people define themselves by what they are not (sheep shagging Welsh, Haggis eating Scots, Cheese eating surrender Monkey French, and a lot more offensive racial stereotypes).
The UK is mostly ghettoised into NIMBY semidetached suburbia and badly designed Council sink Estates terrorized by a minority.
Trying to keep optimistic in modern Britain is difficult but this is my land and I'm proud to be from this beautiful and Ancient Island that has contributed so much to world culture in the past and may do again.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Jeanie
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM

Precisely, Leeneia. It is heartbreaking. I don't think I have ever heard anything that has angered me so much for a long time as when that headteacher said to me: "They will get on well in their world."

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:04 PM

I grew up in the 50s and 60s in Eastern England. My brothers and I grew up in a decent suburb, in a rented house, but most of my mates lived on a Council estate a few miles away. We all went to a Secondary Modern school, where it was made very plain to us that we were just 'factory fodder' and shouldn't get ideas above our station. Nevertheless, we all seem to have done OK and many of us went on to get degrees and decent jobs.
In the interim there appear to have been a multitude of radical and catastrophic changes in British society. Where do you start? The replacement of responsibilities and obligations by 'rights', a million and one inept and poorly thought through social engineering 'experiments' covering everything from teaching to town planning, Thatcherism and all the myriad evils stemming from it (there's still time to indict that wretched woman and put her on trial - why isn't someone doing it?!), the ultimate triumph of capitalism, drugs, egotistical and elitist 'professionals' who know nothing about, and appear to have no interest in, their chosen 'professions', the incompetence and impotence of the Police, and returning to those contemptible 'professionals' (may the useless, smug bastards burn in Hell!)the wholesale replacement of thought and competence by political correctness - it's much more important that they appear to occupy the moral high ground than actually do anything useful.
And, at the end of the day, everyone is responsible for their actions (there are probably some exceptions - OK, most people are responsible for their actions!) and should be made to take those reponsibilities seriously or suffer Society's wrath - no excuses!!

DB

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Poverty will forever be villified by the rich and poor alike.
Yet many beautiful people rise to articulate their humble beginings and the abuse they encountered on the way up.
I should include myself among them.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I live on an estate
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM

Sill sage you dissaprove of social darwinism spreading 'rumours' about imbreeding, but you are wrong i av overheard quite a few incidences of imbreeding on the estate where i live.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM

Near me is an estate which is the classical tipping ground for those with no chance to become house-owning, Volvo-owning, blessed-with-2.4-children professional clones.

To be fair, there is the expected percentage of drug addicts, drunks, criminals of one sort or another (usually violent drunks or thieving addicts) and so on. However, there are as many marooned on the estate through personal tragedy.

At one time, I was nearly romantically involved with a girl on the estate. Her five children were a drawback. The children had four fathers. Before anyone condemns the girl as shiftless and amoral, I must point out that she has as many brain cells as I have, but far more problems in her upbringing. She was fostered through several cold institutions and then foster parents who mustered the correct number of points on the check sheet to become "carers", but appear to have lavished no more true affection on their foster daughter than they would on self-assembly furniture. As a result, the unfortunate girl fell prey to four plausible, predatory and worthless husbands or boyfriends.

The children by the way, are all of average intelligence or better. Apart from a tendency to swear constantly and meaninglessly, they seem to have few personal conflicts.

I know of several women in something like the same state of affairs. A very large proportion were raised in institutions such as Convent-sponsored orphanages, or council-run foster homes. Perhaps these institutions cannot be blamed for the tragedy or failings which cost these girls their natural families, but none of them seem to have replaced parental affection with anything worthwhile.

No doubt there are plenty of boys with the same upbringing, and whose lack of self-worth manifests itself in various anti-social ways.

While there are many people on estates I would not care to associate with (or with whom I would have no shared interests whatever), there are plenty of smug and selfish middle-class parasites whom I despise more, and have less in common.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

she sounds wonderful. real classy girl

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:43 AM

What do you consider "inbreeding?" Simply coming from the same place and chosing partners there isn't it. Are you suggesting that with the density of people there that there aren't enough un-related partners to go around and that incest is rampant? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM

Guest, I live on an estate - What does social darwinism have to say about the royal family then?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

Interbreeding is as old as mankind.... it's only since the 'rules' were written out in the Bible that people made an effort not to sleep with their sister's husband's aunty's son. Mind you, that doesn't stop some people....

It's been legal to marry your cousin for over a century; it was made legal to marry your husband's brother after World War I decimated the male population and 'breeding males' were low in numbers. It was made legal to marry your wifes' sister before WWI but I can't find the reference.

Consider the estate to be a village - put that village on the top of a moor, in a deep rural valley... you've got to breed "o'er the midden" if you want to have any chance of procreation at all.

(Better marry o'er the midden than o'er the moor = marry someone close, over the muck heap/farmyard rather than someone from far away.)

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:10 PM

Right then - it has been asked again and again, so here it is yet another time - GUEST,I live on an estate - WHICH estate? Where? Can one make claims about "your estate may not be as bad as mine" without identifying where that is? Even a general area...

Now that you've got all the liberal folks worked up to talk about things many won't have experienced first hand - without *some* hard information, I'd agree with an earlier assertion, with a twist...

BNP? Neo-Thatcherite Conservative (Maggie wasn't quite conservative enough!)?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I live on an Estate
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM

So what is the answer to the estate problem? it is ok saying drag them all down as they are a product of a social experiment gone wrong, but you can't surely put these people anywhere!

You put these people into decent schools, they will likely cause upset for others, you put these families into decent areas, they will cause decrease in house prices and cause increase in crime and other social hazards.

I know these are uncomfortable truths, and i am not saying it is all their fault for them been they way they are, so what is the answer? You increase funding for their schools? They burn them down anyway! You give them better nutritious food at schools? They simply go to the local takeaway and get chips! You give the parents food vouchers for better foods, then there is no incentive for those parents to go out and work for their food, whilst the rest of us work hard to eat and live. It seems no matter what you give them 'people', they destroy!

So...what is the answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM

"You put these people into decent schools, they will likely cause upset for others, you put these families into decent areas, they will cause decrease in house prices and cause increase in crime and other social hazards."

These are the same arguments put forth when Seattle was forced to integrate the Black population. None of it proved to be true.

Vancouver has social housing that requires tennants to have a mixed income. Most development is required to have a certain percentage of low income suites available.

Your fears are unfounded. Poverty is not contagious and by providing alternatives, many have had the opportunity to raise their children in a world of opportunities and positive role models. In a ghetto situation, crime breeds crime and poverty breeds poverty and the cycle continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

GUEST,I live on an Estate
"You put these people into decent schools, they will likely cause upset for others,"

That is where the abandonment of ANY serious attempt to keep discipline in schools has caused the most problems.
For these children Education should be a route out of the sink estates, but teachers are no longer allowed to actually teach in so many of the sink schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM

GUEST, do you by any chance live on the Nephelokokkugia estate?





Go on. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: wildlone
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

I used to live on an "estate".It was a small [250 properties] estate in a small country town in Dorset. I lived in a two bedroom flat with my mother.The flats were built by the council for older people not as housing for familys.The council sold the properties to a housing association. As the residents of the flats died or moved out familys were moved in. A family from Bristol were moved in above us.
They used to have people from Bristol staying [as many as 8] playing music at all hours. A drug dealer was moved in next door. A girl was moved in opposite with a young son within two years she had another two children by different men.
In every case they were evicted from their previous home for being a problem.
I was once talking to a policeman in the town and mentioned that there was drug dealing taking place in a local car park and was told "there is no drug problems in Sherborne".
We moved to a small village in Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:35 PM

I lived in subsidized housing with my two children and obtained my degree with a government loan. I had no other 'way out'. I have reaped some of the benefits (I now own a home) and have job security. The benefits to my children are obvious. My son is a successful contractor and my daughter will soon be an architect.

Unless you give people hope, there is no way to break the cycle.

Some will benefit, some will not. Is that a reason to withold hope from those that wish for a better life?

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: GUEST,I live on an Esate
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 03:31 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Estate Scum - Tolerate?
From: Shakey
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 05:32 AM

dianavan 20 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM

As much as I'm wary of social engineering I have to agree with you here.